On 5/5/2022 6:32 PM, Ken Olson wrote:

<snip>

> My truck has the dents to prove it has been off-road.

What "Andy Burnelli" doesn't understand is the difference between an
off-road capable SUV, and what are commonly referred to as MTVs (Mall
Terrain Vehicles).

MTVs are built on a car chassis, not a truck chassis. They don't have
high clearance. Often they are AWD not 4WD and that's a difference that
many drivers don't understand until they're stuck in the snow! An MTV is
unlikely to have an LSD (Limited Slip Differential) or the option for a
locking differential so the wheels with no traction will spin while the
wheels that have traction get no power at all.

If you want to talk percentages, you have to only include the drivers
that have actually spent the money for an off-road capable vehicle. A
good starting point is to look at the vehicles listed here:
<https://www.motorbiscuit.com/which-new-trucks-and-suvs-come-with-locking-differentials/>.
A Honda Pilot or a Subaru Outback or a Toyota Highlander, is not an
off-road vehicle whether or not it is AWD.

On 5/4/2022 3:39, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>>
>> Tempting for the dirt floor side; I'll have to consider that.
>
> Assuming safety concerns are met (it has to be built well), it's one way to
> get around the height restriction you mentioned.

That, or in a few years when the original roofing shingles need to be
replaced, part could be extended higher for a lift (depending on the
cost of lumber).

> The theory is explained in the articles I previously cited on the topic.
> HINT: R-> R-> R-> R (rim -> red -> radial -> runout)
>
> Here's the _simplest_ practical flow-chart I can find for you:
> *How to balance a tire properly: use the yellow and red dots*
> <https://www.rtsauto.com/how-to-balance-a-tire-properly-use-the-yellow-and-red-dots/>

Many thanks!

>> I rarely wear out brakes, even cheep steel fiber pads, because I'm
>> just light on them. I'm used to a spongey petal and some-what
>> unreliable brakes.
>
> That's not the brake pads most likely - but the fluid, or leaks.

Typically; or a failing master cylinder, or a bad wheel cylinder, etc.

> The way I buy brake pads is by the spec. If the vehicle manufacturer
> specifies FF pads, I don't buy less than that.
>
> Many inexpensive pads nowadays are FF, GG, and even HH.

I'll keep an eye out for that next time ordering on Rock Auto.

> Most people don't know what I'm about to tell you...
> What happens (based on most theories I've seen) is there's a chemical
> reaction that occurs when you brake where if you _hold_ down the pedal
> _after_ stopping, then a tiny bit of pad is deposited (as a footprint) onto
> the hot rotor.

Interesting to know. That's hard to avoid when driving an automatic,
but I instinctively pop a manual into neutral and let off the brake
unless I'm sitting on a hill.

On 5/4/2022 4:30, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>>
>> Actually, that's a pretty regular thing for me. I've still got the '89
>> Olds up on jacks because the lower ball joints both need done.
>
> Luckily, ball joints don't need much by way of tools, other than a pickle
> fork and a good mallet (and maybe an old-time grease gun for older cars).

Ball joints just came in. The project will commence when the weather is
better.

>> Those little buggers aren't cheap. I did the outer tie rod ends when I
>> bought it a couple of years ago (I don't keep many cars this long),
>> but the inner ends are also shot.
>
> Tie rod ends also aren't too bad - just be sure to mark things first.
> The idler arm and pitman arm may require a gear puller though.

Isn't there a special tool for inner tie rod ends? The last time that I
had to have those done, I took it to a shop (that does work cheap for
me). Of course, not as cheap as one could do at home.

>> One of the Geo Metros is also parked for _really_ bad ball joints and
>> tie rod ends. Of course, I'm a special case, since some of my cars
>> have north of 300K miles. There's a good chance that no one else has
>> replaced these parts before. When the steering gets sketchy, it's not
>> worth it to me to push my luck.
>
> The problem with doing that "stuff" is the alignment needs to be done.
>
> At your young age, all the home alignment tools are well worth buying.
> a. You need a wheel jig and camber gauge
> b. It's helpful to have wheel plates (greased linoleum works)
> c. It's nice to have toe plates too
>
> Always remember you adjust in _this_ order:
> Caster -> Camber -> Toe

I've done outer tie rod ends at home a few times, counted the turns, and
counted when turning new ones on. Typically, I head to a shop afterward
that does an alignment for $50. I'll have to look into that for my garage.

> I have a kit still, with a timing light, dwell meter, flat feeler gauges
> (for cams), wire gauges (for plugs), vacuum gauge, hose plugs, hose clamps,
> spark plug timing dial gauge, etc.
> Haven't opened it in years.
> When you have an older motorcycle (which I had at your age), you learn how
> to set timing by the dial gauge you screw into the spark plug hole
> (measuring mm BTDC) and the buzzer you set up across the points.

I don't do motorcycles (no interest in riding them), but I need most of
the tools that you have listed above. Is your kit for sale? ;)

> The spec on that tire is usually a dozen parts, price always being last:
> 1. 235 mm wide
> 2. 75% as tall as it is wide (i.e., 176.25 mm tall)
> 3. Radial
> 4. 15 inch
> 5. Load index 105 (*wow* 2,039 pounds per tire!!!!!!!)
> 6. Speed S (112mph)
> 7. Traction: B, 8. Treadwear: 320, 9. Temperature: B
> 10. Tread pattern (e.g., M&S)
> 11. Age (within six years)
> 12. Price... (price is last but still important - see below)
>
> Personally I strive for an A (or AA) in traction, where the rest I just try
> to match or exceed OEM specs. A treadwear of 320 isn't all that good BTW.

I take it that you have to get a feel for looking at the specs before
digging into it. Thanks for the list.

> Oh. You haul heavy metal? Well then, the load index does matter then, as
> two thousand pounds per tire is double what many tires normally handle.

Yes, that's usually an important factor for me. I've hauled over a ton
of scrap in the bed of my truck before. It's not something I do often
anymore, but when I have a truck, I really use a truck; so that has to
be an option.

> You're paying for stiff sidewalls, but one thing you need to keep in mind
> that if you're comparing a 235/75 with a 215/75, given they have the same
> aspect ratio, the 235 mm wide tire will sit 15 mm taller than will the 215
> mm wide tire, which will affect your ride, particularly on bumpy roads and
> with a load.

That's a consideration in a car, but for me, less of a concern in a
truck. I expect a truck to ride more rough. It's a backup vehicle for
me, or to haul stuff.

> Of the half dozen things all people should do at home, a major engine
> overhaul is one of those I haven't done yet.
>
> 1. Minor repairs (e.g., cooling system overhaul)
> 2. Alignment (caster, camber, toe)
> 3. Transmission (e.g., replace clutch)
> 4. Painting (e.g., change color)
> 5. Mounting & balancing wheels/tires
> 6. Major engine overhaul

Since I have the truck, rather than letting it rot, I think it's a
project for this summer. I don't have much to loose; the old beater is
for scrap if I don't fix it. I have a Felpro head gasket and new head
bolts that I bought a year ago. A straight 6 is a pretty simple engine.
I just need to rope my friend into doing it (and debate if I want to
tow it several blocks up hill to the new garage first).

On 5/5/2022 18:47, Lewis wrote:
> In message<t4u99g$dso$1@dont-email.me> Alan<nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-05-04 4:47 a.m., Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>> MOST vehicle *never* travel on gravel roads
>>>
>> I beg to differ.
>>
>> I live a very urban life in my BMW...
>> ...and yet I still occasionally encounter gravel roads.
>
> that's nice for you, it is still not the usual. And a whole lot of
> people will simply NOT drive on gravel or dirt roads at all.
>
> Again, just because one person does something, it does not make it
> usual.

I don't see how anyone could entirely avoid gravel roads. A friend
might have a gravel drive way to pull into; if nothing else. I drive
urban and rural, and many side streets that sometimes have to be used if
a road is blocked, are at least partially gravel roads.

On 7/5/2022 1:50 pm, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 5/5/2022 18:47, Lewis wrote:
>> In message<t4u99g$dso$1@dont-email.me>  Alan<nuh-uh@nope.com>  wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-04 4:47 a.m., Lewis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> MOST vehicle *never* travel on gravel roads
>>>>
>>> I beg to differ.
>>>
>>> I live a very urban life in my BMW...
>>> ...and yet I still occasionally encounter gravel roads.
>>
>> that's nice for you, it is still not the usual. And a whole lot of
>> people will simply NOT drive on gravel or dirt roads at all.
>>
>> Again, just because one person does something, it does not make it
>> usual.
>
> I don't see how anyone could entirely avoid gravel roads.  A friend
> might have a gravel drive way to pull into; if nothing else.  I drive
> urban and rural, and many side streets that sometimes have to be used if
> a road is blocked, are at least partially gravel roads.

You must live in a distinctly rural area. Where I live (country city) I
need never see a gravel road I am forced to negotiate.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Michael Trew wrote:

> Ball joints just came in. The project will commence when the weather is
> better.

Good luck. As I recall, removal is the hard part. That's why the pickle
fork is used. You put it horizontally to the connection and bang away until
it just pops free. In _my_ experience, it pops after just a few bangs.

Much like a U-Joint pops out of a driveshaft after only a few hits.

> Isn't there a special tool for inner tie rod ends? The last time that I
> had to have those done, I took it to a shop (that does work cheap for
> me). Of course, not as cheap as one could do at home.

As I recall the _only_ difference in the tool is the pickle fork is
smaller. But I haven't done it in years. Luckily, as with ball joints, the
removal is the hard part where you're at least not worried about damaging
them.

When putting them back together, you just screw them in but there the issue
is to match the steering wheel. You spend more time on the steering wheel
than anything else when dealing with tie rod ends.

You want to notice the center position of the steering wheel first.
Then you want to lock it into place (they sell a tool for that).

When you put things back, you want the steering wheel to be in the same
position when driving straight. Otherwise you'll be driven nuts.

>> Always remember you adjust in _this_ order:
>> Caster -> Camber -> Toe
>
> I've done outer tie rod ends at home a few times, counted the turns, and
> counted when turning new ones on. Typically, I head to a shop afterward
> that does an alignment for $50. I'll have to look into that for my garage.

The only thing tie rods affect, as I recall, is toe, which is easy to do at
home. It's camber and caster that are harder to do at home without special
tools. But toe can be done easily at home to the desired specifications.

At your age, and with the number of cars you buy, you would benefit greatly
from doing your own caster, camber and toe. If a car has been in an
accident, then you need the four wheel alignment but if all you're doing is
setting it up, then you do it in this order. Caster -> Camber -> Toe.

Caster is a function of camber though, so all you need to measure is
camber. Toe is simply a linear measurement so it's the easiest to measure.

>> I have a kit still, with a timing light, dwell meter, flat feeler gauges
>> (for cams), wire gauges (for plugs), vacuum gauge, hose plugs, hose clamps,
>> spark plug timing dial gauge, etc.
>> Haven't opened it in years.
>> When you have an older motorcycle (which I had at your age), you learn how
>> to set timing by the dial gauge you screw into the spark plug hole
>> (measuring mm BTDC) and the buzzer you set up across the points.
>
> I don't do motorcycles (no interest in riding them), but I need most of
> the tools that you have listed above. Is your kit for sale? ;)

I've never sold anything in my life, least of all my tools.
They're for my kids (or grandkids) to use if they ever need them.
They'll probably be sold then though. :)

>> Personally I strive for an A (or AA) in traction, where the rest I just try
>> to match or exceed OEM specs. A treadwear of 320 isn't all that good BTW.
>
> I take it that you have to get a feel for looking at the specs before
> digging into it. Thanks for the list.

Basically a tire is a commodity, despite marketing wanting you to think
it's not. Also you can't get a bad (aka unsafe) tire in the USA. Now I know
there are plenty of people who can bring up "Firestone" stuff, but I'm
talking in general.

What you do is start with the OEM spec and then you buy a tire that meets
or exceeds those OEM specs. The ones that matter, of course, are fitment,
and then load range and then speed rating. The rest are less important.

My main point is price is meaningless.
If anyone ever tells you "you get what you pay for", then just walk away
and don't tell that person that they're an idiot because they're already
too stupid to get it.

Most people do NOT know how to buy stuff.
Yet everyone wants a "good/better/best" number line.

Fun fact: Marketing people have figured that out already.

So they always give you a good/better/best L/XL/GXL number line of
bullshit. Usually the L has basic markings, the XL slightly better, but the
GXL... oh that GXL... it has GOLD plated markings. Surely it's better.

The bullshit good/better/best number line for batteries and tires most
often handed to people is the treadwear warranty - which is purely
meaningless bullshit for a huge number of reasons I won't delve into.

Anyone who buys anything by warranty is a fool.
Let's leave it at that.

The point is you buy by the specs.
The _last_ spec you look at, is the price.

>> Oh. You haul heavy metal? Well then, the load index does matter then, as
>> two thousand pounds per tire is double what many tires normally handle.
>
> Yes, that's usually an important factor for me. I've hauled over a ton
> of scrap in the bed of my truck before. It's not something I do often
> anymore, but when I have a truck, I really use a truck; so that has to
> be an option.

Well, the nice thing about a well-built tire is that it wears more safely
over time, in that the sidewalls are really sturdy and can handle abuse.

As I said, you never buy a tire with a lower load index than the OEM tire.

>> You're paying for stiff sidewalls, but one thing you need to keep in mind
>> that if you're comparing a 235/75 with a 215/75, given they have the same
>> aspect ratio, the 235 mm wide tire will sit 15 mm taller than will the 215
>> mm wide tire, which will affect your ride, particularly on bumpy roads and
>> with a load.
>
> That's a consideration in a car, but for me, less of a concern in a
> truck. I expect a truck to ride more rough. It's a backup vehicle for
> me, or to haul stuff.

I understand. A lot of people think you can just change the aspect ratio,
and you can, but it affects other things as it's always a tradeoff.

Even just changing the width of the tread affects other handling factors.

>> Of the half dozen things all people should do at home, a major engine
>> overhaul is one of those I haven't done yet.
>>
>> 1. Minor repairs (e.g., cooling system overhaul)
>> 2. Alignment (caster, camber, toe)
>> 3. Transmission (e.g., replace clutch)
>> 4. Painting (e.g., change color)
>> 5. Mounting & balancing wheels/tires
>> 6. Major engine overhaul
>
> Since I have the truck, rather than letting it rot, I think it's a
> project for this summer. I don't have much to loose; the old beater is
> for scrap if I don't fix it. I have a Felpro head gasket and new head
> bolts that I bought a year ago. A straight 6 is a pretty simple engine.
> I just need to rope my friend into doing it (and debate if I want to
> tow it several blocks up hill to the new garage first).

Good luck. A major engine overhaul is the only one of the half dozen major
tasks every man should do on a car before he dies that I listed above.

I hope you get a chance to do them all where the fact you're young means
you can leverage all that learning to the future more so than I will be
able to do as I'm in my waning years and you're just starting out.
--
Usenet is an assemblage of purposefully helpful people teaching each other.

On 5/7/2022 0:48, Xeno wrote:
> On 7/5/2022 1:50 pm, Michael Trew wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how anyone could entirely avoid gravel roads. A friend
>> might have a gravel drive way to pull into; if nothing else. I drive
>> urban and rural, and many side streets that sometimes have to be used
>> if a road is blocked, are at least partially gravel roads.
>
> You must live in a distinctly rural area. Where I live (country city) I
> need never see a gravel road I am forced to negotiate.

I don't work in a rural area, but the commute is rural. Even living in
Pittsburgh, PA, I recall a few roads that weren't fully paved. Of
course, I have no experience with areas like LA.

Michael Trew wrote:

>> Many inexpensive pads nowadays are FF, GG, and even HH.
>
> I'll keep an eye out for that next time ordering on Rock Auto.

The bad news is that they won't say and the bad news also is that if you
call them up they won't even know what you're talking about - but - the
good news is it's printed on every pad ever sold in the United States.

So when I call for pads, if they're in stock, I ask the guy to go out there
and read me the numbers. It's a long list of numbers but the letters A thru
about H will show up twice (usually the same but not always) for the cold
and hot friction ratings.

I find it amusing when I ask people how they choose brake pads and they
tell me all sorts of bullshit but they don't know this basic spec.

And yet it's the most important spec for a brake pad, it's friction rating.

Fun facts:
1. Marketing has figured out that people are stupid
2. Marketing has figured out that people want a number line
3. So Marketing gives people a (bullshit) number line

What marketing gives them is bullshit good/better/best number lines like
price & wear warranties which have nothing whatsoever to do with the specs
of the pad itself.

Or worse, meaningless good/better/best terms like
a. Non Asbestos pads
b. Metallic pads
c. Ceramic pads

As I said, they can put a spec of anything in there and call it that.
If you don't believe me, call the marketing guys and ask them like I did.

>> Most people don't know what I'm about to tell you...
>> What happens (based on most theories I've seen) is there's a chemical
>> reaction that occurs when you brake where if you _hold_ down the pedal
>> _after_ stopping, then a tiny bit of pad is deposited (as a footprint) onto
>> the hot rotor.
>
> Interesting to know. That's hard to avoid when driving an automatic,
> but I instinctively pop a manual into neutral and let off the brake
> unless I'm sitting on a hill.

Actually whether or not it's an automatic or manual doesn't make much (if
any) of a difference in my experience, although I know exactly what you
mean in that an automatic will creep forward after a stop.

But what you do is compensate for that creep by slowing the car down and
stopping well before you would otherwise do.

Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and HOLDING
them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the light, you
apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and then you stop the
vehicle well before the light. Then you can slowly creep forward where the
main goal is to NOT keep the pad pressed close to the hot rotor at the
exact last point but to move it along. You can shift the automatic into
neutral if you want (I do that often) but it's not even required if there
is enough of a flat or upward slope to prevent the automatic from creeping.

You can also apply the parking brake, but that has its issues also.

But the main point is to be COGNIZANT that it's your own foot that is
causing what most people think is brake rotor WARP.

Fun fact: What percentage of people actually _measured_ the rotor warp
after vehemently claiming that their rotors warped?

Hint: Zero.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to help others & to learn from them.

On 5/7/2022 1:22, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>
>> Ball joints just came in. The project will commence when the weather
>> is better.
>
> Good luck. As I recall, removal is the hard part. That's why the pickle
> fork is used. You put it horizontally to the connection and bang away until
> it just pops free. In _my_ experience, it pops after just a few bangs.
> Much like a U-Joint pops out of a driveshaft after only a few hits.

Fortunately, those are already disassembled (at least one side). I've
dealt with more difficult, but these were replaced with too-cheap parts
in the near past, which might be why they came apart easier. I got more
expensive ball joints this time around.

>> Isn't there a special tool for inner tie rod ends? The last time that
>> I had to have those done, I took it to a shop (that does work cheap
>> for me). Of course, not as cheap as one could do at home.
>
> As I recall the _only_ difference in the tool is the pickle fork is
> smaller. But I haven't done it in years. Luckily, as with ball joints, the
> removal is the hard part where you're at least not worried about damaging
> them.

I'll have to take a look in there when I have it jacked up; maybe I can
get those done at the same time.

> When putting them back together, you just screw them in but there the issue
> is to match the steering wheel. You spend more time on the steering wheel
> than anything else when dealing with tie rod ends.
>
> You want to notice the center position of the steering wheel first.
> Then you want to lock it into place (they sell a tool for that).

Most (if not all) cars post 1968 have locking steering wheels when the
key is taken out.

> I've never sold anything in my life, least of all my tools. They're for
> my kids (or grandkids) to use if they ever need them.
> They'll probably be sold then though. :)

I do lots of swap meets, sales, etc. I get almost everything used. Old
tools (especially hand tools) are usually better made than new stuff, in
my opinion -- not to mention far more affordable.

On 5/6/2022 10:34 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 5/7/2022 0:48, Xeno wrote:
>> On 7/5/2022 1:50 pm, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't see how anyone could entirely avoid gravel roads.  A friend
>>> might have a gravel drive way to pull into; if nothing else.  I drive
>>> urban and rural, and many side streets that sometimes have to be used
>>> if a road is blocked, are at least partially gravel roads.
>>
>> You must live in a distinctly rural area. Where I live (country city) I
>> need never see a gravel road I am forced to negotiate.
>
> I don't work in a rural area, but the commute is rural.  Even living in
> Pittsburgh, PA, I recall a few roads that weren't fully paved.  Of
> course, I have no experience with areas like LA.

Not sure what country Xeno lives in, but in the U.S. gravel roads are
still quite common, even short stretches in urban areas, especially on
roads not maintained by the city or county. Sometimes the entity that
controls the unpaved road is able to get enough money to pave it, but
often there are reasons to not pave it.

In the U.S., a lot of unpaved roads are in county, state, and national
parks, and are necessary to use to get to the destination.

In some cases an unpaved road is a much shorter route than the paved
alternative, but sometimes the gravel roads are gated and only property
owners along the road are allowed access, even when it's not a private
road. We have one such road near me
<https://alpharoaming.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/img_4459.jpg>, this is
maybe ten minutes away from the heart of Silicon Valley.

Unpaved roads can vary greatly in quality. In most cases, no off-road
vehicle with high clearance is necessary, in some cases it's an absolute
requirement. For example, in Death Valley National Park, in good weather
most vehicles would have no problem on Titus Canyon Road unless they
have abnormally low clearance. But to drive Lippincot Mine Road pretty
much requires 4WD and high clearance <https://youtu.be/M07eLuZbL_M>.

In article <t560sh$tg0$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> >> You must live in a distinctly rural area. Where I live (country city) I
> >> need never see a gravel road I am forced to negotiate.
> >
> > I don't work in a rural area, but the commute is rural.  Even living in
> > Pittsburgh, PA, I recall a few roads that weren't fully paved.  Of
> > course, I have no experience with areas like LA.
>
> Not sure what country Xeno lives in, but in the U.S. gravel roads are
> still quite common, even short stretches in urban areas, especially on
> roads not maintained by the city or county.

they are not common, especially in urban areas, where it's extremely
rare to find a gravel road.

it would have to be a *very* rural area for it to be 'quite common'.

On 5/7/2022 1:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
> But what you do is compensate for that creep by slowing the car down and
> stopping well before you would otherwise do.
>
> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.

I always brake this way either way. It wigs me out when I ride with
people who slow down quickly. Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and pulse
the brakes when slowing down.

Michael Trew wrote:

>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>
> I always brake this way either way. It wigs me out when I ride with
> people who slow down quickly. Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and pulse
> the brakes when slowing down.

Good. Almost nobody knows that the key is to brake harder earlier, rather
than braking harder later, and, most importantly, NOT leaving your foot on
the pedal at the stop.

I've never met a person in my life who was adamant that his rotors warped
who had ever measured the warp they're so very certain happened, that
didn't.

It's one more case of how shockingly stupid most people are.

On 2022-05-06 8:33 p.m., Michael Trew wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 3:39, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> Michael Trew wrote:
>>>
>>> Tempting for the dirt floor side; I'll have to consider that.
>>
>> Assuming safety concerns are met (it has to be built well), it's one
>> way to
>> get around the height restriction you mentioned.
>
> That, or in a few years when the original roofing shingles need to be
> replaced, part could be extended higher for a lift (depending on the
> cost of lumber).
>
>> The theory is explained in the articles I previously cited on the topic.
>> HINT: R-> R-> R-> R (rim -> red -> radial -> runout)
>>
>> Here's the _simplest_ practical flow-chart I can find for you:
>> *How to balance a tire properly: use the yellow and red dots*
>> <https://www.rtsauto.com/how-to-balance-a-tire-properly-use-the-yellow-and-red-dots/>
>>
>
> Many thanks!
>
>>> I rarely wear out brakes, even cheep steel fiber pads, because I'm
>>> just light on them. I'm used to a spongey petal and some-what
>>> unreliable brakes.
>>
>> That's not the brake pads most likely - but the fluid, or leaks.
>
> Typically; or a failing master cylinder, or a bad wheel cylinder, etc.
>
>> The way I buy brake pads is by the spec. If the vehicle manufacturer
>> specifies FF pads, I don't buy less than that.
>>
>> Many inexpensive pads nowadays are FF, GG, and even HH.
>
> I'll keep an eye out for that next time ordering on Rock Auto.
>
>> Most people don't know what I'm about to tell you...
>> What happens (based on most theories I've seen) is there's a chemical
>> reaction that occurs when you brake where if you _hold_ down the pedal
>> _after_ stopping, then a tiny bit of pad is deposited (as a footprint)
>> onto
>> the hot rotor.
>
> Interesting to know.  That's hard to avoid when driving an automatic,
> but I instinctively pop a manual into neutral and let off the brake
> unless I'm sitting on a hill.

Interesting but wrong.

Do the math on a single stop from highway speed.

My 2012 BMW 135i MSport Edition weights 4,255lbs, so stopping it from
60mph must dissipate 694,273 Joules.

We'll assume that all the energy of the stop remains in the rotors
themselves, and that BMW has done it's job properly and that therefore
the front and rear brake rotors are proportional in mass to the energy
each must dissipate.

So we can take the total mass of the rotors, the heat capacity of steel
and calculate the change in temperature.

The mass of those rotors is 34.47kg

The specific heat of steel is about 420 joules per kilogram per degree

420J/kg*c

So with 34.47kg, we get 14,477.4 J per degree C temperature change, and
dividing the 694,273 joules we've got, we get a temperature change of...

....just about 48 degree.

If it's a warm summer day, you're not going to want to touch the rotors,
as they will now be above the boiling point of water (about 120°C)...

(Provided you ignore the energy lost to the airflow and also dissipated
by the mass of the pads and calipers themselves, as well was the energy
conducted into the hub of each wheel)...

....but it's hardly going to be enough to deposit brake pad material onto
the disk.

This is why brake bedding procedures call for MULTIPLE retardations from
highway speed in order to get the disks hot enough to deposit an even
layer of pad material onto the surface.

I know this, because in my amateur racing "career", I'm also a senior
racing instructor, and because our students are driving road cars for
sessions where the brakes actually WILL get to the temperatures that can
cause that kind of deposition, we always tell them not to apply the
parking braking when returning to the paddock after a session.

Shocker:

One again, Arlen hasn't the slightest clue what he's talking about.

On 2022-05-07 7:39 p.m., Michael Trew wrote:
> On 5/7/2022 1:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>> But what you do is compensate for that creep by slowing the car down and
>> stopping well before you would otherwise do.
>>
>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>
> I always brake this way either way.  It wigs me out when I ride with
> people who slow down quickly.  Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and pulse
> the brakes when slowing down.

Assuming a similar time to stop the vehicle, it makes no difference
whether you stop quickly or slowly; the range of "quick" to "slow" isn't
sufficiently different.

If you start from the same speed, and brake to the same place...

....you're dissipating the same amount of energy.

On 2022-05-07 9:50 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>
>>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>>
>> I always brake this way either way.  It wigs me out when I ride with
>> people who slow down quickly.  Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
>> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and
>> pulse the brakes when slowing down.
>
> Good. Almost nobody knows that the key is to brake harder earlier, rather
> than braking harder later, and, most importantly, NOT leaving your foot on
> the pedal at the stop.
>
> I've never met a person in my life who was adamant that his rotors warped
> who had ever measured the warp they're so very certain happened, that
> didn't.
>
> It's one more case of how shockingly stupid most people are.

How shockingly stupid you are...

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message news:t57i62$p1k$1@dont-email.me...

> Do the math on a single stop from highway speed.
>
> My 2012 BMW 135i MSport Edition weights 4,255lbs, so stopping it from
> 60mph must dissipate 694,273 Joules.
>
> We'll assume that all the energy of the stop remains in the rotors
> themselves, and that BMW has done it's job properly and that therefore the
> front and rear brake rotors are proportional in mass to the energy each
> must dissipate.
>
> So we can take the total mass of the rotors, the heat capacity of steel
> and calculate the change in temperature.
>
> The mass of those rotors is 34.47kg
>
> The specific heat of steel is about 420 joules per kilogram per degree
>
> 420J/kg*c
>
> So with 34.47kg, we get 14,477.4 J per degree C temperature change, and
> dividing the 694,273 joules we've got, we get a temperature change of...
>
> ...just about 48 degree.
>
> If it's a warm summer day, you're not going to want to touch the rotors,
> as they will now be above the boiling point of water (about 120°C)...
>
> (Provided you ignore the energy lost to the airflow and also dissipated by
> the mass of the pads and calipers themselves, as well was the energy
> conducted into the hub of each wheel)...
>
> ...but it's hardly going to be enough to deposit brake pad material onto
> the disk.
>
> This is why brake bedding procedures call for MULTIPLE retardations from
> highway speed in order to get the disks hot enough to deposit an even
> layer of pad material onto the surface.
>
> I know this, because in my amateur racing "career", I'm also a senior
> racing instructor, and because our students are driving road cars for
> sessions where the brakes actually WILL get to the temperatures that can
> cause that kind of deposition, we always tell them not to apply the
> parking braking when returning to the paddock after a session.

I remember many years ago watching a "for schools and colleges" TV science
programme at school about "energy". It talked about converting kinetic
energy into other forms. As an example, they rigged up a camera on a car,
pointing at the front brake disc. They they took it on a racing track (they
emphasised that this was off-road!), and repeatedly accelerated to 70 and
then braked hard to a stop. After a few cycles of this, the discs were
glowing cherry red. I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot,
and that brake pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.

NY wrote:

> I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot,
> and that brake pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.

Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.

Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to reach
in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking about.

Regarding pad deposition, it's hard to believe, (even for me), but it takes
only a small amount (almost impossible to measure directly) of "bump" of
collected pad chemical "footprint" to build up to the point it's felt while
braking (usually at highway speeds).

Just as I ask all iKooks for a _single_ fact that backs up their entire
belief system (and they almost never can answer that simple question), I
ask anyone who claims their rotors warped what the measurements were.

And they don't have them.
Because...

Because they simply guessed.
Why?

Intuition is a terrible thing.
--
Intuition is a terrible thing when it's coming from an evolved monkey.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Intuition is a terrible thing.

Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents" intuition, by
the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.

If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask them for
one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
matters.

Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
--
Intuition is a terrible thing.

On 2022-05-08 8:43 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> NY wrote:
>
>> I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot, and that brake
>> pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.
>
> Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
> happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.
>
> Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to reach
> in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking about.
>
> Regarding pad deposition, it's hard to believe, (even for me), but it takes
> only a small amount (almost impossible to measure directly) of "bump" of
> collected pad chemical "footprint" to build up to the point it's felt while
> braking (usually at highway speeds).
>
> Just as I ask all iKooks for a _single_ fact that backs up their entire
> belief system (and they almost never can answer that simple question), I
> ask anyone who claims their rotors warped what the measurements were.
>
> And they don't have them.
> Because...
> Because they simply guessed.
> Why?
>
> Intuition is a terrible thing.

Isn't it interesting how you've clipped and ignored all the facts presented.

:-)

On 5/8/2022 0:52, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-07 7:39 p.m., Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 5/7/2022 1:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>
>>> But what you do is compensate for that creep by slowing the car down and
>>> stopping well before you would otherwise do.
>>>
>>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>>
>> I always brake this way either way. It wigs me out when I ride with
>> people who slow down quickly. Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
>> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and
>> pulse the brakes when slowing down.
>
> Assuming a similar time to stop the vehicle, it makes no difference
> whether you stop quickly or slowly; the range of "quick" to "slow" isn't
> sufficiently different.
>
> If you start from the same speed, and brake to the same place...
>
> ...you're dissipating the same amount of energy.

The primary reason that I brake early is for safety. Last minute is not
a good idea.

Michael Trew wrote:

> The primary reason that I brake early is for safety. Last minute is not
> a good idea.

I realize you're responding to another point from another person...

My point is... In terms of what people call "rotor warp", the primary point
I'm trying to make is that holding the pad against the hot rotor at the end
of a stop is the one thing you want to avoid (any way that you can avoid
it).

It doesn't matter as much _how_ you stop as not holding the pad firmly
against a hot rotor when you're done stopping.

Although we could discuss the total amount of heat being dissipated in a
short hard fast stop versus a long slow rolling stop - but that's another
thing altogether to my point about "rotor warp" (as people call it).

On 2022-05-08 9:49 a.m., Michael Trew wrote:
> On 5/8/2022 0:52, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-05-07 7:39 p.m., Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 5/7/2022 1:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But what you do is compensate for that creep by slowing the car down
>>>> and
>>>> stopping well before you would otherwise do.
>>>>
>>>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>>>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>>>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>>>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>>>
>>> I always brake this way either way.  It wigs me out when I ride with
>>> people who slow down quickly.  Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
>>> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and
>>> pulse the brakes when slowing down.
>>
>> Assuming a similar time to stop the vehicle, it makes no difference
>> whether you stop quickly or slowly; the range of "quick" to "slow" isn't
>> sufficiently different.
>>
>> If you start from the same speed, and brake to the same place...
>>
>> ...you're dissipating the same amount of energy.
>
> The primary reason that I brake early is for safety.  Last minute is not
> a good idea.

I'm not saying one should do a full-on, threshold-braking racing stop.

(Which I am actually capable of doing)

I'm just correcting a misconception about braking and heat.

:-)

On 2022-05-08 10:25 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>
>> The primary reason that I brake early is for safety.  Last minute is
>> not a good idea.
>
> I realize you're responding to another point from another person...
> My point is... In terms of what people call "rotor warp", the primary point
> I'm trying to make is that holding the pad against the hot rotor at the end
> of a stop is the one thing you want to avoid (any way that you can avoid
> it).

If the rotor was actually very hot...

....which it almost never is in street driving.

> It doesn't matter as much _how_ you stop as not holding the pad firmly
> against a hot rotor when you're done stopping.
>
> Although we could discuss the total amount of heat being dissipated in a
> short hard fast stop versus a long slow rolling stop - but that's another
> thing altogether to my point about "rotor warp" (as people call it).

What's to discuss except for the fact that if the stops are both from
the same initial speed, you'll be dissipating precisely the same amount
of energy as heat?

On 2022-05-08 8:46 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>
> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents" intuition, by
> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>
> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask them for
> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
> matters.
>
> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.

This isn't marketing.

It's quite obvious logic.

Reading text messages is not something you want people to be doing while
driving.

Writing them on a tiny smartphone onscreen keyboard is insane.

Handsfree phone use with your smart assistant reading messages...

....sure, that's safe enough.