https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2023/02/archaeological-breakthrough-evidence-that-neanderthals-hunted-giant-elephants
Scientific breakthrough: evidence that Neanderthals hunted
giant elephants
02 February 2023

Neanderthals were able to outwit straight-tusked
elephants, the largest land mammals of the past few
million years. Leiden professor Wil Roebroeks has
published an article about this together with his
German colleague Sabine Gaudzinski-Windheuser in the
Science Advances journal.
....

https://www.science.org/content/article/neanderthals-lived-groups-big-enough-eat-giant-elephants

Neanderthals lived in groups big enough to eat giant elephants
Meat from the butchered beasts would have fed hundreds

On the muddy shores of a lake in east-central Germany,
Neanderthals gathered some 125,000 years ago to butcher
massive elephants. With sharp stone tools, they harvested
up to 4 tons of flesh from each animal, according to a
new study that is casting these ancient human relatives
in a new light. The degree of organization required to
carry out the butchery—and the sheer quantity of food it
provided - suggests Neanderthals could form much larger
social groups than previously thought.
....

The paper itself:

https://www.science.org/doi/epdf/10.1126/sciadv.add8186

Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000
years ago: Implications for Neanderthal behavior

Straight-tusked elephants (Palaeoloxodon antiquus) were
the largest terrestrial mammals of the Pleistocene, present
in Eurasian landscapes between 800,000 and 100,000 years
ago.The occasional co-occurrence of their skeletal remains
with stone tools has generated rich speculation about the
nature of interactions between these elephants and
Pleistocene humans: Did hominins scavenge on elephants that
died a natural death or maybe even hunt some individuals?
Our archaeozoological study of the largest P. antiquus
assemblage known, excavated from 125,000-year-old lake
deposits in Germany, shows that hunting of elephants
weighing up to 13 metric tons was part of the cultural
repertoire of Last Interglacial Neanderthals there, over
>2000 years, many dozens of generations. The intensity and
nutritional yields of these well-documented butchering
activities, combined with previously reported data from
this Neumark-Nordsite complex, suggest that Neanderthals
were less mobileand operated within social units
substantially larger than commonly envisaged.
....

On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 22:30:30 -0700, Primum Sapienti
<invalide@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2023/02/archaeological-breakthrough-evidence-that-neanderthals-hunted-giant-elephants
>Scientific breakthrough: evidence that Neanderthals hunted
>giant elephants
>02 February 2023
>
>Neanderthals were able to outwit straight-tusked
>elephants, the largest land mammals of the past few
>million years. Leiden professor Wil Roebroeks has
>published an article about this together with his
>German colleague Sabine Gaudzinski-Windheuser in the
>Science Advances journal.
>...
>https://www.science.org/content/article/neanderthals-lived-groups-big-enough-eat-giant-elephants
>
>https://www.science.org/doi/epdf/10.1126/sciadv.add8186

And they seem to have had the physique to do so:

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2018.12.023

"The prevailing explanation for Neanderthal body form is the cold
(glacial) adaptation hypothesis. However, palaeoecological
associations appear to indicate a less cold woodland environment.
Under such conditions, encounter and ambush (rather than pursuit)
hunting – and thus muscular power and sprint (rather than endurance)
capacity – would have been favoured. We hypothesise that the highly
muscular Neanderthal body form reflects an adaptation to hunting
conditions rather than cold, and here both review the palaeoecological
evidence that they inhabited a mainly woodland environment, and
present preliminary genetic analyses in support of this new
hypothesis."

Primum Sapienti wrote:

> Neanderthals lived in groups big enough to eat giant elephants
> Meat from the butchered beasts would have fed hundreds

Um. This is stupid.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/708904444757147648

Fantasy: evidence that Neanderthals hunted giant elephants

From discussion at AAT:

I fully agree with Francesca (Mansfield), of course:
- neandertal broad pelvis (platypelloidy), long & more horizontal femoral necks ("hip fractures"!), dorso-ventrally flattened femora (platymeria), very valgus knees, shorter tibias, flat feet etc. are incompatible with fast running & active hunting (vs butchering of waterside carcasses of mammoths),
- stone tools, very large brain, big nose surrounded by large paranasal air sinuses & esp. pachyosteosclerosis (although less than in H.erectus) suggest frequent diving (+ back-floating) for shellfish etc., e.g. see the recent paper on crab in neandertal diet. --marc

Kudu+mammoth hunter:
> > Neanderthals lived in groups big enough to eat giant elephants
> > Meat from the butchered beasts would have fed hundreds

> Um. This is stupid.

Indeed...
Difficult to understand that people who believe they're smart can produce such fantasies.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 02:22:07 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

>Fantasy: evidence that Neanderthals hunted giant elephants
>
>From discussion at AAT:
>
>I fully agree with Francesca (Mansfield), of course:

And who may that be?

>-neandertal broad pelvis (platypelloidy), long & more horizontal femoral necks ("hip fractures"!),
>dorso-ventrally flattened femora (platymeria), very valgus knees, shorter tibias, flat feet etc. are
>incompatible with fast running & active hunting (vs butchering of waterside carcasses of mammoths),

Anyone who sees the Neanderthal and modern human skeleton next to each
other should come to the conclusion that if the one could run then the
other could too, with subtle biomechanical differences.
See fig. 4 in: https://doi.org/10.1002/ar.b.20057

Kudu runner:

> Anyone who sees the Neanderthal and modern human skeleton next to each
> other should come to the conclusion that if the one could run then the
> other could too, with subtle biomechanical differences.

"Anyone"??? :-DDD Learn a bit about anatomy, my little little boy.
Never heard of neandertal platypelloidy, long & more horizontal femoral necks ("hip fractures"!), platymeria), very valgus knees, shorter tibias, broad feet etc. ???
Grow up!

Kudu+elephant runner:
> > Anyone who sees the Neanderthal and modern human skeleton next to each
> > other should come to the conclusion that if the one could run then the
> > other could too, with subtle biomechanical differences.

Me:
> "Anyone"??? :-DDD Learn a bit about anatomy, my little little boy.
> Never heard of neandertal platypelloidy, long & more horizontal femoral necks ("hip fractures"!), platymeria, very valgus knees, shorter tibias, broad feet etc. ???

BTW, skull differences between Hn & Hs were even less "subtle":
Hn prognathism + retro-molar space & no chin, big nose surrounded by large para-nasal air sinuses in maxilla & in supraorbital torus, very thick occiput (POS=pachy-osteo-sclerotic dorsal skull), strong supra-orbital torus + receding forehead & platy-cephaly (vs. high forehead in Hs): very large & low & long brain-skull + foramen magnum a bit more dorsally -> nuchal muscles attached more dorsally occipitally (less cervical lordosis) etc.etc.

Hs & Hn are subspp of the same species (interfertile, IOW, arguably H.sapiens neanderthalensis rather than H.neanderthalensis), but nevertheless Hn & Hs were quite different anatomically:
all Hn diving adaptations seem to be disappearing in Hs:
we're indeed not aquatic anymore, Hs was intermediate apparently, but H.erectus was predom.shallow-diving: POS++, island colonizations etc.
Hn anatomy leaves no doubt: these people frequently dived for slow or immobile shallow-aquatic foods,
between 2 dives they back-floated (nose up, POS occiput), probably for opening (with stone tool?) + swallowing the food: shellfish, crab...

Only incredible idiots believe Hn ran hunting elephants.

The exploitation of crabs by Last Interglacial Iberian Neanderthals:
the evidence from Gruta da Figueira Brava (Portugal)
Mariana Nabais, Catherine Dupont & João Zilhão 2023
Front.Environ.Archaeol. 7.2.23
Sec.Zooarchaeology 2 doi org/10.3389/fearc.2023.1097815
Hominin consumption of small prey (is) often considered to be unproductive in the mid-Paleolithic, due to their limited meat yield + low energy return,
but ethnographic studies suggest: small prey incl.shellfish are a reliable, predictable, by no means marginal resource,
there is increasing evidence for their inclusion in hominin diets mid-Paleolithic & even earlier.
Gruta da Figueira Brava features a MIS-5c-5b Hn occupation that left behind substantial, human-accumulated terrestrial & marine faunal remains, capped by re-worked levels that contain some naturally accumulated, recent Holocene material: the remains of small crab spp & echinoderms.
Cancer pagurus predominates in the intact mid-Paleolithic deposit,
reconstruction of its carapace width (based on regression from claw size) shows a preference for rel.large individuals.
The detailed analysis of the Cancer pagurus remains reveals:
complete animals were brought to the site, where they were roasted on coals, then cracked open to access the flesh.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 08:31:31 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

>Kudu runner:
>
>> Anyone who sees the Neanderthal and modern human skeleton next to each
>> other should come to the conclusion that if the one could run then the
>> other could too, with subtle biomechanical differences.
>
>"Anyone"??? :-DDD Learn a bit about anatomy, my little little boy.
>Never heard of neandertal platypelloidy, long & more horizontal femoral necks ("hip fractures"!), platymeria), very valgus knees, shorter tibias, broad feet etc. ???
>Grow up!

Maybe you can enlighten us here, professor, and provide us with some
comparative metrics. Or should I?

For example, valgus knee is assessed by means of the femoral
bicondylar angle. Laura Shackleton (Ph.D., Anthropology, Washington
University, St. Louis, 2005) measured an average Neanderthal
bicondylar angle of 9.6 degrees, while in a sample of Earlier Upper
Paleolithic modern humans it's 9.9 degrees. See table 2 in:
<https://biblio.naturalsciences.be/associated_publications/anthropologica-prehistorica/anthropologica-et-praehistorica/ap-124/spy-cave-volume-2/xxix-1_shackelford.pdf>

Conclusion: Neanderthals did not have very valgus knees.

Femoral neck-shaft angle (NSA) in Neanderthals is 121.0 degrees, while
in Earlier UP modern humans it's 121.5 (see table 2 in Shackleton),
not significantly different.
In a large global sample of modern humans the average NSA is 126.4
degrees (SD = 5.57 deg., range = 105 - 148):
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joa.12073
The NSA of the two Spy Neanderthals (120 and 118 degrees, table 1 in
Shackleton) falls comfortably within the modern human range.

Fracture risk is first of all determined by bone mineral densisty
(BMD), and Neanderthals had more robust bones than modern humans.
Does a lower NSA increase fracture risk? See:
https://www.ijoro.org/index.php/ijoro/article/view/1231

Did Neanderthals have shorter tibias? This is measured by means of the
crural index. In Neanderthals crural index = 78.9, while in modern
Europeans it varies from 78.4 - 83.1 (table 11.1 in Walker and Leakey
1993, The Nariokotome Homo erectus skeleton). Neanderthals were within
the modern human range of variation.

And with regard to Neandethal feet: "Some researchers have suggested
that Neanderthal feet may have functioned differently than those of
modern humans but, if so, these differences were likely subtle.
Neanderthal pedal remains are relatively robust but otherwise they are
largely modern-human like in shape.":
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-06436-4_15

Comparison of the Neanderthal foot from Kiik Koba with that of UP
modern humans from Sunghir in dorsal view shows that Neanderthals did
not have broad feet:
<https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dorsal-views-of-articulated-pedal-skeletons-above-and-dorsal-or-plantar-views-of-first_fig1_349657335>

In other words, if modern humans can run within the range of variation
of their anatomy, then there's no reason to suggest that Neanderthals
could not.

Kudu+mammoth runner:

> >> Anyone who sees the Neanderthal and modern human skeleton next to each
> >> other should come to the conclusion that if the one could run then the
> >> other could too, with subtle biomechanical differences.

> >"Anyone"??? :-DDD Learn a bit about anatomy, my little little boy.
> >Never heard of neandertal platypelloidy, long & more horizontal femoral necks ("hip fractures"!), platymeria), very valgus knees, shorter tibias, broad feet etc. ???
> >Grow up!

> Maybe you can enlighten us here, professor, and provide us with some
> comparative metrics. Or should I?

Yes, thanks a lot, my litle boy! Well done! :-) Good work!
I'll have to revise my view:
from He>>Hn>>Hs to He>>Hn>Hs.

Valgus knees in both Hn & Hs are maladaptative to running.
Same with flat feet in both Hn & Hs.
Same with Hn shorter tibias.
Same with femoral necks in both Hn & Hs, e.g. fractures!
= adaptation to lateral leg movements for swimming,
still very maladaptive to human locomotion today:
which normal terrestrial mammal suffers from hip fractures??
Pachyosteosclerosis: fragile: too much calcium
(fracture risk in Hs = osteoporosis: has 0 to do too *much* Ca, of course).
IOW, Hs & even more so Hn are/were very poor runners vs most mammals.

“The nowadays popular ideas about Pleistocene human ancestors running in open plains (endurance running, dogged pursuit of swifter animals, born to run, le singe coureur, Savannahstan) are among the worst scientific hypotheses ever proposed.”

Only complete idiots believe their ancestors ran after kudus or mammoths or whatever.
Hn ate crabs... :-)

_______

> For example, valgus knee is assessed by means of the femoral
> bicondylar angle. Laura Shackleton (Ph.D., Anthropology, Washington
> University, St. Louis, 2005) measured an average Neanderthal
> bicondylar angle of 9.6 degrees, while in a sample of Earlier Upper
> Paleolithic modern humans it's 9.9 degrees. See table 2 in:
> <https://biblio.naturalsciences.be/associated_publications/anthropologica-prehistorica/anthropologica-et-praehistorica/ap-124/spy-cave-volume-2/xxix-1_shackelford.pdf>
> Conclusion: Neanderthals did not have very valgus knees.
> Femoral neck-shaft angle (NSA) in Neanderthals is 121.0 degrees, while
> in Earlier UP modern humans it's 121.5 (see table 2 in Shackleton),
> not significantly different.
> In a large global sample of modern humans the average NSA is 126.4
> degrees (SD = 5.57 deg., range = 105 - 148):
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joa.12073
> The NSA of the 2 Spy Neanderthals (120 and 118 degrees, table 1 in
> Shackleton) falls comfortably within the modern human range.
> Fracture risk is first of all determined by bone mineral densisty
> (BMD), and Neanderthals had more robust bones than modern humans.
> Does a lower NSA increase fracture risk? See:
> https://www.ijoro.org/index.php/ijoro/article/view/1231
> Did Neanderthals have shorter tibias? This is measured by means of the
> crural index. In Neanderthals crural index = 78.9, while in modern
> Europeans it varies from 78.4 - 83.1 (table 11.1 in Walker and Leakey
> 1993, The Nariokotome Homo erectus skeleton). Neanderthals were within
> the modern human range of variation.
> And with regard to Neandethal feet: "Some researchers have suggested
> that Neanderthal feet may have functioned differently than those of
> modern humans but, if so, these differences were likely subtle.
> Neanderthal pedal remains are relatively robust but otherwise they are
> largely modern-human like in shape.":
> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-06436-4_15
> Comparison of the Neanderthal foot from Kiik Koba with that of UP
> modern humans from Sunghir in dorsal view shows that Neanderthals did
> not have broad feet:
> <https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dorsal-views-of-articulated-pedal-skeletons-above-and-dorsal-or-plantar-views-of-first_fig1_349657335>
> In other words, if modern humans can run within the range of variation
> of their anatomy, then there's no reason to suggest that Neanderthals
> could not.

And don't forget today's WHAT talk:
from Dr Algis Kuliukas:

Dear One and All,
Please consider yourself most cordially invited to the 16th in our WHAT Talks series, this coming Sunday, 12th February, at 9 pm West Australian Time, when our guest, Andrea Andrews, will give her talk: The Patient Ape: How Aquatic Insight Ratchets Up Adaptability.
(Feel free to forward the invite to anyone who you think might be interested in human evolution.)
The Zoom link to the meeting is at the end of this email.
Note the link specifies a start time fifteen minutes earlier to allow the guest speaker and a few others to prepare. A "waiting room" system will be in operation so if you do join early, please be patient while we test everything before allowing people "in".
We are expecting attendees from around the globe so please pay attention to your time zone and any local daylight-saving alterations that might be in place.
The Worldtimebuddy web site is not a bad web resource to check this kind of thing.
Note: Midnight in Melbourne; 10pm in Tokyo; 9pm in Perth, 2pm CET; 1pm UK; 7am CST USA.
Jump to the end if you want to go straight to the Zoom link now or read on to find out more about Andrea and her talk.

A N D R E A A N D R E W S Biography
Andrea received a BSc (Hons) Geography / Geology Degree from College of St Paul & St Mary, Cheltenham, UK in 1986 & MSc in Hydrogeology & Groundwater Chemistry from Reading University in 1993. She worked as an engineering geologist in the UK until 1998 when she became a mother of two girls and then returned to work as a fully qualified swimming teacher in 2003.
She had grown up with an idyllic childhood exploring waterscapes inside and outside in the Isle of Purbeck UK and lengthy summer holidays with her younger brother visiting the water bodies of Europe; mainly France. Her deep interest in a career as a swimming teacher first came to the fore in 2002 when her eldest daughter swam spontaneously towards her and she has been on a long journey ever since to try and reveal why some people appear to have a natural affinity with water and others really struggle to cope in swimming lessons.
To cut a long story short, she has spent many water hours teaching all ages to swim in mainstream lessons & owned and run two small swimming businesses:
· Adult & child lessons, as Starfishes at Trinity Trainer Pool in Henley-On-Thames, Oxfordshire, UK.
· Courses for fearful adults, in partnership with Zoe Cheale, as A2Z Swim in Cheltenham, Glos & Didcot, Oxfordshire, UK. Now it is only a Facebook page.
· She has written lots of published articles since 2011 on the nature of ordinary human engagement with water:
· 27+ articles for Aquatic industry magazine ‘The Swimming Times’ & ‘The Leisure Review’.
· ‘How to Help People Float’, International Journal of Aquatic Research & Education, Https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/ijare/vol11/iss4/1
· ‘The Challenge of Water Entries’, International Journal of Aquatic Research & Education, Https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/ijare/vol13/iss3/2
Now:
· A director of the Lifesaving Foundation of Ireland CLG since 2021..
· Tutor, trainer & research advisor for the Institute of Aquaphobia..
· Seeks, mentors & supports aquatic professionals with an ‘aquatic mind set’.
In 2013 at the Human Evolution, Past, Present & Future Conference in London Andrea produced a poster titled “Shaped in Water?” and met some of the other presenters on the WHAT talks. (See PDF of the poster)
Recently Andrea was invited by Milton Nelms & Hilde Hansen to give three forty five minute presentations at the World Aquatics Development Conference in Lund, Sweden from 12th-15th January where she spoke about the critical role that safe aquatic curiosity plays in the Learn-To-Swim & Drowning Prevention sectors.

The Talk: The Patient Ape: How Aquatic Insight Ratchets Up Adaptability
Sensing how to survive & thrive in water space demands significant unconscious computational time & energy but once accomplished the nervous system is more responsive & adaptive than before. The subconscious processing structures that the nervous system builds for survival through spontaneous training in water (‘inter-animation’) are ready for sensing perpetual change & are ripe for co-adoption. This means that the significance of the increased readiness for safely engaging with water caused by learning how to survive & move in its new and responsive milieu may have been hugely under estimated.
By developing effective physical inter-animation in water our human ancestors benefitted significantly from a much more adaptive nervous system which was trained to drive and be ready for patient thought. For the first time our ancestors had more time to internally predict, plan, reflect & explore whilst free of the need for faster internal processing which is required on land. Patience is the mode of the nervous system that has adapted to the slower, more thrifty and concurrent movements that need to made in water. In other words the nervous system needs to have successfully integrated myriad subconscious impulses from its own and externally generated movement sources to develop physical patience. This is likely to have been a very powerful internal ratchet of evolutionary adaptation.
A flexible nervous system can choose to go fast, slow, wastefully, thriftily, concurrent or against the environment it is engaging with.
Inter-animation is not a consciously led process and effects of the movements it draws upon stay distributed inside the body of the learner as memorable emotional impulses rather than conscious reflections. This means that it is hard to describe what happens during aquatic learning because the verbal system is not involved.
Those who are afraid of water have not yet been able to use inter-animation and they will not be able to do so until they feel safe enough for their bodily hypervigilance to slow down to a calm stop.
Modern swimming instruction can really hinder inter-animation and negative experiences only serve to compound fears. Once afraid of water the thought of being immersed in it generates a terrifying feeling of powerless isolation and even entrapment. The talk will explore how crucial our personal internal states (emotions) are for successfully understanding all aquatic conundrums because water made reflective emotions our most powerful hidden survival tool.

The WHAT talks programme has provided consistently fascinating seminars and discussions with some really well known and respected guest speakers.
Remember, all talks are recorded for posterity. You can find the videos on our WHAT Talks web site or the YouTube channel.

I N V I T E

Algis Kuliukas is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
Topic: WHAT Talk #16 - Andrea Andrews
Time: Feb 12, 2023 08:45 PM Perth

Join Zoom Meeting

https://us06web.zoom.us/j/83999867856?pwd=VjNCb0I0cGFCc0NCTTA4K1oxbThtUT09

Meeting ID: 839 9986 7856
Passcode: 844896

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Dr Algis Kuliukas
Anatomy, Physiology and Human Biology

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 03:32:57 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

>Kudu+mammoth runner:
>
>> >> Anyone who sees the Neanderthal and modern human skeleton next to each
>> >> other should come to the conclusion that if the one could run then the
>> >> other could too, with subtle biomechanical differences.
>
>> >"Anyone"??? :-DDD Learn a bit about anatomy, my little little boy.
>> >Never heard of neandertal platypelloidy, long & more horizontal femoral necks ("hip fractures"!), platymeria), very valgus knees, shorter tibias, broad feet etc. ???
>> >Grow up!
>
>> Maybe you can enlighten us here, professor, and provide us with some
>> comparative metrics. Or should I?
>
>Yes, thanks a lot, my litle boy! Well done! :-) Good work!
>I'll have to revise my view:
>from He>>Hn>>Hs to He>>Hn>Hs.
>
>Valgus knees in both Hn & Hs are maladaptative to running.

Are you really that ill-informed about functional anatomy?
The valgus knee brings the lower leg and foot closer to the midline of
the body, underneath the center of gravity. As a result lateral
movement of the body during the stance phase is reduced.
That's exactly an adaptation to running/walking.

>Same with flat feet in both Hn & Hs.

What flat feet?
They had both longitudinal and transverse pedal arches that served as
effective support and leverage systems for a bipedal striding gait,
including running.
See: https://doi.org/10.1177/107110078300300606

And the recently discovered early Homo foot skeleton, KNM-ER 64062,
from 1.84 Ma deposits from Ileret, Turkana Basin, shows the same
architecture:
https://www.turkanabasin.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/3d-yang.jpg

Clearly a support and lever, not a flipper.

>Same with Hn shorter tibias.

Like living Europeans with a crural index of 78.4 - 83.1, a
Neanderthal could have been a perfectly good runner with a crural
index of 78.9.

>Same with femoral necks in both Hn & Hs, e.g. fractures!

Hn suffered lots of trauma, but femoral neck fractures have not been
described as far as I know. See:
<https://doi.org/10.1016/0305-4403(95)90013-6>

You don't get that kind of lesions from diving for shellfish, do you?

>= adaptation to lateral leg movements for swimming,
>still very maladaptive to human locomotion today:
>which normal terrestrial mammal suffers from hip fractures??
>Pachyosteosclerosis: fragile: too much calcium
>(fracture risk in Hs = osteoporosis: has 0 to do too *much* Ca, of course).
>IOW, Hs & even more so Hn are/were very poor runners vs most mammals.

Hs and Hn were very poor swimmers vs most (semi)aquatic mammals.

Kudu+mammoth runner:
> The valgus knee brings the lower leg and foot closer to the midline of
> the body, underneath the center of gravity.

:-DDD
Are you really that ill-informed about functional anatomy??
My little little little boy, if there hadn't been rel.horizontal & long femoral necks, valgus knees hadn't been necessary.
Sigh.
Grow up.

Pandora wrote:

> Maybe you can enlighten us here, professor, and provide us with some
> comparative metrics. Or should I?

Again, and I know this is alien to you and the Church of Paleoanthrpology
but, you just don't get it.

It's about a model. It's about a model that explains everything. If you
find a squirrel in a concrete bunker that is hermetically sealed, and there's
only one door, then no amount of ranting over door knob heights,
mechanical pressure or the dexterity of it's little paws can change the fact
that the dirty little tree rat came in through that door.

> For example, valgus knee is assessed by

You, you also claimed that Neanderthals had smaller brains than so called
moderns when virtually nobody else on the planet says this.

I personally don't give a damn, one way or the other. When a house burns
down the "Argument" isn't over whether or not it did, the argument is over
HOW. If it's remote enough, you might even argue over WHEN. But the
fact that the house burned down is self evident.

You're trying to obstruct. Literally. You have no interest in these topics, no
intellectual curiosity and your only investment is in punishing a heretic.

Stop that.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709042163418365953

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:06:18 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The valgus knee brings the lower leg and foot closer to the midline of
>> the body, underneath the center of gravity.
>
>:-DDD
>Are you really that ill-informed about functional anatomy??
>My little little little boy, if there hadn't been rel.horizontal & long femoral necks, valgus knees hadn't been necessary.

In upright hominin bipedalism you need laterally flaring ilia in
combination with relatively horizontal & long femoral necks in order
to accommodate the lateral balancing system (pelvic stabilization):
https://osteopathysingapore.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/gluteus-medius.jpg

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 14:16:51 -0800 (PST), JTEM is so reasonable
<jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:

>Pandora wrote:
>
>> Maybe you can enlighten us here, professor, and provide us with some
>> comparative metrics. Or should I?
>
>Again, and I know this is alien to you and the Church of Paleoanthrpology
>but, you just don't get it.
>
>It's about a model. It's about a model that explains everything. If you
>find a squirrel in a concrete bunker that is hermetically sealed, and there's
>only one door, then no amount of ranting over door knob heights,
>mechanical pressure or the dexterity of it's little paws can change the fact
>that the dirty little tree rat came in through that door.

Did you consider quantum tunneling?

Kucu runner:

> In upright hominin bipedalism you need laterally flaring ilia ...

:-DDD
In BPism tout court, flaring ilia are maladaptive, my little boy.

Pandora wrote:

> >It's about a model. It's about a model that explains everything. If you
> >find a squirrel in a concrete bunker that is hermetically sealed, and there's
> >only one door, then no amount of ranting over door knob heights,
> >mechanical pressure or the dexterity of it's little paws can change the fact
> >that the dirty little tree rat came in through that door.

> Did you consider quantum tunneling?

Yes. And you're still a body of drool pooled at the feet of a catatonic fool.

Oo!

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709132760597577728

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:31:12 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

>Kucu runner:
>
>> In upright hominin bipedalism you need laterally flaring ilia ...
>
>:-DDD
>In BPism tout court, flaring ilia are maladaptive

Small wonder that anyone can even walk and we didn't go extinct a long
time ago.

Pandora wrote:

> Small wonder that anyone can even walk and we didn't go extinct a long
> time ago.

Because people are so stupid some think bipedalism evolved in the trees,
you mean... it's a wonder humanity survived this long.

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709132760597577728

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:30:21 -0800 (PST), JTEM is so reasonable
<jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:

>Pandora wrote:
>
>> Small wonder that anyone can even walk and we didn't go extinct a long
>> time ago.
>
>Because people are so stupid some think bipedalism evolved in the trees,
>you mean... it's a wonder humanity survived this long.

What I mean is that this guy (KNM-WT 15000),
<https://humanorigins.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/erectus_KNMERWT15000_Skeleton_front_CC_p.jpg.webp?itok=8w6o5qYd>
already had all the maladaptations to bipedalism that you mentioned
(laterally flaring ileum, relatively horizontal and long femoral neck,
valgus knee) ~1.5 Ma:
And yet he and his kin were obligate terrestrial bipeds that were
ancestral to us. Could 1.5 million years of maladaptation have escaped
natural selection?

Pandora wrote:

> And yet he and his kin were obligate terrestrial bipeds

"The light over here is better."

You're not going to get away from this. Pale anthropology is not science. It
does not adhere to the rules of science. It does not follow sound,
scientific principles and practices.

You don't even seem to be aware of such concepts: Preservation bias.

That's the biggie. It's understood that some places are more likely to
form fossils than others. And, yes, some places are just plain easier to
reach and/or explore. But, EVEN KNOWING that mankind is not limited
to chasing after antelope on a savanna, EVEN KNOWING our ancestors
were everywhere from Oceania through China and onto Africa, and
everywhere in between, you deny it. Even knowing it's true, you deny it!
Nobody looks. Nobody cares. It's in conflict with your scriptures.

Well. It's understood everywhere outside your social program you
mislabel as science...

Then on top of that is your ridiculous circular reasoning. You begin with
your conclusion -- "Out of Africa purity!" -- and then interpret everything
within the context of that conclusion... only to tinkle all over yourself in
excitement for once again "Arriving at" your conclusion!

The Rift Valley, for example, is exactly where you'd expect an Aquatic
Ape splinter group to move inland. The Horn of Africa is exactly where
migrations out AND INTO Africa would pass... if you had any curiosity
at all you'd want to investigate this further. You'd want to test ideas.
You'd want to figure out WHY things are they way they are. But with
your circular reasoning you already know.

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709182985185918977

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:05:00 -0800 (PST), JTEM is so reasonable
<jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:

>Pandora wrote:
>
>> And yet he and his kin were obligate terrestrial bipeds
>
>"The light over here is better."

The good Doctor said: flaring ilea, long and more horizontal femoral
necks, and valgus knees are maladaptive with regard to bipedalism.

Yet "this pattern of femoral morphology has been typical of our
lineage from about 2 Ma until the appearance of anatomically modern
humans" (Walker and Leakey, p.145 in "The Nariokotome Homo erectus
Skeleton", Harvard Univ. Press, 1993).
And "The morphology of the KNM-ER 3228 os coxae, as well as that of
some isolated femoral specimens (e.g., KNM-ER 1472, 1475, and 1481),
indicate that the H. erectus femoropelvic complex was established by
1.98 Ma": https://doi.org/10.1002/ar.23576

And while these hominins were clearly habitual bipeds the good Doctor
suggests that natural selection closed her eyes for 2 million years.

Kudu runner:

> >> And yet he and his kin were obligate terrestrial bipeds

> >"The light over here is better."

> The good Doctor said: flaring ilea, long and more horizontal femoral
> necks, and valgus knees are maladaptive with regard to bipedalism.

> Yet "this pattern of femoral morphology has been typical of our
> lineage from about 2 Ma

And longer: Pliocene diving for shellfish at S-Asian coasts:
cf Pleistocene fossils Java + shell engravings, google e.g. "Joordens Munro".

> until the appearance of anatomically modern
> humans"

Yes, we still have to walk (we can even run sometimes a minutes?!) with fragile hips, hooked knees, flat feet & only 2 legs:
no wonder humans suffer from osteoarthrosis, and are still the slowest of all primates.

:-DDD

The kudu runners become more+more ridiculous.
Difficult to understand how traditional self-declared "anthropologists" can remain so stupid that they believe their ancestors ran after kudus...

Pandora wrote:

> The good Doctor said

Besides the fact that you're a little fast & lose with your facts, it's
not about the details anyway. No answer about knees s going to
change dispersal, the Chromosome 11 insert -- everything.

It just doesn't.

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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709313954911027200

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:58:29 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >> And yet he and his kin were obligate terrestrial bipeds
>
>> >"The light over here is better."
>
>> The good Doctor said: flaring ilea, long and more horizontal femoral
>> necks, and valgus knees are maladaptive with regard to bipedalism.
>
>> Yet "this pattern of femoral morphology has been typical of our
>> lineage from about 2 Ma
>
>And longer: Pliocene diving for shellfish at S-Asian coasts:
>cf Pleistocene fossils Java + shell engravings, google e.g. "Joordens Munro".

Pleistocene, not Pliocene. There is no fossil evidence for Pliocene
hominins in Asia.

>> until the appearance of anatomically modern
>> humans"
>
>Yes, we still have to walk (we can even run sometimes a minutes?!) with fragile hips, hooked knees, flat feet & only 2 legs:
>no wonder humans suffer from osteoarthrosis,

Yet, the hominin bicondylar angle only develops in response to
habitual bipedalism, not in response to swimming or diving:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15397302_Early_ontogeny_of_the_human_femoral_bicondylar_angle

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11373640_Development_of_the_Femoral_Bicondylar_Angle_in_Hominid_Bipedalism

>and are still the slowest of all primates.

You've never seen a slow loris?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auzX1DqG2UM