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tech / rec.aviation.piloting / Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day

SubjectAuthor
* Hydrogen is used safely all around you every dayLarry Dighera
`* Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every dayJim Pennino
 `* Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every dayLarry Dighera
  `* Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every dayJim Pennino
   `* Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every dayLarry Dighera
    `- Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every dayJim Pennino

1
Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day

<612akipkf7kbqibqum54o38fht8r92ndeq@4ax.com>

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 07:56:04 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Fri, 3 Nov 2023 14:56 UTC

Hey, Jim,

Have a look at this video:
https://youtu.be/Poy26bvSfS4?si=F0nh6-Xfp8ga0Jiy
You've probably heard something about hydrogen. You may know hydrogen
can be used to fuel vehicles, but did you know that clean, abundant
hydrogen is used safely all around you every day? "Hydrogen: Nature's
Fuel" shows hydrogen at work in warehouses, golf courses, and even
breweries. The hydrogen used in these applications is made in a variety
of ways from domestic sources. Hydrogen truly is nature's fuel. With
hydrogen, we have the opportunity to create our own clean energy future.

In particular this part:
https://youtu.be/Poy26bvSfS4?si=_DQjroWvWf_MWOcf&t=1973

What is your professional opinion about the potential for H2 fueling the
future?

Larry

Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2023 08:38:25 -0700
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 by: Jim Pennino - Fri, 3 Nov 2023 15:38 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>
> Hey, Jim,
>
> Have a look at this video:
> https://youtu.be/Poy26bvSfS4?si=F0nh6-Xfp8ga0Jiy
> You've probably heard something about hydrogen. You may know hydrogen
> can be used to fuel vehicles, but did you know that clean, abundant
> hydrogen is used safely all around you every day? "Hydrogen: Nature's
> Fuel" shows hydrogen at work in warehouses, golf courses, and even
> breweries. The hydrogen used in these applications is made in a variety
> of ways from domestic sources. Hydrogen truly is nature's fuel. With
> hydrogen, we have the opportunity to create our own clean energy future.
>
>
> In particular this part:
> https://youtu.be/Poy26bvSfS4?si=_DQjroWvWf_MWOcf&t=1973
>
> What is your professional opinion about the potential for H2 fueling the
> future?
>
> Larry

You mean other than it is very expensive, difficult to store and
transport, and when burned in air creates huge amounts of NOx?

"Hydrogen truly is nature's fuel." is childish dreck.

While hydrogen in quanties sufficient to be mined have SUPPOSEDLY
been discovered, it remains to be seen if that will ever happen.

Methane, uranium, oil, coal etc. are ALL "nature's fuel".

Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day

<2ugaki9kfq71o1aq37jdepnmcf58a59vp9@4ax.com>

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2023 11:16:11 -0800
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 by: Larry Dighera - Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:16 UTC

On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 08:38:25 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hey, Jim,
>>
>> Have a look at this video:
>> https://youtu.be/Poy26bvSfS4?si=F0nh6-Xfp8ga0Jiy
>> You've probably heard something about hydrogen. You may know hydrogen
>> can be used to fuel vehicles, but did you know that clean, abundant
>> hydrogen is used safely all around you every day? "Hydrogen: Nature's
>> Fuel" shows hydrogen at work in warehouses, golf courses, and even
>> breweries. The hydrogen used in these applications is made in a variety
>> of ways from domestic sources. Hydrogen truly is nature's fuel. With
>> hydrogen, we have the opportunity to create our own clean energy future.
>>
>>
>> In particular this part:
>> https://youtu.be/Poy26bvSfS4?si=_DQjroWvWf_MWOcf&t=1973
>>
>> What is your professional opinion about the potential for H2 fueling the
>> future?
>>
>> Larry
>
>You mean other than it is very expensive, difficult to store and
>transport, and when burned in air creates huge amounts of NOx?
>
>"Hydrogen truly is nature's fuel." is childish dreck.
>
>While hydrogen in quanties sufficient to be mined have SUPPOSEDLY
>been discovered, it remains to be seen if that will ever happen.
>
>Methane, uranium, oil, coal etc. are ALL "nature's fuel".
>

Jim,

Thank you for taking the time to view and analyze the video and offering
your valuable critique.

With the current price of solar panels at less than a dollar per Watt, I
don't see the cost of the energy to produce hydrogen as a significant
barrier, as solar could power a 70–80% efficient electrolyzer for decades
(during sunny weather, of course). There is also
https://newatlas.com/energy/aluminum-gallium-hydrogen-powder/ . And,
although the methane reforming method of H2 production produces CO2 (an
arguably objectionable byproduct), in the brewery use-case, that CO2 was
actually captured and sold. The fact that methane is almost universally
available in urban environments does make it a viable consideration as a
source for H2 in specific cases.

The difficulty in storage of electricity is the heart of the issue. And, not
surprisingly, H2 does have storage issues, however I don't seem them as
insurmountable. LH2 can be held at ambient pressure in a Dewar for a
considerable tens of days without significant loss. Pressurized H2 is shown
to be routinely stored in steel tanks, so embrittlement seems to have been
addressed. (Unfortunately, even graphene fails to contain it.) And,
solid-state H2 storage appears to be viable, and is currently being
developed, only requiring warming to be released. So, progress is being
made in the storage of H2.

The difficulty of transportation of H2 by tanker truck appears to be similar
to gasoline. But, unlike petroleum-base fuels, H2 can be created at the
point of use, so no transport is necessary.

Personally, I don't advocate burning H2, not only because of the production
of NOx (bad stuff, requiring expensive catalytic-converters on current
internal-combustion engines), but because of the inherent poor efficiency
(20-30%). Rather, I see fuel-cell technology as far preferable, but
currently, with some problems in efficiency and maintenance
(electrode-degradation contamination of electrolyte, etc).

I view the "Hydrogen truly is nature's fuel." statement as somewhat valid
from a quantum physics standpoint. For me, the beauty of the H2O -> H2 +O
-> H2O cycle is its fundamental simplicity. And, if the waste heat can be
put to productive use, as in the brewery example, H2 production efficiency
can apparently be doubled. My thinking is that, burning any fuel in
atmospheric air is objectionable, because Earth's biosphere (upon which all
life shares and depends) is a closed system, and fundamentally
unsustainable. As a professional engineered, I'm sure you understand that.
In that light, I believe the current failure to capture the electrolyzed O2
is wasteful...

Although the documentary showed H2/air fuel-cells being routinely used
indoors, I have a bit of trepidation in the potential for an explosion in
the event of a H2 leak; but that can be addressed (with some added expense).
Your statement indicating that hydrogen in quantities sufficient to be mined
have SUPPOSEDLY been discovered, is news to me. Was that stated in the
video? It seems unlikely that such a molecularly light gas could be
contained to any significant extent naturally/geologically.

The current burgeoning development of H2 as the "fuel of the future" by so
many reputable firms (Rolls Royce, Airbus, ...) leads me to believe that
their engineers's analysis has shown it to be worth the R&D expense at
least.

We are truly fortunate to live in a time of such explosive (excuse the pun)
technologic revolution. Now, if only the political arena (and humankind's
baser instincts) could evolve out of the dark-ages ...

Big-Oil's disgusting disinformation assault on climate science out of
their obscene profits, federal subsidies, abysmally unfair Income Tax
payments is exposed in this vide: https://youtu.be/xgZC6da4mco

What the Fossil Fuel Industry Doesn't Want You To Know:
https://youtu.be/xgZC6da4mco?si=nzY6dv0kka-leK4c

Perhaps artificial intelligence holds the answer.

Best regards,
Larry

Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day

<caal1k-6p7g.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 12:25:18 -0800
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sun, 5 Nov 2023 20:25 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:

<snip old crap>

> Jim,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to view and analyze the video and offering
> your valuable critique.
>
> With the current price of solar panels at less than a dollar per Watt, I
> don't see the cost of the energy to produce hydrogen as a significant
> barrier, as solar could power a 70?80% efficient electrolyzer for decades

The price of solar panels is but a small fraction of the total cost for
an installed system that produces usefull solar electricity.

> (during sunny weather, of course). There is also
> https://newatlas.com/energy/aluminum-gallium-hydrogen-powder/ . And,
> although the methane reforming method of H2 production produces CO2 (an
> arguably objectionable byproduct), in the brewery use-case, that CO2 was
> actually captured and sold. The fact that methane is almost universally
> available in urban environments does make it a viable consideration as a
> source for H2 in specific cases.

Whoopee.

>
> The difficulty in storage of electricity is the heart of the issue. And, not
> surprisingly, H2 does have storage issues, however I don't seem them as
> insurmountable.

Nothing seems insumoutable to someone that has to neither design
something nor pay for it to be built.

> LH2 can be held at ambient pressure in a Dewar for a
> considerable tens of days without significant loss. Pressurized H2 is shown
> to be routinely stored in steel tanks, so embrittlement seems to have been
> addressed. (Unfortunately, even graphene fails to contain it.) And,
> solid-state H2 storage appears to be viable, and is currently being
> developed, only requiring warming to be released. So, progress is being
> made in the storage of H2.

Yeah, just like working fuion energy, which will be here any day now and
has been for a significant portion of a century.

>
> The difficulty of transportation of H2 by tanker truck appears to be similar
> to gasoline. But, unlike petroleum-base fuels, H2 can be created at the
> point of use, so no transport is necessary.

Assuming one has empty land at the point of use.

>
> Personally, I don't advocate burning H2, not only because of the production
> of NOx (bad stuff, requiring expensive catalytic-converters on current
> internal-combustion engines), but because of the inherent poor efficiency
> (20-30%). Rather, I see fuel-cell technology as far preferable, but
> currently, with some problems in efficiency and maintenance
> (electrode-degradation contamination of electrolyte, etc).

Yeah, hydrogen fuel cells, yet another technology that will be here any
day now.

>
> I view the "Hydrogen truly is nature's fuel." statement as somewhat valid
> from a quantum physics standpoint. For me, the beauty of the H2O -> H2 +O
> -> H2O cycle is its fundamental simplicity. And, if the waste heat can be
> put to productive use, as in the brewery example, H2 production efficiency
> can apparently be doubled. My thinking is that, burning any fuel in
> atmospheric air is objectionable, because Earth's biosphere (upon which all
> life shares and depends) is a closed system, and fundamentally
> unsustainable. As a professional engineered, I'm sure you understand that.
> In that light, I believe the current failure to capture the electrolyzed O2
> is wasteful...

Depends on what there is that can be done with the O2.

I think using expensive electricity to convert H2O to H2 and O2 is just
plain silly for any application other than a welding torch.

>
> Although the documentary showed H2/air fuel-cells being routinely used
> indoors, I have a bit of trepidation in the potential for an explosion in
> the event of a H2 leak; but that can be addressed (with some added expense).

And where do you put this fuel cell that will be here any day now?

Have you any clue how big a useful fuel cell is or how much heat they
generate?

> Your statement indicating that hydrogen in quantities sufficient to be mined
> have SUPPOSEDLY been discovered, is news to me. Was that stated in the
> video? It seems unlikely that such a molecularly light gas could be
> contained to any significant extent naturally/geologically.

Mined H2 has been used on the island of Mali since 1987 to run an old
Ford car engine to drive a generator to provide electricity to the
village of Bourakébougou.

Unfortunately the spark plugs crapped out some years ago and they are
waiting for a fuel cell, which will arrive any day now.

Why they didn't just order a new set of plugs from Amazon I have no clue.

>
> The current burgeoning development of H2 as the "fuel of the future" by so
> many reputable firms (Rolls Royce, Airbus, ...) leads me to believe that
> their engineers's analysis has shown it to be worth the R&D expense at
> least.

Lots of companies spend lots of R&D money, especially when it comes from
government grants, and most of them could give a crap less if anything
comes from it as if not the troops got payed with free money.

>
> We are truly fortunate to live in a time of such explosive (excuse the pun)
> technologic revolution. Now, if only the political arena (and humankind's
> baser instincts) could evolve out of the dark-ages ...

As I see it, society is going backwards over "climate change" hysteria.

>
> Big-Oil's disgusting disinformation assault on climate science out of
> their obscene profits, federal subsidies, abysmally unfair Income Tax
> payments is exposed in this vide: https://youtu.be/xgZC6da4mco
>
> What the Fossil Fuel Industry Doesn't Want You To Know:
> https://youtu.be/xgZC6da4mco?si=nzY6dv0kka-leK4c

Nice screed.

>
> Perhaps artificial intelligence holds the answer.

Not a snowball's chance in hell.

First you need a well defined question.

>
> Best regards,
> Larry

Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2023 08:21:09 -0800
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 by: Larry Dighera - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 16:21 UTC

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 12:25:18 -0800, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Yeah, just like working fuion energy, which will be here any day now and
>has been for a significant portion of a century.

Now that you mention it ...

Subject: Underwriters Laboratories Certifies ENG8 500% Fusion Success!
From: Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2023 17:20:33 -0700

Breakthrough or Pump and Dump?

https://interestingengineering.com/newsletters/iframe?newsletter_id=1009

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/fusion-energy-company-claims-milestone

Startup using water as nuclear fuel claims net energy gain milestone
ENG8 says it can generate five times as much power as it puts into its
fusion energy process.
Ameya Paleja
Ameya Paleja
Published: Nov 02, 2023 11:00 AM EST
INNOVATION

twitter

Artist's illustration of an atomic nucleus
Artist's illustration of an atomic nucleus
Cinefootage Visuals

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ENG8, a fusion energy company based in Gibraltar, has claimed to have
consistently obtained a five-time energy gain from its experiments. The
company's claims were validated at the Culham Innovation Centre in
Oxfordshire, one of the leading fusion centers under the UK Atomic Energy
Authority, the company press release said.

Nuclear fusion offers a non-polluting and less risky method to meet the
world's energy demands. While the process has been ongoing on the Sun for
billions of years, humanity is still trying to perfect how it can replicated
on Earth.

Research in the area has focused on using magnets and lasers to create
plasma where nuclei of smaller atoms can be fused to create energy. However,
energy gain has not been achieved through these approaches so far. This
means that the energy spent to create fusion energy is much higher than the
energy generated. Therefore, a claim that energy output is five times more
than that put in is a major milestone that energy companies around the globe
would be interested in.

SEE ALSO

https://eng8.energy/fusion-developer-hits-world-first-independently-verified-generation-milestone/

Fusion developer hits world-first independently verified generation
milestone
by Jane Maher in ENG8 News
on October 27, 2023

Fusion energy specialist, ENG8, has demonstrated an electrical energy output
five times greater than the energy used in this ground-breaking, independent
validation at Culham Innovation Centre in Oxfordshire, one of the top five
leading fusion centres in the world, and home to the UK’s Atomic Energy
Authority.

During each of the three tests, lasting approximately 10 minutes each,
ENG8’s ‘EnergiCell’ consistently scored an electrical energy output of five
– one unit of electrical energy in, and five units of electrical energy,
created by fusion, coming out.

The testing was conducted by Underwriters Laboratories, the largest
independent US certification agency.

Alan Smith, CEO/Sec. International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear
Science (ISCMNS), said: “I visited Culham Innovation Centre to observe three
test runs. All three concluded with higher temperatures in the output side
calorimeter than on the input side, so it is clear that comparative
thermometry indicates an energy gain. This new work is supported by many
previous studies going back decades.

“Most encouragingly, a representative of Underwriters Laboratories also
attended and said that their tests of the device indicated a COP (Q) of five
plus the possibility to improve that figure even further.”

This is sufficient to enable the EnergiCell-powered power plants to be
self-powering in 2024 and capable of commercial sales of emission-free
energy. Still to be determined by manufacturing and distribution costs,
ENG8’s EnergiCells are on track to provide a low-cost and secure source of
energy for both domestic and commercial users.

Valeria Tyutina, CEO at ENG8, said: “The results are quite brilliant, the
stability of the fusion reaction was incredible, and this development can
make the biggest difference to climate change of any other technology on
earth. It changes everything – faster than you think.”

Watch the video here: https://youtu.be/SVy3IExRhI8?si=_boFYJAMCuMlZTe-

0:00
[Music]
0:00
hi there I'm Nick dick I'm director of
0:02
investor relations at NJ today again we
0:07
are at colum Science Park home to the UK
0:11
atomic energy agency and today we're
0:14
getting the electricity to electricity
0:18
energy cell tested by Underwriters
0:20
Laboratories and I've just heard that
0:22
it's done a q value of plus five on or
0:25
around that for the last 10 minutes
0:27
that's a complete Game Changer yeah my
0:31
company UL is the uh the the largest
0:35
company in the United States dedicated
0:37
to the certification uh uh process all
0:41
the measurements was uh appropriate and
0:45
uh the results is uh is uh quite
0:49
brilliant for sure is is is five but I
0:52
think can be can be more than five Q
0:56
value of five one unit energy in to get
1:00
things going and five units of energy
1:05
liberated by a fusion process and the
1:07
stability of that Fusion was just
1:09
remarkable um to watch it happen I'm an
1:12
engineer so I look at things from an
1:14
engineering point of view um I I think
1:17
this could make the biggest difference
1:18
the climate change of any other
1:20
technology on the face of the Earth this
1:23
changes everything really um but it
1:26
changes things in other ways that you
1:29
might
1:31
expect which I'm coming to terms with
1:34
now it will effectively democratize
1:37
energy throughout the world the the
1:40
ability to produce energy in a
1:43
standalone fashion it affect so many
1:47
things energy cell as well as
1:51
providing non
1:54
interrupted baseload power constant
1:58
power it's also a hugely decentralized
2:01
solution my sense is that this is
2:04
another Frontiers land technology where
2:07
some people dismiss it because they
2:08
don't understand the mechanism but the
2:11
proof is there you know we saw it today
2:13
now this decentralization is really
2:16
really important because the grid has
2:19
lots of bottlenecks in it and we need to
2:22
spend
2:24
billions uh adding new 500 KV 1,000 KV
2:29
uh line
2:30
to get renewable
2:32
energy down from where it's generated to
2:36
where it's needed things like electrical
2:38
vehicle Chargers you can't connect them
2:40
to the grid so in this country there's
2:43
enormous problems because you can't
2:45
charge your cars and as you know this is
2:48
leading to some mad situations where
2:51
wind farms are turned off or
2:53
curtailed uh as they say in the industry
2:57
because either it's going to fry the
2:59
grid and they they can't get it through
3:01
the system so people are coming up with
3:02
all sorts of crazy Solutions like diesel
3:05
generators to charge your electric
3:08
car you're talking about an exponential
3:12
growth to decentralized for every home
3:14
every car everyone will have this and it
3:17
will happen a lot faster than we think
3:19
you can have one on the back of your
3:21
house provides all of your electricity
3:24
and heat because once it started it
3:27
never has to stop as far as I'm
3:28
concerned it exceeded my expectations
3:31
the unit was able to run seamlessly and
3:34
uh yeah we got to see it in action which
3:36
was you know more than I I could have
3:39
could have hoped for it's very very
3:40
exciting because this technology
3:42
certainly even today the results they're
3:44
seeing um had just never been done
3:47
before ever anywhere in the world the
3:49
impact that Fusion could have on a
3:51
global scale there's so many people
3:53
without electricity I'm a
3:56
biotechnologist um chemical engineer and
3:59
uh General technology Scout at the
4:01
moment working for companies in the UK
4:04
and the Middle East to bring um the best
4:08
decarbonization Technologies to Market
4:10
as quickly as possible very impressive
4:12
it's a fantastic team um incredible so
4:15
many man Decades of absolutely top level
4:18
experience part of my role hopefully
4:21
will be to help scale that up and
4:22
commercialize it as quickly as possible
4:25
um into different applications
4:27
industrial applications and for other
4:29
consumer applications and this could be
4:32
you know the Holy Grail to help solve
4:34
that I was one of the early investors
4:36
into the into the technology and I've
4:38
seen it go from early birth into what I
4:41
would call a Quantum leap for mankind I
4:44
think we could have an intermediate
4:46
product um shippable within 12 to 18
4:49
months I'm backing this with uh with you
4:52
know my time and my effort and and money
4:55
because I think it's the right thing to
4:56
do the um fossil fuel industry is has
4:59
been there for us for 300 years it's
5:02
enabled the Industrial Revolution our
5:04
society wouldn't exist as it does now
5:06
without it but you know we're coming to
5:08
the end of when that's viable um and
5:10
this is a transition in human society um
5:14
it's been a long time coming but I think
5:16
everybody's ready for it and without any
5:18
doubt now we we know that we're in the
5:20
fast lane I'm hoping to see my
5:22
investment take off big time so and I
5:24
want to be part of it too we are going
5:27
on a road show in um December early
5:31
January um specifically to America and
5:33
to other countries as well to promote um
5:36
our business and to raise additional
5:39
Finance from institutional investors
5:41
here we've got Commonwealth Fusion
5:43
systems Commonwealth Fusion specializes
5:45
in hot Fusion company's worth uh $7
5:49
billion uh or Circa $7 billion $7
5:52
billion in change I heard somebody was
5:54
talking about a billion at a rather High
5:57
valuation um well you have to look at
6:00
the market because in um in a technology
6:04
sector we are working in um the only way
6:07
is to use current comparatives and um uh
6:11
there are many companies which are valed
6:13
over a billion which work in this sector
6:16
and they have not yet achieved the
6:19
results we managed to
6:25
achieve
======================================


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Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
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Subject: Re: Hydrogen is used safely all around you every day
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 08:38:56 -0800
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 by: Jim Pennino - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 16:38 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 12:25:18 -0800, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, just like working fuion energy, which will be here any day now and
>>has been for a significant portion of a century.
>
>
> Now that you mention it ...
>
>
> Subject: Underwriters Laboratories Certifies ENG8 500% Fusion Success!
> From: Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net>
> Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2023 17:20:33 -0700
>
>
> Breakthrough or Pump and Dump?

Like I said, any day now and has been for a significant portion of a century.

Get back to me when ground is broken for the construction of a
commercial fusion generation plant connected to the grid.

I feel it will be a long wait.

<snip breathless press releases>

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