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interests / sci.anthropology.paleo / Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

SubjectAuthor
* Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhônelittor...@gmail.com
`* Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follPrimum Sapienti
 `* Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follittor...@gmail.com
  +* Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follPrimum Sapienti
  |`* Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follittor...@gmail.com
  | `* Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follPrimum Sapienti
  |  `* Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône folJTEM is so reasonable
  |   `* Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follPrimum Sapienti
  |    +- Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follittor...@gmail.com
  |    `- Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône folJTEM is so reasonable
  `- Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône follittor...@gmail.com

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Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône

<1049673e-ff70-43f4-b3eb-9dad29df99e4n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Thu, 8 Jun 2023 16:11 UTC

Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras:
the paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3
Kate Britton cs 2023 J.hum.Evol.174, 103292

The exploitation of mid- and large-sized herbivores (ungulates) was central to hominin subsistence across Late Pleistocene Europe. Reconstructing the paleoecology of prey-taxa is key to better understanding procurement strategies, decisions and behaviors, and the isotope analysis of faunal bones and teeth found at archaeological sites represent a powerful means of accessing information about past faunal behaviors. These isotope zooarchaeological approaches also have a near-unique ability to reveal environmental conditions contemporary to the human activities that produced these remains. Here, we present the results of a multi-isotope, multitissue study of ungulate remains from the Middle Paleolithic site of Abri du Maras, southern France, providing new insights into the living landscapes of the Rhône Valley during MIS 3 (level 4.2=55±2 to 42±3ka; level 4.1=46±3 to 40±3ka). Isotope data (carbon, nitrogen) reveal the dietary niches of different ungulate taxa, including the now-extinct giant deer (Megaloceros). Oxygen isotope data are consistent with a mild seasonal climate during level 4.2, where horse (Equus), bison (Bison), and red deer (Cervus elaphus) were exploited year-round. Strontium and sulfur isotope analyses provide new evidence for behavioral plasticity in Late Pleistocene European reindeer (Rangifer) between level 4.2 and level 4.1, indicating a change from the migratory to the sedentary ecotype. In level 4.1, the strong seasonal nature of reindeer exploitation, combined with their nonmigratory behavior, is consistent with a seasonally restricted use of the site by Neanderthals at that time or the preferential hunting of reindeer when in peak physical condition during the autumn.

____

Neandertals were no systematic hunters of terrestrial herbivores, of course: isotope analyses are not only super-carnivorous (you can't be more carnivorous than e.g. felids), but were perfectly between marine & freshwater foods: most likely (e.g. see my book), neandertals seasonally followed the rivers (+ salmon?) inland. This also best explains neandertal pachyosteosclerosis (shallow-diving), huge brain (DHA), large lungs, external nose + large paranasal air sinuses, more horizontal femoral necks (lateral leg movements), shorter tibias than H.sapiens, rel.long first & 5th digital rays of hands and feet, etc. IOW, this paper beautifully confirms our view of neandertals seasonally following the rivers inland. Google e.g. "gondwanatalks verhaegen". :-)

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

<u739l1$3ksfb$1@dont-email.me>

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From: inval...@invalid.invalid (Primum Sapienti)
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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_foll
owing_the_herds
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 23:13:02 -0600
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 by: Primum Sapienti - Fri, 23 Jun 2023 05:13 UTC

littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras:
> the paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3
> Kate Britton cs 2023 J.hum.Evol.174, 103292

Posted here last December.

Here's the link AND the *real* abstract

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724842200152X

Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras: The
paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal
subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3.

Abstract

The exploitation of mid- and large-sized herbivores (ungulates) was
central to hominin subsistence across Late Pleistocene Europe.
Reconstructing the paleoecology of prey-taxa is key to better
understanding procurement strategies, decisions and behaviors, and the
isotope analysis of faunal bones and teeth found at archaeological
sites represent a powerful means of accessing information about past
faunal behaviors. These isotope zooarchaeological approaches also have
a near-unique ability to reveal environmental conditions contemporary
to the human activities that produced these remains. Here, we present
the results of a multi-isotope, multitissue study of ungulate remains
from the Middle Paleolithic site of Abri du Maras, southern France,
providing new insights into the living landscapes of the Rhône Valley
during MIS 3 (level 4.2 = 55 +/- 2 to 42 ± 3 ka; level 4.1 = 46 +/- 3
to 40 +/- 3 ka). Isotope data (carbon, nitrogen) reveal the dietary
niches of different ungulate taxa, including the now-extinct giant
deer (Megaloceros). Oxygen isotope data are consistent with a mild
seasonal climate during level 4.2, where horse (Equus), bison (Bison),
and red deer (Cervus elaphus) were exploited year-round. Strontium and
sulfur isotope analyses provide new evidence for behavioral plasticity
in Late Pleistocene European reindeer (Rangifer) between level 4.2 and
level 4.1, indicating a change from the migratory to the sedentary
ecotype. In level 4.1, the strong seasonal nature of reindeer
exploitation, combined with their nonmigratory behavior, is consistent
with a seasonally restricted use of the site by Neanderthals at that
time or the preferential hunting of reindeer when in peak physical
condition during the autumn.

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

<a295edc6-ff9a-4395-ba24-c8d39007500fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_fol
lowing_the_herds
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Fri, 23 Jun 2023 14:42 UTC

> > Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras:
> > the paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3
> > Kate Britton cs 2023 J.hum.Evol.174, 103292

somebody:
> Here's the link AND the *real* abstract
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724842200152X

Yes, the Rhône! :-)
Hn might have scavenged or hunted ungulate herds sometimes (Hn smarter than Hs?),
Hn were no systematic hunters of terrestrial herbivores, of course
(only retarded afro+anthropocentrically biased people still believe this nonsense):
Hn isotope analyses were not only *super*carnivorous (but you can't be more carnivorous than e.g. felids):
the isotopes were perfectly halfway marine & freshwater foods:
most likely (e.g. see my book), Hn seasonally followed the rivers (+ salmon??) inland.
This also easily explains in Hn e.g.
- ear exostoses (cold water irrigation),
- pachyo-steo-sclerosis (shallow-diving),
- huge brain (DHA),
- platycephaly & foramen a bit more dorsally on the skull base,
- large lungs >Hs,
- big external nose (piriform aperture++) + large paranasal air sinuses,
- flating ilia + more horizontal femoral necks (lateral leg movements),
- shorter tibias <Hs,
- rel.long first & 5th digital rays of hands & feet >Hs, etc.

IOW, this paper beautifully confirms our view of Hn seasonally following the Rhône inland (or the Meuse, or Rhine->Neander...)
Google e.g. "gondwanatalks verhaegen". :-)

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_foll
owing_the_herds
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 by: Primum Sapienti - Sun, 2 Jul 2023 04:38 UTC

littor...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras:
>>> the paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3
>>> Kate Britton cs 2023 J.hum.Evol.174, 103292
>
> somebody:
>> Here's the link AND the *real* abstract
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724842200152X
>
> Yes, the Rhône! :-)
> Hn might have scavenged or hunted ungulate herds sometimes (Hn smarter than Hs?),
> Hn were no systematic hunters of terrestrial herbivores, of course

You have zero evidence of that. Pure just so story on your part.

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_fol
lowing_the_herds
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Sun, 2 Jul 2023 14:55 UTC

> >>> Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras:
> >>> the paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3
> >>> Kate Britton cs 2023 J.hum.Evol.174, 103292

somebody:
> >> Here's the link AND the *real* abstract
> >> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724842200152X

> > Yes, the Rhône! :-)
> > Hn might have scavenged or hunted ungulate herds sometimes (Hn smarter than Hs?),
> > Hn were no systematic hunters of terrestrial herbivores, of course

kudu runner:
> You have zero evidence of that. Pure just so story on your part.

Is there somebody here more stupid than this idiot who calls himself "primum sapienti"?? :-DDD

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

<uaclhq$3v3e9$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_foll
owing_the_herds
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 by: Primum Sapienti - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 04:20 UTC

littor...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras:
>>>>> the paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3
>>>>> Kate Britton cs 2023 J.hum.Evol.174, 103292
>
> somebody:
>>>> Here's the link AND the *real* abstract
>>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724842200152X
>
>>> Yes, the Rhône! :-)
>>> Hn might have scavenged or hunted ungulate herds sometimes (Hn smarter than Hs?),
>>> Hn were no systematic hunters of terrestrial herbivores, of course
>
> kudu runner:
>> You have zero evidence of that. Pure just so story on your part.
>
> Is there somebody here more stupid than this idiot who calls himself "primum sapienti"?? :-DDD
>

You think they wore fish skins in winter? Moving into regions with more
varied seasons - like winter - required means (technology, that is) to
deal with it. With something like a tribal group, scavenging would
be inadequate and systematic hunting would be needed.

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_fol
lowing_the_herds
From: jte...@gmail.com (JTEM is so reasonable)
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 by: JTEM is so reasonabl - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 23:43 UTC

Primum Sapienti wrote:

> You think

Yes he does. And that clearly upsets you.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/724349278678614016

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

<eeebb823-7d1d-433a-807f-15a8a5ef6a79n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_fol
lowing_the_herds
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 09:40 UTC

> > > Multi-isotope zooarchaeological investigations at Abri du Maras:
> > > the paleoecological and paleoenvironmental context of Neanderthal subsistence strategies in the Rhône Valley during MIS 3
> > > Kate Britton cs 2023 J.hum.Evol.174, 103292

> > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724842200152X

> Yes, the Rhône! :-)
> Hn might have scavenged or hunted ungulate herds sometimes (Hn smarter than Hs?),

Why did Hn have larger brains than Hs?
-larger body? (shorter legs but deeper & broader body)
-still more aquatic? (pachyosteosclerosis He>Hn>Hs)
-more varied lifestyle than Hs? seasonally following the Rhine etc. inland??
-did Hn already speak?? use fire?? ...??

> Hn were no systematic hunters of terrestrial herbivores, of course
> (only retarded afro+anthropocentrically biased people still believe this nonsense):
> Hn isotope analyses were not only *super*carnivorous (but you can't be more carnivorous than e.g. felids):
> the isotopes were perfectly halfway marine & freshwater foods:
> most likely (e.g. see my book), Hn seasonally followed the rivers (+ salmon??) inland.
> This also easily explains in Hn e.g.
> - ear exostoses (cold water irrigation),
> - pachyo-steo-sclerosis (shallow-diving),
> - huge brain (DHA),
> - platycephaly & foramen a bit more dorsally on the skull base,
> - large lungs >Hs,
> - big external nose (piriform aperture++) + large paranasal air sinuses,
> - flating ilia + more horizontal femoral necks (lateral leg movements),
> - shorter tibias <Hs,
> - rel.long first & 5th digital rays of hands & feet >Hs, etc.

Sorry, "flating ilia" should be "flaring ilia" (iliac blades), of course:
lateral leg movements (= NOT for running, of course, as some retarded kudu-runners still believe).

> IOW, this paper beautifully confirms our view of Hn seasonally following the Rhône inland (or the Meuse, or Rhine->Neander...)
> Google e.g. "gondwanatalks verhaegen".
https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

:-)

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

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From: inval...@invalid.invalid (Primum Sapienti)
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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_foll
owing_the_herds
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 by: Primum Sapienti - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 04:35 UTC

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> You think
>
> Yes

Thank you!

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

<24911e51-e18d-4f72-aa25-55a7bf5c7c68n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_fol
lowing_the_herds
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Sun, 13 Aug 2023 09:02 UTC

Op zaterdag 12 augustus 2023 om 06:35:16 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:
> JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> > Primum Sapienti wrote:

> >> You think

> > Yes

> Thank you!

Thank you: this is what you snipped:

> Yes, the Rhône! :-)
> Hn might have scavenged or hunted ungulate herds sometimes (Hn smarter than Hs?),

Why did Hn have larger brains than Hs?
-larger body? (shorter legs but deeper & broader body)
-still more aquatic? (pachyosteosclerosis He>Hn>Hs)
-more varied lifestyle than Hs? seasonally following the Rhine etc. inland??
-did Hn already speak? use fire? ...??

> Hn were no systematic hunters of terrestrial herbivores, of course
> (only retarded afro+anthropocentrically biased people still believe this nonsense):
> Hn isotope analyses were not only *super*carnivorous (but you can't be more carnivorous than e.g. felids):
> the isotopes were perfectly halfway marine & freshwater foods:
> most likely (e.g. see my book), Hn seasonally followed the rivers (+ salmon??) inland.
> This also easily explains in Hn e.g.
> - ear exostoses (cold water irrigation),
> - pachyo-steo-sclerosis (shallow-diving),
> - huge brain (DHA),
> - platycephaly & foramen a bit more dorsally on the skull base,
> - large lungs >Hs,
> - big external nose (piriform aperture++) + large paranasal air sinuses,
> - flating ilia + more horizontal femoral necks (lateral leg movements),
> - shorter tibias <Hs,
> - rel.long first & 5th digital rays of hands & feet >Hs, etc.

Sorry, "flating ilia" should be "flaring ilia" (iliac blades), of course:
lateral leg movements (= NOT for running, of course, as some retarded kudu-runners still believe).

> IOW, this paper beautifully confirms our view of Hn seasonally following the Rhône inland (or the Meuse, or Rhine->Neander...)
> Google e.g. "gondwanatalks verhaegen".
https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

:-)

Re: Neandertals: seasonal migration along Rhône following the herds

<fb2e8abf-4641-4d10-addc-5d9b61c8eb5cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re:_Neandertals:_seasonal_migration_along_Rhône_fol
lowing_the_herds
From: jte...@gmail.com (JTEM is so reasonable)
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 by: JTEM is so reasonabl - Mon, 14 Aug 2023 05:26 UTC

OCPD, Primum Sapienti wrote:

[...]

When you have nothing to say, and you usually don't, it would be
best for you if you said nothing.

One thing you might want to consider, speaking rhetorically here,
is that we so called moderns aren't descended from Neanderthals,
we're descended from SOME neanderthals. And the Neanderthals
we are descended from would overwhelming be those exploiting
marine resources.

Yes, because of the glacial cycle, because of the periodic
catastrophes such as Super Volcanoes...

I mean, you savanna idiots are trained to look at the here and now,
compare the past to this moment. And that's stupid.

Did you know that there has been not one VEI-8 eruption during the
whole of the Holocene, AND that this is unusual? Earth's history
tells us that they should be more frequent than we've seen!

Well the Holocene is popularly dated back only about 12k years
ago. So, the fact is that if Neanderthals were around for some
120k years then they should have seen AT LEAST 10 VEI8 super
volcanoes, all causing very sudden and very catastrophic earth
changes. And the ones best suited to survive were the ones
exploiting marine resources, yes, and the ones furthest south,
along the mediterranean, into the Levant, maybe North Africa...

Oops, sorry, I'm discussing models here, REAL WORLD MODELS,
and how Aquatic Ape fits in. You prefer the simplicity of
regurgitating the headlines of stories you never read, much less
were capable of understanding, as you parrot the status quo.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/725527049879552000

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