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tech / sci.lang / Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"

SubjectAuthor
* Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"Christian Weisgerber
`* Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"Antonio Marques
 `- Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"Christian Weisgerber

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Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"

<slrnunoogv.227u.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>

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From: nad...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:26:39 -0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <slrnunoogv.227u.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
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 by: Christian Weisgerber - Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:26 UTC

On 2023-12-14, henh...@gmail.com <henhanna@gmail.com> wrote:

>> (Bedeutung) wird häufig, besonders am Telefon, für »zwei« gebraucht, um Verwechselungen mit der Zahl »drei« auszuschließen
>
> many Germans say Zwo for "two"
>
> -------- is Zwo derived from English "two" or somewhere else?

They are cognates.

In old or conservative Indo-European languages, the small number
words are declined like adjectives. Old High German declined 2 and
3 in all cases and genders. The cardinal number 2 was still declined
for gender in Early Modern German up to the 18th century:

zween (masculine), zwo (feminine), zwei (neuter)

The neuter form eventually prevailed. The original feminine, no
longer understood as such, was revived in telephone and radio use.

Both the German and English words are descended from a common
Proto-Germanic origin. The Old English nominative forms were

twēġen (m), twā (f), tū/twā (n)

"Twain" is from "twēġen". "Two" must derive from "twā", although
the sound development looks irregular to me.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"

<uli9it$21fp6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: no_em...@invalid.invalid (Antonio Marques)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 19:31:41 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Antonio Marques - Fri, 15 Dec 2023 19:31 UTC

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> On 2023-12-14, henh...@gmail.com <henhanna@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> (Bedeutung) wird häufig, besonders am Telefon, für »zwei«
>>> gebraucht, um Verwechselungen mit der Zahl »drei« auszuschließen
>>
>> many Germans say Zwo for "two"
>>
>> -------- is Zwo derived from English "two" or somewhere else?
>
> They are cognates.
>
> In old or conservative Indo-European languages, the small number
> words are declined like adjectives. Old High German declined 2 and
> 3 in all cases and genders. The cardinal number 2 was still declined
> for gender in Early Modern German up to the 18th century:
>
> zween (masculine), zwo (feminine), zwei (neuter)
>
> The neuter form eventually prevailed. The original feminine, no
> longer understood as such, was revived in telephone and radio use.
>
> Both the German and English words are descended from a common
> Proto-Germanic origin. The Old English nominative forms were
>
> twēġen (m), twā (f), tū/twā (n)
>
> "Twain" is from "twēġen". "Two" must derive from "twā", although
> the sound development looks irregular to me.

Why twā rather than tū?

Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"

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From: nad...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: many Germans say Zwo for "two"
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 21:16:54 -0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <slrnunpgi6.2ahi.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
References: <1bdaf908-b0ba-4652-87e4-34f1d91ec841n@googlegroups.com>
<slrnunoogv.227u.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de> <uli9it$21fp6$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Christian Weisgerber - Fri, 15 Dec 2023 21:16 UTC

On 2023-12-15, Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> twēġen (m), twā (f), tū/twā (n)
>>
>> "Twain" is from "twēġen". "Two" must derive from "twā", although
>> the sound development looks irregular to me.
>
> Why twā rather than tū?

* Because dictionaries say so. :-)
* twā was already replacing neuter tū in OE prose (per Wiktionary).
* It matches hwā > who.

The expected outcome of OE ā is PDE /oʊ/, e.g. OE tā > PDE toe.
Maybe the w had a raising effect on the vowel before disappearing.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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