"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
my pretext for composing this piece..."

This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
translated from French.
The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with
cooking.

Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for
various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
see any of them being described as "pans". (In fact the only musical use
of "pan" I can think of is for steel-band instruments, which would not
fit here.)

I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
(ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

The passage is probably from an autobiographical work (perhaps
_Chroniques de ma vie_), but I don't have access to any of those.

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> "The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
> automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
> my pretext for composing this piece..."
>
> This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
> It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
> translated from French.
> The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
> find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with
> cooking.
>
> Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
> as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for
> various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
> see any of them being described as "pans". (In fact the only musical use
> of "pan" I can think of is for steel-band instruments, which would not
> fit here.)
>
> I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
> (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.
>
> The passage is probably from an autobiographical work (perhaps
> _Chroniques de ma vie_), but I don't have access to any of those.
>
>
>

Could it have something to do with Pan pipes?

Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:28:32 +1300: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
scribeva:

>"The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
>automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
>my pretext for composing this piece..."

Automatic drums of a 'draaiorgel'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6CE9NG898&t=300
(What's that in English? Barrel organ, roller organ, crank organ, says
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_organ . Never heard of
those.)

>This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
>It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
>translated from French.
>The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
>find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with
>cooking.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:

> [...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
> (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.

(i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette tradition.
La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites tavernes
nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai spécialement
pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet
instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»

Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is itself a
citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the reference to
check.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false

(ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for casserolée:

B.− P. anal.
1. Péjoratif
a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos mécaniques et les
casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky, Chroniques de
ma vie,1931, p. 150). »

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e

So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years since
I’ve took much interest in French. If I were going to bet I’d say it’s
old-fashioned slang.

https://en.langenscheidt.com/french-german/casserole lists without comment
Klavier (piano) as a translation in this meaning, though marks the (French)
usage as colloquial.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

On 20/12/2023 5:13 p.m., Antonio Marques wrote:
> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> "The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
>> automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
>> my pretext for composing this piece..."
>>
>> This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
>> It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
>> translated from French.
>> The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
>> find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with
>> cooking.
>>
>> Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
>> as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for
>> various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
>> see any of them being described as "pans". (In fact the only musical use
>> of "pan" I can think of is for steel-band instruments, which would not
>> fit here.)
>>
>> I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
>> (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.
>>
>> The passage is probably from an autobiographical work (perhaps
>> _Chroniques de ma vie_), but I don't have access to any of those.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Could it have something to do with Pan pipes?
>

Perhaps. That would fit with the organ-like devices, each pipe producing
one note.

I also came across this in OED:

pan, n.5
A Chinese percussion instrument used for beating time, made of a number
of wedge-shaped pieces of wood connected by a cord, one of which is
struck against the others by flicking the wrist. [1874-]

On 20/12/2023 9:58 p.m., Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:28:32 +1300: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
> scribeva:
>
>> "The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
>> automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
>> my pretext for composing this piece..."
>
> Automatic drums of a 'draaiorgel'?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6CE9NG898&t=300
> (What's that in English? Barrel organ, roller organ, crank organ, says
> Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_organ . Never heard of
> those.)

"Barrel organ" is the common expression I've seen. I have some little
records (EPs) of "draaiorgel" -- the Netherlands seems to be famous for
them -- and long ago I remember visiting a whole museum of them in (I
think) Utrecht.
>
>> This is Igor Stravinsky commenting on his Study for Pianola: "Madrid".
>> It's quoted in the liner notes to an old LP, which are clearly
>> translated from French.
>> The reference must be to some kind of mechanical musical device. I can't
>> find any use of "automatic pan(s)" in English except in connection with
>> cooking.
>

On 21/12/2023 7:02 a.m., Aidan Kehoe wrote:
>
> Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:
>
> > [...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
> > (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.
>
> (i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette tradition.
> La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos mécaniques et les
> casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites tavernes
> nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai spécialement
> pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet
> instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»
>
> Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is itself a
> citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the reference to
> check.
>
> https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false
>
>
> (ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for casserolée:
>
> B.− P. anal.
> 1. Péjoratif
> a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos mécaniques et les
> casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky, Chroniques de
> ma vie,1931, p. 150). »
>
> https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e
>
> So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years since
> I’ve took much interest in French. If I were going to bet I’d say it’s
> old-fashioned slang.
>
> https://en.langenscheidt.com/french-german/casserole lists without comment
> Klavier (piano) as a translation in this meaning, though marks the (French)
> usage as colloquial.
>

Great! Thank you.

On 2023-12-19, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

> "The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
> automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
> my pretext for composing this piece..."

That has to be some sort of percussion.

> Another translation of the same passage that I found online renders it
> as "orchestrinas". "Orchestrina" or "orchestrion" is an English term for
> various such things, but the ones shown are all organ-like, and I can't
> see any of them being described as "pans".

According to the various Wikipedia articles, orchestrions also had
percussion instruments.

| En Espagne, notamment à Madrid, des pianos mécaniques ambulants
| à manivelle, étaient souvent transportés sur charrettes à âne.
| De sonorité assez aigrelette très originale et caractéristique,
| bien que couvrant une tessiture complète jusqu'aux basses, ils
| étaient renforcés dans les aiguës, à l'instar de certains orgues
| limonaires, de petits xylophones mécaniques jouant simultanément
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_m%C3%A9canique#Organillo_en_Espagne

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Aidan Kehoe wrote:
>
> Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:
>
> > [...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so translated;
> > (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.
>
> (i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette tradition.
> La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos mécaniques et les
> casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites tavernes
> nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai spécialement
> pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet
> instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»
>
> Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is itself a
> citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the reference to
> check.
>
> https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false
>
> (ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for casserolée:
>
> B.− P. anal.
> 1. Péjoratif
> a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos mécaniques et les
> casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky, Chroniques de
> ma vie,1931, p. 150). »
>
> https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e
>
> So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years since

Perhaps not "a bad piano" but "a badly played
piano"? I believe this is the piece in question
(which I rather like)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14cJMZkHYE
Igor Stravinsky - Etude pour Pianola

and the text there further says

""Etude pour Pianola"(Этюд для Пианолы, 1917) is
music for the mechanical piano (player piano),
not for human. This piece was first published on
music roll in 1921 and the premier at Aeolian
Hall in London. Stravinsky visited Madrid in 1916
and was influenced by Spanish music. This etude
is also, and his autobiography states that "I
was influenced by the noise of the player piano
and orchestrion (music machine) played in the
streets and taverns".

which goes along with the wiki page for the piece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etude_pour_pianola
....
As Stravinsky was finishing Les Noces, he traveled
to Madrid and became inspired by Spanish music for
future compositions. This étude was commissioned
by Aeolian Company, as a demonstration piece for
their new sensible-to-dynamic-shadings player
piano. ... The étude was retitled "Madrid" ..."

Hmmm. So, the cacophony he heard was the
inspiration? Well, this is Igor "Rites of Spring"
Stravinsky ;)

> I’ve took much interest in French. If I were going to bet I’d say it’s
> old-fashioned slang.
>
> https://en.langenscheidt.com/french-german/casserole lists without comment
> Klavier (piano) as a translation in this meaning, though marks the (French)
> usage as colloquial.
>

There is one other itme of interest in that youtube
ext: "orchestrion (music machine)"

What the heck is that? And how many times did Stravinsky
talk about this darn etude like that?

Anyway

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrion

"Orchestrion is a generic name for a machine
that plays music and is designed to sound
like an orchestra or band."

On 21/12/2023 6:24 p.m., Tilde wrote:
> Aidan Kehoe wrote:
>>
>>   Ar an fichiú lá de mí na Nollaig, scríobh Ross Clark:
>>
>>   > [...] I'd like to know (i) what the French text said that was so
>> translated;
>>   > (ii) what sort of instrument/device Stravinsky was referring to.
>>
>> (i) « Je me fis, de mon côté, un plaisir de payer mon tribut à cette
>> tradition.
>> La cocasserie des mélanges inattendus exhibés par les pianos
>> mécaniques et les
>> casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid et dans ses petites
>> tavernes
>> nocturnes, me servit de prétexte pour cette pièce que je composai
>> spécialement
>> pour le pianola et qui ne fut éditée que sous forme de rouleau pour cet
>> instrument mécanique par Æolian, à Londres.»
>>
>> Igor Stravinsky: L’homme et son œuvre By Michel Philippot. This is
>> itself a
>> citation, likely from Chroniques de ma vie, but I can’t access the
>> reference to
>> check.
>>
>> https://books.google.ie/books?id=aJeDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=%22et+dans+ses+petites+tavernes%22&source=bl&ots=4r5Vtrgfjr&sig=ACfU3U0RgQZv916bkOyNBSQfOn35JoFtwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi52raAyp6DAxUJB8AKHa36APYQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q=%22et%20dans%20ses%20petites%20tavernes%22&f=false
>>
>>
>> (ii) From the Trésor de la langue française informatisé, entry for
>> casserolée:
>>
>> B.− P. anal.
>> 1. Péjoratif
>> a) [P. réf. au bruit désagréable] Mauvais piano. « Les pianos
>> mécaniques et les
>> casseroles automatiques dans les rues de Madrid (I. Stravinsky,
>> Chroniques de
>> ma vie,1931, p. 150). »
>>
>> https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/casserol%C3%A9e
>>
>> So a bad piano. It’s not a usage I’ve come across but it’s been years
>> since
>
> Perhaps not "a bad piano" but "a badly played
> piano"? I believe this is the piece in question
> (which I rather like)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14cJMZkHYE
> Igor Stravinsky - Etude pour Pianola
>
> and the text there further says
>
> ""Etude pour Pianola"(Этюд для Пианолы, 1917) is
> music for the mechanical piano (player piano),
> not for human. This piece was first published on
> music roll in 1921 and the premier at Aeolian
> Hall in London. Stravinsky visited Madrid in 1916
> and was influenced by Spanish music. This etude
> is also, and his autobiography states that "I
> was influenced by the noise of the player piano
> and orchestrion (music machine) played in the
> streets and taverns".
>
> which goes along with the wiki page for the piece
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etude_pour_pianola
> ...
> As Stravinsky was finishing Les Noces, he traveled
> to Madrid and became inspired by Spanish music for
> future compositions. This étude was commissioned
> by Aeolian Company, as a demonstration piece for
> their new sensible-to-dynamic-shadings player
> piano. ... The étude was retitled "Madrid" ..."
>
> Hmmm. So, the cacophony he heard was the
> inspiration? Well, this is Igor "Rites of Spring"
> Stravinsky ;)
>
>

Another thing that puzzled me about the record is that one Rex Lawson is
listed as _performer_ of the piece ("Madrid") -- on pianola! I thought
Stravinsky (who created the original roll) would have been the
performer. Did Lawson just pump the pedals? Or did he perhaps perform an
exact transcription of the pianola version on a regular piano?
This article seems to give some idea:

http://rexlawson.org/english/biog.html

Thu, 21 Dec 2023 10:55:04 +1300: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
scribeva:

>On 20/12/2023 9:58 p.m., Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:28:32 +1300: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
>> scribeva:
>>
>>> "The oddity of the unexpected mingling of the mechanical pianos and
>>> automatic pans of the streets and nocturnal taverns of Madrid served as
>>> my pretext for composing this piece..."
>>
>> Automatic drums of a 'draaiorgel'?
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6CE9NG898&t=300
>> (What's that in English? Barrel organ, roller organ, crank organ, says
>> Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_organ . Never heard of
>> those.)
>
>"Barrel organ" is the common expression I've seen. I have some little
>records (EPs) of "draaiorgel" -- the Netherlands seems to be famous for
>them -- and long ago I remember visiting a whole museum of them in (I
>think) Utrecht.

Yes, https://www.museumspeelklok.nl/
Formerly called "Van speelklok tot pierement".
Haarlem also has a specific Draaiorgelmuseum, I recently learned.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Wed, 20 Dec 2023 22:24:20 -0700: Tilde <invalide@invalid.invalid>
scribeva:

>Perhaps not "a bad piano" but "a badly played
>piano"? I believe this is the piece in question
>(which I rather like)

So do I.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14cJMZkHYE
>Igor Stravinsky - Etude pour Pianola

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com