Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
ex-president".

What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?

It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.

What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
can hardly be a sentence adverb.

Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

--
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to Hawk│/
blu.mɛin.dÊ°ak/│he/him/his/himself/
Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
(may cause stains—test in an inconspicuous area first)

Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
> de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
> construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
> ex-president".
>
> What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
>
> It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
> dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
> and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
> and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
>
> What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
> can hardly be a sentence adverb.
>
> Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

Yes ;)

In English that's usually expressed as "soon-to-be <fill
in the blank>" and ENglish dictionaries do indeed class
the word as an adverb

Such as,

"the soon to be married prince"

"the soon to be ex-minister of finance"

Ah, here we go:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/soon-to-be
Adjective
soon-to-be
Planned or destined to have a specified position or quality in the near future.

So here it's an adjective phrase and above it modifies
"prince" and "ex-minister of finance".

Tue, 9 Jan 2024 21:47:41 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
>de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
>construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
>ex-president".
>
>What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
>
>It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
>dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
>and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
>and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
>
>What does "soon" modify?

Ex.

>Lodged between determiner and noun, it
>can hardly be a sentence adverb.
>
>Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

Soon to be ex-minister. That solves it.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Tue, 9 Jan 2024 23:37:07 -0000 (UTC): Blue-Maned_Hawk
<bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

Agreed. Soon ex minister would then be the correct spelling.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Op 10/01/2024 om 0:37 schreef Blue-Maned_Hawk:
> I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

No, because there is also

"The then Minister" or alike.

But see Tilde's suggestion.

Even read in Spanish: things like

El entonces ministro
Los demás clientes
....

German adjectivises here(!):
Der hiesigen Minister
and then, soon, ...(?)

--
guido wugi

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
> de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
> construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
> ex-president".
>
> What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
>
> It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
> dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
> and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
> and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
>
> What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
> can hardly be a sentence adverb.
>
> Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?
>

I’m more used to seeing ‘the soon to be <something>’. Here, the fact that
the something is a negative may interfere.

Op 10/01/2024 om 12:05 schreef wugi:
> Op 10/01/2024 om 0:37 schreef Blue-Maned_Hawk:
>> I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-”
>> prefix.
>
> No, because there is also
>
> "The then Minister" or alike.
>
> But see Tilde's suggestion.
>
> Even read in Spanish: things like
>
> El entonces ministro
> Los demás clientes
> ...
>
> German adjectivises here(!):
> Der hiesigen Minister
> and then, soon, ...(?)

Just seen:
Der gestrigen Unfall.
Others? Ah, from my pocket dico:
baldig
Der morgige Tag...
Couldn't find dannig (der dannige Minister) though...

--
guido wugi

On 2024-01-09 21:47:41 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
> de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
> construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
> ex-president".
>
> What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
>
> It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
> dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
> and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
> and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
>
> What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
> can hardly be a sentence adverb.
>
> Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
father" they say "feu votre père". Does the equivalent of feu/late in
other languages behave like that? Spanish "tu difunto padre" follows
the English style.

To go to your actual question, I think the usual expression in English
would be "the soon-to-be ex-president" rather than "the soon
ex-president". Naked "soon" sounds odd to me.

--
Athel cb

Fri, 12 Jan 2024 14:56:58 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
scribeva:
>Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
>"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
>father" they say "feu votre père". Does the equivalent of feu/late in
>other languages behave like that? Spanish "tu difunto padre" follows
>the English style.

Wijlen je vader. Dutch.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wijlen
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whilom#English

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Op 12/01/2024 om 15:52 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Fri, 12 Jan 2024 14:56:58 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
> scribeva:
>> Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
>> "feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
>> father" they say "feu votre père". Does the equivalent of feu/late in
>> other languages behave like that? Spanish "tu difunto padre" follows
>> the English style.
>
> Wijlen je vader. Dutch.
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wijlen

I'd thought that it was a verbal form, which would explain the 'inverse'
word order. A pp of "wijlen" or so, meaning
"having been/existed/dwelled" person X.
But here they suggest rather a nominal adverb, sth like
"from the [former] while/period" person X.

Same with French "feu" Mr/Mme X.
I thought it was a verbal form from the past of L. esse: fuit=>
"Was/Having existed" M/M X.
But it is instead a kind of verbalised adjective from L. fatum, fate:
fatutus=>
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/feu#Etymology_2_2
"Having acomplished their fate" M/M X.

--
guido wugi

Op 12/01/2024 om 23:34 schreef wugi:

> Same with French "feu" Mr/Mme X.

Er, rather
feu(e) Mr (Mme) X.
feu/e Mr/Mme X.
or alike (:/

--
guido wugi

On 2024-01-10, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

> German adjectivises here(!):
> Der hiesigen Minister
> and then, soon, ...(?)

Yes, but while "bald" (adv) > "baldig" (adj) is perfectly fine,
something doesn't feel right to me about "der baldige Ex-Minister".
Google suggests that both variants occur, but "der bald Ex-Minister"
is more common.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-01-10, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

>> German adjectivises here(!):
>
> Just seen:
> Der gestrigen Unfall.
> Others? Ah, from my pocket dico:
> baldig
> Der morgige Tag...
> Couldn't find dannig (der dannige Minister) though...

"der damalige Minister" < "damals"

I think "dann" is strictly for sequencing events.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-01-09, Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

I have been pondering this.

*the soon minister / the soon ex-minister
*der bald Minister / der bald Ex-Minister

My unease about an adjectivized "der baldige Ex-Minister" points
in the same direction.

French allows "le désormais ministre", though.

Of course my hypothesis that this can be analyzed the same way
across those languages may be wrong. ;-)

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 2024-01-12, Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
> "feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
> father" they say "feu votre père".

That is indeed very odd.
(I wasn't even aware of this until now.)

The English use of "late" in this context is highly idiomatic, too.

> Does the equivalent of feu/late in other languages behave like that?

Not in German, where we use unremarkable past participles as
adjectives for this purpose:

Ihr verstorbener Vater
also: verblichener, verschiedener, von uns gegangener

> To go to your actual question, I think the usual expression in English
> would be "the soon-to-be ex-president" rather than "the soon
> ex-president". Naked "soon" sounds odd to me.

It's possible that naked "soon", to the degree that it is acceptable
for some speakers, is a clipping of "soon-to-be".

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Op 14/01/2024 om 21:48 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
> On 2024-01-10, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> German adjectivises here(!):
>>
>> Just seen:
>> Der gestrigen Unfall.
>> Others? Ah, from my pocket dico:
>> baldig
>> Der morgige Tag...
>> Couldn't find dannig (der dannige Minister) though...
>
> "der damalige Minister" < "damals"

Ah yes, like NL. toenmaals, toenmalig ~ *dannmals, *dannmalig, but
indeed calques from G.

> I think "dann" is strictly for sequencing events.

Unlike damals, you mean?
Toen was geluk heel gewoon.
*Dann / Damals war das Glück ganz normal.

--
guido wugi

Op 14/01/2024 om 23:16 schreef wugi:
> Op 14/01/2024 om 21:48 schreef Christian Weisgerber:

>> I think "dann" is strictly for sequencing events.

Like NL "dan" and E. "then", then.

But also starting a new line of thought:

Dan ken je me nog niet!
Dann kennst du mich nicht!

Nee, dan verkies ik de andere.
Nein, dann ziehe ich das andere vor.

But that's sequencing as well, I suppose.

--
guido wugi

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

> Of course my hypothesis that this can be analyzed the same way
> across those languages may be wrong. ;-)

I’ve been thinking that portuguese is somewhat flexible in that regard.

- o ainda ministro ‘the still minister’
- o então ministro ‘ the then minister’
- o não tarda nada ex-ministro ‘the won’t take long ex-minister’

(tardar = to take longer than expected,
não tarda nada = will happen very soon,
não tarda muito = will happen soon)

(I don’t know the applicability of any of this outside post-1950 Portugal)

English whilom seems to be specifically meant for the ‘damalig’ usage,
where other languages reuse more flexible words.

Op 12/01/2024 om 23:38 schreef wugi:
> Op 12/01/2024 om 23:34 schreef wugi:
>
>> Same with French "feu" Mr/Mme X.
>
> Er, rather
> feu(e) Mr (Mme) X.
> feu/e Mr/Mme X.
> or alike (:/

Wrong again, wugi:
https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9F0589

So,
Feu Mme X.
or,
La feue Mme X.

The latter is a "regular" adjective!
The former seems a verbal form use.

--
guido wugi

Mon, 15 Jan 2024 15:39:14 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

>Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>> Of course my hypothesis that this can be analyzed the same way
>> across those languages may be wrong. ;-)
>
>I’ve been thinking that portuguese is somewhat flexible in that regard.
>
>- o ainda ministro ‘the still minister’
>- o então ministro ‘ the then minister’
>- o não tarda nada ex-ministro ‘the won’t take long ex-minister’
>
>(tardar = to take longer than expected,
>não tarda nada = will happen very soon,
>não tarda muito = will happen soon)

Muito interesante, obrigado! Maybe I can use this in the online
Portuguese lessons I am taking again.

This of course has to do with the double negation which sometimes
occurs in Portuguese:
não ... nada = nothing, não ... muito = not much.
That explains the apparent illogicality for non-Portuguese speakers.

>(I don’t know the applicability of any of this outside post-1950 Portugal)
>
>English whilom seems to be specifically meant for the ‘damalig’ usage,
>where other languages reuse more flexible words.

Don't know about whilom, but the Dutch cognate 'wijlen' is strictly
only used in a fixed expression. No, not there is also "hij is wijlen"
= he is dead (or: it is dead, jocularly said about a device).

And is "kassiewijlen" connected to it?
https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle
That's what I hate about this kind of etymologies, saying it is
Yiddish-Hebrew, but NOT saying what the form in those languages is.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle also has no etymology.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:44:08 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>Don't know about whilom, but the Dutch cognate 'wijlen' is strictly
>only used in a fixed expression. No, not there is also "hij is wijlen"
>= he is dead (or: it is dead, jocularly said about a device).
>
>And is "kassiewijlen" connected to it?
>https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle
>That's what I hate about this kind of etymologies, saying it is
>Yiddish-Hebrew, but NOT saying what the form in those languages is.
>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle also has no etymology.

https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_tij003201001_01/_tij003201001_01_0026.php
==
In dit geval kunnen Beem (1975) en kn ons niet helpen, maar uit v&p en
Weinberg (1973) valt op te maken dat chasmeine / chosmeine een
populaire uitdrukking was uit het slotgebed van Jom Kippoer. Deze
uitdrukking betekent naar het Hebreeuws ‘verzegel ons [in het boek]’,
wat in het Jiddisch een vrouwelijk naamwoord geworden is met als
betekenis ‘Abschluß, Besiegelung, Schlag, Schaden’ volgens Weinberg,
en ‘kaakslag’ volgens v&p.

Deze lezingen voldoen niet, maar chasm-eine / chosm-eine ‘verzegel
ons’ zou ten grondslag kunnen liggen aan ons tussenwerpsel. Alleen de
‘uitgang’ -ie in gossie- geeft nog problemen. Maar hier zou ‘rijm’ met
dat andere liturgische citaat hasjiw-eine ‘voer ons terug’, waaruit
asjewijne / kassiewijne / kassiewijle ‘weg, dood’ voortgekomen is, een
rol kunnen spelen.
==

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com