Oh Lord, not ANOTHER "International Day"!!

Crystal goes on at length about the value of saying "thank you", and
different ways to express it.

I have expressed the opinion here (or on a.u.e.) that the concept of
gratitude was distinctively European.
As children, we are extensively schooled in saying "thank you" on
exactly the right occasions.
Christianity teaches us that we should thank God for all kinds of
different things on all kinds of occasions.
This is why 19th century missionaries, writing about Pacific islanders,
exclaimed at the utter moral depravity of these people, evinced by the
fact that their language had no word to express gratitude!
Of course, once in contact with European language and culture, these
languages were able to improvise a word to use in the appropriate
circumstances -- just the word for "good" in some cases.
But -- not a universal lexical meaning, or perhaps even concept.

Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Eanair, scríobh Ross Clark:

> Oh Lord, not ANOTHER "International Day"!!
>
> Crystal goes on at length about the value of saying "thank you", and
> different ways to express it.
>
> I have expressed the opinion here (or on a.u.e.) that the concept of
> gratitude was distinctively European. As children, we are extensively
> schooled in saying "thank you" on exactly the right occasions. Christianity
> teaches us that we should thank God for all kinds of different things on all
> kinds of occasions. This is why 19th century missionaries, writing about
> Pacific islanders, exclaimed at the utter moral depravity of these people,
> evinced by the fact that their language had no word to express gratitude! Of
> course, once in contact with European language and culture, these languages
> were able to improvise a word to use in the appropriate circumstances --
> just the word for "good" in some cases. But -- not a universal lexical
> meaning, or perhaps even concept.

I wonder how correlated it is with the spread of agriculture and the associated
increased population densities, need for easing interaction in dealing with
people you don’t know well. Iran, which has been farming as long as humans have
been, is ridiculous on this front, with تاعروف /tæːˈrof/taking a lot of mental
energy from almost everyone.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Oh Lord, not ANOTHER "International Day"!!
>
> Crystal goes on at length about the value of saying "thank you", and
> different ways to express it.
>
> I have expressed the opinion here (or on a.u.e.) that the concept of
> gratitude was distinctively European.
> As children, we are extensively schooled in saying "thank you" on
> exactly the right occasions.
> Christianity teaches us that we should thank God for all kinds of
> different things on all kinds of occasions.
> This is why 19th century missionaries, writing about Pacific islanders,
> exclaimed at the utter moral depravity of these people, evinced by the
> fact that their language had no word to express gratitude!
> Of course, once in contact with European language and culture, these
> languages were able to improvise a word to use in the appropriate
> circumstances -- just the word for "good" in some cases.
> But -- not a universal lexical meaning, or perhaps even concept.
>

Is there a please day? The gaelics don’t have a please, which confuses
english-speaking learners no end.

Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Eanair, scríobh Antonio Marques:

> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > Oh Lord, not ANOTHER "International Day"!!
> >
> > Crystal goes on at length about the value of saying "thank you", and
> > different ways to express it.
> >
> > I have expressed the opinion here (or on a.u.e.) that the concept of
> > gratitude was distinctively European.
> > As children, we are extensively schooled in saying "thank you" on
> > exactly the right occasions.
> > Christianity teaches us that we should thank God for all kinds of
> > different things on all kinds of occasions.
> > This is why 19th century missionaries, writing about Pacific islanders,
> > exclaimed at the utter moral depravity of these people, evinced by the
> > fact that their language had no word to express gratitude!
> > Of course, once in contact with European language and culture, these
> > languages were able to improvise a word to use in the appropriate
> > circumstances -- just the word for "good" in some cases.
> > But -- not a universal lexical meaning, or perhaps even concept.
> >
>
> Is there a please day? The gaelics don’t have a please, which confuses
> english-speaking learners no end.

The usual phrasing is ‘le do thoil’ or ‘má is é do thoil é’ when calquing (in
Irish, I don’t know Scots Gaelic). ‘With your will’, ‘if it be your will’.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
>
> Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Eanair, scríobh Antonio Marques:
>
> > Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > Oh Lord, not ANOTHER "International Day"!!
> > >
> > > Crystal goes on at length about the value of saying "thank you", and
> > > different ways to express it.
> > >
> > > I have expressed the opinion here (or on a.u.e.) that the concept of
> > > gratitude was distinctively European.
> > > As children, we are extensively schooled in saying "thank you" on
> > > exactly the right occasions.
> > > Christianity teaches us that we should thank God for all kinds of
> > > different things on all kinds of occasions.
> > > This is why 19th century missionaries, writing about Pacific islanders,
> > > exclaimed at the utter moral depravity of these people, evinced by the
> > > fact that their language had no word to express gratitude!
> > > Of course, once in contact with European language and culture, these
> > > languages were able to improvise a word to use in the appropriate
> > > circumstances -- just the word for "good" in some cases.
> > > But -- not a universal lexical meaning, or perhaps even concept.
> > >
> >
> > Is there a please day? The gaelics don’t have a please, which confuses
> > english-speaking learners no end.
>
> The usual phrasing is ‘le do thoil’ or ‘má is é do thoil é’ when calquing (in
> Irish, I don’t know Scots Gaelic). ‘With your will’, ‘if it be your will’.
>

It’s the exact same in SG, spelling aside (and the plural has ur toil
rather than bhur dtoil”), but the whole concept of tacking something onto a
sentence to make it polite (rather than using marked grammar) feels english
in origin.

Tue, 16 Jan 2024 02:35:00 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

>Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
>>
>> Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Eanair, scríobh Antonio Marques:
>> > Is there a please day? The gaelics don’t have a please, which confuses
>> > english-speaking learners no end.
>>
>> The usual phrasing is ‘le do thoil’ or ‘má is é do thoil é’ when calquing (in
>> Irish, I don’t know Scots Gaelic). ‘With your will’, ‘if it be your will’.
>>
>
>It’s the exact same in SG, spelling aside (and the plural has ur toil
>rather than bhur dtoil”), but the whole concept of tacking something onto a
>sentence to make it polite (rather than using marked grammar) feels english
>in origin.

We have expressions for that in Dutch (alstublieft, alsjeblieft (litt.
if it pleases you), abbreviated a.u.b. or also with the French
s.v.p.), but we don't use them as often as in English.

I remember translating heavily non-ideomatic English about all sorts
of electronic devices, probably written by Koreans, Japanese,
Taiwanese or Chinese (sometimes so unideomatic that it was
near-incomprehensible), which heavily overused "please" even to
English taste (to my non-native judgement), so I ignored most of
those, and wrote what we would say or write in the given situation in
Dutch. Translate ideas, not words, has always been my philosophy. But
every meaning element has to be identifiable in the translation in
some way. So if a blunt or rude sounding way to say it is perceived as
polite enough in Dutch culture, the correct translation of "please"
can be just nothing.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com