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tech / sci.engr.joining.welding / Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

SubjectAuthor
* non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesRichard Smith
`* Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesJim Wilkins
 `* Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesDavid Billington
  `* Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesJim Wilkins
   `* Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesRichard Smith
    `* Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesJim Wilkins
     `* Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesJim Wilkins
      `* Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesRichard Smith
       `- Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam enginesJim Wilkins

1
non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

<lyv8z7hjys.fsf@richards-air-2.lan>

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From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:51:55 +0000
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 by: Richard Smith - Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:51 UTC

Hi

I've posted a question about Cornish beam engines on
rec.crafts.metalworking

Should that be of interest to anyone...

Rich Smith

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

<sr9med$c1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 10:31:55 -0500
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:31 UTC

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyv8z7hjys.fsf@richards-air-2.lan...

Hi

I've posted a question about Cornish beam engines on
rec.crafts.metalworking

Should that be of interest to anyone...

Rich Smith

----------------------

It is. I've bought and read quite a lot about the Industrial Revolution in
Britain and America, such as "English and American Tool Builders" and the
Holtzapffel series. Before it began we were about at the level of the
Romans, or in some fields like public water and sewer behind them.
https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20200226-ancient-roman-valves/

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

<sr9ncm$5ve$1@dont-email.me>

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From: djb...@invalid.com (David Billington)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:48:38 +0000
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 by: David Billington - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 15:48 UTC

On 07/01/2022 15:31, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message
> news:lyv8z7hjys.fsf@richards-air-2.lan...
>
> Hi
>
> I've posted a question about Cornish beam engines on
> rec.crafts.metalworking
>
> Should that be of interest to anyone...
>
> Rich Smith
>
> ----------------------
>
> It is. I've bought and read quite a lot about the Industrial
> Revolution in Britain and America, such as "English and American Tool
> Builders" and the Holtzapffel series. Before it began we were about at
> the level of the Romans, or in some fields like public water and sewer
> behind them.
> https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20200226-ancient-roman-valves/
>
>
Monty Python what have the Romans ever done for us?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

<sr9pv4$rdt$1@dont-email.me>

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:31:59 -0500
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:31 UTC

"David Billington" wrote in message news:sr9ncm$5ve$1@dont-email.me...

On 07/01/2022 15:31, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith" wrote in message
> news:lyv8z7hjys.fsf@richards-air-2.lan...
>
> Hi
>
> I've posted a question about Cornish beam engines on
> rec.crafts.metalworking
>
> Should that be of interest to anyone...
>
> Rich Smith
>
> ----------------------
>
> It is. I've bought and read quite a lot about the Industrial Revolution in
> Britain and America, such as "English and American Tool Builders" and the
> Holtzapffel series. Before it began we were about at the level of the
> Romans, or in some fields like public water and sewer behind them.
> https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20200226-ancient-roman-valves/
>
>
Monty Python what have the Romans ever done for us?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

-------------------

My cellular Internet service has improved somewhat with a plan and phone
(hotspot) change but I still don't have enough monthly data for videos, and
got a ways behind while setting up and testing. They promise 10GB starting
next month. The change to 5G is disrupting legacy services like mine.

At least I'm not paying $200 a month for cable TV.

Romani eunt domus!
My first-year Latin teacher was a female version of that Centurion.

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

<lytueemwj0.fsf@richards-air-2.home>

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From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 09:01:07 +0000
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 by: Richard Smith - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:01 UTC

Rifled Muzzle Loader - RML64lb 64cwt
Did someone on the thread about Cornish beam engines (cornish-cycle
beam engines) reference in construction techniques about the
1860's-ish rifled muzzle loader artillery / guns of the time?
There's loads of them lying around where I am working.
There's (at least) one outside the base which I could photograph -
but we are living in "the land of perpetual darkness" right now near
the winter solstice, from going to work and coming back from work.
However, wikipedia page shows exactly the same

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RML_64-pounder_64_cwt_gun

Made of concentric cylinders of wrought iron.
Heat-shrunk on concentrically?
Apparently the then propellant was faster-burning than you'd like for
a propellant, leading to a short fat "bottle-shaped" gun and robbing
advantage from a breech-loader. Where whatever mechanism could
withstand that pressure / force was so clumsy and slow to operate that
firing rate was no greater anyway. And your barrel was short for
ramming a shell down it from the muzzle.
Etc.

As far as I've read, one of the limits capping-off the evolution of
the Cornish beam engine by 1850-ish with about 50psi (3bars) operating
pressure is that is you have a higher operating pressure and a shorter
steam cut-off early in the stroke for maximum expansion, the initial
"jolt" force on the beam was too great, and they had to "ease off"
from "duty" of over 100million (foot-pounds of water to a bushel of
coal). Reliability - cracking the (cast-iron) beam and the mine
flooding as you had to replace it - seems dropped back to "duty" of
about 80million and accepted bit higher coal consumption in return for
the decades-long reliability.

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

<src5tc$2r5$1@dont-email.me>

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:08:09 -0500
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 14:08 UTC

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lytueemwj0.fsf@richards-air-2.home...

Rifled Muzzle Loader - RML64lb 64cwt
Did someone on the thread about Cornish beam engines (cornish-cycle
beam engines) reference in construction techniques about the
1860's-ish rifled muzzle loader artillery / guns of the time?
There's loads of them lying around where I am working.
There's (at least) one outside the base which I could photograph -
but we are living in "the land of perpetual darkness" right now near
the winter solstice, from going to work and coming back from work.
However, wikipedia page shows exactly the same

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RML_64-pounder_64_cwt_gun

Made of concentric cylinders of wrought iron.
Heat-shrunk on concentrically?
Apparently the then propellant was faster-burning than you'd like for
a propellant, leading to a short fat "bottle-shaped" gun and robbing
advantage from a breech-loader. Where whatever mechanism could
withstand that pressure / force was so clumsy and slow to operate that
firing rate was no greater anyway. And your barrel was short for
ramming a shell down it from the muzzle.
Etc.

As far as I've read, one of the limits capping-off the evolution of
the Cornish beam engine by 1850-ish with about 50psi (3bars) operating
pressure is that is you have a higher operating pressure and a shorter
steam cut-off early in the stroke for maximum expansion, the initial
"jolt" force on the beam was too great, and they had to "ease off"
from "duty" of over 100million (foot-pounds of water to a bushel of
coal). Reliability - cracking the (cast-iron) beam and the mine
flooding as you had to replace it - seems dropped back to "duty" of
about 80million and accepted bit higher coal consumption in return for
the decades-long reliability.

----------------------

I referred to Armstrong's preceding RBL, Rifled Breech Loader, which he
didn't consider safe for sizes over 12 pounder, apparently due to its
longitudinally forge welded wrought iron barrel. The surrounding rings were
only a partial solution. The 110 pounder version on HMS Warrior was fired
with reduced charges that greatly reduced the shell's range and
effectiveness. Although this claims the reduction was due to poor obturation
I think I've seen evidence that it was also to avoid barrel explosions. The
RML replaced the RBL after it didn't live up to its promises.
http://www.hmswarrior.org/history/armament

That was another example of the limitations of forge-welded wrought iron
under high stress. They couldn't know how much slag and flux had been
trapped in the weld until it broke, and apparently larger welds were worse.

In common with other contemporary designs the breech had problems that could
have been solved with a brass case for the charge. Military authorities
required decades of failed experimenting to convince them to waste that much
brass per shot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Snider
Initially the base was iron, before they accepted that the entire case
needed to be one piece of brass. 0.577" is 24 gauge.

It was known at the time though not fully accepted that the burning rate
could be controlled by pressing the powder into cylinders with one or more
longitudinal holes. The powder burns on the surface and the outside area
decreases as the cylinder burns, while the holes become larger to
compensate. The bottle shape came from crude early measurements of peak
pressure along the bore. Prior to electronic strain gauges the only way to
determine it was to have the pressure deform little copper or lead slugs in
holes leading into the bore.

The inconsistency and relative weakness of wrought iron has been implicated
in the Titanic disaster. Central portions of the hull were joined with
hydraulically-driven steel rivets but at the ends where the huge riveter
wouldn't fit they were softer hand-driven wrought iron.
https://www.nist.gov/nist-time-capsule/nist-beneath-waves/nist-reveals-how-tiny-rivets-doomed-titanic-vessel

However the fatal leakage was into the #5 and #6 boiler rooms in the wide
part of the hull, below the first funnel. The whole front third of the hull
flooded. That part is now inaccessible, buried in mud. This survivor was
standing right beside the rupture in #6 and also observed and reported the
lesser damage in #5. He was ordered topside to help with the lifeboats after
his duty station flooded, as Titanic had far too few deckhands to both lower
and crew all of them. The ship's officers themselves were manhandling the
last spare lifeboat toward the davits when the top deck submerged under
them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Barrett

The article I referenced mentioned that Cornish mining declined after 1850,
so perhaps less available capital prevented updating the engines with
stronger frames and beams. Cheap steel was still a few decades away.
Industry, locomotives and propeller-driven ships needed smaller, faster
rotating engines that could be better balanced and delivered a more constant
flow of power to a shaft. The compound engine had the potential to make
better use of high pressure steam than the Cornish beam engine, so although
it was a good design to operate a reciprocating pump rod it was a dead end
for other applications. US oil well pumps are still beam engines.
https://empoweringpumps.com/altra-industrial-motion-oil-well-pump-jacks/

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
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Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:58 UTC

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:src5tc$2r5$1@dont-email.me...
....
That was another example of the limitations of forge-welded wrought iron
under high stress. They couldn't know how much slag and flux had been
trapped in the weld until it broke, and apparently larger welds were worse.
....
-----------------------

Expert opinion:
https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/faq-can-wrought-iron-be-repaired-by-welding
"Tests carried out by TWI have shown that when subject to shear or bending
loads welded wrought iron can fail at unexpectedly low loadings ..."

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

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From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
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 by: Richard Smith - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:13 UTC

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:src5tc$2r5$1@dont-email.me...
> ...
> That was another example of the limitations of forge-welded wrought iron
> under high stress. They couldn't know how much slag and flux had been
> trapped in the weld until it broke, and apparently larger welds were worse.
> ...
> -----------------------
>
> Expert opinion:
> https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/faq-can-wrought-iron-be-repaired-by-welding
> "Tests carried out by TWI have shown that when subject to shear or
> bending loads welded wrought iron can fail at unexpectedly low
> loadings ..."

The TWI advice isn't exactly in line with what a friend of mine - a
direct-talking West Country boilermaker - says.
Basically...
You may be able to do full penetration (double-)V butt electric-arc
fusion welds with the joint transverse to the grain, so the grain
passes into the weld metal and resumes on the same axis and
orientation on the other side of the weld.
You do not do a fillet weld on / with wrought iron.

Hope have got this right.

The "welding" mentioned here is electric arc welding.

There will be a lot of welding with wrought iron and that will be
forge welding. I cannot speak from experience though. Been shown
where forge welds are an integral part of wrought iron bridge
structure.

A common problem we have here in the UK is that some Agency raises the
query whether a riveted bridge is wrought iron or steel, resulting in
a couple of lads in a Ford Transit van have a stop at that bridge
added to their day's driving around, where they get out a 9-inch
angle-grinder with a slitting disk and cut a square of metal out of
the *tension* flange.
(it will be the lower / underside of the bridge and the first and most
convenient thing such party will encounter - hence inevitable outcome)
That then leaves a difficult and expensive rectification job to keep
the bridge in service, whether it was fine before or not.

Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines

<srkfjm$4nh$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=183&group=sci.engr.joining.welding#183

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: non-welding question - Cornish beam engines
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 12:42:44 -0500
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Tue, 11 Jan 2022 17:42 UTC

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyczkzh0a6.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:src5tc$2r5$1@dont-email.me...
> ...
> That was another example of the limitations of forge-welded wrought iron
> under high stress. They couldn't know how much slag and flux had been
> trapped in the weld until it broke, and apparently larger welds were
> worse.
> ...
> -----------------------
>
> Expert opinion:
> https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/faq-can-wrought-iron-be-repaired-by-welding
> "Tests carried out by TWI have shown that when subject to shear or
> bending loads welded wrought iron can fail at unexpectedly low
> loadings ..."

The TWI advice isn't exactly in line with what a friend of mine - a
direct-talking West Country boilermaker - says.

-------------

I took that to mean the original forge welds, not modern repairs that fully
melt the iron and allow the included slag to float out. Before the Bessemer
and open hearth processes, nearly pure wrought iron couldn't be melted in
any appreciable quantity, because the nitrogen in air cooled a flame well
below iron's 2800F / 1538C melting point.

Wrought iron could be welded with pressure because it becomes soft and
sticky at yellow/white heat, but the welds may contain unknown amounts of
slag and flux that weaken them. Ideally the weld progressed along a line and
squeezed out the flux, but that became less certain as the size increased.

The open hearth process added heat exchangers that preheat the incoming air
enough to reach melting temperature. The chemist had to work fast to sample
the melt and analyze and correct its composition. That might have been my
job if the Army hadn't redirected me into electronics.

Dissolved carbon reduced the melting temperature enough to produce small
amounts of high carbon tool steel (wootz, crucible) or larger amounts of
higher carbon cast iron, which melts at much lower temperatures a fire in
unheated air could reach.
https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/melting-points
I've seen slightly different values for some of those. It varies with
purity.

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