At first I didn't believe the salesperson when he explained that the
Hyundai Smart Key is Android-only.

"Here are the things you need to have in order to set up Hyundai Digital
Key:
• A compatible Android smartphone. Currently, only Android phones are
compatible with the Digital Key system. The phone must meet the
following requirements:
• Android operating system version 7.0 or later
• Bluetooth 4.0 or later
• Near Field Communication (NFC)"

https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/resources/technology-and-navigation/getting-started-with-hyundai-digital-key.html

I saw an article that says it is coming to iPhone in 2021, but we're at
the end of August and it's still not here
<https://www.imore.com/hyundai-bringing-digital-key-iphone-year>.

The other cool feature is the built-in Qi wireless charger, especially
nice since my son's iPhone X has a flaky Lightning port.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> At first I didn't believe the salesperson when he explained that the
> Hyundai Smart Key is Android-only.
>
> "Here are the things you need to have in order to set up Hyundai Digital
> Key:
> • A compatible Android smartphone. Currently, only Android phones are
> compatible with the Digital Key system. The phone must meet the
> following requirements:
> • Android operating system version 7.0 or later
> • Bluetooth 4.0 or later
> • Near Field Communication (NFC)"
>
> https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/resources/technology-and-navigation/getting-started-with-hyundai-digital-key.html
>
> I saw an article that says it is coming to iPhone in 2021, but we're at
> the end of August and it's still not here
> <https://www.imore.com/hyundai-bringing-digital-key-iphone-year>.
>
> The other cool feature is the built-in Qi wireless charger, especially
> nice since my son's iPhone X has a flaky Lightning port.

I have to wonder about the duplicity in connection methods. If you have
Bluetooth, why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to
the car's BT transceiver? Could it be that cars with BT don't have it
on when the car is turned off (i.e., the BT transceiver in the car
matches the state of the cigarette lighter aka power port)?

Doesn't use of NFC require the car's NFC transceiver also be always
powered on? NFC is very short range. That would be okay when the phone
is near the door, like resting against the fingerlock panel.

Neither would have any value for starting your car during the winter, so
it was warm inside before you enter. Your car outside would be too far
away for BT to work from your phone inside your home, unless you just
managed to within range by standing at a window outside of which is the
car. Well, there aren't that many radios inside your phone. BT and NFC
are about it since unlikely they would build a wifi router inside the
car. Wifi is limited, too, but 100ft for 5GHz and 300ft for 2.4GHz sure
beats the range of NFC and Bluetooth. Seems this digital key feature is
for when you are walking up to your car. Just how warm is your car
going to be when you walk 10 feet to it? When you're that close, it
takes less time to extract your phone from your pocket, purse, or belt
holster to unlock the screen to unlock the door versus the walk of 10
feet to use a key or digital pad on the door?

You need a Hyundai account wherein is record your VIN, and the car must
have the digital key feature (is that included in the base price, or
some high-priced feature that also bundles in other features you may not
want?).

Just 4 digits for the key? That's ridiculous. With all this pairing
requiring the car's BT and NFC transceivers always getting power, no
wonder newer cars have fewer days between use to ensure you can actually
have enough juice in the battery to start the car.

This seems a solution searching for a problem.

In article <9igs28447365.dlg@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>
wrote:

>
> I have to wonder about the duplicity in connection methods. If you have
> Bluetooth, why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to
> the car's BT transceiver?

bluetooth is not suited for unlocking a vehicle for all sorts of
reasons.

> Could it be that cars with BT don't have it
> on when the car is turned off

that's one reason.

> (i.e., the BT transceiver in the car
> matches the state of the cigarette lighter aka power port)?

that depends on the vehicle and which accessory outlet. there is no set
rule.

some vehicles have always on outlets while other vehicles are switched.
there are also vehicles with more than one accessory outlet and it can
vary within the same vehicle.

> Doesn't use of NFC require the car's NFC transceiver also be always
> powered on? NFC is very short range. That would be okay when the phone
> is near the door, like resting against the fingerlock panel.

yes, and a non-issue.

there is also uwb, which is ideal for unlocking due to its precise
locating ability and a key reason for hyundai's delay for ios.

> Neither would have any value for starting your car during the winter, so
> it was warm inside before you enter.

remote starting is a separate feature, not what this is about.

On 8/29/2021 8:40 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

> why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to the car's
> BT transceiver? Could it be that cars with BT don't have it on when
> the car is turned off (i.e., the BT transceiver in the car matches
> the state of the cigarette lighter aka power port)?
>
> Doesn't use of NFC require the car's NFC transceiver also be always
> powered on? NFC is very short range. That would be okay when the
> phone is near the door, like resting against the fingerlock panel.
>
> Neither would have any value for starting your car during the winter,
> so it was warm inside before you enter. Your car outside would be
> too far away for BT to work from your phone inside your home, unless
> you just managed to within range by standing at a window outside of
> which is the car.

My Buick app can use the cellular network (through OnStar) to connect
with and start the car so my phone's distance from the car is not a problem.

Am 30.08.21 um 06:43 schrieb nospam:
> In article <9igs28447365.dlg@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have to wonder about the duplicity in connection methods. If you have
>> Bluetooth, why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to
>> the car's BT transceiver?
>
> bluetooth is not suited for unlocking a vehicle for all sorts of
> reasons.

It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
lose their resale value immediately.

Very typical for the anglo-saxon especially american throw-away mentality.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> On 8/29/2021 8:40 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to the car's
>> BT transceiver? Could it be that cars with BT don't have it on when
>> the car is turned off (i.e., the BT transceiver in the car matches
>> the state of the cigarette lighter aka power port)?
>>
>> Doesn't use of NFC require the car's NFC transceiver also be always
>> powered on? NFC is very short range. That would be okay when the
>> phone is near the door, like resting against the fingerlock panel.
>>
>> Neither would have any value for starting your car during the winter,
>> so it was warm inside before you enter. Your car outside would be
>> too far away for BT to work from your phone inside your home, unless
>> you just managed to within range by standing at a window outside of
>> which is the car.
>
> My Buick app can use the cellular network (through OnStar) to connect
> with and start the car so my phone's distance from the car is not a
> problem.

From what I saw at the Hyundai web page, the phone+app acts as a
replacement for the key fob. No mention of the car having any cellular
subscription service, like OnStar (*).

(*) https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/general-motors-technology/onstar/onstar-plans-pricing/onstar-guidance-plan-info-price/

From Hyundai's description, the entire setup is free: app is free, you
must already have a smartphone, but I don't know from where and price of
the NFC card (a separate item recommended to tote along as a backup in
case your phone goes dead or is off, and apparently if you also don't
have the key fob).

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/29/2021 8:40 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to the car's
>>> BT transceiver? Could it be that cars with BT don't have it on when
>>> the car is turned off (i.e., the BT transceiver in the car matches
>>> the state of the cigarette lighter aka power port)?
>>>
>>> Doesn't use of NFC require the car's NFC transceiver also be always
>>> powered on? NFC is very short range. That would be okay when the
>>> phone is near the door, like resting against the fingerlock panel.
>>>
>>> Neither would have any value for starting your car during the winter,
>>> so it was warm inside before you enter. Your car outside would be
>>> too far away for BT to work from your phone inside your home, unless
>>> you just managed to within range by standing at a window outside of
>>> which is the car.
>>
>> My Buick app can use the cellular network (through OnStar) to connect
>> with and start the car so my phone's distance from the car is not a
>> problem.
>
> From what I saw at the Hyundai web page, the phone+app acts as a
> replacement for the key fob. No mention of the car having any cellular
> subscription service, like OnStar (*).
>
> (*) https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/general-motors-technology/onstar/onstar-plans-pricing/onstar-guidance-plan-info-price/

Does that still exist in the USA? In Europe it has stopped Dec 2020.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 07:41:43 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

>It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
>vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
>of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
>lose their resale value immediately.
>
>Very typical for the anglo-saxon especially american throw-away mentality.

Yes, like the web site I visited, and thought I would like to share
the article I read tere.

In order to use the Twitter link I had to enable Javascript.

The moment I allowed Javascript everything on the site disappeared,
and was replaced by a messages saying

"Your browser is no longer supported".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 8/29/2021 8:40 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> At first I didn't believe the salesperson when he explained that the
>> Hyundai Smart Key is Android-only.
>>
>> "Here are the things you need to have in order to set up Hyundai Digital
>> Key:
>> • A compatible Android smartphone. Currently, only Android phones are
>> compatible with the Digital Key system. The phone must meet the
>> following requirements:
>> • Android operating system version 7.0 or later
>> • Bluetooth 4.0 or later
>> • Near Field Communication (NFC)"
>>
>> https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/resources/technology-and-navigation/getting-started-with-hyundai-digital-key.html
>>
>> I saw an article that says it is coming to iPhone in 2021, but we're at
>> the end of August and it's still not here
>> <https://www.imore.com/hyundai-bringing-digital-key-iphone-year>.
>>
>> The other cool feature is the built-in Qi wireless charger, especially
>> nice since my son's iPhone X has a flaky Lightning port.
>
> I have to wonder about the duplicity in connection methods.

I'm pretty sure that the "Smart Key" card is NFC. The phone reads the
NFC chip and then communicates with the car via Bluetooth. This
capability began on the 2020 models and now they are shipping 2022
models so it's been two years already that this feature has been
available. It seems odd that they have not been able to get an app for
the iPhone done yet.

On 8/29/2021 10:16 PM, AJL wrote:
> On 8/29/2021 8:40 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to the car's
>> BT transceiver?  Could it be that cars with BT don't have it on when
>> the car is turned off (i.e., the BT transceiver in the car matches
>> the state of the cigarette lighter aka power port)?
>>
>> Doesn't use of NFC require the car's NFC transceiver also be always
>> powered on?  NFC is very short range.  That would be okay when the
>> phone is near the door, like resting against the fingerlock panel.
>>
>> Neither would have any value for starting your car during the winter,
>> so it was warm inside before you enter.  Your car outside would be
>> too far away for BT to work from your phone inside your home, unless
>> you just managed to within range by standing at a window outside of
>> which is the car.
>
> My Buick app can use the cellular network (through OnStar) to connect
> with and start the car so my phone's distance from the car is not a
> problem.

This car has that as well, and that works with iPhone and Android, but
it's an extra cost service once the initial free period ends. The "Smart
Key" is not cellular based, it's like d contactless credit card.

On 8/30/2021 12:35 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

<snip>

> From what I saw at the Hyundai web page, the phone+app acts as a
> replacement for the key fob. No mention of the car having any cellular
> subscription service, like OnStar (*).

It does have that as well. But you have to pay $15 per month for that
once the initial included time period is over. As you said, the "Smart
Key" is a replacement for a key fob.

On 8/30/2021 2:28 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 07:41:43 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
>> vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
>> of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
>> lose their resale value immediately.
>>
>> Very typical for the anglo-saxon especially american throw-away mentality.
>
> Yes, like the web site I visited, and thought I would like to share
> the article I read tere.
>
> In order to use the Twitter link I had to enable Javascript.
>
> The moment I allowed Javascript everything on the site disappeared,
> and was replaced by a messages saying
>
> "Your browser is no longer supported".

Jorge is wrong of course™.

First of all, if a phone is replaced after five years, you just use your
new phone. Presumably NFC and Bluetooth are not going away any time soon.

The "Smart Key" is just an additional method to unlock and start the
car, the car still has the traditional key fobs as well. The idea that
if the Smart Key somehow stopped working, for whatever reason, the car
would lose its resale value, is ludicrous.

Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/29/2021 8:40 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> why wouldn't the app use the phone's BT radio to connect to the car's
>>>> BT transceiver? Could it be that cars with BT don't have it on when
>>>> the car is turned off (i.e., the BT transceiver in the car matches
>>>> the state of the cigarette lighter aka power port)?
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't use of NFC require the car's NFC transceiver also be always
>>>> powered on? NFC is very short range. That would be okay when the
>>>> phone is near the door, like resting against the fingerlock panel.
>>>>
>>>> Neither would have any value for starting your car during the winter,
>>>> so it was warm inside before you enter. Your car outside would be
>>>> too far away for BT to work from your phone inside your home, unless
>>>> you just managed to within range by standing at a window outside of
>>>> which is the car.
>>>
>>> My Buick app can use the cellular network (through OnStar) to connect
>>> with and start the car so my phone's distance from the car is not a
>>> problem.
>>
>> From what I saw at the Hyundai web page, the phone+app acts as a
>> replacement for the key fob. No mention of the car having any cellular
>> subscription service, like OnStar (*).
>>
>> (*) https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/general-motors-technology/onstar/onstar-plans-pricing/onstar-guidance-plan-info-price/
>
> Does that still exist in the USA? In Europe it has stopped Dec 2020.

https://www.onstar.com/us/en/support/european-faq/

I haven't heard "Opel" in decades. Probably because I don't keep up
with makes that aren't distributed in the USA. Wasn't too long ago I
saw an Onstar ad on TV.

OnStar Hands-Free Calling Will Be Sunset in 2022
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/06/onstar-hands-free-calling-will-be-sunset-in-2022/

Not yet gone in the USA, but it will be. Smartphones are taking over
its job. Hell, smartphones are replacing head units for navigation,
music, and all that other crippled junk bundled with the car's head/nav
unit. I don't have a head unit in my ancient 2002. It's in my 2017,
but I prefer using my phone. When I get rental cars, the only part of
the head unit I use is its display after linking my phone to it, so it's
a remote display for my phone.

In article <sghr2o$rqo$1@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
> vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
> of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
> lose their resale value immediately.

replace the phone, update the app and link it to the car. no issues
whatsoever.

it's actually easier than if you lose the actual key, which for the new
electronic keys, are *not* cheap to replace and can only be done at the
dealer.

In article <sgi9dj$ci4$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> I'm pretty sure that the "Smart Key" card is NFC. The phone reads the
> NFC chip and then communicates with the car via Bluetooth. This
> capability began on the 2020 models and now they are shipping 2022
> models so it's been two years already that this feature has been
> available. It seems odd that they have not been able to get an app for
> the iPhone done yet.

they're doing more than just nfc for ios, in particular, uwb.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <sghr2o$rqo$1@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>
> > It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
> > vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
> > of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
> > lose their resale value immediately.
>
> replace the phone, update the app and link it to the car. no issues
> whatsoever.
>
If it's *that* easy then surely it's easy for anyone to do, so
stealing your car is easy! There must be some 'secure' key needed in
the "link it to the car" bit surely.

> it's actually easier than if you lose the actual key, which for the new
> electronic keys, are *not* cheap to replace and can only be done at the
> dealer.

--
Chris Green
·

In article <hf7vvh-inh41.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green
<cl@isbd.net> wrote:

> > > It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
> > > vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
> > > of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
> > > lose their resale value immediately.
> >
> > replace the phone, update the app and link it to the car. no issues
> > whatsoever.
> >
> If it's *that* easy then surely it's easy for anyone to do, so
> stealing your car is easy! There must be some 'secure' key needed in
> the "link it to the car" bit surely.

there is.

On 8/30/2021 7:44 AM, Chris Green wrote:

<snip>

> If it's *that* easy then surely it's easy for anyone to do, so
> stealing your car is easy! There must be some 'secure' key needed in
> the "link it to the car" bit surely.

Okay, so I read more about this. You actually have three ways to open
and start the car.

For Android users, you have the digital key on your phone. You can
invite others to load a digital key on their Android phones as well.
This uses NFC to unlock the car and allow it be started.

You have an NFC card key which you can use if you have an iPhone.

You have the normal key fobs.

Have you ever lost a key fob? Fortunately I never have, but I know
people that have. If you go to the dealer for replacement it will be
several hundreds of dollars. Around my area there are a few Ace Hardware
Stores that sell replacement key fobs and have the equipment and
software necessary to program the key fob to the car, but it is still
around one hundred dollars, and they can't do all cars (no Mercedes, no
Tesla, probably others as well):
<https://www.acehardware.com/automotivekeys>.

On 8/30/2021 12:35 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> My Buick app can use the cellular network (through OnStar) to
>> connect with and start the car so my phone's distance from the car
>> is not a problem.

> From what I saw at the Hyundai web page, the phone+app acts as a
> replacement for the key fob. No mention of the car having any
> cellular subscription service, like OnStar (*).

> From Hyundai's description, the entire setup is free: app is free...

Yup. OnStar is a subscription service that came "free" for 3 years with
the Buick's purchase. I didn't resubscribe when it expired.

For one thing I was paranoid about remote starting anyway. I don't
like starting a car I can't see. And the fob remote starts it just fine
when I can see it. My theory was that a perp walking by a running empty
car might break the window thinking he could steal it. He couldn't of
course since the gearshift remains locked until I put the key in (yes
the 2016 Buick still has a key/fob) but I still would have had to fix
the window. Silly you say? Perhaps. But I've seen many similar sillier
costly things happen to others over the years...

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <hf7vvh-inh41.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green
> <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>
> > > > It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
> > > > vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
> > > > of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
> > > > lose their resale value immediately.
> > >
> > > replace the phone, update the app and link it to the car. no issues
> > > whatsoever.
> > >
> > If it's *that* easy then surely it's easy for anyone to do, so
> > stealing your car is easy! There must be some 'secure' key needed in
> > the "link it to the car" bit surely.
>
> there is.

So "no issues" as long as you have the key, whatever it is.

--
Chris Green
·

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
> For one thing I was paranoid about remote starting anyway. I don't
> like starting a car I can't see. And the fob remote starts it just fine
> when I can see it. My theory was that a perp walking by a running empty
> car might break the window thinking he could steal it. He couldn't of
> course since the gearshift remains locked until I put the key in (yes
> the 2016 Buick still has a key/fob) but I still would have had to fix
> the window. Silly you say? Perhaps. But I've seen many similar sillier
> costly things happen to others over the years...
>
That's exactly why we leave our cars unlocked much of the time, you're
much less likely to get a brick through the window to see if there are
any wallets/phones/valuables to steal. The car is immobilised anyway,
the doors being locked adds very little deterrent to the car being
stolen.

--
Chris Green
·

In article <mvbvvh-daq41.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green
<cl@isbd.net> wrote:

> > > > > It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
> > > > > vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
> > > > > of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
> > > > > lose their resale value immediately.
> > > >
> > > > replace the phone, update the app and link it to the car. no issues
> > > > whatsoever.
> > > >
> > > If it's *that* easy then surely it's easy for anyone to do, so
> > > stealing your car is easy! There must be some 'secure' key needed in
> > > the "link it to the car" bit surely.
> >
> > there is.
>
> So "no issues" as long as you have the key, whatever it is.

just like every other device with a key.

if you lose your car keys or house keys, you will have problems.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <mvbvvh-daq41.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green
> <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > It is an extremely bad idea to force owner of a car to manage the
> > > > > > vehicle with a life span of 15 years with a device with an expected life
> > > > > > of under 5 years and an OS-update-cycle of 12 months. Such cars will
> > > > > > lose their resale value immediately.
> > > > >
> > > > > replace the phone, update the app and link it to the car. no issues
> > > > > whatsoever.
> > > > >
> > > > If it's *that* easy then surely it's easy for anyone to do, so
> > > > stealing your car is easy! There must be some 'secure' key needed in
> > > > the "link it to the car" bit surely.
> > >
> > > there is.
> >
> > So "no issues" as long as you have the key, whatever it is.
>
> just like every other device with a key.
>
> if you lose your car keys or house keys, you will have problems.

Er, yes, but that rather goes in a circle. Losing your car key fob is
expensive and this Hyundai app doesn't make any difference to that, I
thought that was one of the advantages offered.

--
Chris Green
·

In article <b1gvvh-7o351.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green
<cl@isbd.net> wrote:

> > > So "no issues" as long as you have the key, whatever it is.
> >
> > just like every other device with a key.
> >
> > if you lose your car keys or house keys, you will have problems.
>
> Er, yes, but that rather goes in a circle. Losing your car key fob is
> expensive and this Hyundai app doesn't make any difference to that, I
> thought that was one of the advantages offered.

the app means you can easily create a new key.

On 8/30/2021 10:10 AM, Chris Green wrote:

<snip>

> Er, yes, but that rather goes in a circle. Losing your car key fob is
> expensive and this Hyundai app doesn't make any difference to that, I
> thought that was one of the advantages offered.

Well you don't need to even carry the key fob. Just lock it in your safe
ore wherever you keep your valuables.