On Saturday, 24 April 2021 at 20:12:48 UTC+1, Tom BravoMike wrote:

> Do you really believe Klaus Ohlmann and Jean-Marie Clément would have set their records in the Andes in a "pure" sailplane? Instead, they flew each a Nimbus 4DM, I believe. "No safety advantage" - really? Will you say it's a special case? Well, it is a sort of competition in setting records.
>

Well I remember reading an article by Klaus Ohlmann after his first distance record in the Andes. That one was in a Stemme, and I remember he said if he had wanted to use the engine he would have had to land first and give it time to warm up, because it was too cold to use after a long time at altitude. So a convenience feature, not a safety feature.

I don't know why he subsequently changed to a Nimbus 4 - did it have anything to do with what generous people were willing to lend him? Even with the Nimbus, the engine might not have started after a few hours at 20,000 feet.

On the subject of warming up time, with my Solo engine I was advised by Shempp-HIrth to take off without waiting for it to get to 40 degrees C (that is what the manual specifies) because a cold engine develops more power. I generally take off as soon as I have completed the ignition etc checks, and if I start over a field I go to climb power very soon. I remember in his guide Eric mentions taking a better look at the field which you didn't have to land in while the engine warms up a bit before increasing power and climbing away.

On 4/27/2021 6:48 PM, waremark wrote:
> Well I remember reading an article by Klaus Ohlmann after his first distance record in the Andes. That one was in a Stemme, and I remember he said if he had wanted to use the engine he would have had to land first and give it time to warm up, because it was too cold to use after a long time at altitude.

Right, the oil solidifies in the cold and it will not start...
Don't know why that particular oil was required, but IIRC it wasn't
possible to change.

> So a convenience feature, not a safety feature.

Yup.

Yep, and wears out quicker.

Dan
5J

On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
> cold engine develops more power.

On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Yep, and wears out quicker.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
>> cold engine develops more power.

The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine. If it only
lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years! The Stemme is
usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good airplane, and 200 hours might
be only two or three years.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

I've owned my Stemme now for 5 years and have logged around 850 hours
(327 flights) on it. I think I've used around 80 engine hours during
that time which is about 15 minutes per flight (start, taxi, takeoff,
and cool down). I tow the glider from my hangar to the apron before
rigging.

And yes, I fly with a different mind set than I did in my LAK-17a: I
must be within range of a runway suitable to make a normal takeoff at
all times.

Dan
5J

On 4/28/21 3:06 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Yep, and wears out quicker.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>>
>> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
>>> cold engine develops more power.
>
> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine. If
> it only lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years!
> The Stemme is usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good
> airplane, and 200 hours might be only two or three years.
>

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 5:06:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Yep, and wears out quicker.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> >
> > On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
> >> cold engine develops more power.
> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine. If it only
> lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years! The Stemme is
> usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good airplane, and 200 hours might
> be only two or three years.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Eric, are you hitting on the bong? You cannot even admit that you must manage your flight differently. This is beginning to become comical.

Doesn't sound like you need to worry about engine life, either, unless your TBO
is Real Soon Now.

On 4/28/2021 2:23 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've owned my Stemme now for 5 years and have logged around 850 hours (327
> flights) on it.  I think I've used around 80 engine hours during that time which
> is about 15 minutes per flight (start, taxi, takeoff, and cool down).  I tow the
> glider from my hangar to the apron before rigging.
>
> And yes, I fly with a different mind set than I did in my LAK-17a:  I must be
> within range of a runway suitable to make a normal takeoff at all times.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 4/28/21 3:06 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Yep, and wears out quicker.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>>
>>> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
>>>> cold engine develops more power.
>>
>> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine. If it
>> only lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years! The Stemme
>> is usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good airplane, and 200 hours
>> might be only two or three years.
>>

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On 4/28/2021 2:39 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 5:06:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Yep, and wears out quicker.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>>
>>> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
>>>> cold engine develops more power.
>> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine. If it only
>> lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years! The Stemme is
>> usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good airplane, and 200 hours might
>> be only two or three years.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> Eric, are you hitting on the bong? You cannot even admit that you must manage your flight differently. This is beginning to become comical.
>
Yes, I do manage the flights differently than when I flew towed gliders - that's
the POINT of owning a motorglider: to do things differently from tow planes and
retrieval crews. We keep telling you this over and over, but you obsess over the
idea we do it for some huge flight performance and safety reason. Again, in
order of importance to me: self-launching means I can fly from my home airport,
or almost any airport around the country, even Canada and Alaska (me and my
glider have made that trip); I can reliably make it home, even if I misjudge the
weather, which I like and delights my wife ("best glider we've ever had", she
says); and I can sometimes push my "lift luck" and risk a field landing if the
engine doesn't start.

You also miss the point that there is a large variation in flight management
between pilots; for example, between Ramy Yanetz and Bob Youngblood, even though
they both fly unpowered gliders. Skills, crew availability, wealth,
work/retirement status, health, personality, motored/towed, and more all affect
how a pilot manages a flight. The motored/towed is just one these many factors
involved.

If you'd fly in some contests, or attempted record flights, or just got out of
Florida and flew out a few other places than your nest in Vero, I think you
might better understand what we are trying to tell you.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 4:28:50 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/28/2021 2:39 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 5:06:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>> Yep, and wears out quicker.
> >>>
> >>> Dan
> >>> 5J
> >>>
> >>> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
> >>>> cold engine develops more power.
> >> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine. If it only
> >> lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years! The Stemme is
> >> usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good airplane, and 200 hours might
> >> be only two or three years.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > Eric, are you hitting on the bong? You cannot even admit that you must manage your flight differently. This is beginning to become comical.
> >
> Yes, I do manage the flights differently than when I flew towed gliders - that's
> the POINT of owning a motorglider: to do things differently from tow planes and
> retrieval crews. We keep telling you this over and over, but you obsess over the
> idea we do it for some huge flight performance and safety reason. Again, in
> order of importance to me: self-launching means I can fly from my home airport,
> or almost any airport around the country, even Canada and Alaska (me and my
> glider have made that trip); I can reliably make it home, even if I misjudge the
> weather, which I like and delights my wife ("best glider we've ever had", she
> says); and I can sometimes push my "lift luck" and risk a field landing if the
> engine doesn't start.
>
> You also miss the point that there is a large variation in flight management
> between pilots; for example, between Ramy Yanetz and Bob Youngblood, even though
> they both fly unpowered gliders. Skills, crew availability, wealth,
> work/retirement status, health, personality, motored/towed, and more all affect
> how a pilot manages a flight. The motored/towed is just one these many factors
> involved.
>
> If you'd fly in some contests, or attempted record flights, or just got out of
> Florida and flew out a few other places than your nest in Vero, I think you
> might better understand what we are trying to tell you.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Bob seems to want a different contest category for motorgliders for some perceived advantage they do or do not have. Well, this is the WRONG forum for addressing said grievance - take it to OLC if you want some special category. I think that Bob already knows what the answer will be and just wants to vent ad nauseum.

Personally, my experience in actual contests is that MGs have a DISADVANTAGE in the form of undumpable ballast - the pure gliders get get back on weak days and us MGs had to land out (literally at that time). I quickly concluded that if I wanted to compete I would have to buy a pure glider. Not being that interested in competitions, I stopped participating in contests. OLC is more like a handicapped golf tournament - a friendly way to compare flights, not a serious contest per se.

Tom

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 7:57:32 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 4:28:50 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 4/28/2021 2:39 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 5:06:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >>> Yep, and wears out quicker.
> > >>>
> > >>> Dan
> > >>> 5J
> > >>>
> > >>> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
> > >>>> cold engine develops more power.
> > >> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine.. If it only
> > >> lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years! The Stemme is
> > >> usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good airplane, and 200 hours might
> > >> be only two or three years.
> > >> --
> > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > > Eric, are you hitting on the bong? You cannot even admit that you must manage your flight differently. This is beginning to become comical.
> > >
> > Yes, I do manage the flights differently than when I flew towed gliders - that's
> > the POINT of owning a motorglider: to do things differently from tow planes and
> > retrieval crews. We keep telling you this over and over, but you obsess over the
> > idea we do it for some huge flight performance and safety reason. Again, in
> > order of importance to me: self-launching means I can fly from my home airport,
> > or almost any airport around the country, even Canada and Alaska (me and my
> > glider have made that trip); I can reliably make it home, even if I misjudge the
> > weather, which I like and delights my wife ("best glider we've ever had", she
> > says); and I can sometimes push my "lift luck" and risk a field landing if the
> > engine doesn't start.
> >
> > You also miss the point that there is a large variation in flight management
> > between pilots; for example, between Ramy Yanetz and Bob Youngblood, even though
> > they both fly unpowered gliders. Skills, crew availability, wealth,
> > work/retirement status, health, personality, motored/towed, and more all affect
> > how a pilot manages a flight. The motored/towed is just one these many factors
> > involved.
> >
> > If you'd fly in some contests, or attempted record flights, or just got out of
> > Florida and flew out a few other places than your nest in Vero, I think you
> > might better understand what we are trying to tell you.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> Bob seems to want a different contest category for motorgliders for some perceived advantage they do or do not have. Well, this is the WRONG forum for addressing said grievance - take it to OLC if you want some special category. I think that Bob already knows what the answer will be and just wants to vent ad nauseum.
>
> Personally, my experience in actual contests is that MGs have a DISADVANTAGE in the form of undumpable ballast - the pure gliders get get back on weak days and us MGs had to land out (literally at that time). I quickly concluded that if I wanted to compete I would have to buy a pure glider. Not being that interested in competitions, I stopped participating in contests. OLC is more like a handicapped golf tournament - a friendly way to compare flights, not a serious contest per se.
>
> Tom
2G, I do not recall saying anything about contest scoring as you have stated, I give you this opportunity to correct me if I have advocated that idea. Possibly you do not read well and draw incorrect conclusions much too often. What I have said from the beginning is that there is a difference in the advantage that a MG has over a pure glider, you seem to think that this is incorrect. You mentioned ballast, I fly often with ballast, I have filled the damn thing up to the rim and added even more weight to the cockpit, do I look at this as a disadvantage, hell no, I know when to dump! For your information I have flown in many different places, none are more challenging than year around flying in Florida. Don't knock Vero, you should be so lucky, I walk out my back door on to my own runway and enjoy life, maybe you don't have that luxury, I wish you better success in the future.
What I have said is that there should be a different class for MG flight as compared to the purist. I do not have that luxury of closing a triangle and starting my engine to get back to where I started from, that certainly is an advantage, say you?
Let me extend the same invitation to you as I extended to Eric, come on down to Florida, you can stay here at the ranch, fly from the backyard and I will join you and others on a great flight throughout the swampy terrain.
I know what your response will be, yes we both flew the same distance , but wouldn't you agree that our flight management is a bit different, wound you not say that the risk assessment is a bit different.
I met a guy named George, back in or around 1980's, I guess he would be in his 90's now, what do you think his take on all this would be? Your friend , Old Bob

On 4/28/2021 7:19 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 7:57:32 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:

> What I have said is that there should be a different class for MG flight as compared to the purist. I do not have that luxury of closing a triangle and starting my engine to get back to where I started from, that certainly is an advantage, say you?
> Let me extend the same invitation to you as I extended to Eric, come on down to Florida, you can stay here at the ranch, fly from the backyard and I will join you and others on a great flight throughout the swampy terrain.
> I know what your response will be, yes we both flew the same distance , but wouldn't you agree that our flight management is a bit different, wound you not say that the risk assessment is a bit different.
> I met a guy named George, back in or around 1980's, I guess he would be in his 90's now, what do you think his take on all this would be? Your friend , Old Bob
>
What would be better if motorless and motored gliders are in separate classes?
Would you fly in contests if that was done? Why do you think it hasn't happened
already?
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 7:19:53 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 7:57:32 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 4:28:50 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On 4/28/2021 2:39 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 5:06:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > >> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > >>> Yep, and wears out quicker.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dan
> > > >>> 5J
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
> > > >>>> cold engine develops more power.
> > > >> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine. If it only
> > > >> lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40 years! The Stemme is
> > > >> usual for a self-launcher because it's also a good airplane, and 200 hours might
> > > >> be only two or three years.
> > > >> --
> > > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > > > Eric, are you hitting on the bong? You cannot even admit that you must manage your flight differently. This is beginning to become comical.
> > > >
> > > Yes, I do manage the flights differently than when I flew towed gliders - that's
> > > the POINT of owning a motorglider: to do things differently from tow planes and
> > > retrieval crews. We keep telling you this over and over, but you obsess over the
> > > idea we do it for some huge flight performance and safety reason. Again, in
> > > order of importance to me: self-launching means I can fly from my home airport,
> > > or almost any airport around the country, even Canada and Alaska (me and my
> > > glider have made that trip); I can reliably make it home, even if I misjudge the
> > > weather, which I like and delights my wife ("best glider we've ever had", she
> > > says); and I can sometimes push my "lift luck" and risk a field landing if the
> > > engine doesn't start.
> > >
> > > You also miss the point that there is a large variation in flight management
> > > between pilots; for example, between Ramy Yanetz and Bob Youngblood, even though
> > > they both fly unpowered gliders. Skills, crew availability, wealth,
> > > work/retirement status, health, personality, motored/towed, and more all affect
> > > how a pilot manages a flight. The motored/towed is just one these many factors
> > > involved.
> > >
> > > If you'd fly in some contests, or attempted record flights, or just got out of
> > > Florida and flew out a few other places than your nest in Vero, I think you
> > > might better understand what we are trying to tell you.
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > Bob seems to want a different contest category for motorgliders for some perceived advantage they do or do not have. Well, this is the WRONG forum for addressing said grievance - take it to OLC if you want some special category. I think that Bob already knows what the answer will be and just wants to vent ad nauseum.
> >
> > Personally, my experience in actual contests is that MGs have a DISADVANTAGE in the form of undumpable ballast - the pure gliders get get back on weak days and us MGs had to land out (literally at that time). I quickly concluded that if I wanted to compete I would have to buy a pure glider. Not being that interested in competitions, I stopped participating in contests. OLC is more like a handicapped golf tournament - a friendly way to compare flights, not a serious contest per se.
> >
> > Tom
> 2G, I do not recall saying anything about contest scoring as you have stated, I give you this opportunity to correct me if I have advocated that idea. Possibly you do not read well and draw incorrect conclusions much too often. What I have said from the beginning is that there is a difference in the advantage that a MG has over a pure glider, you seem to think that this is incorrect. You mentioned ballast, I fly often with ballast, I have filled the damn thing up to the rim and added even more weight to the cockpit, do I look at this as a disadvantage, hell no, I know when to dump! For your information I have flown in many different places, none are more challenging than year around flying in Florida. Don't knock Vero, you should be so lucky, I walk out my back door on to my own runway and enjoy life, maybe you don't have that luxury, I wish you better success in the future.
> What I have said is that there should be a different class for MG flight as compared to the purist. I do not have that luxury of closing a triangle and starting my engine to get back to where I started from, that certainly is an advantage, say you?
> Let me extend the same invitation to you as I extended to Eric, come on down to Florida, you can stay here at the ranch, fly from the backyard and I will join you and others on a great flight throughout the swampy terrain.
> I know what your response will be, yes we both flew the same distance , but wouldn't you agree that our flight management is a bit different, wound you not say that the risk assessment is a bit different.
> I met a guy named George, back in or around 1980's, I guess he would be in his 90's now, what do you think his take on all this would be? Your friend , Old Bob

Okay Bob, here are your own words:
"Do I think that having an engine provides a significant advantage in scoring OLC points? Absolutely, Yes."
and
"Bottom line, motor gliders should compete against motor gliders on OLC."
This is exactly what I said: you want a different categories for pure and motorgliders. You now seem to be denying that you said that. This is like trying to converse with Jello.
While it is great you can walk out your back door to your runway, I don't see how that is relevant to the issue you posed. Flying in Florida sounds intriguing, but is pretty impractical as I am about as far away from Florida as you can get in the lower 48.

Tom

Engine's got less than 200 hours on it.

Dan
5J

On 4/28/21 5:05 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Doesn't sound like you need to worry about engine life, either, unless
> your TBO is Real Soon Now.
>
> On 4/28/2021 2:23 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I've owned my Stemme now for 5 years and have logged around 850 hours
>> (327 flights) on it.  I think I've used around 80 engine hours during
>> that time which is about 15 minutes per flight (start, taxi, takeoff,
>> and cool down).  I tow the glider from my hangar to the apron before
>> rigging.
>>
>> And yes, I fly with a different mind set than I did in my LAK-17a:  I
>> must be within range of a runway suitable to make a normal takeoff at
>> all times.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>>
>> On 4/28/21 3:06 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> On 4/28/2021 10:31 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> Yep, and wears out quicker.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> 5J
>>>>
>>>> On 4/27/21 4:48 PM, waremark wrote:
>>>>> cold engine develops more power.
>>>
>>> The typical self-launcher puts maybe 5-10 hours a year on the engine.
>>> If it only lasts 200 hours before a major overall, that's 20 to 40
>>> years! The Stemme is usual for a self-launcher because it's also a
>>> good airplane, and 200 hours might be only two or three years.
>>>
>
>