'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.

It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
would be.

I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.

Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › contumacious
You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
an order...

- The prosecutors eventually conceded that on Sunday evening,
they will give the defense the name of one witness. And if Trump
abuses the witness, there won't be any further courtesies.

When the issue was first raised, the judge was sympathetic with
the prosecution.

When Trump's attorneys tried to offer assurances that they
wouldn't let Trump do anything with names, the judge didn't
think they should 'make that representation.' Court jargon,
but fairly clear.

--
Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>
> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
> would be.
>
> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
>
> Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
> Vocabulary.com
> https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › contumacious
> You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
> describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
> an order...

An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia" is a
trial when the defendant does not appear in court.

A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank robbery.

On 20/04/2024 8:05 p.m., Silvano wrote:
> Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>>
>> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
>> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
>> would be.
>>
>> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
>> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
>> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
>>
>> Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
>> Vocabulary.com
>> https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › contumacious
>> You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
>> describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
>> an order...
>
>
> An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia" is a
> trial when the defendant does not appear in court.
>
> A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
> defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank robbery.

So the more usual reason would be that the defendant has quite
deliberately not appeared, i.e. "jumped bail" as we say, flouting the
obligation to appear for further proceedings.

Latin contumax 'haughty, insolent, stubborn, obstinate'

Rich Ulrich wrote:

> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.

I think the one time I /heard/ it was when we were reading
Dante's /Inferno/ (Ciardi trans.) in high school English, and
I asked the teacher where Dante would have put Jews.

> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
> would be.

> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
...

Me neither.

--
Jerry Friedman

Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote or quoted:
>When Trump's attorneys tried to offer assurances that they
>wouldn't let Trump do anything with names, the judge didn't
>think they should 'make that representation.' Court jargon,
>but fairly clear.

"To represent" can mean "to state" ("to claim", "to declare")
in formal English.

When you're "representing" something in court, you're stating it
formally, taking on the legal responsibility for making sure what
you're saying is the real deal. If your "representation" is off the
mark, that could be considered fraud, and that's some serious stuff
that could land you in court or even in hot water with the law.

(But then that same verb can also have other meanings in a different
context, even in court.)

(I'm writing this for the benefit of any beginner-level foreign
language speakers reading along. Of course, no regular here needs
English tutoring from me.)

On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:35:21 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On 20/04/2024 8:05 p.m., Silvano wrote:
>> Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
>>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>>>
>>> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
>>> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
>>> would be.
>>>
>>> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
>>> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
>>> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
>>>
>>> Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
>>> Vocabulary.com
>>> https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › contumacious
>>> You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
>>> describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
>>> an order...
>>
>>
>> An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia" is a
>> trial when the defendant does not appear in court.
>>
>> A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
>> defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank robbery.
>
>So the more usual reason would be that the defendant has quite
>deliberately not appeared, i.e. "jumped bail" as we say, flouting the
>obligation to appear for further proceedings.

So, 'false friend' is an exaggeration - just a skew of application.

In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).
Did he kill himself so his family would stay rich?

On the other hand, my mind for trivia brings up a long-ago case,
maybe not the U.S., where a dead PIG was put on trial. I
think it must have been for the ultimate purpose of assigning
responsibility for some damages to the pig's owner. That's a
reconstruction more than a memory.

>
>Latin contumax 'haughty, insolent, stubborn, obstinate'
>

--
Rich Ulrich

On 21/04/2024 5:51 a.m., Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:35:21 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> On 20/04/2024 8:05 p.m., Silvano wrote:
>>> Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
>>>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>>>>
>>>> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
>>>> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
>>>> would be.
>>>>
>>>> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
>>>> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
>>>> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
>>>>
>>>> Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
>>>> Vocabulary.com
>>>> https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › contumacious
>>>> You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
>>>> describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
>>>> an order...
>>>
>>>
>>> An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia" is a
>>> trial when the defendant does not appear in court.
>>>
>>> A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
>>> defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank robbery.
>>
>> So the more usual reason would be that the defendant has quite
>> deliberately not appeared, i.e. "jumped bail" as we say, flouting the
>> obligation to appear for further proceedings.
>
> So, 'false friend' is an exaggeration - just a skew of application.
>
> In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
> IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
> recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).
> Did he kill himself so his family would stay rich?
>
> On the other hand, my mind for trivia brings up a long-ago case,
> maybe not the U.S., where a dead PIG was put on trial. I
> think it must have been for the ultimate purpose of assigning
> responsibility for some damages to the pig's owner. That's a
> reconstruction more than a memory.

Likewise, I have a memory of reading quite recently a reference to a
guilty verdict being pronounced on a person who was already deceased.
But can't recall even what country it was in.

The question seems to be discussed here:

https://www.quora.com/If-the-accused-person-dies-during-a-trial-how-will-the-proceeding-of-the-court-be-dropped
>
>>
>> Latin contumax 'haughty, insolent, stubborn, obstinate'
>>
>

On 20-Apr-24 21:48, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 21/04/2024 5:51 a.m., Rich Ulrich wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:35:21 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/04/2024 8:05 p.m., Silvano wrote:
>>>> Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
>>>>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
>>>>> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
>>>>> would be.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
>>>>> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
>>>>> and acting out.  I had no notion of Courts.
>>>>>
>>>>>      Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
>>>>>      Vocabulary.com
>>>>>      https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › contumacious
>>>>>      You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
>>>>>      describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully
>>>>> disobeys
>>>>> an order...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia"
>>>> is a
>>>> trial when the defendant does not appear in court.
>>>>
>>>> A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
>>>> defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank
>>>> robbery.
>>>
>>> So the more usual reason would be that the defendant has quite
>>> deliberately not appeared, i.e. "jumped bail" as we say, flouting the
>>> obligation to appear for further proceedings.
>>
>> So, 'false friend' is an exaggeration - just a skew of application.
>>
>> In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
>> IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
>> recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).
>> Did he kill himself so his family would stay rich?
>>
>> On the other hand, my mind for trivia brings up a long-ago case,
>> maybe not the U.S., where a dead PIG was put on trial. I
>> think it must have been for the ultimate purpose of assigning
>> responsibility for some damages to the pig's owner.  That's a
>> reconstruction more than a memory.
>
> Likewise, I have a memory of reading quite recently a reference to a
> guilty verdict being pronounced on a person who was already deceased.
> But can't recall even what country it was in.
>
> The question seems to be discussed here:
>
> https://www.quora.com/If-the-accused-person-dies-during-a-trial-how-will-the-proceeding-of-the-court-be-dropped

They probably use the same rulebook as the Nobel Prize Committee.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 08:48:13 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On 21/04/2024 5:51 a.m., Rich Ulrich wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:35:21 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/04/2024 8:05 p.m., Silvano wrote:
>>>> Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
>>>>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
>>>>> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
>>>>> would be.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
>>>>> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
>>>>> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
>>>>> Vocabulary.com
>>>>> https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › contumacious
>>>>> You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
>>>>> describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
>>>>> an order...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia" is a
>>>> trial when the defendant does not appear in court.
>>>>
>>>> A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
>>>> defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank robbery.
>>>
>>> So the more usual reason would be that the defendant has quite
>>> deliberately not appeared, i.e. "jumped bail" as we say, flouting the
>>> obligation to appear for further proceedings.
>>
>> So, 'false friend' is an exaggeration - just a skew of application.
>>
>> In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
>> IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
>> recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).
>> Did he kill himself so his family would stay rich?
>>
>> On the other hand, my mind for trivia brings up a long-ago case,
>> maybe not the U.S., where a dead PIG was put on trial. I
>> think it must have been for the ultimate purpose of assigning
>> responsibility for some damages to the pig's owner. That's a
>> reconstruction more than a memory.
>
>Likewise, I have a memory of reading quite recently a reference to a
>guilty verdict being pronounced on a person who was already deceased.
>But can't recall even what country it was in.
>
>The question seems to be discussed here:
>
>https://www.quora.com/If-the-accused-person-dies-during-a-trial-how-will-the-proceeding-of-the-court-be-dropped

The first reply gives another bit of legal phrase that I never heard.
"The accused’s lawyer will file a Motion In Suggestion Of Death, and
attach a death certificate to it." "In suggestion of..."?

Quora answers suggest, typically for a case with a conviction
but under appeal, the whole conviction will be dropped.

Another reply: One state recently changed a relevant rule, spurred
by a suicide. So, it can vary by state -- therefore, I expect that
it does. But here is another relevant Google result (Wiki, Model
Penal Code).

The Model Penal Code (MPC) is a model act designed to stimulate and
assist U.S. state legislatures to update and standardize the penal
law of the United States.[1][2] The MPC was a project of the
American Law Institute (ALI), and was published in 1962 after a
ten-year drafting period.

>>
>>>
>>> Latin contumax 'haughty, insolent, stubborn, obstinate'
>>>
>>

--
Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich wrote:

> In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
> IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
> recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).

That would not be the case in Denmark. When somebody dies, the property
becomes a "bo" (a juridical unity). The death must be announced in a
special paper, and anyone who thinks that they have a claim agianst the
"bo", must report this claim to the "bo-bestyrer" (a lawyer who handles
the case - appointed if not hired by the family). The lawyer will then
evaluate the claims and pay the legal claims in full if possible and in
part otherwise - respecting 'classified' claims first.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

In article <jjv72j90kf843coh1v5v2dkkjbt22ku16q@4ax.com>,
rich.ulrich@comcast.net says...
>
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:35:21 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >On 20/04/2024 8:05 p.m., Silvano wrote:
> >> Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
> >>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
> >>>
> >>> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
> >>> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
> >>> would be.
> >>>
> >>> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
> >>> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
> >>> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
> >>>
> >>> Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
> >>> Vocabulary.com
> >>> https://www.vocabulary.com ? dictionary ? contumacious
> >>> You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
> >>> describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
> >>> an order...
> >>
> >>
> >> An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia" is a
> >> trial when the defendant does not appear in court.
> >>
> >> A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
> >> defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank robbery.
> >
> >So the more usual reason would be that the defendant has quite
> >deliberately not appeared, i.e. "jumped bail" as we say, flouting the
> >obligation to appear for further proceedings.
>
> So, 'false friend' is an exaggeration - just a skew of application.
>
> In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
> IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
> recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).
> Did he kill himself so his family would stay rich?

He'd already pled guilty and been convicted of sex
crimes.

His victims have successfully claimed against his
estate , and agains the banks they claimed had enabled
him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65879833

"To date, the Epstein estate has paid out more than
$150m to more than 100 of his victims."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65630338
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65879833

Epstein's brother contests that his death-by-hanging was
suicide.

Janet

Rich Ulrich:
> > In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
> > IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
> > recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).
Bertel Lund Hansen:
> That would not be the case in Denmark. When somebody dies, the property
> becomes a "bo" (a juridical unity).

In English, "estate". Someone could sue "the estate of Jeff Epstein".
--
Mark Brader | "As a professional, it's my job to take a slightly dim
Toronto | view of the ... people who will look at my code next.
msb@vex.net | If I am wrong... so much the better!" -- Henry Spencer

On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 11:02:18 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

>In article <jjv72j90kf843coh1v5v2dkkjbt22ku16q@4ax.com>,
>rich.ulrich@comcast.net says...
>>
>> On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:35:21 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 20/04/2024 8:05 p.m., Silvano wrote:
>> >> Rich Ulrich hat am 20.04.2024 um 07:23 geschrieben:
>> >>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>> >>>
>> >>> It was used today when prosecutors preferred NOT to extend
>> >>> the curtesy of telling Trump's lawyers who the first witnesses
>> >>> would be.
>> >>>
>> >>> I did not realize what Google shows me, that the word is alive
>> >>> in the court systems. I just figured contumacious was belligerent
>> >>> and acting out. I had no notion of Courts.
>> >>>
>> >>> Contumacious - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms
>> >>> Vocabulary.com
>> >>> https://www.vocabulary.com ? dictionary ? contumacious
>> >>> You might hear the word contumacious used in a courtroom to
>> >>> describe an uncooperative witness or someone who willfully disobeys
>> >>> an order...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> An interesting false friend. In Italian, a "processo in contumacia" is a
>> >> trial when the defendant does not appear in court.
>> >>
>> >> A rather unusual reason not to appear in court, several years ago: the
>> >> defendant had been shot dead the day before the trial in a bank robbery.
>> >
>> >So the more usual reason would be that the defendant has quite
>> >deliberately not appeared, i.e. "jumped bail" as we say, flouting the
>> >obligation to appear for further proceedings.
>>
>> So, 'false friend' is an exaggeration - just a skew of application.
>>
>> In the U.S., a defendant being dead ordinarily ends things.
>> IIRC, his death/suicide ended the possibility of law suits
>> recovering damages from Jeff Epstein (young girls, sex).
>> Did he kill himself so his family would stay rich?
>
> He'd already pled guilty and been convicted of sex
>crimes.

Wiki -
That had happened many years earlier. He served time (in
unusually nice conditions). There were new charges in 2019.
On August 29, 2019, nineteen days after Epstein was found dead in
his jail cell, the case against Epstein was closed by Judge Berman.

>
> His victims have successfully claimed against his
>estate , and agains the banks they claimed had enabled
>him.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65879833
>
> "To date, the Epstein estate has paid out more than
>$150m to more than 100 of his victims."

Yep, I got the part wrong where I thought his estate could
not be sued. Your article cited above is 2023.

Now that I think about it, I don't see why his death should
ever cancel the prospect of civil cases against his estate.

I know that civil cases do not have to RESPECT the result
of criminal cases, because OJ Simpson was sued for his crimes
after his criminal acquittal.

>
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65630338
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65879833
>
> Epstein's brother contests that his death-by-hanging was
>suicide.

I wrote "death/suicide" because I remembered that not
everyone believed the suicide verdict of the coroner. Now
I see that "leaving his family rich" could not have been a
valid reason for suicide.

--
Rich Ulrich

On 22/04/24 07:25, Rich Ulrich wrote:

> I know that civil cases do not have to RESPECT the result of criminal
> cases, because OJ Simpson was sued for his crimes after his criminal
> acquittal.

Australia has watched, with some degree of amusement, such a case play
itself out just recently.

Two political staffers went to Parliament House late at night, after an
evening of drinking. The next morning the woman was found, naked and
heavily drunk, on a couch in a minister's office. She claimed that he
had raped her.

The rape trial was aborted after misbehaviour by a juror, and never
resumed. Thus, the alleged rapist was never found guilty.

He then sued a TV network over reports that he said had damaged his
reputation. That (civil) case wound up a week or so ago. Unfortunately
for him, the witnesses that appeared in the trial damaged his reputation
even more. The judge's summing up was interesting to hear. It boiled
down to saying that he was clearly a liar and someone not to be trusted,
and that he was not entitled to damages because it was clear beyond all
reasonable doubt that he did rape the woman.

That will not lead to a criminal conviction, because it was a civil
case. But it appears that his name is now mud in Canberra, and all
because he voluntarily chose to sue.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan wrote:

> That will not lead to a criminal conviction, because it was a civil
> case. But it appears that his name is now mud in Canberra, and all
> because he voluntarily chose to sue.

In these depressing times it's nice to see that justice happens once in
a while.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

On 20/04/2024 15:00, jerryfriedman wrote:

>> 'Contumaciously' is a word I haven't heard in, like, forever.
>
> I think the one time I /heard/ it was when we were reading
> Dante's /Inferno/ (Ciardi trans.) in high school English, and
> I asked the teacher where Dante would have put Jews.

Why? Are Jews considered particularly uncooperative witnesses?

And what was your teacher's answer?