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tech / rec.aviation.piloting / Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft

SubjectAuthor
* New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable CommercialLarry Dighera
`* Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable CommerJim Pennino
 `* Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable CommerLarry Dighera
  `- Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable CommerJim Pennino

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New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:47:18 -0800
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 by: Larry Dighera - Sun, 18 Feb 2024 15:47 UTC

New battery with energy density of 391 watts per kilogram could enable
commercial electrically powered aircraft.

Video: https://youtu.be/bMoI9fAPYGk

0:00
24m a US based battery company who have
0:05
just been able to commercialize a semi
0:08
solid state battery with a staggering
0:10
energy density that is now currently in
0:13
production in America they say their new
0:16
battery packs will give an electric car
0:19
1,000 M of range now this actually
0:22
sounds ridiculous when I first read that
0:25
headline I was skeptical I thought
0:27
really come on then I saw the energy
0:29
density of these batteries and 24m I'm
0:33
not lying you could probably put a 100 K
0:37
pack so not an overly large battery pack
0:39
in something like a Tesla Model 3 if it
0:41
was manufactured by this company and it
0:43
would likely give a model 3 1,000 miles
0:47
of range hello my friends welcome to the
0:50
channel I'm Sam Evans you're watching
0:51
the electric Viking this is really
0:53
amazing technology but let's just get
0:55
straight to it let's cut out all the
0:56
crap there's a whole bunch of crap being
0:57
reported by the media it's all great
1:00
stuff but it's sort of you want to know
1:02
the facts right let's get to the
1:03
straight to the numbers early test
1:05
results of these batteries right they
1:07
are lithium metal semisolid State
1:10
batteries that have been manufactured
1:13
now for a few years but now this is like
1:14
a Gen 2 improved version they use an
1:19
eternal light electrolyte which
1:21
apparently is able to solve the dend Dr
1:23
problems of solid state batteries it has
1:27
led to huge improvements in cycle life
1:29
and rate capability for lithium metal
1:32
batteries with unmatched cycle stability
1:34
so the battery packs now are going to
1:36
last a long time previous ones weren't
1:39
lasting that long huge Improvement in
1:42
Gen 2 the other Improvement in Gen 2 is
1:43
higher energy density for a lithium
1:46
metal cell cycling at 1 C discharge 1 C
1:49
charge 24m eternaly batteries allow the
1:52
cells electrolyte allows the cell to
1:55
retain 83% capacity after 500 Cycles so
1:59
so if you fast charge your battery um
2:02
five more than 500 times you're likely
2:04
to have around
2:05
83% in terms of its battery health after
2:09
500 plus Cycles that's not industry
2:11
leading lithium ion phosphate is
2:13
definitely a bit better fair in fact a
2:15
lot better than that it's still pretty
2:17
good though that is equivalent to more
2:19
than
2:21
500,000 M of total driving so after
2:24
you've driven 500,000 Mi you're still
2:26
going to have 83% battery capacity
2:28
theoretically now this has not been
2:31
tested in an electric car yet hopefully
2:34
that'll happen soon this would allow up
2:36
to 1,000 m per charge considering the
2:39
energy density of the battery pack is
2:43
391 watts per
2:46
kilogram 391 watts per kilogram is
2:49
really really good but what we really
2:51
want to know is what's the Pack level
2:54
the Pack level energy density is far
2:56
more important than cell density because
2:58
some cells just can't be packaged very
2:59
well into a package so you find that the
3:02
actual cell energy density it could be
3:04
say 350 you find that in a pack it might
3:07
be only 200 because of the way they're
3:08
packaged but you can package these cells
3:12
very efficiently so the Pack level is
3:16
350 watts per kilogram which is
3:20
665 watts per liter Pack level energy
3:23
density meaning energy density is
3:26
approximately double of where lithium
3:29
Turner batteries so say 2170 4680 cells
3:32
from Tesla for example it's about double
3:34
what they're
3:36
at that is very high energy density you
3:39
can see why they're saying you can get
3:42
1,000 miles of range now of course this
3:45
would depend on the battery pack size
3:46
because realistically you can get 1,000
3:48
miles of range out of any battery if you
3:50
just get a put a bigger and bigger
3:51
battery pack put a massive battery pack
3:53
I mean it's Tesla cyber Tru for example
3:56
you can get that extra battery pack for
3:57
16,000 maybe if you tripled the size of
3:59
that battery pack you could get 1,000
4:01
miles of range right yeah that's not
4:04
really real world here what I believe
4:06
here though is you can put a real world
4:08
siiz battery pack is something that's
4:10
commercially viable but are you going to
4:12
do this no you're not going to do this
4:14
who on earth needs a th000 miles of
4:16
range there is no internal combustion
4:17
car manufactured worldwide and there
4:20
never has been commercially on a
4:22
commercial scale with 1,000 Mi of range
4:25
it's ridiculous you don't need that
4:26
right the most you could ever possibly
4:28
need would be say 600 mil of range and
4:31
that's the thing this battery pack 600
4:34
mil of range maybe you're looking at say
4:37
a 60 Kow hour size pack that is
4:41
incredible this is the point in which we
4:45
see El electric airplanes I'm talking
4:47
jumbo Jets I'm talking you know big
4:50
747s becoming commercially viable there
4:54
are companies now in Europe saying that
4:56
as a result of these batteries
5:00
electric airplanes are completely
5:02
possible not even possible but they are
5:04
just completely feasible they now just
5:06
need more funding to start building them
5:10
so this 24m electrolyte is clearly huge
5:15
it's the future of the EV industry I I
5:17
don't understand why companies say for
5:20
example Porsche uh you know Ferrari
5:23
these companies where people are willing
5:24
to pay2 3
5:26
$400,000 for a super car I mean these
5:29
companies Ferrari for example are saying
5:31
oh you know we're not quite there yet
5:33
Lamborghini is saying the same thing in
5:34
terms of having electric supercars with
5:36
lightweight batteries you could
5:38
absolutely make an electric superc car
5:40
supercars internal combustion engine
5:42
supercars only usually have around 300 M
5:44
of range maximum maximum I mean have a
5:47
look at some of the tests done by
5:49
Massive car magazines they're getting
5:50
about 200 Mi of range out of a Supercar
5:54
if you put in say 300 M of range in a
5:57
superc car the battery you would need
5:59
from 24m would be very very small you
6:02
could easily make a very very
6:06
lightweight electric super car with
6:08
Incredible performance using this
6:10
battery technology which is well really
6:12
from MIT now the founder of this company
6:18
24m he's from the laboratory in MIT so
6:23
this is truly kind of an really an
6:25
American innovation and there are some
6:28
battery companies in the US doing some
6:30
amazing things are they making
6:33
affordable lithiumion phosphate
6:34
batteries like CHL and B no are they
6:38
making incredible Next Generation
6:39
technology like this they are could this
6:42
be the future of the EV industry
6:44
probably not but will it play a part in
6:47
the future absolutely it'll play a part
6:49
in the high-end EVS for example if you
6:52
were to buy say an expensive electric
6:54
car say $80,000 plus this is the kind of
6:58
Technology you want to have in that car
7:00
and I don't see why that won't happen I

Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sun, 18 Feb 2024 16:43 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>
> New battery with energy density of 391 watts per kilogram could enable
> commercial electrically powered aircraft.

First off, energy density has units of Wh/kg (Watt X hour)/ kilogram.

Good lithium-ion batteries have an energy density of about 243 Wh/kg.

392/243=1.6 while the needed factor to make electric airplanes really
practical is about 5.

Yes, I know, any day now just like nuclear fusion, a cure for the common
cold, and peace in the Middle East.

Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 09:59:31 -0800
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 by: Larry Dighera - Thu, 29 Feb 2024 17:59 UTC

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:43:19 -0800, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> New battery with energy density of 391 watts per kilogram could enable
>> commercial electrically powered aircraft.
>
>First off, energy density has units of Wh/kg (Watt X hour)/ kilogram.
>
>Good lithium-ion batteries have an energy density of about 243 Wh/kg.
>
>392/243=1.6 while the needed factor to make electric airplanes really
>practical is about 5.
>
>Yes, I know, any day now just like nuclear fusion, a cure for the common
>cold, and peace in the Middle East.

Hello Jim,

These developing technologies require a bit of time to mature.

Wireless communication, for example, was first discovered by Henry, and
Loomis, and definitively demonstrated by Hertz in ~1884, but it wasn't until
1896 that Marconi began developing it commercially. And broadcast radio
didn't take hold until 1923, about forty years later.

I find the incremental advancements in electric motive power encouraging,
don't you?

Best regards,
Larry

PS: Did you see this?

https://youtu.be/x6wkgqTN4Oc
1,519 views Feb 18, 2024

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Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft

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Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: New Battery with Energy Density of 391 Watts per Klogram Could Enable Commercial Electricall Ppowered Aircraft
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 by: Jim Pennino - Thu, 29 Feb 2024 19:34 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:43:19 -0800, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> New battery with energy density of 391 watts per kilogram could enable
>>> commercial electrically powered aircraft.
>>
>>First off, energy density has units of Wh/kg (Watt X hour)/ kilogram.
>>
>>Good lithium-ion batteries have an energy density of about 243 Wh/kg.
>>
>>392/243=1.6 while the needed factor to make electric airplanes really
>>practical is about 5.
>>
>>Yes, I know, any day now just like nuclear fusion, a cure for the common
>>cold, and peace in the Middle East.
>
> Hello Jim,
>
> These developing technologies require a bit of time to mature.

Batteries are NOT a developing technology and have over 200 years of
history and delvelopment.

Lithium batteries are 112 years old.

Rechargeable Li-ion batteries are about 60 years old.

The physics and chemistry of batteries is well understood.

<snip arm waving>

> I find the incremental advancements in electric motive power encouraging,
> don't you?

Incremental advancements means mostly finding ways to charge batteries
quickly without them bursting into flames and starting a fire that is
nearly impossible to put out.

One more time...

Practical electric aircraft based on batteries requires at least a 5X
increase in capacity and for things like airliners, 10X improvement.

The laws of chemistry and physics will NOT allow this.


> Best regards,
> Larry
>
>
> PS: Did you see this?
>
> https://youtu.be/x6wkgqTN4Oc

Oh whoopee.

A 10 minutes and 20 second steaming pile of arm waving, happy talk, ifs,
mights, coulds and utter nonsenese.

If one bothers to look at the NASA website, the only thing really new
they talk about is putting the first woman and first person of color on
the Moon.

There is nothing about any new engines and all the Artemis mission
engines are old, tried and true designes.

The video is an infomation free promotional video for the David Burns
Helical engine, which would violate the laws of physics.

Read these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helical_engine

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/10/17/for-the-last-time-no-a-nasa-engineer-has-not-broken-physics-with-an-impossible-engine/?sh=5f101bc127bf

No matter what the engine, the energy required to achieve a given
velocity goes up exponentially with the velocity.

The only ways around that are folding space-time and worm holes, both of
which would take enourmous amounts of energy to do, IF it is even
possible.

<snip engine nonsense>

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