St Louis Soaring Association (stlsoar.org) is interested in a winch demonstration and possible training at our home gliderport (H07) in Highland, IL - located 30 miles East of St Louis right off I-70.

We currently aerotow with 2 Pawnees and a Supercub, but are looking at the future sustainability of that method (Cost, Noise, etc) and want to explore other options.

We have a wide but relatively short (2600 x 500 ft) grass airfield, all of it available for winch launches - so launch height would naturally be somewhat limited; however if the decision to go with a winch was made we have the option to extend that to almost 4000' when launching to the North, by locating the winch in a field that we own. That should be enough for some decent height.

Our fleet is almost exclusively glass with CG hooks, K-21s for training.

If anyone has any suggestions, please contact me.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 3:19:20 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> St Louis Soaring Association (stlsoar.org) is interested in a winch demonstration and possible training at our home gliderport (H07) in Highland, IL - located 30 miles East of St Louis right off I-70.
>
> We currently aerotow with 2 Pawnees and a Supercub, but are looking at the future sustainability of that method (Cost, Noise, etc) and want to explore other options.
>
> We have a wide but relatively short (2600 x 500 ft) grass airfield, all of it available for winch launches - so launch height would naturally be somewhat limited; however if the decision to go with a winch was made we have the option to extend that to almost 4000' when launching to the North, by locating the winch in a field that we own. That should be enough for some decent height.
>
> Our fleet is almost exclusively glass with CG hooks, K-21s for training.
>
> If anyone has any suggestions, please contact me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kirk
> 66

Kudos for thinking about a winch as an alternative! Bringing a winch to your field may not be as straight forward as one would think. We can tow our winch legally on public roads but only with the state of SC. Going out of state would require a title, registration and license plate = major headache for a home-built rig.
I invite you and anyone else to come to SC and participate in a winch clinic

would your winch fit on a flatbed car trailer?

I mean, I have done dumber things to get a ride...

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 4:39:23 PM UTC-4, SGS N2062T wrote:
> would your winch fit on a flatbed car trailer?
>
> I mean, I have done dumber things to get a ride...

Hauling a winch on a flat-bed trailer is always an option but I assume that it is a costly endeavor. Might be easier to put the K21 into a trailer and take it to a place that is running a winch. You could pay out only the amount of line equivalent to your line run at your home field and see what it does for you.
Also, I took a look at the field using Google-Earth. To extend the line run into the field to the north - as mentioned by Kirk - would require the closure of a road. If that's that an option, great. The winch would then be placed very close to I-70. Not ideal but doable. What are your prevailing winds on that field? How many days a year would you really launch to the north? All these things would have to be analyzed before making the decision to go for a winch.

Uli
'AS'

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 07:40:01 -0700, AS wrote:

> What are your
> prevailing winds on that field? How many days a year would you really
> launch to the north? All these things would have to be analyzed before
> making the decision to go for a winch.
>
Good points. I'd add a couple more, from the way my club normally
operates.

1) the rule of thumb says that generally launch height is 1/3 the
distance between launch start point and where the winch is placed on our
main run (04/22 with 22 being the prevailing wind direction).
We normally place out winch (a Skylaunch with a truck's V8 running on LPG)
4000 ft from the winch) and typically launch to 1400-1600 ft regardless
of wind speed, though we can hit 2800ft in a strongish wind with a good
speed gradient.

2) despite having a wide grass main run (475ft wide) we typically place
the launch point 500 ft from the downwind boundary so landing gliders can
stop before or just after they reach the launch point. Yes, this adds to
the required runway length, but it makes the launch rate a lot faster
since theres no wait while the landed glider is moved back out of the
danger zone for failed launches.

3) Our other run (16/320, 2800 ft x 300ft) is shorter and narrower with
no landing area behind the launch point. The result is a very low launch
rate because almost every landing stops well past the launch point, so
launching stops while a golf buggy gets the glider and puts it on the
back of the launch queue. Launches on it seldom exceed 900 ft.

HTH

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Kirk,

Sandhill Soaring Club has a similar situation in terms of runway length and winch setup (we use an adjoining field to launch sometimes). Please message me and I can put you in contact with our Chief Flight Instructor who can tell you a bit more about our operation.

Thanks,
Chris Schrader (I mostly fly "CN")

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 3:19:20 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> St Louis Soaring Association (stlsoar.org) is interested in a winch demonstration and possible training at our home gliderport (H07) in Highland, IL - located 30 miles East of St Louis right off I-70.
>
> We currently aerotow with 2 Pawnees and a Supercub, but are looking at the future sustainability of that method (Cost, Noise, etc) and want to explore other options.
>
> We have a wide but relatively short (2600 x 500 ft) grass airfield, all of it available for winch launches - so launch height would naturally be somewhat limited; however if the decision to go with a winch was made we have the option to extend that to almost 4000' when launching to the North, by locating the winch in a field that we own. That should be enough for some decent height.
>
> Our fleet is almost exclusively glass with CG hooks, K-21s for training.
>
> If anyone has any suggestions, please contact me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kirk
> 66

Some quick answers to above questions:

1. Our club owns the field north of the runway, and the road in question is a farm right-of-way with very limited traffic. It would likely not be a big issue to hold up a launch when a vehicle approaches. On the other hand, when the field is actively being cultivated/harvested, access would be limited. Expensive option would be to convert the north field into a runway, which would solve several problems, but I'm not ready to tackle that mountain yet!

2. We probably do equal launches from both ends - and prefer aerotow launches on 36 for convenience and noise, even accepting a few knots of tailwind (in fact, we usually land our Pawnees downwind on 18 when able as it speeds up ops and is counterintuitively safer (!) when launching on 36). Winch launches on 18 would be limited to a max of 2600' pullout for the foreseeable future. A truck-mounted winch should have no problem launching from the north end of field next to I-70, giving pretty close to 4000'. Glider landings are usually on the center of the grass field (towplanes on the east "marked" landing strip), so staging would take time regardless of launch type. With a club fleet of 4 two-seat trainers (K-21s, G-103, K-13) and 4 single seat (G-102s and Astir CSs), plus 12 private ships, all CG hook equipped, I think we could keep a winch busy pretty easily (thinking of a 2-drum at least).

3. Typical of most US clubs (in my experience, at least) there is very little knowledge at SLSA about winch launching. I'm fortunate to have learned winch launching early on in Germany at a glider club located on Wittmund AB (home of JG-71 Richtofen at the time) in Ka-4, K-7, and solo in K-8s, then more recently took advantage of Karl Striedieck's incredible course at Eagle Field to get my sign off (and get flung onto the ridge in my LS6 behind his monster truck!). Been trying to get others to try it, but they all prefer being dragged around by a Pawnee (mind, you, I'm perfectly happy to do the dragging - l love Pawnees!) and think winches are a dangerous socialist plot of some kind. But seriously, I really think it is the future...possibly the only viable future for affordable and "sustainable" soaring.

Cheers!

One may find that the real estate acquisition for a 4,000' + runway to get a decent winch launch height is more expensive than a Pawnee.

Be careful with trailers from South Carolina as people there don't need to plate them, including glider trailers.

Highway patrols outside SC may not be accommodating, but the Illinois fellow I bought my glider from had been driving around for some years on a SC souvenir plate that the first owner had put on.

On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 8:00:23 AM UTC-5, georg...@gmail.com wrote:
> One may find that the real estate acquisition for a 4,000' + runway to get a decent winch launch height is more expensive than a Pawnee.

Two things: We already own the property, and you don't need a 4000' runway, just 4000' clear for the cable (as long as you only care about launching one way - to the North, in our case). If we wanted 4000' to the south, we would have to extend our runway to the North, enough to move and launch gliders; no impossible but not free.

Kirk

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 12:19:19 -0700 (PDT), "kirk.stant"
<kirk.stant@gmail.com> wrote:

>St Louis Soaring Association (stlsoar.org) is interested in a winch demonstration and possible training at our home gliderport (H07) in Highland, IL - located 30 miles East of St Louis right off I-70.
>
>We currently aerotow with 2 Pawnees and a Supercub, but are looking at the future sustainability of that method (Cost, Noise, etc) and want to explore other options.
>
>We have a wide but relatively short (2600 x 500 ft) grass airfield, all of it available for winch launches - so launch height would naturally be somewhat limited; however if the decision to go with a winch was made we have the option to extend that to almost 4000' when launching to the North, by locating the winch in a field that we own. That should be enough for some decent height.
>
>Our fleet is almost exclusively glass with CG hooks, K-21s for training.
>
>If anyone has any suggestions, please contact me.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Kirk
>66

Just noticed this post.

In the summer of 2015 Texas Soaring Assocation invited Roman Wrosz to
bring his winch to TSA along with one of his instructors for a Winch
Camp. Roman charged a fixed fee for transport and a per flight charge
for each student. We were able to get a number of our members ground
launch checked out, and were very happy with the camp.

We were able to use the full lengh of our grass/asphalt runway (around
4500 ft) and were able to get around 1200ft with mostly crosswinds.

We do have CG hooks on our fleet of three K21s.

Check with Roman to see if he is still offering this service.
http://www.romansdesign.com/about_us.htm

Bob