Eric, thanks for engaging. As someone on the fence in regards to electric, I find this thread and similar very valuable. In fact I thank the doubters as well, as without them we wouldn’t have these discussions.

Ramy

On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 6:38:45 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/11/2021 7:50 PM, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:23:38 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 8/11/2021 2:22 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> >...
> >>> It would not seem to be a good idea to use a conductive box to contain pouch type cells that could be prone to abrasion and shorting.
> >>> I suspect that the new boxes in the FES gliders are glass. The box in my electric ASW-24E is glass. I'm using 18650 cells.
> >>> "Nail tests" have been done on grouped 18650 cells that did not exhibit runaway when a cell was shorted. Soaring magazine had a photo of
> >>> such a test.
> >>> FWIW
> >>> UH
> >> That's the Feb 2018 issue. From the article "Electric Propulsion in Gliders Is More Than
> >> an Alternative to Traditional Combustion Engines"
> >>
> >> "The temperature near the nailed cell was measured with a thermocouple, and indicated >
> >> 500C. These tests have been made several times. At no time was there a chain reaction
> >> leading to thermal runaway or short-circuit of surrounding cells. The voltage level of the
> >> cell package after the test was nearly the same as before. Figure 15 shows different cell
> >> packages after a nail-test."
> >
> > That points toward a LiFePo4 cell. Those are notoriously stable, to the point that causing a physical breach hardly affects their internal voltage..
> >
> > LiFePo4 are popular in busses and other EVs which require frequent power surges. The takeoff and initial climbout of a glider are a natural fit for them, although their power density is 20-40% lower than other lithium batteries so they have their limitations.
> >
> > I applaud your careful reading and study of the science and experience, as they show the daily truth for the billions of lithium batteries out there. I encourage you to join myself and others in not engaging with those who wear their confirmation bias too proudly. They shout out there was an explosion in NZ, despite the accident report to the contrary: https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf. They would have us believe that every cell is an inevitable catastrophe, despite that in the APS Arizona thermal runaway event four of the five primary contributing factors were insufficient design and insufficient response.
> >
> > Those who have expressed clearly they have no interest in being part of the future have little role to play in a conversation about how we're going to get there.
> >
> I engage with the doubters because their pessimism and bias may dissuade other pilots from
> considering electric gliders, and because once in a while, I learn something useful from
> them ("even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut"). I do wish they would focus on glider
> applications instead of utility-scale power banks with their huge energies, and also
> ignore cars, which have 10 times the cell quantities in dense, water cooled assemblies.
>
> The cell used in the Soaring article's "nail test" was a Panasonic 18650PD, which is NMC
> chemistry like the Murata VTC6.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 7:26:49 AM UTC-4, wtwisn...@gmail.com wrote:
>...A new glider design may make it possible to also eject the battery in flight or on the ground. ...

This could start a wildfire, but I guess that is preferable to the glider crashing and starting a wildfire. The battery could melt a hole and drop it.. Glider could fly clear. Forest fire would destroy the traceable evidence, so no bad PR for the sport, and no liability for the pilot.

Seriously though. We've already seen that improvements in design and manufacturing can greatly reduce the possibility of a battery fire. The goal should be Zero battery fires.

Hmm, I guess if the battery melts a hole, drops and starts a fire it will be less of a liability/conscious issue than the pilot ejecting the battery and starting a fire…

Ramy
On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 5:49:11 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 7:26:49 AM UTC-4, wtwisn...@gmail.com wrote:
> >...A new glider design may make it possible to also eject the battery in flight or on the ground. ...
>
> This could start a wildfire, but I guess that is preferable to the glider crashing and starting a wildfire. The battery could melt a hole and drop it. Glider could fly clear. Forest fire would destroy the traceable evidence, so no bad PR for the sport, and no liability for the pilot.
>
> Seriously though. We've already seen that improvements in design and manufacturing can greatly reduce the possibility of a battery fire. The goal should be Zero battery fires.

It's nice to know there are some "lurkers" and its not just Tom, Dave, me, and sometimes
Kenn wandering around in the weeds :^)

On 8/12/2021 1:11 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Eric, thanks for engaging. As someone on the fence in regards to electric, I find this thread and similar very valuable. In fact I thank the doubters as well, as without them we wouldn’t have these discussions.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 6:38:45 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
....
>> I engage with the doubters because their pessimism and bias may dissuade other pilots from
>> considering electric gliders, and because once in a while, I learn something useful from
>> them ("even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut"). I do wish they would focus on glider
>> applications instead of utility-scale power banks with their huge energies, and also
>> ignore cars, which have 10 times the cell quantities in dense, water cooled assemblies.
>>
>> The cell used in the Soaring article's "nail test" was a Panasonic 18650PD, which is NMC
>> chemistry like the Murata VTC6.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 8:33:56 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> It's nice to know there are some "lurkers" and its not just Tom, Dave, me, and sometimes
> Kenn wandering around in the weeds :^)
> On 8/12/2021 1:11 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > Eric, thanks for engaging. As someone on the fence in regards to electric, I find this thread and similar very valuable. In fact I thank the doubters as well, as without them we wouldn’t have these discussions.
> >
> > Ramy
> >
> > On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 6:38:45 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ...
> >> I engage with the doubters because their pessimism and bias may dissuade other pilots from
> >> considering electric gliders, and because once in a while, I learn something useful from
> >> them ("even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut"). I do wish they would focus on glider
> >> applications instead of utility-scale power banks with their huge energies, and also
> >> ignore cars, which have 10 times the cell quantities in dense, water cooled assemblies.
> >>
> >> The cell used in the Soaring article's "nail test" was a Panasonic 18650PD, which is NMC
> >> chemistry like the Murata VTC6.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

As before, I look at the evidence: scientific and accident reports. The only "doubters" here are those that dismiss this evidence. Ignoring accidents in cars and large battery banks means ignoring the bulk of the data available because this represents the vast majority of lithium battery uses. Are you promoters going to ignore the findings of PNNL on dendritic growth? Do you really think that gliders are somehow exempt from this phenomena? The single fatal accident of the Taurus Electro puts gliders at the VERY TOP of the fatal accident rate for battery powered vehicles by orders of magnitude - check it out. I have seen exactly ZERO rebuttals citing scientific evidence to the contrary (it is mostly a testimony of faith that the glider manufacturers will produce a "safe" product - save your breath, it is not convincing).

Tom

In an article on Nordicgliding, Uli Kremer from Schleicher stated that they are using LG cells for AS34/AS33Me. These are different cells from AS32El with a slighly higher capacity (see https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/uli-kremer-100-km-er-minimum/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem). These are not of the LiFePO4-type.

In my view, the significant interest in electric motorgliding here in Germany is driven by a few factors:
1) Antares and FES systems have proven that such systems are significantly easier to operate and require less maintenance compared with current 2-stroke/Wankel designs
2) The limited battery capacity is not considered a major limitation.
3) Electric propulsion is seen as the engine technology of the future and the new models are following that trend. Many European countries have announced to stop new models of gas/diesel driven cars from entering their market around 2030. There are also several other projects with electric propulsion in aviation.
4) While there are safety concers with regards to Li-Ion cells (in particular with FES), there is trust in manufacturers to have overcome these.

The first AS34 are expected to be shipped late 2021 once type certificate has been granted by EASA. Current regulations prevent new glider models from being shipped with a temporary Permit to Fly, which was common practice until about 2018.

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 2:31:37 AM UTC-4, Christoph Barniske wrote:
> there is trust in manufacturers to have overcome these.

Is a certain German manufacturer still delivering aircraft with wiring all one color? I'm simply curious.

T8

On 8/12/2021 9:13 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 8:33:56 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> It's nice to know there are some "lurkers" and its not just Tom, Dave, me, and sometimes
>> Kenn wandering around in the weeds :^)
>> On 8/12/2021 1:11 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>> Eric, thanks for engaging. As someone on the fence in regards to electric, I find this thread and similar very valuable. In fact I thank the doubters as well, as without them we wouldn’t have these discussions.
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 6:38:45 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> ...
>>>> I engage with the doubters because their pessimism and bias may dissuade other pilots from
>>>> considering electric gliders, and because once in a while, I learn something useful from
>>>> them ("even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut"). I do wish they would focus on glider
>>>> applications instead of utility-scale power banks with their huge energies, and also
>>>> ignore cars, which have 10 times the cell quantities in dense, water cooled assemblies.
>>>>
>>>> The cell used in the Soaring article's "nail test" was a Panasonic 18650PD, which is NMC
>>>> chemistry like the Murata VTC6.
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> As before, I look at the evidence: scientific and accident reports. The only "doubters" here are those that dismiss this evidence. Ignoring accidents in cars and large battery banks means ignoring the bulk of the data available because this represents the vast majority of lithium battery uses. Are you promoters going to ignore the findings of PNNL on dendritic growth? Do you really think that gliders are somehow exempt from this phenomena? The single fatal accident of the Taurus Electro puts gliders at the VERY TOP of the fatal accident rate for battery powered vehicles by orders of magnitude - check it out. I have seen exactly ZERO rebuttals citing scientific evidence to the contrary (it is mostly a testimony of faith that the glider manufacturers will produce a "safe" product - save your breath, it is not convincing).
>
> Tom
>
Battery fires are not the only dangers we face when flying motorized gliders. Gasoline
gliders have had fires, even models like the one you fly. They can come from exhaust
leaks, bearing failures, even the starter battery! The complexity of the gasoline glider
engine management has contributed to crashes that could be avoided with simpler systems.
Engines have failed during the launch, leading to accidents. Our goal should be the
reducing the overall danger, and not just the danger from one specific item in the power
system.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On 8/13/21 12:31 AM, Christoph Barniske wrote:
> In an article on Nordicgliding, Uli Kremer from Schleicher stated that they are using LG cells for AS34/AS33Me. These are different cells from AS32El with a slighly higher capacity (see https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/uli-kremer-100-km-er-minimum/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem). These are not of the LiFePO4-type.
>
> In my view, the significant interest in electric motorgliding here in Germany is driven by a few factors:
> 1) Antares and FES systems have proven that such systems are significantly easier to operate and require less maintenance compared with current 2-stroke/Wankel designs
> 2) The limited battery capacity is not considered a major limitation.
> 3) Electric propulsion is seen as the engine technology of the future and the new models are following that trend. Many European countries have announced to stop new models of gas/diesel driven cars from entering their market around 2030. There are also several other projects with electric propulsion in aviation.
> 4) While there are safety concers with regards to Li-Ion cells (in particular with FES), there is trust in manufacturers to have overcome these.
>
> The first AS34 are expected to be shipped late 2021 once type certificate has been granted by EASA. Current regulations prevent new glider models from being shipped with a temporary Permit to Fly, which was common practice until about 2018.
>

Certainly a lot of hope and trust displayed in your posting. We can
hope and trust LG cells won't be a problem in gliders as they have been
in other applications.

You would think that electric motorgliders would be highly reliable but
the reality is that they've demonstrated their own set of problems.
Antares was not a low-maintenance aircraft, at least according to the
former U.S. dealer, who dealt with a number of problems in his own ship.
FES gliders got off to a terrible start with the fires, but even
beyond that they have overheat issues, prop strikes, and other things.

Maybe someday they'll mature into the fantastic products that some
people think they already are. For now, they're just another option
with their own set of limitations and problems.

-Dave

On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 11:31:37 PM UTC-7, Christoph Barniske wrote:
> In an article on Nordicgliding, Uli Kremer from Schleicher stated that they are using LG cells for AS34/AS33Me. These are different cells from AS32El with a slighly higher capacity (see https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/uli-kremer-100-km-er-minimum/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem). These are not of the LiFePO4-type.
>
> In my view, the significant interest in electric motorgliding here in Germany is driven by a few factors:
> 1) Antares and FES systems have proven that such systems are significantly easier to operate and require less maintenance compared with current 2-stroke/Wankel designs
> 2) The limited battery capacity is not considered a major limitation.
> 3) Electric propulsion is seen as the engine technology of the future and the new models are following that trend. Many European countries have announced to stop new models of gas/diesel driven cars from entering their market around 2030. There are also several other projects with electric propulsion in aviation.
> 4) While there are safety concers with regards to Li-Ion cells (in particular with FES), there is trust in manufacturers to have overcome these.
>
> The first AS34 are expected to be shipped late 2021 once type certificate has been granted by EASA. Current regulations prevent new glider models from being shipped with a temporary Permit to Fly, which was common practice until about 2018.

That article only lists who the battery manufacturer is, not which battery or chemistry they are using (this is critical).

I was particularly interested in German aircraft noise regulations are their impact on ICE motorgliders. I have been told (by a German) that each motorglider in Germany has to be tested for noise levels before getting an airworthiness certificate.

The bottom line is that the fatality rate with electric gliders is very high on a per-hour operation basis. I know of no gas motorgliders that have exploded in mid-air or on the ground. The science behind these battery fire events is undeniable by an unbiased person. Trust is not a logically based decision - it is an emotional one.

Tom

On 8/13/2021 8:09 AM, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/13/21 12:31 AM, Christoph Barniske wrote:
>> In an article on Nordicgliding, Uli Kremer from Schleicher stated that they are using LG
>> cells for AS34/AS33Me. These are different cells from AS32El with a slighly higher
>> capacity (see
>> https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/uli-kremer-100-km-er-minimum/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem).
>> These are not of the LiFePO4-type.
>>
>> In my view, the significant interest in electric motorgliding here in Germany is driven
>> by a few factors:
>> 1) Antares and FES systems have proven that such systems are significantly easier to
>> operate and require less maintenance compared with current 2-stroke/Wankel designs
>> 2) The limited battery capacity is not considered a major limitation.
>> 3) Electric propulsion is seen as the engine technology of the future and the new models
>> are following that trend. Many European countries have announced to stop new models of
>> gas/diesel driven cars from entering their market around 2030. There are also several
>> other projects with electric propulsion in aviation.
>> 4) While there are safety concers with regards to Li-Ion cells (in particular with FES),
>> there is trust in manufacturers to have overcome these.
>>
>> The first AS34 are expected to be shipped late 2021 once type certificate has been
>> granted by EASA. Current regulations prevent new glider models from being shipped with a
>> temporary Permit to Fly, which was common practice until about 2018.
>>
>
> Certainly a lot of hope and trust displayed in your posting.  We can hope and trust LG
> cells won't be a problem in gliders as they have been in other applications.
>
> You would think that electric motorgliders would be highly reliable but the reality is
> that they've demonstrated their own set of problems. Antares was not a low-maintenance
> aircraft, at least according to the former U.S. dealer, who dealt with a number of
> problems in his own ship.  FES gliders got off to a terrible start with the fires, but
> even beyond that they have overheat issues, prop strikes, and other things.
>
> Maybe someday they'll mature into the fantastic products that some people think they
> already are.  For now, they're just another option with their own set of limitations and
> problems.
>
> -Dave

To see all the nitty-gritty problems the FES owners are facing, I suggest you visit the
FES owners groups. I was able to find two: one for the miniLak (link on the US dealer's
site), and one to which Matthew Scutter directed me (I've lost the link). Both were quite
boring, with *very* few posts, none particularly interesting. I asked Matthew about why
there was so little activity on them, and he replied (summarizing): You charge it, you fly
it; you charge it, you fly it; there's not much to talk about.

I've also monitored the Schleicher and DG self-launch groups, and as you know, there is
almost continuous discussion of various issues. I should not have been surprised at the
FES groups lack of discussion, as the FES is much simpler mechanically than the "gas
engine on a stick" systems used by DG and Schleicher. I'm not suggesting they are
trouble-free, but I am saying they seem to trouble their owners a lot less than the
fossil-fueled variety.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

If anyone has the link to the FES group please share.

Ramy

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 10:21:29 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 8:09 AM, kinsell wrote:
> > On 8/13/21 12:31 AM, Christoph Barniske wrote:
> >> In an article on Nordicgliding, Uli Kremer from Schleicher stated that they are using LG
> >> cells for AS34/AS33Me. These are different cells from AS32El with a slighly higher
> >> capacity (see
> >> https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/uli-kremer-100-km-er-minimum/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem).
> >> These are not of the LiFePO4-type.
> >>
> >> In my view, the significant interest in electric motorgliding here in Germany is driven
> >> by a few factors:
> >> 1) Antares and FES systems have proven that such systems are significantly easier to
> >> operate and require less maintenance compared with current 2-stroke/Wankel designs
> >> 2) The limited battery capacity is not considered a major limitation.
> >> 3) Electric propulsion is seen as the engine technology of the future and the new models
> >> are following that trend. Many European countries have announced to stop new models of
> >> gas/diesel driven cars from entering their market around 2030. There are also several
> >> other projects with electric propulsion in aviation.
> >> 4) While there are safety concers with regards to Li-Ion cells (in particular with FES),
> >> there is trust in manufacturers to have overcome these.
> >>
> >> The first AS34 are expected to be shipped late 2021 once type certificate has been
> >> granted by EASA. Current regulations prevent new glider models from being shipped with a
> >> temporary Permit to Fly, which was common practice until about 2018.
> >>
> >
> > Certainly a lot of hope and trust displayed in your posting. We can hope and trust LG
> > cells won't be a problem in gliders as they have been in other applications.
> >
> > You would think that electric motorgliders would be highly reliable but the reality is
> > that they've demonstrated their own set of problems. Antares was not a low-maintenance
> > aircraft, at least according to the former U.S. dealer, who dealt with a number of
> > problems in his own ship. FES gliders got off to a terrible start with the fires, but
> > even beyond that they have overheat issues, prop strikes, and other things.
> >
> > Maybe someday they'll mature into the fantastic products that some people think they
> > already are. For now, they're just another option with their own set of limitations and
> > problems.
> >
> > -Dave
> To see all the nitty-gritty problems the FES owners are facing, I suggest you visit the
> FES owners groups. I was able to find two: one for the miniLak (link on the US dealer's
> site), and one to which Matthew Scutter directed me (I've lost the link). Both were quite
> boring, with *very* few posts, none particularly interesting. I asked Matthew about why
> there was so little activity on them, and he replied (summarizing): You charge it, you fly
> it; you charge it, you fly it; there's not much to talk about.
>
> I've also monitored the Schleicher and DG self-launch groups, and as you know, there is
> almost continuous discussion of various issues. I should not have been surprised at the
> FES groups lack of discussion, as the FES is much simpler mechanically than the "gas
> engine on a stick" systems used by DG and Schleicher. I'm not suggesting they are
> trouble-free, but I am saying they seem to trouble their owners a lot less than the
> fossil-fueled variety.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On 8/13/21 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 8:09 AM, kinsell wrote:
>> On 8/13/21 12:31 AM, Christoph Barniske wrote:
>>> In an article on Nordicgliding, Uli Kremer from Schleicher stated
>>> that they are using LG cells for AS34/AS33Me. These are different
>>> cells from AS32El with a slighly higher capacity (see
>>> https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/uli-kremer-100-km-er-minimum/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem).
>>> These are not of the LiFePO4-type.
>>>
>>> In my view, the significant interest in electric motorgliding here in
>>> Germany is driven by a few factors:
>>> 1) Antares and FES systems have proven that such systems are
>>> significantly easier to operate and require less maintenance compared
>>> with current 2-stroke/Wankel designs
>>> 2) The limited battery capacity is not considered a major limitation.
>>> 3) Electric propulsion is seen as the engine technology of the future
>>> and the new models are following that trend. Many European countries
>>> have announced to stop new models of gas/diesel driven cars from
>>> entering their market around 2030. There are also several other
>>> projects with electric propulsion in aviation.
>>> 4) While there are safety concers with regards to Li-Ion cells (in
>>> particular with FES), there is trust in manufacturers to have
>>> overcome these.
>>>
>>> The first AS34 are expected to be shipped late 2021 once type
>>> certificate has been granted by EASA. Current regulations prevent new
>>> glider models from being shipped with a temporary Permit to Fly,
>>> which was common practice until about 2018.
>>>
>>
>> Certainly a lot of hope and trust displayed in your posting.  We can
>> hope and trust LG cells won't be a problem in gliders as they have
>> been in other applications.
>>
>> You would think that electric motorgliders would be highly reliable
>> but the reality is that they've demonstrated their own set of
>> problems. Antares was not a low-maintenance aircraft, at least
>> according to the former U.S. dealer, who dealt with a number of
>> problems in his own ship.  FES gliders got off to a terrible start
>> with the fires, but even beyond that they have overheat issues, prop
>> strikes, and other things.
>>
>> Maybe someday they'll mature into the fantastic products that some
>> people think they already are.  For now, they're just another option
>> with their own set of limitations and problems.
>>
>> -Dave
>
> To see all the nitty-gritty problems the FES owners are facing, I
> suggest you visit the FES owners groups. I was able to find two: one for
> the miniLak (link on the US dealer's site), and one to which Matthew
> Scutter directed me (I've lost the link). Both were quite boring, with
> *very* few posts, none particularly interesting. I asked Matthew about
> why there was so little activity on them, and he replied (summarizing):
> You charge it, you fly it; you charge it, you fly it; there's not much
> to talk about.
>
> I've also monitored the Schleicher and DG self-launch groups, and as you
> know, there is almost continuous discussion of various issues. I should
> not have been surprised at the FES groups lack of discussion, as the FES
> is much simpler mechanically than the "gas engine on a stick" systems
> used by DG and Schleicher. I'm not suggesting they are trouble-free, but
> I am saying they seem to trouble their owners a lot less than the
> fossil-fueled variety.
>

I agree that's not too much you can work on with FES. If you overheat
your batteries, or your inverter, or your motor, you reduce power or
shut it off. Nothing you can really fix. If your batteries catch fire,
you call the fire department, ditto if you crash through a rooftop.
Second call is to the insurance company.

If these FES ships are so great, I am curious why a substantial portion
of the U.S. Silent 2 fleet seems stuck on W&W. Three there currently,
there have been a couple others taken off without being sold. Super low
time, like new condition, you'd think they'd sell like hotcakes.

On 8/13/2021 12:15 PM, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/13/21 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

>>
>> To see all the nitty-gritty problems the FES owners are facing, I suggest you visit the
>> FES owners groups. I was able to find two: one for the miniLak (link on the US dealer's
>> site), and one to which Matthew Scutter directed me (I've lost the link). Both were
>> quite boring, with *very* few posts, none particularly interesting. I asked Matthew
>> about why there was so little activity on them, and he replied (summarizing): You charge
>> it, you fly it; you charge it, you fly it; there's not much to talk about.
>>
>> I've also monitored the Schleicher and DG self-launch groups, and as you know, there is
>> almost continuous discussion of various issues. I should not have been surprised at the
>> FES groups lack of discussion, as the FES is much simpler mechanically than the "gas
>> engine on a stick" systems used by DG and Schleicher. I'm not suggesting they are
>> trouble-free, but I am saying they seem to trouble their owners a lot less than the
>> fossil-fueled variety.
>>
>
> I agree that's not too much you can work on with FES.  If you overheat your batteries, or
> your inverter, or your motor, you reduce power or shut it off.  Nothing you can really
> fix.  If your batteries catch fire, you call the fire department, ditto if you crash
> through a rooftop. Second call is to the insurance company.
>
> If these FES ships are so great, I am curious why a substantial portion of the U.S. Silent
> 2 fleet seems stuck on W&W.  Three there currently, there have been a couple others taken
> off without being sold.  Super low time, like new condition, you'd think they'd sell like
> hotcakes.

I don't know why they aren't selling well, but if I was really interested, I'd call the
people offering them for sale and ask them. An obvious possible reason is it's the
particular model of glider that people don't like, even if it has an FES. I'd prefer a
miniLak, for example, though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his at
Nephi and Richfield last year. But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
Tom's for over a year.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On 8/13/2021 1:24 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> I'd prefer a
> miniLak, for example, though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his at
> Nephi and Richfield last year. But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
> long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
> Tom's for over a year.

That should be "... though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his SILENT at
Nephi and Richfield last year."

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Friday, 13 August 2021 at 22:32:05 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 1:24 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> > I'd prefer a
> > miniLak, for example, though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his at
> > Nephi and Richfield last year. But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
> > long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
> > Tom's for over a year.
> That should be "... though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his SILENT at
> Nephi and Richfield last year."
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

The conjunction in that sentence is though, not and.

I thought it was clear enough in its full context, before you reduced the quote.

On 8/13/21 2:24 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 12:15 PM, kinsell wrote:
>> On 8/13/21 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>>>
>>> To see all the nitty-gritty problems the FES owners are facing, I
>>> suggest you visit the FES owners groups. I was able to find two: one
>>> for the miniLak (link on the US dealer's site), and one to which
>>> Matthew Scutter directed me (I've lost the link). Both were quite
>>> boring, with *very* few posts, none particularly interesting. I asked
>>> Matthew about why there was so little activity on them, and he
>>> replied (summarizing): You charge it, you fly it; you charge it, you
>>> fly it; there's not much to talk about.
>>>
>>> I've also monitored the Schleicher and DG self-launch groups, and as
>>> you know, there is almost continuous discussion of various issues. I
>>> should not have been surprised at the FES groups lack of discussion,
>>> as the FES is much simpler mechanically than the "gas engine on a
>>> stick" systems used by DG and Schleicher. I'm not suggesting they are
>>> trouble-free, but I am saying they seem to trouble their owners a lot
>>> less than the fossil-fueled variety.
>>>
>>
>> I agree that's not too much you can work on with FES.  If you overheat
>> your batteries, or your inverter, or your motor, you reduce power or
>> shut it off.  Nothing you can really fix.  If your batteries catch
>> fire, you call the fire department, ditto if you crash through a
>> rooftop. Second call is to the insurance company.
>>
>> If these FES ships are so great, I am curious why a substantial
>> portion of the U.S. Silent 2 fleet seems stuck on W&W.  Three there
>> currently, there have been a couple others taken off without being
>> sold.  Super low time, like new condition, you'd think they'd sell
>> like hotcakes.
>
> I don't know why they aren't selling well, but if I was really
> interested, I'd call the people offering them for sale and ask them. An
> obvious possible reason is it's the particular model of glider that
> people don't like, even if it has an FES. I'd prefer a miniLak, for
> example, though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his at
> Nephi and Richfield last year. But it's not just the Silents that can
> sit on W&W for a long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W
> for months and months, including Tom's for over a year.
>
>

You're talking about Jeff Banks, who bought an ASH-31Mi this year??

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2021&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=10497

Calling owners is one possibility, but hate to since I don't have a real
interest in buying. Plus, somebody trying to sell something generally
is not very candid on what its limitations are.

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 1:24:55 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 12:15 PM, kinsell wrote:
> > On 8/13/21 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> >>
> >> To see all the nitty-gritty problems the FES owners are facing, I suggest you visit the
> >> FES owners groups. I was able to find two: one for the miniLak (link on the US dealer's
> >> site), and one to which Matthew Scutter directed me (I've lost the link). Both were
> >> quite boring, with *very* few posts, none particularly interesting. I asked Matthew
> >> about why there was so little activity on them, and he replied (summarizing): You charge
> >> it, you fly it; you charge it, you fly it; there's not much to talk about.
> >>
> >> I've also monitored the Schleicher and DG self-launch groups, and as you know, there is
> >> almost continuous discussion of various issues. I should not have been surprised at the
> >> FES groups lack of discussion, as the FES is much simpler mechanically than the "gas
> >> engine on a stick" systems used by DG and Schleicher. I'm not suggesting they are
> >> trouble-free, but I am saying they seem to trouble their owners a lot less than the
> >> fossil-fueled variety.
> >>
> >
> > I agree that's not too much you can work on with FES. If you overheat your batteries, or
> > your inverter, or your motor, you reduce power or shut it off. Nothing you can really
> > fix. If your batteries catch fire, you call the fire department, ditto if you crash
> > through a rooftop. Second call is to the insurance company.
> >
> > If these FES ships are so great, I am curious why a substantial portion of the U.S. Silent
> > 2 fleet seems stuck on W&W. Three there currently, there have been a couple others taken
> > off without being sold. Super low time, like new condition, you'd think they'd sell like
> > hotcakes.
> I don't know why they aren't selling well, but if I was really interested, I'd call the
> people offering them for sale and ask them. An obvious possible reason is it's the
> particular model of glider that people don't like, even if it has an FES. I'd prefer a
> miniLak, for example, though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his at
> Nephi and Richfield last year. But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
> long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
> Tom's for over a year.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

I can tell you why my ASH26e didn't sell for over 2 years: an Eastern European company offered a brand-new electric motorglider with comparable performance at a lower price. Only catch? They never delivered the goods, but are excellent at producing excuses.

Tom

On 8/13/2021 5:53 PM, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/13/21 2:24 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
....
>> I don't know why they aren't selling well, but if I was really interested, I'd call the
>> people offering them for sale and ask them. An obvious possible reason is it's the
>> particular model of glider that people don't like, even if it has an FES. I'd prefer a
>> miniLak, for example, though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with his at
>> Nephi and Richfield last year. But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
>> long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
>> Tom's for over a year.
>>
>>
>
> You're talking about Jeff Banks, who bought an ASH-31Mi this year??
>
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2021&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=10497
>
>
> Calling owners is one possibility, but hate to since I don't have a real interest in
> buying.  Plus, somebody trying to sell something generally is not very candid on what its
> limitations are.

I sort of remember he'd had a JS3 RES on order for while, bought the Silent to bridge the
gap till he got it, discovered an ASH31Mi he could get immediately instead of waiting a
long time for the JS3, so he bought it. I think it's the one from Brazil.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On 8/14/21 7:09 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 5:53 PM, kinsell wrote:
>> On 8/13/21 2:24 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ...
>>> I don't know why they aren't selling well, but if I was really
>>> interested, I'd call the people offering them for sale and ask them.
>>> An obvious possible reason is it's the particular model of glider
>>> that people don't like, even if it has an FES. I'd prefer a miniLak,
>>> for example, though I was impressed with how well Jeff Banks did with
>>> his at Nephi and Richfield last year. But it's not just the Silents
>>> that can sit on W&W for a long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4
>>> ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including Tom's for over a year.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You're talking about Jeff Banks, who bought an ASH-31Mi this year??
>>
>> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2021&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=10497
>>
>>
>>
>> Calling owners is one possibility, but hate to since I don't have a
>> real interest in buying.  Plus, somebody trying to sell something
>> generally is not very candid on what its limitations are.
>
> I sort of remember he'd had a JS3 RES on order for while, bought the
> Silent to bridge the gap till he got it, discovered an ASH31Mi he could
> get immediately instead of waiting a long time for the JS3, so he bought
> it. I think it's the one from Brazil.
>

Yep, bought the one from Brazil. He landed his Electro out when flying
from Heber City, didn't have the juice to make it back. Maybe that
factored in his decision to go ICE?

FAA registry shows he still owns the Electro, make him an offer and you
too can be flying electric.

Dave

On 8/13/2021 6:41 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 1:24:55 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
....
> But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
>> long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
>> Tom's for over a year.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> I can tell you why my ASH26e didn't sell for over 2 years: an Eastern European company offered a brand-new electric motorglider with comparable performance at a lower price. Only catch? They never delivered the goods, but are excellent at producing excuses.
>
> Tom
>
Ah, so that's why GP Gliders and their Jetta are on your hit list ;^)

You started with a price on the high side, so it was unlikely to sell quickly; Covid came
along before you had a chance to adjust it and BOOM! even glider pilots were thinking
spending a big pile of money was not a good plan. Bad luck - not something you could have
anticipated.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On 8/13/2021 10:13 AM, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 11:31:37 PM UTC-7, Christoph Barniske wrote:
>> In an article on Nordicgliding, Uli Kremer from Schleicher stated that they are using LG cells for AS34/AS33Me. These are different cells from AS32El with a slighly higher capacity (see https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/uli-kremer-100-km-er-minimum/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem). These are not of the LiFePO4-type.
>>
>> In my view, the significant interest in electric motorgliding here in Germany is driven by a few factors:
>> 1) Antares and FES systems have proven that such systems are significantly easier to operate and require less maintenance compared with current 2-stroke/Wankel designs
>> 2) The limited battery capacity is not considered a major limitation.
>> 3) Electric propulsion is seen as the engine technology of the future and the new models are following that trend. Many European countries have announced to stop new models of gas/diesel driven cars from entering their market around 2030. There are also several other projects with electric propulsion in aviation.
>> 4) While there are safety concers with regards to Li-Ion cells (in particular with FES), there is trust in manufacturers to have overcome these.
>>
>> The first AS34 are expected to be shipped late 2021 once type certificate has been granted by EASA. Current regulations prevent new glider models from being shipped with a temporary Permit to Fly, which was common practice until about 2018.
>
> That article only lists who the battery manufacturer is, not which battery or chemistry they are using (this is critical).
>
> I was particularly interested in German aircraft noise regulations are their impact on ICE motorgliders. I have been told (by a German) that each motorglider in Germany has to be tested for noise levels before getting an airworthiness certificate.
>
> The bottom line is that the fatality rate with electric gliders is very high on a per-hour operation basis. I know of no gas motorgliders that have exploded in mid-air or on the ground. The science behind these battery fire events is undeniable by an unbiased person. Trust is not a logically based decision - it is an emotional one.
>

The only LG 18650 cell that fits the description is the LG18650HG2 (NMC chemistry),
essentially the same as the Sony/Murata VTC6.

The German noise regulations have impacted glider design for at least 30 years, and are
the main reason gliders have "buried" engines instead of the previous "engine on a stick"
configuration. My ASH26E POH list the noise emissions standards used for certification,
and the noise level measurement of 60.7 dB(A).

Which motorglider exploded in the air? I think I'd remember that, but I don't.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Motorgliders in German register require a noise certificate ("Lärmschutzzeugnis") from the federal aviation authority LBA. This certificate contains a noise rating. Some airfields have operational restrictions for aircraft with a higher noise rating. However, there are usually no restrictions for self launching gliders with their engine mounted within the fuselage.

I witnessed a launch of the AS34 prototype last Friday. It is indeed relatively quite compared to the noise level of usual self launchers. The AS34 and the Silent 2 are difficult to compare in many aspects. The Silent 2 is certified in the Ultralight category, the AS34 will be a CS-22 certified glider.

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 7:40:23 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 6:41 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 1:24:55 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ...
> > But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
> >> long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
> >> Tom's for over a year.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > I can tell you why my ASH26e didn't sell for over 2 years: an Eastern European company offered a brand-new electric motorglider with comparable performance at a lower price. Only catch? They never delivered the goods, but are excellent at producing excuses.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> Ah, so that's why GP Gliders and their Jetta are on your hit list ;^)
>
> You started with a price on the high side, so it was unlikely to sell quickly; Covid came
> along before you had a chance to adjust it and BOOM! even glider pilots were thinking
> spending a big pile of money was not a good plan. Bad luck - not something you could have
> anticipated.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

GP Gliders is on my "hit list" because they are frauds. Yes, they have defrauded me as well as you!

Tom

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 7:40:23 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/13/2021 6:41 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 1:24:55 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ...
> > But it's not just the Silents that can sit on W&W for a
> >> long time. Last year, there were 3 or 4 ASH26Es on W&W for months and months, including
> >> Tom's for over a year.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > I can tell you why my ASH26e didn't sell for over 2 years: an Eastern European company offered a brand-new electric motorglider with comparable performance at a lower price. Only catch? They never delivered the goods, but are excellent at producing excuses.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> Ah, so that's why GP Gliders and their Jetta are on your hit list ;^)
>
> You started with a price on the high side, so it was unlikely to sell quickly; Covid came
> along before you had a chance to adjust it and BOOM! even glider pilots were thinking
> spending a big pile of money was not a good plan. Bad luck - not something you could have
> anticipated.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

No, I didn't start on the "high side" - I started on the fair side. In fact a 26e in worse condition than mine sold for more during this ordeal (I have names and numbers to back this up). The Wuhan virus certainly didn't help as people became more defensive, but that was well after the GP-15 fiasco, so it just extended the pain. But it did get me looking into what was going on at GP Gliders. At least I sold my 26e - you are left holding a bag of promises.

Tom