Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

"The Street finds its own uses for technology." -- William Gibson


tech / rec.audio.pro / Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?MummyChunk
+- Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?John Williamson
+* Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?Scott Dorsey
|`* Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?Liz Tuddenham
| `* Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?Scott Dorsey
|  `- Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?Liz Tuddenham
`- RE: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?Roy W. Rising

1
Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

<RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=2286&group=rec.audio.pro#2286

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!1.us.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!local-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 00:19:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?
From: mummycul...@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (MummyChunk)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
User-Agent: newsSync 657581394
References: <83982a86-3043-437d-8ea8-25f7c09cd5d7@p13g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 00:19:24 +0000
Lines: 31
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-AWfv/pL9Vuh9NTAUN8vTsrwEVr3tSsYC1CbHI/8F/bIQBbNXjv81fNnPjaUK44EIqjeOijWLagEd4gM!S6vqSezJcDlsoli4RFcBQ7PLGMbKFXPHPNHbuZTPz7JpczPoOMxv6h8gUnhwal+yJAznWx1nw6lf!Mw==
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Lines: 1
 by: MummyChunk - Wed, 20 Dec 2023 00:19 UTC

> muzician21 wrote:
> Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always
sounded
> "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an
LP.
>
> Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any
vinyl
> before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the
Disc
> Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
>
> Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge. My turntable is
an
> SL1200 MK2 with an Audio Technica catridge in good condition.
While
> not a $100k exotic setup it should be up to the task of playing
the
> disc. Clean condition Direct To Disc albums sound great on it.
>
> What's the story with 45's?

Does anybody have a good enough memory to understand if when 45s were
new they still had the difference in sound that you might be hearing
today?

This is a response to the post seen at:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=197245435#197245435

Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

<kufqriFnkp0U1@mid.individual.net>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=2287&group=rec.audio.pro#2287

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.samoylyk.net!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: johnwill...@btinternet.com (John Williamson)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 09:35:45 +0000
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <kufqriFnkp0U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <83982a86-3043-437d-8ea8-25f7c09cd5d7@p13g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
<RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net 7sDlpzTZCfXVMqPvXuaS8Apb/6AAxj9IblOuBGKXpl1Yiq2C84
Cancel-Lock: sha1:2+p0DLR2boS98lbSPxJgt4FsJpI= sha256:mVz6lPJkxhIpEHMTsVMe9VaOE6f6dZ0Ek50qUsqVotE=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:50.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/50.0
In-Reply-To: <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: John Williamson - Wed, 20 Dec 2023 09:35 UTC

On 20/12/2023 00:19, MummyChunk wrote:

> Does anybody have a good enough memory to understand if when 45s were
> new they still had the difference in sound that you might be hearing
> today?
>
>
> This is a response to the post seen at:
> http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=199943242#199943242
>
>
They were often pressed on polystyrene, not vinyl, with the accomanying
surface noise problems and were usually played on decks with a heavy arm
using cartridges with limited compliance. As a result, they got damaged
on the first play, and "as new condition" on eBay as often as not just
means no visible scratches.

Many of them were also over modulated, and very few cartridges can
manage to play them cleanly. Think 128kbps MP3 as the best quality most
of us ever heard from them.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

<uo75g4$hs$1@panix2.panix.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=2298&group=rec.audio.pro#2298

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!news.neodome.net!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!panix!.POSTED.panix2.panix.com!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail
From: klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?
Date: 17 Jan 2024 00:03:16 -0000
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <uo75g4$hs$1@panix2.panix.com>
References: <83982a86-3043-437d-8ea8-25f7c09cd5d7@p13g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com>
Injection-Info: reader1.panix.com; posting-host="panix2.panix.com:166.84.1.2";
logging-data="9549"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@panix.com"
 by: Scott Dorsey - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 00:03 UTC

In article <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com>,
MummyChunk <mummycullen@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
> > muzician21 wrote:
> > Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always
>sounded
> > "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an
>LP.
> >
> > Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any
>vinyl
> > before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the
>Disc
> > Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
> >
> > Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge. My turntable is
>an
> > SL1200 MK2 with an Audio Technica catridge in good condition.
>While
> > not a $100k exotic setup it should be up to the task of playing
>the
> > disc. Clean condition Direct To Disc albums sound great on it.
> >
> > What's the story with 45's?
>
>Does anybody have a good enough memory to understand if when 45s were
>new they still had the difference in sound that you might be hearing
>today?

Two comments:

First of all, 45s were often cut way too hot in order to make the sound
loud on jukeboxes. And often with some aggressive EQ to make them play
without skipping on jukeboxes. This is not conducive to good sound.

Secondly, 45s are usually injection-molded styrene instead of vinyl
pressings, because you can injection mold them a lot faster than you
can press vinyl. For high speed mass production, the process is a win,
and when the discs are new they sound fine. But as soon as they get any
wear on them, the mistracking is much more offensive-sounding than that
of worn vinyl.

You can try using a fineline or van den Hul stylus on worn discs, and
fiddle with the VTA to see if you can find a position where the
distortion is reduced.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

<1qnh8oo.15h1whujl3olsN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=2300&group=rec.audio.pro#2300

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.samoylyk.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: liz...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 12:20:23 +0000
Organization: Poppy Records
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <1qnh8oo.15h1whujl3olsN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>
References: <83982a86-3043-437d-8ea8-25f7c09cd5d7@p13g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com> <uo75g4$hs$1@panix2.panix.com>
X-Trace: individual.net zC5M47jFHBNI05ijYkxekQIBOXD01SbZ5gACRQpryRHZiO19Ni
X-Orig-Path: liz
Cancel-Lock: sha1:OaFJ4ZpHq6P7zyx5Bx+v7He4WE4= sha256:o2bSFD3j0j8Y+UM7xJP0j2AjkDule2qhU/09I5oauQk=
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6
 by: Liz Tuddenham - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 12:20 UTC

Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

[...]
> First of all, 45s were often cut way too hot in order to make the sound
> loud on jukeboxes.

They were very heavily modulated but they didn't sound louder on the
boxes because most juke boxes (certainly all the ones I have worked on)
had automatic volume control, so that E.P.s would play at the same
volume as standard 45s.


> Secondly, 45s are usually injection-molded styrene instead of vinyl
> pressings,

They were vinyl pressings for many years, only the later ones were
injection moulded.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

RE: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

<1lUpN.121938$taff.101305@fx41.iad>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=2301&group=rec.audio.pro#2301

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx41.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
References: <83982a86-3043-437d-8ea8-25f7c09cd5d7@p13g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: rwris...@dslextreme.com (Roy W. Rising)
Subject: RE: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <1lUpN.121938$taff.101305@fx41.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse(at)newshosting.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:43:25 UTC
Organization: Newshosting.com - Highest quality at a great price! www.newshosting.com
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:43:25 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 2767
 by: Roy W. Rising - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 17:43 UTC

On Wed Dec 20 00:19:24 2023 mummycullen@gmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (MummyChunk) wrote:
>
> > muzician21 wrote:
> > Hadn't played a 45 in a long time. It seemed to me they always
> sounded
> > "overloaded", distorted, never as "clean" as an
> LP.
> >
> > Just got a 45 off Ebay - brand new condition. As I do with any
> vinyl
> > before it gets played I hit it with vacuum irrigation using the
> Disc
> > Doctor solution and brushes, distilled water rinse.
> >
> > Yup, sounds distorted with a buzzy, grainy edge. My turntable is
> an
> > SL1200 MK2 with an Audio Technica catridge in good condition.
> While
> > not a $100k exotic setup it should be up to the task of playing
> the
> > disc. Clean condition Direct To Disc albums sound great on it.
> >
> > What's the story with 45's?
>
> Does anybody have a good enough memory to understand if when 45s were
> new they still had the difference in sound that you might be hearing
> today?
>
>
> This is a response to the post seen at:
> http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=74238#663588662
>
>
Sound quality aside, legend has it that when Columbia introduced the "LP" it used 33 1/3 RPM because radio transcriptions used that speed. RCA wanted to counter with a new "single" and required that it be "any speed except 33 1/3 RPM". The "45" was born. Is it just a coincidence that 45+33=78?

"If you notice the sound, it's wrong" Roy W. Rising

Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

<uo9bof$d7e$1@panix2.panix.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=2302&group=rec.audio.pro#2302

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!panix!.POSTED.panix2.panix.com!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail
From: klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?
Date: 17 Jan 2024 20:02:23 -0000
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <uo9bof$d7e$1@panix2.panix.com>
References: <83982a86-3043-437d-8ea8-25f7c09cd5d7@p13g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com> <uo75g4$hs$1@panix2.panix.com> <1qnh8oo.15h1whujl3olsN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>
Injection-Info: reader1.panix.com; posting-host="panix2.panix.com:166.84.1.2";
logging-data="16100"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@panix.com"
 by: Scott Dorsey - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:02 UTC

Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>They were vinyl pressings for many years, only the later ones were
>injection moulded.

Don't know about the UK, but in the US, Bestway started doing styrene in
1950 for children's 78s but as soon as RCA came out with the 45 they started
licensing the patents out. There is a 1954 Billboard article about the
process saying that even Columbia had adopted it by then.

I keep meaning to write this stuff up for one of the audio magazines. I
had no idea that the adoption in the UK was delayed. In the US, I never
saw any vinyl 45s until the late eighties when they were a big thing for
college radio bands.

You have any information on styrene in the UK? Any info would be appreciated.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

<1qnhv1m.bgx7qc1j6wr0sN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=2303&group=rec.audio.pro#2303

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: liz...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:27:31 +0000
Organization: Poppy Records
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <1qnhv1m.bgx7qc1j6wr0sN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>
References: <83982a86-3043-437d-8ea8-25f7c09cd5d7@p13g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <RdqdndE1b96Rrh_4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com> <uo75g4$hs$1@panix2.panix.com> <1qnh8oo.15h1whujl3olsN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <uo9bof$d7e$1@panix2.panix.com>
X-Trace: individual.net hQDWmhK37tjaL9oOPGUWoQzaKP8DjSK1knYEL/P16ReAy5vanE
X-Orig-Path: liz
Cancel-Lock: sha1:NgLlhFUHjeUyx3fhfcVQUME3UII= sha256:hPxmjDXirA8W7eKY3TlG0+leZDZuaWDa+7J+n9pmmdw=
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6
 by: Liz Tuddenham - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 20:27 UTC

Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >They were vinyl pressings for many years, only the later ones were
> >injection moulded.
>
> Don't know about the UK, but in the US, Bestway started doing styrene in
> 1950 for children's 78s but as soon as RCA came out with the 45 they started
> licensing the patents out. There is a 1954 Billboard article about the
> process saying that even Columbia had adopted it by then.
>
> I keep meaning to write this stuff up for one of the audio magazines. I
> had no idea that the adoption in the UK was delayed. In the US, I never
> saw any vinyl 45s until the late eighties when they were a big thing for
> college radio bands.
>
> You have any information on styrene in the UK? Any info would be appreciated.

I have a collection of 45s up to the 1980s and they didn't appear to be
styrene. I'll have a closer look tomorrow and see if I can work out
when the changeover occurred.

I can remember seeing the occasional transparent or coloured 45s much
earlier, but they were always aimed at children

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk


tech / rec.audio.pro / Re: Why do 45's always sound distorted?

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.81
clearnet tor