I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.

Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:24:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Bures wrote:
> I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.
>
> Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?

They used to do it at Torrey Pines, but the hang gliders got the real gliders kicked out save for one weekend a year.

Tom

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:24:54 AM UTC-4, Jeff Bures wrote:
> I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.
>
> Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?

Netherlands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVLQmdJAkzs

On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 4:36:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:24:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Bures wrote:
> > I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.
> >
> > Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?
> They used to do it at Torrey Pines, but the hang gliders got the real gliders kicked out save for one weekend a year.
>
> Tom
The HG didn't get them kicked out. It was more people on the beach and UCSD , the owners of the runway and their lawyers (self insured) got the removed.

Steve
Former hang glider pilot and member of AGCSC. Also former UCSD staff.

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:24:52 -0700 (PDT), Jeff Bures wrote:

> I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky
> beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan
> and Muruwai.
>
> Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?

I haven't flown there myself but, on the south coast of the UK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs666zqMw0s

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC-7, s.bral...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 4:36:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:24:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Bures wrote:
> > > I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.
> > >
> > > Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?
> > They used to do it at Torrey Pines, but the hang gliders got the real gliders kicked out save for one weekend a year.
> >
> > Tom
> The HG didn't get them kicked out. It was more people on the beach and UCSD , the owners of the runway and their lawyers (self insured) got the removed.
>
> Steve
> Former hang glider pilot and member of AGCSC. Also former UCSD staff.

My information is third hand, never having flown at Torrey Pines. Perhaps some glider pilots who have can provide a first-hand account. The facts are that hang gliders can operate at Torrey Pines anytime that conditions permit, but gliders are limited to a short period once a year. Certainly, however, the mixing of gliders and hang gliders at such a congested site has obvious safety concerns. I think that if UCSD had their druthers, they would prefer that the runway be converted to some other use. But the site is listed on the California and National Registers of Historic Places, which prevents this. The first person to fly a glider there was Charles Lindbergh.

Nowhere did I find in the research I did that the Black beachgoers had any say in the final compromise whatsoever.

Tom

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 5:33:22 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC-7, s.bral...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 4:36:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:24:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Bures wrote:
> > > > I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.
> > > >
> > > > Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?
> > > They used to do it at Torrey Pines, but the hang gliders got the real gliders kicked out save for one weekend a year.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > The HG didn't get them kicked out. It was more people on the beach and UCSD , the owners of the runway and their lawyers (self insured) got the removed.
> >
> > Steve
> > Former hang glider pilot and member of AGCSC. Also former UCSD staff.
> My information is third hand, never having flown at Torrey Pines. Perhaps some glider pilots who have can provide a first-hand account. The facts are that hang gliders can operate at Torrey Pines anytime that conditions permit, but gliders are limited to a short period once a year. Certainly, however, the mixing of gliders and hang gliders at such a congested site has obvious safety concerns. I think that if UCSD had their druthers, they would prefer that the runway be converted to some other use. But the site is listed on the California and National Registers of Historic Places, which prevents this. The first person to fly a glider there was Charles Lindbergh.
>
> Nowhere did I find in the research I did that the Black beachgoers had any say in the final compromise whatsoever.
>
> Tom

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 5:33:22 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC-7, s.bral...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 4:36:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:24:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Bures wrote:
> > > > I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.
> > > >
> > > > Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?
> > > They used to do it at Torrey Pines, but the hang gliders got the real gliders kicked out save for one weekend a year.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > The HG didn't get them kicked out. It was more people on the beach and UCSD , the owners of the runway and their lawyers (self insured) got the removed.
> >
> > Steve
> > Former hang glider pilot and member of AGCSC. Also former UCSD staff.
> My information is third hand, never having flown at Torrey Pines. Perhaps some glider pilots who have can provide a first-hand account. The facts are that hang gliders can operate at Torrey Pines anytime that conditions permit, but gliders are limited to a short period once a year. Certainly, however, the mixing of gliders and hang gliders at such a congested site has obvious safety concerns. I think that if UCSD had their druthers, they would prefer that the runway be converted to some other use. But the site is listed on the California and National Registers of Historic Places, which prevents this. The first person to fly a glider there was Charles Lindbergh.
>
> Nowhere did I find in the research I did that the Black beachgoers had any say in the final compromise whatsoever.
>
> Tom

I fly my Phoenix motorglider at Torrey Pines at least six to eight days each year. Usually, only when the winds are from the west at more than 20-25 knots. This makes for good soaring and minimal hang gliders and paragliders. I take off from Montgomery Field, about 12 miles inland, and motor to and then back to Ramona after soaring. I did my first solo flight in 1966 on winch launch at Torrey on my 14th birthday, and feel very comfortable mixing it up with a few paragliders and hang gliders. Many years ago, I had a midair collision with an RC glider at Torrey. No damage the the 1-26 I was flying but the RC glider was destroyed. After the collision, I went out to the cliff edge to talk to the RC pilot that apologized for turning right into me without seeing me.
The situation is very different than the old days now with lots of beachgoers, RC gliders, paragliders, ang-gliders and minimal landing space on top of the cliffs at the "airport".
Years ago, when a club glider was forced to land on the beach due to dying winds or poor pilot judgement, the winch cable would be "walked" down the cliff and the instructor of the day would fly the glider back up to the gliderport from the beach using the winch parked near the "point" on the TOP of the cliffs 375 feet above! That was THRILLING the first time I did that! When a towplane was available, we would aerotow off the beach. They JAIL us if we tried that these days!
Our club actually hasn't flown from the gliderport at Torrey for a few years as far as I know because of the extreme growth in the use of the area for multiple uses. A real loss.
Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrISUqm4As
Russ

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 8:59:58 PM UTC-7, Russ Owens wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 5:33:22 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 7:57:44 PM UTC-7, s.bral...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 4:36:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 8:24:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Bures wrote:
> > > > > I love the videos of Stefan Langer and Pure Glide soaring the rocky beaches in New Zealand. I think one of the locations is between Raglan and Muruwai.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where else in the world can you safely soar the beaches?
> > > > They used to do it at Torrey Pines, but the hang gliders got the real gliders kicked out save for one weekend a year.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > The HG didn't get them kicked out. It was more people on the beach and UCSD , the owners of the runway and their lawyers (self insured) got the removed.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > > Former hang glider pilot and member of AGCSC. Also former UCSD staff.
> > My information is third hand, never having flown at Torrey Pines. Perhaps some glider pilots who have can provide a first-hand account. The facts are that hang gliders can operate at Torrey Pines anytime that conditions permit, but gliders are limited to a short period once a year. Certainly, however, the mixing of gliders and hang gliders at such a congested site has obvious safety concerns. I think that if UCSD had their druthers, they would prefer that the runway be converted to some other use. But the site is listed on the California and National Registers of Historic Places, which prevents this. The first person to fly a glider there was Charles Lindbergh.
> >
> > Nowhere did I find in the research I did that the Black beachgoers had any say in the final compromise whatsoever.
> >
> > Tom
> I fly my Phoenix motorglider at Torrey Pines at least six to eight days each year. Usually, only when the winds are from the west at more than 20-25 knots. This makes for good soaring and minimal hang gliders and paragliders. I take off from Montgomery Field, about 12 miles inland, and motor to and then back to Ramona after soaring. I did my first solo flight in 1966 on winch launch at Torrey on my 14th birthday, and feel very comfortable mixing it up with a few paragliders and hang gliders. Many years ago, I had a midair collision with an RC glider at Torrey. No damage the the 1-26 I was flying but the RC glider was destroyed. After the collision, I went out to the cliff edge to talk to the RC pilot that apologized for turning right into me without seeing me.
> The situation is very different than the old days now with lots of beachgoers, RC gliders, paragliders, ang-gliders and minimal landing space on top of the cliffs at the "airport".
> Years ago, when a club glider was forced to land on the beach due to dying winds or poor pilot judgement, the winch cable would be "walked" down the cliff and the instructor of the day would fly the glider back up to the gliderport from the beach using the winch parked near the "point" on the TOP of the cliffs 375 feet above! That was THRILLING the first time I did that! When a towplane was available, we would aerotow off the beach. They JAIL us if we tried that these days!
> Our club actually hasn't flown from the gliderport at Torrey for a few years as far as I know because of the extreme growth in the use of the area for multiple uses. A real loss.
> Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrISUqm4As
> Russ

Nice video, Russ! Yet another benefit of motorgliders.

Tom

As a current glider, hang glider, paraglider pilot and general aviation nut, I'd suggest checking into HG/PG lessons especially if you're near a ridge soaring site. It's lots of fun and there might be times when one form of soaring is available when others are not.

Ken

> > Tom
> I fly my Phoenix motorglider at Torrey Pines at least six to eight days each year. Usually, only when the winds are from the west at more than 20-25 knots. This makes for good soaring and minimal hang gliders and paragliders. I take off from Montgomery Field, about 12 miles inland, and motor to and then back to Ramona after soaring. I did my first solo flight in 1966 on winch launch at Torrey on my 14th birthday, and feel very comfortable mixing it up with a few paragliders and hang gliders. Many years ago, I had a midair collision with an RC glider at Torrey. No damage the the 1-26 I was flying but the RC glider was destroyed. After the collision, I went out to the cliff edge to talk to the RC pilot that apologized for turning right into me without seeing me.
> The situation is very different than the old days now with lots of beachgoers, RC gliders, paragliders, ang-gliders and minimal landing space on top of the cliffs at the "airport".
> Years ago, when a club glider was forced to land on the beach due to dying winds or poor pilot judgement, the winch cable would be "walked" down the cliff and the instructor of the day would fly the glider back up to the gliderport from the beach using the winch parked near the "point" on the TOP of the cliffs 375 feet above! That was THRILLING the first time I did that! When a towplane was available, we would aerotow off the beach. They JAIL us if we tried that these days!
> Our club actually hasn't flown from the gliderport at Torrey for a few years as far as I know because of the extreme growth in the use of the area for multiple uses. A real loss.
> Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrISUqm4As
> Russ

..... or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3jG2bydm8

Uli
'AS'

On 10/30/2021 8:59 PM, Russ Owens wrote:
>
> I fly my Phoenix motorglider at Torrey Pines at least six to eight days each year. Usually, only when the winds are from the west at more than 20-25 knots. This makes for good soaring and minimal hang gliders and paragliders. I take off from Montgomery Field, about 12 miles inland, and motor to and then back to Ramona after soaring. I did my first solo flight in 1966 on winch launch at Torrey on my 14th birthday, and feel very comfortable mixing it up with a few paragliders and hang gliders. Many years ago, I had a midair collision with an RC glider at Torrey. No damage the the 1-26 I was flying but the RC glider was destroyed. After the collision, I went out to the cliff edge to talk to the RC pilot that apologized for turning right into me without seeing me.
> The situation is very different than the old days now with lots of beachgoers, RC gliders, paragliders, ang-gliders and minimal landing space on top of the cliffs at the "airport".
> Years ago, when a club glider was forced to land on the beach due to dying winds or poor pilot judgement, the winch cable would be "walked" down the cliff and the instructor of the day would fly the glider back up to the gliderport from the beach using the winch parked near the "point" on the TOP of the cliffs 375 feet above! That was THRILLING the first time I did that! When a towplane was available, we would aerotow off the beach. They JAIL us if we tried that these days!
> Our club actually hasn't flown from the gliderport at Torrey for a few years as far as I know because of the extreme growth in the use of the area for multiple uses. A real loss.
> Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrISUqm4As
> Russ
>
What is the best sand on which to land the Phoenix, should you need to: wet, damp, dry?
Would it be possible to take off from the beach? Is adequate for the Phoenix, and how high
above runway do you need to be to be when you leave the cliff to land on the runway?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 1:40:37 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 10/30/2021 8:59 PM, Russ Owens wrote:
> >
> > I fly my Phoenix motorglider at Torrey Pines at least six to eight days each year. Usually, only when the winds are from the west at more than 20-25 knots. This makes for good soaring and minimal hang gliders and paragliders. I take off from Montgomery Field, about 12 miles inland, and motor to and then back to Ramona after soaring. I did my first solo flight in 1966 on winch launch at Torrey on my 14th birthday, and feel very comfortable mixing it up with a few paragliders and hang gliders. Many years ago, I had a midair collision with an RC glider at Torrey. No damage the the 1-26 I was flying but the RC glider was destroyed. After the collision, I went out to the cliff edge to talk to the RC pilot that apologized for turning right into me without seeing me.
> > The situation is very different than the old days now with lots of beachgoers, RC gliders, paragliders, ang-gliders and minimal landing space on top of the cliffs at the "airport".
> > Years ago, when a club glider was forced to land on the beach due to dying winds or poor pilot judgement, the winch cable would be "walked" down the cliff and the instructor of the day would fly the glider back up to the gliderport from the beach using the winch parked near the "point" on the TOP of the cliffs 375 feet above! That was THRILLING the first time I did that! When a towplane was available, we would aerotow off the beach. They JAIL us if we tried that these days!
> > Our club actually hasn't flown from the gliderport at Torrey for a few years as far as I know because of the extreme growth in the use of the area for multiple uses. A real loss.
> > Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrISUqm4As
> > Russ
> >
> What is the best sand on which to land the Phoenix, should you need to: wet, damp, dry?
> Would it be possible to take off from the beach? Is adequate for the Phoenix, and how high
> above runway do you need to be to be when you leave the cliff to land on the runway?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Eric -
I'm glad you asked. The best sand to land on the beach is wet sand after the high tide. All the other sand will be either so soft it would cause a Phoenix to likely flip onto its back, or so wet (pretty much any standing water) it would cause a Phoenix to flip over onto it's back. I think. A conventional glider would do much better with it's lower CG. Landing on Blacks Beach is NOT an acceptable risk. Also, most days, the beach has a lot of people on it (fewer people if it's cold and windy), and there is a very real risk of having to land in the Pacific Ocean if the beach is too crowded. Any beach landing would be cause for fines and other trouble. If one were to land on the beach and later start an engine, and if the beach were clear, it MIGHT be better to takeoff and see what happens.
If you are 100 feet above the cliff edge, you are high enough to land downwind on the very short already (and shortened more by a fence) runway...from the ridge, a turn to final, and land...all within 15 seconds. Even if someone were to land on the "runway", you would not be able to take-off without violating the University and the City of San Diego regulations.
This is a very demanding activity, and not recommended. All these problems can be avoided IF the engine starts.

https://nordicgliding-com.translate.goog/det-var-fantastisk-at-flyve-her/?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=nui,elem

On 10/31/2021 9:04 PM, Russ Owens wrote:
> On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 1:40:37 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 10/30/2021 8:59 PM, Russ Owens wrote:
>>>
>>> I fly my Phoenix motorglider at Torrey Pines at least six to eight days each year. Usually, only when the winds are from the west at more than 20-25 knots. This makes for good soaring and minimal hang gliders and paragliders. I take off from Montgomery Field, about 12 miles inland, and motor to and then back to Ramona after soaring. I did my first solo flight in 1966 on winch launch at Torrey on my 14th birthday, and feel very comfortable mixing it up with a few paragliders and hang gliders. Many years ago, I had a midair collision with an RC glider at Torrey. No damage the the 1-26 I was flying but the RC glider was destroyed. After the collision, I went out to the cliff edge to talk to the RC pilot that apologized for turning right into me without seeing me.
>>> The situation is very different than the old days now with lots of beachgoers, RC gliders, paragliders, ang-gliders and minimal landing space on top of the cliffs at the "airport".
>>> Years ago, when a club glider was forced to land on the beach due to dying winds or poor pilot judgement, the winch cable would be "walked" down the cliff and the instructor of the day would fly the glider back up to the gliderport from the beach using the winch parked near the "point" on the TOP of the cliffs 375 feet above! That was THRILLING the first time I did that! When a towplane was available, we would aerotow off the beach. They JAIL us if we tried that these days!
>>> Our club actually hasn't flown from the gliderport at Torrey for a few years as far as I know because of the extreme growth in the use of the area for multiple uses. A real loss.
>>> Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrISUqm4As
>>> Russ
>>>
>> What is the best sand on which to land the Phoenix, should you need to: wet, damp, dry?
>> Would it be possible to take off from the beach? Is adequate for the Phoenix, and how high
>> above runway do you need to be to be when you leave the cliff to land on the runway?
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> Eric -
> I'm glad you asked. The best sand to land on the beach is wet sand after the high tide. All the other sand will be either so soft it would cause a Phoenix to likely flip onto its back, or so wet (pretty much any standing water) it would cause a Phoenix to flip over onto it's back. I think. A conventional glider would do much better with it's lower CG. Landing on Blacks Beach is NOT an acceptable risk. Also, most days, the beach has a lot of people on it (fewer people if it's cold and windy), and there is a very real risk of having to land in the Pacific Ocean if the beach is too crowded. Any beach landing would be cause for fines and other trouble. If one were to land on the beach and later start an engine, and if the beach were clear, it MIGHT be better to takeoff and see what happens.
> If you are 100 feet above the cliff edge, you are high enough to land downwind on the very short already (and shortened more by a fence) runway...from the ridge, a turn to final, and land...all within 15 seconds. Even if someone were to land on the "runway", you would not be able to take-off without violating the University and the City of San Diego regulations.
> This is a very demanding activity, and not recommended. All these problems can be avoided IF the engine starts.
>
I'd probably leave the engine idling while soaring there ;^) That would be most of the
soaring experience, and less of the risk.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

It's a Rotax so it should start instantly unless...  You have to open
the fuel valve, set the choke, unfeather the prop, turn the key, adjust
the throttle...  All of these things can be done rather quickly but you
might then need a warm up before the engine will deliver power. 😮

Dan
5J

On 10/31/21 10:04 PM, Russ Owens wrote:
> If you are 100 feet above the cliff edge, you are high enough to land downwind on the very short already (and shortened more by a fence) runway...from the ridge, a turn to final, and land...all within 15