I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
I almost forgot, Old Bob , The Purist

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
> I almost forgot, Old Bob , The Purist
I don't personally know anyone that has had a satisfactory experience with a "high-performance" motorglider other than the Ventus cxm. And I don't think much of Schemmp-Hirth, though my experience may be biased from the first xouple of generations.

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:59:33 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job.. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
> > I almost forgot, Old Bob , The Purist
> I don't personally know anyone that has had a satisfactory experience with a "high-performance" motorglider other than the Ventus cxm. And I don't think much of Schemmp-Hirth, though my experience may be biased from the first xouple of generations.
Sorry that should read CM, not sure if the x was something I falsely remember or made up🤔

On 10/24/2021 3:59 PM, Tony wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
>> I almost forgot, Old Bob , The Purist
> I don't personally know anyone that has had a satisfactory experience with a "high-performance" motorglider other than the Ventus cxm. And I don't think much of Schemmp-Hirth, though my experience may be biased from the first xouple of generations.
>
Say what? Many hundreds of pilots have had great experiences with Schleicher motorgliders,
and also various models of DG and SH. Even the old PIK 20E can be satisfactory pretty cheaply.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On 10/24/2021 3:37 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
>
Do mean "new to you", or "new from the factory"? Give us an idea of the highest price
you'd consider, and if you'd consider a partner (get a good glider for half the money).

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 7:54:00 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 3:37 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
> >
> Do mean "new to you", or "new from the factory"? Give us an idea of the highest price
> you'd consider, and if you'd consider a partner (get a good glider for half the money).
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
I have read many accounts of dg and pik owners removing their engines every year &c. If that's satisfactory count me out!

On 10/24/2021 5:14 PM, Tony wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 7:54:00 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 3:37 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
>>>
>> Do mean "new to you", or "new from the factory"? Give us an idea of the highest price
>> you'd consider, and if you'd consider a partner (get a good glider for half the money).
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA

> I have read many accounts of dg and pik owners removing their engines every year &c. If that's satisfactory count me out!

Why does removing the engine seem like a big problem? Even on my ASH26E, I remove the
engine at least every other year to examine the underside for loose parts, replace the
spark plugs, check for oil leaks, etc. It's about an hour to remove and an hour to replace.

And, on the DG and PIK, the engine is almost totally exposed on the mast, so examining it
doesn't even require removal.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:37:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?

You don't have what it takes to fly a motorglider - retire and play shuffleboard.

Tom

Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....
On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:37:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?

On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 06:12:40 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....

Yep - I think Old Bob the (self-appointed) Purist is just joshing.

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:30:26 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:37:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
> You don't have what it takes to fly a motorglider - retire and play shuffleboard.
>
> Tom
Tom, that is the nicest thing that you have ever posted, thanks for the advice. Old Bob, The Purist

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 7:48:41 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:30:26 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:37:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
> > You don't have what it takes to fly a motorglider - retire and play shuffleboard.
> >
> > Tom
> Tom, that is the nicest thing that you have ever posted, thanks for the advice. Old Bob, The Purist
This has to be a joke of some kind? What's the punch line Old Bob

On 10/25/21 1:32 AM, John Galloway wrote:
> On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 06:12:40 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
>> Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....
>
>
> Yep - I think Old Bob the (self-appointed) Purist is just joshing.
>

I wish people would quit taking the bait. It's getting old.

On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 14:48:43 UTC+1, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 7:48:41 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:30:26 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 3:37:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > I am getting old , looking at the end of the tunnel, but thinking about buying a new glider, maybe a self launch like old R has could do the job. Your suggestions would be appreciated, what should I get?
> > > You don't have what it takes to fly a motorglider - retire and play shuffleboard.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Tom, that is the nicest thing that you have ever posted, thanks for the advice. Old Bob, The Purist
> This has to be a joke of some kind? What's the punch line Old Bob

I am going to treat this seriously, although it seams more like banter.
As I am approaching 70 and want to fly as many years as I can its something that I have thought about.
At the moment I fly a Ventus 2ct when life permits but I have thought a share in an Arcus M would give me good soaring potential and the option of a second pilot for when I get tired out.
You need to save some energy to drive home after the day and I 'aint going to get any stronger.

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:37:38 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> On 10/25/21 1:32 AM, John Galloway wrote:
> > On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 06:12:40 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> >> Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....
> >
> >
> > Yep - I think Old Bob the (self-appointed) Purist is just joshing.
> >
> I wish people would quit taking the bait. It's getting old.
Dave is right, don't feed the monster, eh, the Pompous Purist. He is just trying to push buttons.

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:45:33 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:37:38 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> > On 10/25/21 1:32 AM, John Galloway wrote:
> > > On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 06:12:40 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> > >> Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....
> > >
> > >
> > > Yep - I think Old Bob the (self-appointed) Purist is just joshing.
> > >
> > I wish people would quit taking the bait. It's getting old.
> Dave is right, don't feed the monster, eh, the Pompous Purist. He is just trying to push buttons.
Herbert, you must get control of your limbic responses. I only post the things that I am serious about, I will take a minute or two to enlighten your imagination. Jon has made a very serious reply and I too am approaching an age to where I would like to continue flying gliders. I live on my own airstrip, can easily go outside and crank up that carbon producing motor glider and take off without the need of my tow plane and look for a tow pilot. That aspect of self reliance is something that we should all consider at some point of our flying enjoyment. The sustainer thing is not my bag of tea, the self launch is worthy of consideration. Old Bob , The Purist

If only that were true of the Stemme, I'd have my engine out this week
while the main runway at Moriarty is closed for resurfacing.

BTW, OBTP, take a look at a used Stemme, it's big and roomy and has
great performance, but you won't likely win any contests with it.  You
can, however, travel to other soaring sites with it without the hassles
of dragging a trailer.  Having a side by side glider was instrumental in
my wife's new found love of flying.  On the down side, I now get only
half (or less) of the available stick time.

As an example of the travel capabilities, we packed for 10 days and
traveled from Moriarty, NM to Minden, NV, a distance of about 700 nm
with a rest/lunch stop in Cedar City, UT.  We climbed directly to
17,500' MSL and realized 140 kts ground speed.  Winds were only 4 kts at
altitude that day and we achieved 35 miles per gallon of auto gas. 
Bottom line, we had only one day of travel time each way instead of two
each way if towing a glider.  That allowed two more days of flying on
site, plus two flying days travel.

Being a purist ain't all that great if you want to fly more...

Dan
5J

On 10/24/21 7:36 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> I remove the engine at least every other year to examine the underside
> for loose parts, replace the spark plugs, check for oil leaks, etc.
> It's about an hour to remove and an hour to replace.

Well then, to further pump up the Stemme...

With its easily foldable wings, after the learning curve, I can set up
and fold the Stemme in around 10 minutes.  At its folded width (37 ft)
it'll fit in a standard T-hangar.  With its 3-wheel conventional landing
gear (I know you can fly a tail dragger), it's right at home at any
airport and, though I prefer pavement, I would happily put it down on
maintained grass.  I don't think I'd use a gravel strip as the prop tips
are rather close to the ground in the takeoff attitude.

Dan
5J

On 10/25/21 10:14 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:45:33 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:
>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:37:38 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
>>> On 10/25/21 1:32 AM, John Galloway wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 06:12:40 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
>>>>> Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....
>>>>
>>>> Yep - I think Old Bob the (self-appointed) Purist is just joshing.
>>>>
>>> I wish people would quit taking the bait. It's getting old.
>> Dave is right, don't feed the monster, eh, the Pompous Purist. He is just trying to push buttons.
> Herbert, you must get control of your limbic responses. I only post the things that I am serious about, I will take a minute or two to enlighten your imagination. Jon has made a very serious reply and I too am approaching an age to where I would like to continue flying gliders. I live on my own airstrip, can easily go outside and crank up that carbon producing motor glider and take off without the need of my tow plane and look for a tow pilot. That aspect of self reliance is something that we should all consider at some point of our flying enjoyment. The sustainer thing is not my bag of tea, the self launch is worthy of consideration. Old Bob , The Purist

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 1:15:50 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Well then, to further pump up the Stemme...
>
> With its easily foldable wings, after the learning curve, I can set up
> and fold the Stemme in around 10 minutes. At its folded width (37 ft)
> it'll fit in a standard T-hangar. With its 3-wheel conventional landing
> gear (I know you can fly a tail dragger), it's right at home at any
> airport and, though I prefer pavement, I would happily put it down on
> maintained grass. I don't think I'd use a gravel strip as the prop tips
> are rather close to the ground in the takeoff attitude.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 10/25/21 10:14 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:45:33 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> >> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:37:38 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> >>> On 10/25/21 1:32 AM, John Galloway wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 06:12:40 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> >>>>> Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3.. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....
> >>>>
> >>>> Yep - I think Old Bob the (self-appointed) Purist is just joshing.
> >>>>
> >>> I wish people would quit taking the bait. It's getting old.
> >> Dave is right, don't feed the monster, eh, the Pompous Purist. He is just trying to push buttons.
> > Herbert, you must get control of your limbic responses. I only post the things that I am serious about, I will take a minute or two to enlighten your imagination. Jon has made a very serious reply and I too am approaching an age to where I would like to continue flying gliders. I live on my own airstrip, can easily go outside and crank up that carbon producing motor glider and take off without the need of my tow plane and look for a tow pilot.. That aspect of self reliance is something that we should all consider at some point of our flying enjoyment. The sustainer thing is not my bag of tea, the self launch is worthy of consideration. Old Bob , The Purist
Dan, can't quiet comes to grip with the Stemme, we have his and the lady of the house gliders here at the ranch, I can only see big problems ahead if she wanted to take possession of the self launch. I never get to fly my glider as it is, I am always towing. See what happens when the wife likes to fly gliders, it really complicates things. Actually I enjoy towing and giving others the opportunity to fly, that is why I will make over 1220 tows this year and put many new glider pilots into the air, hey Herbert, what did you do for soaring this year?

With the everyone likes their toy disclaimer on, if you want self-launch, it's hard to beat the ASH31Mi. If you are shy a few euros, get a good 26. Same engine, just a little bit less performance. Upside, very good reliable engine system. I can take off from Truckee, 6000', 90 degrees, full water ballast, and unstick halfway down the runway. I can also climb at altitudes if I need to come home and land at Truckee. Small downsides: Wings are heavy.. A one-man rigger or very strong friend is a must. Or a hangar. (I presume the germans figured anyone who can afford one can afford a hangar.) The tail is heavy. That's so it doesn't nose over when you punch the engine. Use a tail dolly removal tool every time. Pushing it around is heavy. A two-seater will be even heavier of course. I disdained self launch, but I am now a convert. Have not had a tow in years. And when I hear my friends screaming for more knots from the towplane, or grumbling that they are 5th in line, one towplane, and the 1000k day is slipping away, I just chuckle.
John Cochrane BB

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 3:30:21 PM UTC-7, cochra...@gmail.com wrote:
> With the everyone likes their toy disclaimer on, if you want self-launch, it's hard to beat the ASH31Mi. If you are shy a few euros, get a good 26. Same engine, just a little bit less performance. Upside, very good reliable engine system. I can take off from Truckee, 6000', 90 degrees, full water ballast, and unstick halfway down the runway. I can also climb at altitudes if I need to come home and land at Truckee. Small downsides: Wings are heavy. A one-man rigger or very strong friend is a must. Or a hangar. (I presume the germans figured anyone who can afford one can afford a hangar.) The tail is heavy. That's so it doesn't nose over when you punch the engine. Use a tail dolly removal tool every time. Pushing it around is heavy. A two-seater will be even heavier of course. I disdained self launch, but I am now a convert. Have not had a tow in years. And when I hear my friends screaming for more knots from the towplane, or grumbling that they are 5th in line, one towplane, and the 1000k day is slipping away, I just chuckle.
> John Cochrane BB

A nice 26E is a relative bargain for anybody wanting a great motorglider :-)

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 7:54:32 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 3:30:21 PM UTC-7, cochra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > With the everyone likes their toy disclaimer on, if you want self-launch, it's hard to beat the ASH31Mi. If you are shy a few euros, get a good 26.. Same engine, just a little bit less performance. Upside, very good reliable engine system. I can take off from Truckee, 6000', 90 degrees, full water ballast, and unstick halfway down the runway. I can also climb at altitudes if I need to come home and land at Truckee. Small downsides: Wings are heavy. A one-man rigger or very strong friend is a must. Or a hangar. (I presume the germans figured anyone who can afford one can afford a hangar.) The tail is heavy. That's so it doesn't nose over when you punch the engine. Use a tail dolly removal tool every time. Pushing it around is heavy. A two-seater will be even heavier of course. I disdained self launch, but I am now a convert. Have not had a tow in years. And when I hear my friends screaming for more knots from the towplane, or grumbling that they are 5th in line, one towplane, and the 1000k day is slipping away, I just chuckle.
> > John Cochrane BB
> A nice 26E is a relative bargain for anybody wanting a great motorglider :-)

I agree - a 26E is a relative bargain in the world of motorgliders. A 31Mi will cost you roughly twice as much. I was surprised, however, how long it took me to sell my 26e, which was a direct result of the lies told by GP Gliders. A Ventus 2cmx is another decent glider, but used ones are few are far between. The 31Mi is a heavy glider that you don't want to push very far. Fortunately, you can taxi the glider

JJ's concerns about driving 3 hours round trip to go flying were a major reason why I bought my first motorglider. You just don't fly as much when you know you are in for a long day. And you can travel to any suitable airport to fly.

Tom

Dan and other Stemme owners,
Could you please share your experience with maintenance? I can't tell if the rumors are true?
I hear scary things like 200-hour prop overhaul in the neighborhood of $10,000??!
Carbon Driveshaft inspections and other unique issues that bleed you dry after you spent your kid's college savings on the glider?
Please tell me this isn't so.

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 1:06:16 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> If only that were true of the Stemme, I'd have my engine out this week
> while the main runway at Moriarty is closed for resurfacing.
>
> BTW, OBTP, take a look at a used Stemme, it's big and roomy and has
> great performance, but you won't likely win any contests with it. You
> can, however, travel to other soaring sites with it without the hassles
> of dragging a trailer. Having a side by side glider was instrumental in
> my wife's new found love of flying. On the down side, I now get only
> half (or less) of the available stick time.
>
> As an example of the travel capabilities, we packed for 10 days and
> traveled from Moriarty, NM to Minden, NV, a distance of about 700 nm
> with a rest/lunch stop in Cedar City, UT. We climbed directly to
> 17,500' MSL and realized 140 kts ground speed. Winds were only 4 kts at
> altitude that day and we achieved 35 miles per gallon of auto gas.
> Bottom line, we had only one day of travel time each way instead of two
> each way if towing a glider. That allowed two more days of flying on
> site, plus two flying days travel.
>
> Being a purist ain't all that great if you want to fly more...
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 10/24/21 7:36 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > I remove the engine at least every other year to examine the underside
> > for loose parts, replace the spark plugs, check for oil leaks, etc.
> > It's about an hour to remove and an hour to replace.

To my mind, the 3 basic selflaunchers are DG-80x B/C, Ventus 2 c(x)m and ASH26E.
The ASH31Mi, Nimbus 4M, Quintus M will all start to be a pain in the ass once you get older - more pieces to assemble, heavier parts etc.

The DG and Ventus have the advantage of using the Solo 2625 - plenty of units around, relatively easy repair & maintainance, and when everything fails, a new engine won't cost you a kndney. But you have to live with vibrational issues.
The 26 has a smooth running engine w/o vibrations, but if the former owner was neglecting the pickling of the engine, or you have a major breakdown - that engine is north of 30 k$.

The Stemme is quite another league, both in operations and maintenance.

Bert
DG-800 B "BW"

Le Monday, October 25, 2021 à 6:14:49 PM UTC+2, youngbl...@gmail.com a écrit :
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:45:33 AM UTC-4, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:37:38 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 10/25/21 1:32 AM, John Galloway wrote:
> > > > On Monday, 25 October 2021 at 06:12:40 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> > > >> Since you post on OLC a lot, I'd suggest a jet version like the JS3. If you jig your logger, the engine starts won't show up so you can drive around your lake 3 times and post it....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yep - I think Old Bob the (self-appointed) Purist is just joshing.
> > > >
> > > I wish people would quit taking the bait. It's getting old.
> > Dave is right, don't feed the monster, eh, the Pompous Purist. He is just trying to push buttons.
> Herbert, you must get control of your limbic responses. I only post the things that I am serious about, I will take a minute or two to enlighten your imagination. Jon has made a very serious reply and I too am approaching an age to where I would like to continue flying gliders. I live on my own airstrip, can easily go outside and crank up that carbon producing motor glider and take off without the need of my tow plane and look for a tow pilot. That aspect of self reliance is something that we should all consider at some point of our flying enjoyment. The sustainer thing is not my bag of tea, the self launch is worthy of consideration. Old Bob , The Purist