FYI, NTSB factual and docket released recently:

https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=98207

Darren

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 9:07:25 AM UTC-8, Darren Braun wrote:
> FYI, NTSB factual and docket released recently:
>
> https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=98207
>
> Darren

The report states that excessive pitch control caused the ship to perform several loops while pulling an estimated 12 G’s…………do they really think an older pilot, like Sergio could pull 12 G’s?
At age 35, I would get tunnel vision at 6 G’s and blacked out completely at 8 G’s and that’s with a G suit!

I still believe they took a large bird strike on one side of the horizontal stab which resulted in an uncontrolled pith maneuver and both pilots were completely blacked out shortly after the bird strike?
JJ

This is a very impressive detailed analysis. There is no probable cause yet, we were told it may take few more month. I doubt the probable cause will suggest that the pilot intentionally or mistakenly provided excessive pitch control. I also think that a large bird strike is a plausible cause. However I learned something new according to eye witnesses they could not see the pilots since the cockpit was dark which suggests smoke in the cockpit and could explain everything. Although I would have expected them to eject the canopy if there was smoke in the cockpit but the evidence confirms they did not, nor attempted to bailout.

Ramy

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 10:43:39 AM UTC-8, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 9:07:25 AM UTC-8, Darren Braun wrote:
> > FYI, NTSB factual and docket released recently:
> >
> > https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=98207
> >
> > Darren
> The report states that excessive pitch control caused the ship to perform several loops while pulling an estimated 12 G’s…………do they really think an older pilot, like Sergio could pull 12 G’s?
> At age 35, I would get tunnel vision at 6 G’s and blacked out completely at 8 G’s and that’s with a G suit!
>
>
> I still believe they took a large bird strike on one side of the horizontal stab which resulted in an uncontrolled pith maneuver and both pilots were completely blacked out shortly after the bird strike?
> JJ

>learned something new according to eye witnesses they could not see the pilots since the cockpit was dark which suggests smoke in the cockpit and >could explain everything. Although I would have expected them to eject the canopy if there was smoke in the cockpit but the evidence confirms they did

I read that too and also batteries were changed out the week prior..but does not really address the tight looping. Couple of things I wonder about.
Why was one of the pilots observed with lap belt only and the other 4 point? Maybe they started to undo belts?
And was the back canopy pin issue a contributing factor. Need Duo owners input on that one.
Clearly by the time they were doing loops they were unconscious. The ballasitc study is also interesting.
Darren

On Saturday, 5 March 2022 at 01:36:36 UTC, Darren Braun wrote:
> >learned something new according to eye witnesses they could not see the pilots since the cockpit was dark which suggests smoke in the cockpit and >could explain everything. Although I would have expected them to eject the canopy if there was smoke in the cockpit but the evidence confirms they did
> I read that too and also batteries were changed out the week prior..but does not really address the tight looping. Couple of things I wonder about.
> Why was one of the pilots observed with lap belt only and the other 4 point? Maybe they started to undo belts?
> And was the back canopy pin issue a contributing factor. Need Duo owners input on that one.
> Clearly by the time they were doing loops they were unconscious. The ballasitc study is also interesting.
> Darren

2 things.
I once saw a horizontal stabiliser cut away in a crash ,hit about 4 inches down the fin and the glider bunted ie opposite to a loop.

I used to own a Duo xlt the engine battery was mounted behind the front seat behind what we used to call the picnic hamper.
If the engine battery came loose the battery would fall on the rear joystick and push it hard back.
To move that battery would not be easy, you would have to take your straps off to get near it, and the more gee the harder it would be.

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 8:07:24 AM UTC-5, disc...@googlemail.com wrote:

Wouldn't a glider with no horizontal stab actually dive rather than pitch up to a loop ?
Dan

On the Duo, the canopy is held down with three pins that stick up from the cockpit rail. A three piece rod slides on top of the canopy rail and slides through those pins. As Mike describes a bit, there is a small loop of fiberglass that goes over the rod. That loop is not structural, it only acts as a guide to keep the rod in the right location. I don't recall if mine has bushings or not, but on my Duo, the upward force of the canopy is all on the canopy rail, not the bushing or flimsy fiberglass keeper. If I'm understanding Mike's comment correctly, I'd agree that it was not a flight risk, but you did need to make sure that the pins are engaged. In my glider, I instruct the person in the back seat to verify the rod goes through the pin and doesn't ride over the top of it. This ensures the canopy is latched and not just sitting on the pins. If that rear pin is missed, it is possible for the handle to work forward and the canopy to try to open. Had it happen once and became much more vigilant about watching the pins all engage and briefing that procedure with copilots.

Interesting information about the battery being located in front of the stick and below the picnic bag on the Duo XLT. That would definitely pose a risk if it was released. Although I didn't think that the T had a battery for the engine? I thought it was an air start only? I don't recall my friends Duo T having a battery below the bag. XC was an older Duo T, not an XLT so it may not have had a battery there.

In my Duo both batteries are behind the calves of the person in the back seat. They are snug against the bulkhead at the front of the rear seat.

If a battery was there and became lodged in front of the stick, that would certainly present a problem. You absolutely would need to release the shoulder straps in order to lean forward enough to have a chance of reaching anything. The report didn't indicate which pilot only had two buckles attached. That would be valuable information. Along with confirmation of a battery in front of the rear stick.

I believe my Duo(which was still at Truckee) was removed from the trailer and reviewed as part of the investigation, but it isn't a Turbo. So it definitely doesn't have the battery underneath the picnic bag.

Morgan

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 5:36:36 PM UTC-8, Darren Braun wrote:
> >learned something new according to eye witnesses they could not see the pilots since the cockpit was dark which suggests smoke in the cockpit and >could explain everything. Although I would have expected them to eject the canopy if there was smoke in the cockpit but the evidence confirms they did
> I read that too and also batteries were changed out the week prior..but does not really address the tight looping. Couple of things I wonder about.
> Why was one of the pilots observed with lap belt only and the other 4 point? Maybe they started to undo belts?
> And was the back canopy pin issue a contributing factor. Need Duo owners input on that one.
> Clearly by the time they were doing loops they were unconscious. The ballasitc study is also interesting.
> Darren

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 7:15:47 AM UTC-8, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> On the Duo, the canopy is held down with three pins that stick up from the cockpit rail. A three piece rod slides on top of the canopy rail and slides through those pins. As Mike describes a bit, there is a small loop of fiberglass that goes over the rod. That loop is not structural, it only acts as a guide to keep the rod in the right location. I don't recall if mine has bushings or not, but on my Duo, the upward force of the canopy is all on the canopy rail, not the bushing or flimsy fiberglass keeper. If I'm understanding Mike's comment correctly, I'd agree that it was not a flight risk, but you did need to make sure that the pins are engaged. In my glider, I instruct the person in the back seat to verify the rod goes through the pin and doesn't ride over the top of it. This ensures the canopy is latched and not just sitting on the pins. If that rear pin is missed, it is possible for the handle to work forward and the canopy to try to open. Had it happen once and became much more vigilant about watching the pins all engage and briefing that procedure with copilots.
>
> Interesting information about the battery being located in front of the stick and below the picnic bag on the Duo XLT. That would definitely pose a risk if it was released. Although I didn't think that the T had a battery for the engine? I thought it was an air start only? I don't recall my friends Duo T having a battery below the bag. XC was an older Duo T, not an XLT so it may not have had a battery there.
>
> In my Duo both batteries are behind the calves of the person in the back seat. They are snug against the bulkhead at the front of the rear seat.
>
> If a battery was there and became lodged in front of the stick, that would certainly present a problem. You absolutely would need to release the shoulder straps in order to lean forward enough to have a chance of reaching anything. The report didn't indicate which pilot only had two buckles attached. That would be valuable information. Along with confirmation of a battery in front of the rear stick.
>
> I believe my Duo(which was still at Truckee) was removed from the trailer and reviewed as part of the investigation, but it isn't a Turbo. So it definitely doesn't have the battery underneath the picnic bag.
>
> Morgan
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 5:36:36 PM UTC-8, Darren Braun wrote:
> > >learned something new according to eye witnesses they could not see the pilots since the cockpit was dark which suggests smoke in the cockpit and >could explain everything. Although I would have expected them to eject the canopy if there was smoke in the cockpit but the evidence confirms they did
> > I read that too and also batteries were changed out the week prior..but does not really address the tight looping. Couple of things I wonder about..
> > Why was one of the pilots observed with lap belt only and the other 4 point? Maybe they started to undo belts?
> > And was the back canopy pin issue a contributing factor. Need Duo owners input on that one.
> > Clearly by the time they were doing loops they were unconscious. The ballasitc study is also interesting.
> > Darren

Several things……..
1. Did the ship have a tinted canopy? If so, that would explain the fact the witnesses couldn’t see inside the cockpit, but still doesn’t explain how or why the ship performed two 12 G loops? Even if one of the pilots gave high G up input, the stick pressure would be relaxed when the pilot passed out under high G loads?
2. Did the ship have a battery in front of the rear stick and was it properly secured? For sure, that would explain everything the witnesses observed!

3. Two whitenesses said the stab was ripped off when hit by a wing that just broke off, but after the ship did two consecutive loops, so whatever was causing the pitch problem was present before the stab departed the aircraft..
At the time of the accident, I had a SH stab in the shop and I performed a simple experiment to see what might happen when a large force was applied to one side of the stab. The experiment showed the forward mount yielded to a simulated bird strike near the tip and the bending of the rod and mount would result in a negative angle of attack on the horizontal stabilizer (leading edge slightly down causing the ship to pitch up)!

4. I have seen several SH rear mount attachment fittings that bent one pin up, after aground-loop type accident. I don’t know if this happened in this accident or not, but if the rear mount bent under bird strike loads, if one pin remained normal, but the other pin was bent up, that would move that side of the elevator up!

Food for thought,
JJ

Final report:
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf

I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> Final report:
> https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:23:06 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> > Final report:
> > https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf

I don’t know what to say………..I expected to see “ undetermined cause”. The report writer went out on a limb to say that some hang-glider pilots don’t know what a loop is, when at least one clearly knew when referring the behavior he saw as like a model sailplane doing consecutive loops and not a spiral diving model glider?
But, to be fair, I recall Carl Herald telling me about letting a passenger fly his Nimbus 3D, only to look up and see one wing down and the nose down too! Carl told me it took every piloting skill he possessed to save the ship!
In my mind, we will never know exactly happened that day,
JJ

Personally I avoided to read the final report so far to keep my blood pressure in check.
After all the efforts we did helping NTSB investigator, providing data and pointing out to multiple probably cause, such as bird strike, smoke, even health issue, and after the very thorough analysis and investigation they did, they choose the easy path of blaming it on the dead pilot loosing control of the glider on a mellow days from other reason? Sergio who spent big part of his life in the cockpit under extreme situations? Really? Pilot error my ass!

Ramy

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:54:44 PM UTC-7, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:23:06 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> > > Final report:
> > > https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf
> I don’t know what to say………..I expected to see “ undetermined cause”. The report writer went out on a limb to say that some hang-glider pilots don’t know what a loop is, when at least one clearly knew when referring the behavior he saw as like a model sailplane doing consecutive loops and not a spiral diving model glider?
> But, to be fair, I recall Carl Herald telling me about letting a passenger fly his Nimbus 3D, only to look up and see one wing down and the nose down too! Carl told me it took every piloting skill he possessed to save the ship!
> In my mind, we will never know exactly happened that day,
> JJ

Except for the fact that spins are prohibited in the Duo, I'd gladly offer to let the NTSB investigator try to initiate a spin in my Duo and see how confident they are in their assessment. It's an incredibly difficult glider to spin or even stall significantly for that matter. Even with full tail ballast, with Sergio and Jim in there I think the CG would have been in the middle of the range and I'd dare say nearly impossible to spin.

The unbuckled shoulder straps are the thing that I think is probably pointing to something going on in the cockpit. An unsecured object that got in front of the stick in the back seat maybe. You can really only release the shoulder belts by securing the lap belt while rotating the release. In a bailout situation I think all three would be released. But it seems plausible to release the shoulder belts to reach down for something. I can't adjust the rear pedals with the shoulder harness attached, for example.

We aren't going to know what happened, we just get to speculate and plan for how we might deal with a similar emergency.

Annoyed, but not surprised.

Morgan

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Personally I avoided to read the final report so far to keep my blood pressure in check.
> After all the efforts we did helping NTSB investigator, providing data and pointing out to multiple probably cause, such as bird strike, smoke, even health issue, and after the very thorough analysis and investigation they did, they choose the easy path of blaming it on the dead pilot loosing control of the glider on a mellow days from other reason? Sergio who spent big part of his life in the cockpit under extreme situations? Really? Pilot error my ass!
>
> Ramy
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:54:44 PM UTC-7, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:23:06 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
> > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> > > > Final report:
> > > > https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf
> > I don’t know what to say………..I expected to see “ undetermined cause”. The report writer went out on a limb to say that some hang-glider pilots don’t know what a loop is, when at least one clearly knew when referring the behavior he saw as like a model sailplane doing consecutive loops and not a spiral diving model glider?
> > But, to be fair, I recall Carl Herald telling me about letting a passenger fly his Nimbus 3D, only to look up and see one wing down and the nose down too! Carl told me it took every piloting skill he possessed to save the ship!
> > In my mind, we will never know exactly happened that day,
> > JJ

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 11:02:54 PM UTC-4, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Except for the fact that spins are prohibited in the Duo, I'd gladly offer to let the NTSB investigator try to initiate a spin in my Duo and see how confident they are in their assessment. It's an incredibly difficult glider to spin or even stall significantly for that matter. Even with full tail ballast, with Sergio and Jim in there I think the CG would have been in the middle of the range and I'd dare say nearly impossible to spin.
>
> The unbuckled shoulder straps are the thing that I think is probably pointing to something going on in the cockpit. An unsecured object that got in front of the stick in the back seat maybe. You can really only release the shoulder belts by securing the lap belt while rotating the release. In a bailout situation I think all three would be released. But it seems plausible to release the shoulder belts to reach down for something. I can't adjust the rear pedals with the shoulder harness attached, for example.
>
> We aren't going to know what happened, we just get to speculate and plan for how we might deal with a similar emergency.
>
> Annoyed, but not surprised.
>
> Morgan
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Personally I avoided to read the final report so far to keep my blood pressure in check.
> > After all the efforts we did helping NTSB investigator, providing data and pointing out to multiple probably cause, such as bird strike, smoke, even health issue, and after the very thorough analysis and investigation they did, they choose the easy path of blaming it on the dead pilot loosing control of the glider on a mellow days from other reason? Sergio who spent big part of his life in the cockpit under extreme situations? Really? Pilot error my ass!
> >
> > Ramy
> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:54:44 PM UTC-7, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:23:06 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
> > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> > > > > Final report:
> > > > > https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf
> > > I don’t know what to say………..I expected to see “ undetermined cause”. The report writer went out on a limb to say that some hang-glider pilots don’t know what a loop is, when at least one clearly knew when referring the behavior he saw as like a model sailplane doing consecutive loops and not a spiral diving model glider?
> > > But, to be fair, I recall Carl Herald telling me about letting a passenger fly his Nimbus 3D, only to look up and see one wing down and the nose down too! Carl told me it took every piloting skill he possessed to save the ship!
> > > In my mind, we will never know exactly happened that day,
> > > JJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What not a lot of people realize about the rotary buckle seat belt hardware
is that there is a little tab on top of the buckle behind where the shoulder
harness hardware is inserted. If you push/squeeze that tab forward towards
the shoulder harness fittings, the shoulder harness will release without having
to turn the main buckle itself. It is a one finger operation if you just want to get
free of the shoulder straps while staying strapped in by the seat belt.

RO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 9:08:32 AM UTC-4, mrop...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 11:02:54 PM UTC-4, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Except for the fact that spins are prohibited in the Duo, I'd gladly offer to let the NTSB investigator try to initiate a spin in my Duo and see how confident they are in their assessment. It's an incredibly difficult glider to spin or even stall significantly for that matter. Even with full tail ballast, with Sergio and Jim in there I think the CG would have been in the middle of the range and I'd dare say nearly impossible to spin.
> >
> > The unbuckled shoulder straps are the thing that I think is probably pointing to something going on in the cockpit. An unsecured object that got in front of the stick in the back seat maybe. You can really only release the shoulder belts by securing the lap belt while rotating the release. In a bailout situation I think all three would be released. But it seems plausible to release the shoulder belts to reach down for something. I can't adjust the rear pedals with the shoulder harness attached, for example.
> >
> > We aren't going to know what happened, we just get to speculate and plan for how we might deal with a similar emergency.
> >
> > Annoyed, but not surprised.
> >
> > Morgan
> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > Personally I avoided to read the final report so far to keep my blood pressure in check.
> > > After all the efforts we did helping NTSB investigator, providing data and pointing out to multiple probably cause, such as bird strike, smoke, even health issue, and after the very thorough analysis and investigation they did, they choose the easy path of blaming it on the dead pilot loosing control of the glider on a mellow days from other reason? Sergio who spent big part of his life in the cockpit under extreme situations? Really? Pilot error my ass!
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:54:44 PM UTC-7, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:23:06 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> > > > > > Final report:
> > > > > > https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf
> > > > I don’t know what to say………..I expected to see “ undetermined cause”. The report writer went out on a limb to say that some hang-glider pilots don’t know what a loop is, when at least one clearly knew when referring the behavior he saw as like a model sailplane doing consecutive loops and not a spiral diving model glider?
> > > > But, to be fair, I recall Carl Herald telling me about letting a passenger fly his Nimbus 3D, only to look up and see one wing down and the nose down too! Carl told me it took every piloting skill he possessed to save the ship!
> > > > In my mind, we will never know exactly happened that day,
> > > > JJ
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> What not a lot of people realize about the rotary buckle seat belt hardware
> is that there is a little tab on top of the buckle behind where the shoulder
> harness hardware is inserted. If you push/squeeze that tab forward towards
> the shoulder harness fittings, the shoulder harness will release without having
> to turn the main buckle itself. It is a one finger operation if you just want to get
> free of the shoulder straps while staying strapped in by the seat belt.
>
> RO
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's a feature only found on Gadringer harnesses, if I remember correctly.. My current Schroth harness does not have that and I miss it from my old glider.

Uli
'AS'

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 7:16:55 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 9:08:32 AM UTC-4, mrop...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 11:02:54 PM UTC-4, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Except for the fact that spins are prohibited in the Duo, I'd gladly offer to let the NTSB investigator try to initiate a spin in my Duo and see how confident they are in their assessment. It's an incredibly difficult glider to spin or even stall significantly for that matter. Even with full tail ballast, with Sergio and Jim in there I think the CG would have been in the middle of the range and I'd dare say nearly impossible to spin.
> > >
> > > The unbuckled shoulder straps are the thing that I think is probably pointing to something going on in the cockpit. An unsecured object that got in front of the stick in the back seat maybe. You can really only release the shoulder belts by securing the lap belt while rotating the release. In a bailout situation I think all three would be released. But it seems plausible to release the shoulder belts to reach down for something. I can't adjust the rear pedals with the shoulder harness attached, for example.
> > >
> > > We aren't going to know what happened, we just get to speculate and plan for how we might deal with a similar emergency.
> > >
> > > Annoyed, but not surprised.
> > >
> > > Morgan
> > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > > Personally I avoided to read the final report so far to keep my blood pressure in check.
> > > > After all the efforts we did helping NTSB investigator, providing data and pointing out to multiple probably cause, such as bird strike, smoke, even health issue, and after the very thorough analysis and investigation they did, they choose the easy path of blaming it on the dead pilot loosing control of the glider on a mellow days from other reason? Sergio who spent big part of his life in the cockpit under extreme situations? Really? Pilot error my ass!
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:54:44 PM UTC-7, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:23:06 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> > > > > > > Final report:
> > > > > > > https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf
> > > > > I don’t know what to say………..I expected to see “ undetermined cause”. The report writer went out on a limb to say that some hang-glider pilots don’t know what a loop is, when at least one clearly knew when referring the behavior he saw as like a model sailplane doing consecutive loops and not a spiral diving model glider?
> > > > > But, to be fair, I recall Carl Herald telling me about letting a passenger fly his Nimbus 3D, only to look up and see one wing down and the nose down too! Carl told me it took every piloting skill he possessed to save the ship!
> > > > > In my mind, we will never know exactly happened that day,
> > > > > JJ
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > What not a lot of people realize about the rotary buckle seat belt hardware
> > is that there is a little tab on top of the buckle behind where the shoulder
> > harness hardware is inserted. If you push/squeeze that tab forward towards
> > the shoulder harness fittings, the shoulder harness will release without having
> > to turn the main buckle itself. It is a one finger operation if you just want to get
> > free of the shoulder straps while staying strapped in by the seat belt.
> >
> > RO
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> That's a feature only found on Gadringer harnesses, if I remember correctly. My current Schroth harness does not have that and I miss it from my old glider.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'
It is very unfortunate that this accident happened and how most of us that knew the pilots and were there that day, the NSTB got to conclusions that are very likely not correct. This will do nothing to help us prevent the real reason for the accident. What would have helped was a high time resolution flight trace that did not happen because the pilots forgot to turn on their tracker. As the sun was setting on that day and all of use were concerned about where they were, we all realized not having there where abouts was a huge problem. A problem that we actually can avoid if we are doing the right thing and carrying a logging device connected to OGN. I am sure if any one of us has a bad day, you would hope it to be not repeated by your friends and fellow pilots. Flying responsibly these days is also having the right hardware. Collision avoidance, tracking, etc..... So next time you fly, thing about the larger responsibility you have to the community and not be so self centered. Those that still say today I don't even need a radio, transponder, etc because it is my right, are the ones I am referring to.

I have many fond memories of Jim and Sergio, but still blame them for not completing their check list and turned on the tracker.

Buzz

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 9:31:57 AM UTC-7, BG wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 7:16:55 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 9:08:32 AM UTC-4, mrop...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 11:02:54 PM UTC-4, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Except for the fact that spins are prohibited in the Duo, I'd gladly offer to let the NTSB investigator try to initiate a spin in my Duo and see how confident they are in their assessment. It's an incredibly difficult glider to spin or even stall significantly for that matter. Even with full tail ballast, with Sergio and Jim in there I think the CG would have been in the middle of the range and I'd dare say nearly impossible to spin.
> > > >
> > > > The unbuckled shoulder straps are the thing that I think is probably pointing to something going on in the cockpit. An unsecured object that got in front of the stick in the back seat maybe. You can really only release the shoulder belts by securing the lap belt while rotating the release. In a bailout situation I think all three would be released. But it seems plausible to release the shoulder belts to reach down for something. I can't adjust the rear pedals with the shoulder harness attached, for example.
> > > >
> > > > We aren't going to know what happened, we just get to speculate and plan for how we might deal with a similar emergency.
> > > >
> > > > Annoyed, but not surprised.
> > > >
> > > > Morgan
> > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:20:39 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > > > Personally I avoided to read the final report so far to keep my blood pressure in check.
> > > > > After all the efforts we did helping NTSB investigator, providing data and pointing out to multiple probably cause, such as bird strike, smoke, even health issue, and after the very thorough analysis and investigation they did, they choose the easy path of blaming it on the dead pilot loosing control of the glider on a mellow days from other reason? Sergio who spent big part of his life in the cockpit under extreme situations? Really? Pilot error my ass!
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramy
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:54:44 PM UTC-7, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:23:06 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > I'll be the first to say it: not a very satisfactory explanation. Not impossible, but quite unlikely in my opinion.
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 12:56:21 PM UTC-7, Darren Braun wrote:
> > > > > > > > Final report:
> > > > > > > > https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/98207/pdf
> > > > > > I don’t know what to say………..I expected to see “ undetermined cause”. The report writer went out on a limb to say that some hang-glider pilots don’t know what a loop is, when at least one clearly knew when referring the behavior he saw as like a model sailplane doing consecutive loops and not a spiral diving model glider?
> > > > > > But, to be fair, I recall Carl Herald telling me about letting a passenger fly his Nimbus 3D, only to look up and see one wing down and the nose down too! Carl told me it took every piloting skill he possessed to save the ship!
> > > > > > In my mind, we will never know exactly happened that day,
> > > > > > JJ
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > What not a lot of people realize about the rotary buckle seat belt hardware
> > > is that there is a little tab on top of the buckle behind where the shoulder
> > > harness hardware is inserted. If you push/squeeze that tab forward towards
> > > the shoulder harness fittings, the shoulder harness will release without having
> > > to turn the main buckle itself. It is a one finger operation if you just want to get
> > > free of the shoulder straps while staying strapped in by the seat belt.
> > >
> > > RO
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > That's a feature only found on Gadringer harnesses, if I remember correctly. My current Schroth harness does not have that and I miss it from my old glider.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
> It is very unfortunate that this accident happened and how most of us that knew the pilots and were there that day, the NSTB got to conclusions that are very likely not correct. This will do nothing to help us prevent the real reason for the accident. What would have helped was a high time resolution flight trace that did not happen because the pilots forgot to turn on their tracker. As the sun was setting on that day and all of use were concerned about where they were, we all realized not having there where abouts was a huge problem. A problem that we actually can avoid if we are doing the right thing and carrying a logging device connected to OGN. I am sure if any one of us has a bad day, you would hope it to be not repeated by your friends and fellow pilots. Flying responsibly these days is also having the right hardware. Collision avoidance, tracking, etc..... So next time you fly, thing about the larger responsibility you have to the community and not be so self centered. Those that still say today I don't even need a radio, transponder, etc because it is my right, are the ones I am referring to.
>
> I have many fond memories of Jim and Sergio, but still blame them for not completing their check list and turned on the tracker.
>
> Buzz
Did anybody noticed how DuoT cabin air exits?
Did anybody noticed Duo, and Arcus has 2 piece elevator pushrod?
Can connection fail?
Can connection bolt catch debrie and lock elevator?
Ryszard

The docket airworthiness report indicates that fire damaged wires and instruments were found, but there's no inventory or photos.

Was there any effort to see if data could be retrieved from the PowerFLARM?

Even if damaged, the Flarm people may have a way to read it. Keep in mind that the usual four second recording interval is limited information.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:23:04 -0700 (PDT), jfitch <jfitch@flash.net>
wrote:

>not a very satisfactory explanation.

These crumbs below might suggest a medical issue (i.e., heart attack),
especially if Pilot had a decreased O2 level

Final - . Whether a medical condition of either occupant contributed
to the circumstances of the accident could not be determined

Medical - Pilot - The heart was fragmented and only two coronary
arteries were available for examination; both the left anterior
descending and circumflex arteries were 95-99% occluded.
<file:///C:/Users/NUC/AppData/Local/Temp/WPR18FA247_Medical%20Factual%20Report-Rel.pdf>

Altitude - was likely flying around 14,500 ft mean sea level (msl)

=========================
"The circumflex artery branches off the left coronary artery and
encircles the heart muscle. This artery supplies blood to the outer
side and back of the heart."
===========================

While again not impossible, it seems very unlikely. There were two very qualified pilots on board, Jim was in excellent health and could easily have flown the glider. An incapacitated pilot in a Duo is unlikely to jam the elevator back all the way in a manner that could not be overcome by the second pilot.

If we knew what happened to Dave Nagler's glider it might shed light on this one - but that is again highly speculative.
On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-7, JAB wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:23:04 -0700 (PDT), jfitch
> wrote:
> >not a very satisfactory explanation.
> These crumbs below might suggest a medical issue (i.e., heart attack),
> especially if Pilot had a decreased O2 level
>
>
>
> Final - . Whether a medical condition of either occupant contributed
> to the circumstances of the accident could not be determined
>
> Medical - Pilot - The heart was fragmented and only two coronary
> arteries were available for examination; both the left anterior
> descending and circumflex arteries were 95-99% occluded.
> <file:///C:/Users/NUC/AppData/Local/Temp/WPR18FA247_Medical%20Factual%20Report-Rel.pdf>
>
> Altitude - was likely flying around 14,500 ft mean sea level (msl)
>
> =========================
> "The circumflex artery branches off the left coronary artery and
> encircles the heart muscle. This artery supplies blood to the outer
> side and back of the heart."
> ==========================

> If we knew what happened to Dave Nagler's glider it might shed light on this one - but that is again highly speculative.

The way this reads in light of NTSB final remarks on N22XC.. a possibility?

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/97551/pdf

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 7:06:17 PM UTC-4, Darren Braun wrote:
> > If we knew what happened to Dave Nagler's glider it might shed light on this one - but that is again highly speculative.
> The way this reads in light of NTSB final remarks on N22XC.. a possibility?
>
> https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/97551/pdf
Never speculate! having lost my best friend in a tragic crash that was recorded on video it seems like speculation never solved the tragic event. Old Bob, The Purist

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:03:04 -0700 (PDT), jfitch <jfitch@flash.net>
wrote:

>highly speculative.

NTSB mentioned a medical aspect...which is not SOP in fatal accidents.

Either a mechanical/electrical type issue, or a human issue.

Yes we collected igc files from all glider flying that day and sent to flarm, even before the glider was recovered. They were able to reconstruct the flight up to just before the initial trouble when they were at 14K over Mt Rose. We shared the findings with NCSA and they used the data, together with primary radar data, to reconstruct the flight. Still the question remained, what started the initial sequence of events. We will likely never know.

Buzz also made an excellent point about the importance of trackers, flarm, ADSB and OGN for SAR and accident analysis.

Ramy

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:05:08 PM UTC-7, georg...@gmail.com wrote:
> The docket airworthiness report indicates that fire damaged wires and instruments were found, but there's no inventory or photos.
>
> Was there any effort to see if data could be retrieved from the PowerFLARM?
>
> Even if damaged, the Flarm people may have a way to read it. Keep in mind that the usual four second recording interval is limited information.

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 7:54:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Yes we collected igc files from all glider flying that day and sent to flarm, even before the glider was recovered. They were able to reconstruct the flight up to just before the initial trouble when they were at 14K over Mt Rose. We shared the findings with NCSA and they used the data, together with primary radar data, to reconstruct the flight. Still the question remained, what started the initial sequence of events. We will likely never know..
>
> Buzz also made an excellent point about the importance of trackers, flarm, ADSB and OGN for SAR and accident analysis.
>
> Ramy
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:05:08 PM UTC-7, georg...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The docket airworthiness report indicates that fire damaged wires and instruments were found, but there's no inventory or photos.
> >
> > Was there any effort to see if data could be retrieved from the PowerFLARM?
> >
> > Even if damaged, the Flarm people may have a way to read it. Keep in mind that the usual four second recording interval is limited information.

50 years ago, USAF accident reports often contained a statement like, “ pilot allowed the aircraft to assume an attitude from which, recovery was not possible “. Maybe we’re looking at something like this here? Speculation, sure, but that’s all we have and all we will ever have!

The pilot flying experiences a heart attack, but he doesn’t realize it and keeps on trying to pilot the ship? Very shortly, the nose is down and so is one wing? Now there’s trees and rocks up there where blue sky is supposed to be. About this time, the other pilot becomes concerned and jumps on the controls…………….. were they in an attitude from which, recovery was not possible?
JJ