I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing.. Old Bob, The Purist

On 3/15/2022 4:29 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist

I don't miss the sectionals (a huge distraction in the cockpit and costly if you traveled
much), or the barograph (one smoking foil attempt and I immediately ordered a Replogle).
The GPS is great for finding turnpoints in a new area - reduced the "home field" advantage
in a contest, as some TP were really hard to spot, and it made honest pilots out of the
few that took advantage of airspace or cloud flying. The cameras, well, I was pretty,
pretty good with cameras, so I lost a little bit when they disappeared. Still have a
couple in my "museum".

What I miss most is the AST, where everyone had to go to the same TP. I think I learned a
lot more, more quickly, with that task than the "pilot selected" tasks.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 7:56:48 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/15/2022 4:29 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
> I don't miss the sectionals (a huge distraction in the cockpit and costly if you traveled
> much), or the barograph (one smoking foil attempt and I immediately ordered a Replogle).
> The GPS is great for finding turnpoints in a new area - reduced the "home field" advantage
> in a contest, as some TP were really hard to spot, and it made honest pilots out of the
> few that took advantage of airspace or cloud flying. The cameras, well, I was pretty,
> pretty good with cameras, so I lost a little bit when they disappeared. Still have a
> couple in my "museum".
>
> What I miss most is the AST, where everyone had to go to the same TP. I think I learned a
> lot more, more quickly, with that task than the "pilot selected" tasks.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Eric, the barograph certainly went away with Stripe Toothpaste, I am really dating myself with that drawback from the past. My little Nano serves me well and I do not carry a spare can of clear spray paint or hairspray to archive the trace, although most on this NGO, "New Glider Order", have no idea as to the reference. The sectional was not that bad, as we cut them in 20 mile sections and laminated then and attached to a binding ring so we could flip them as we went. I guess the old term that only two things count when it come to being close are horseshoes and hand grenades, i guess that can be changed by adding glider contest turnpoints.
There is something to be said about completing a task, things have really changed! I have my old scrapbook from the mid 70' until today, some of these pilots would get a good laugh or two at times past. Old Bob, The Purist

I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
I still carry and use a sectional.

Charlie

I like the New Mexico state-published chart. It has a little flying
saucer icon around the mid point between Corona and Roswell. I carry
it, don't actually use it!

Dan
5J

On 3/16/22 10:03, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
>> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
> I still carry and use a sectional.
>
> Charlie

On 3/16/2022 9:03 AM, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
>> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
> I still carry and use a sectional.
>
> Charlie
I carry electronic sectionals in my phone, but haven't used one in flight for 15+ years. I
use them in Skyvector when I'm planning an airplane flight, but not during the airplane
flight. What do the paper sectionals give you that you can't get from your flight computer?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 11:28:32 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
Fitch, you have been spoiled !!! Old Bob, The Purist

> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 1:52:39 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/16/2022 9:03 AM, Charles Longley wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> >> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
> >> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
> > I still carry and use a sectional.
> >
> > Charlie
> I carry electronic sectionals in my phone, but haven't used one in flight for 15+ years. I
> use them in Skyvector when I'm planning an airplane flight, but not during the airplane
> flight. What do the paper sectionals give you that you can't get from your flight computer?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
I bought a Pawnee in North Platte , Nebraska, Flew it o Vero Beach with only sectionals, took three days, dodged weather and for a Florida boy to be in Nebraska flying a Pawnee to Vero Beach in February, it was cold. The nice guy that I bought the Pawnee from took me to a farm supply store to buy me a jacket. That was not the worst part, I was ten days removed from a total knee replacement. Old Bob, The Purist

On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 10:52:34 -0700, Eric Greenwell
<owner@thegreenwells.netto> wrote:

>What do the paper sectionals give you

FAR 91.103. Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight,
become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

With preflight planning at home, one is not winging it with electronic
databases while in-flight.

On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 10:00:43 PM UTC-4, JAB wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 10:52:34 -0700, Eric Greenwell
> <ow...@thegreenwells.netto> wrote:
>
> >What do the paper sectionals give you
> FAR 91.103. Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight,
> become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.
>
> With preflight planning at home, one is not winging it with electronic
> databases while in-flight.
JAB, you must still believe in Santa! Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 7:42:01 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> JAB, you must still believe in Santa! Old Bob, The Purist

Does Santa use a sectional?

One thing a sectional doesn't do: it doesn't go blank when hit with a battery or other electrical failure. Rare, yes, but possible. This is a constant argument in the yachting community - why carry printed charts? Rare, but more common in a boat is the occurrence of a lightening strike, after which there is great likelihood of every electronic device on board being bricked.. In a plastic glider you may have more pressing things to worry about after such an event, but I think it could happen.
On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 10:52:39 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/16/2022 9:03 AM, Charles Longley wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> >> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
> >> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
> > I still carry and use a sectional.
> >
> > Charlie
> I carry electronic sectionals in my phone, but haven't used one in flight for 15+ years. I
> use them in Skyvector when I'm planning an airplane flight, but not during the airplane
> flight. What do the paper sectionals give you that you can't get from your flight computer?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Without reading the entire 38 pages of AC 120-76C, it appears that, to
remove paper charts requires having TWO EFBs in the cockpit.. The
thought of having my iPad croak as I'm descending on an instrument
approach (in the airplane) and not having a paper backup is not very
comforting. Fortunately, I'm in the habit of printing the applicable
approach(es) to carry along on cross country trips.

I don't do instrument approaches or navigation on my glider but my
ClearNav and Streak/XCSoar are pretty good at getting me home in spite
of 100 mile visibility here in NM.

Dan
5J

On 3/17/22 09:56, jfitch wrote:
> One thing a sectional doesn't do: it doesn't go blank when hit with a battery or other electrical failure. Rare, yes, but possible. This is a constant argument in the yachting community - why carry printed charts? Rare, but more common in a boat is the occurrence of a lightening strike, after which there is great likelihood of every electronic device on board being bricked. In a plastic glider you may have more pressing things to worry about after such an event, but I think it could happen.
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 10:52:39 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 3/16/2022 9:03 AM, Charles Longley wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
>>>> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
>>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
>>> I still carry and use a sectional.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>> I carry electronic sectionals in my phone, but haven't used one in flight for 15+ years. I
>> use them in Skyvector when I'm planning an airplane flight, but not during the airplane
>> flight. What do the paper sectionals give you that you can't get from your flight computer?
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT), jfitch <jfitch@flash.net>
wrote:

> why carry printed charts?

Spatial memory works very well for those with it.
============

Recent research on spatial memory and wayfinding in an article by
Ishikawa et al. in 2008[85] revealed that using a GPS moving map
device reduces an individual's navigation abilities when compared to
other participants who were using maps or had previous experience on
the route with a guide.

GPS moving map devices are frequently set up to allow the user to only
see a small detailed close-up of a particular segment of the map which
is constantly updated. In comparison, maps usually allow the user to
see the same view of the entire route from departure to arrival.

Other research has shown that individuals who use GPS travel more
slowly overall compared to map users who are faster. GPS users stop
more frequently and for a longer period of time whereas map users and
individuals using past experience as a guide travel on more direct
routes to reach their goal.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_memory#GPS_(Global_Positioning_System)>

On 3/16/2022 10:52 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/16/2022 9:03 AM, Charles Longley wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
>>> I don't miss any of those things. I don't miss dial telephones (that had to have a
>>> cord), muskets, or cars that ran on even after you turned them off. Or waiting in line
>>> for a tow plane. A lot of things from the past are best left there.
>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were
>>>> discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer
>>>> generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current
>>>> generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up
>>>> sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape
>>>> on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak
>>>> 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade
>>>> 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call
>>>> them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob,
>>>> The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those
>>>> motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
>> I still carry and use a sectional.
>>
>> Charlie
> I carry electronic sectionals in my phone, but haven't used one in flight for 15+ years. I
> use them in Skyvector when I'm planning an airplane flight, but not during the airplane
> flight. What do the paper sectionals give you that you can't get from your flight computer?
>
I haven't read the research referenced, but it sure doesn't match my experience in cars
(especially cars) or airplanes! Nor do I know of anyone that would let you take their GPS
away from them :^)

Are the people in the study walking? Also, sounds like they made a poor choice of GPS, if
they are limited to a close-up. And how does a printed map show you where the traffic jams
are so you can avoid them? I'll repeat my question: What do the paper sectionals give you
that you can't get from your flight computer?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:47:19 -0700, Eric Greenwell
<owner@thegreenwells.netto> wrote:

>What do the paper sectionals give you
>that you can't get from your flight computer?

"Don't put all of your eggs in one basket."

Just to add a bit of clarification - AC 120-76C was canceled and replaced with AC 120-76D, but what really matters is that the AC pertains to creation of an EFB Program (Electronic Flight Bag) and is not relevant to our discussion about using paper charts or any requirement to have them on board our gliders. In fact, it only pertains to 91K (Fractional Ownership), 121, 125, and 135 operators.

As for any requirement to have paper charts on board...

From AOPA - "If you have electronic charts on board, is it legally necessary to have a current paper chart for your route? The preflight action regulation, FAR 91.103, simply says the pilot must have “become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.” As far as the FAA is concerned, navigation information in electronic format is acceptable—until it fails and the information is no longer available. A backup source of flight data is a worthy consideration, be it a second electronic flight bag (EFB), a hard-copy chart, or even a contemporary flight log scribbled on a notepad."

In other articles, the AOPA clearly states that paper charts are not required, but are recommended. There is even an article that clarifies that an iPad can be used in lieu of paper charts for a checkride. Though, the examiner might question pilotage skills unless you can turn off the GPS.

Pilotage still matters. Five years ago, I took a buddy up in the TCSC 2-33 for his first glider flight and he was amazed that we were climbing in a thermal without an engine. The embers were stoked! He had started at Embry Riddle when he was young, but didn't complete any ratings. Fifty plus years later, he just passed his checkride for is Private Pilot Airplane. During his checkride, the examiner was very pleased with his ability to fix his location using pilotage skills instead of relying on the GeeWhiz1000 MFD. He's going to make a great glider pilot someday.

The more you know...

Paul A.

On 3/17/2022 6:16 PM, JAB wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:47:19 -0700, Eric Greenwell
> <owner@thegreenwells.netto> wrote:
>
>> What do the paper sectionals give you
>> that you can't get from your flight computer?
>
> "Don't put all of your eggs in one basket."
>
I have two baskets, neither of them sectionals: the flight computer on the panel and
iPhone in my pocket.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 12:14:13 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/17/2022 6:16 PM, JAB wrote:
> > On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:47:19 -0700, Eric Greenwell
> > <ow...@thegreenwells.netto> wrote:
> >
> >> What do the paper sectionals give you
> >> that you can't get from your flight computer?
> >
> > "Don't put all of your eggs in one basket."
> >
> I have two baskets, neither of them sectionals: the flight computer on the panel and
> iPhone in my pocket.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Yesterday I was over in soggy Clermont meeting a few old friends at the Seniors event and on the flight line there were gliders with sectionals in the cockpit, brought back old memories. Old Bob, The Purist

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist

Florida is a great test of pilotage: follow I-95 north or south, if you go to far east you run into the Atlantic Ocean, too far west and you run into the Gulf.

Tom

On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 7:51:51 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
> Florida is a great test of pilotage: follow I-95 north or south, if you go to far east you run into the Atlantic Ocean, too far west and you run into the Gulf.
>
> Tom

'Pilotage? Pilotage? Back when I was poor and would do anything for a moment in an airplane I was asked to bring a J5 cub from Wisconsin to Silver Springs Airport, Florida. I did so with NO radio, no nav aids whatsoever, just the requisite sectionals and a few pages from a road atlas and a Texaco road map. The wet compass was my only reference. I don't recall ever getting about 2K feet, took longer than I expected and I ran into lots of bad weather. I roughed it a few nights sleeping in a sleeping bag under the wing but people at the typical small airport/grass strips along the way where I refueled were wonderful. A couple of years ago I had to do a cross country for my rotorwing/helicopter rating, my cross country flying for my commercial airplane and other long flights didn't count, stupid idea on the part of the FAA. So this time I sat with an iPad and followed the line. I still had a sectional JUST in case.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.,

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 7:57:18 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 7:51:51 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Florida is a great test of pilotage: follow I-95 north or south, if you go to far east you run into the Atlantic Ocean, too far west and you run into the Gulf.
> >
> > Tom
> 'Pilotage? Pilotage? Back when I was poor and would do anything for a moment in an airplane I was asked to bring a J5 cub from Wisconsin to Silver Springs Airport, Florida. I did so with NO radio, no nav aids whatsoever, just the requisite sectionals and a few pages from a road atlas and a Texaco road map. The wet compass was my only reference. I don't recall ever getting about 2K feet, took longer than I expected and I ran into lots of bad weather. I roughed it a few nights sleeping in a sleeping bag under the wing but people at the typical small airport/grass strips along the way where I refueled were wonderful. A couple of years ago I had to do a cross country for my rotorwing/helicopter rating, my cross country flying for my commercial airplane and other long flights didn't count, stupid idea on the part of the FAA. So this time I sat with an iPad and followed the line. I still had a sectional JUST in case.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.,

Walt, enter into the Twilight Zone, just follow the blue line and you will never go wrong. I was flying back in the 70's and had no idea where I was, I called on the radio and asked someone where the large lake was with two tall towers, a voice came over the radio and asked me if I was lost, I quickly replied NO, I was just temporarily disoriented. Old Bob, The Purist

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 04:57:16 -0700 (PDT), "waltco...@aol.com"
<waltconnelly@aol.com> wrote:

>road atlas and a Texaco road map

Those are dated terms, which were used in the days of service station
attendants in most all US states:-).

Roadway Sidenote - Q: How many drivers could find their way home
without a map, cellphone, etc., if placed in an unknown (to them)
state? A: Those with an understanding of US roadmap details.

On 3/21/2022 5:05 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 7:57:18 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 7:51:51 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 4:29:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I was having a good discussion with an old friend just the other day, we were discussing the changed aspects of soaring and how much has been lost by the newer generation of glider pilots. The correct term should probably be the current generation of glider pilots. My oh my have things changed, no longer are we cutting up sectionals and smoking the barograph and filling out flight declaration sheets to tape on the vertical fin and take a picture to confirm our flight, no need for the kodak 120 film and cameras to use while passing the turn point, not this somewhat grenade 20km almost turn point. I would like to take one of these Starbuck fliers as I call them, turn off all gps assistance no grenade turn points and give then the Old Bob, The Purist, flight task of the day and just see how well they would do. Oh, Tape those motor doors shut ! E9, 41, Bennie, EA, and Pablo would be laughing. Old Bob, The Purist
>>> Florida is a great test of pilotage: follow I-95 north or south, if you go to far east you run into the Atlantic Ocean, too far west and you run into the Gulf.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> 'Pilotage? Pilotage? Back when I was poor and would do anything for a moment in an airplane I was asked to bring a J5 cub from Wisconsin to Silver Springs Airport, Florida. I did so with NO radio, no nav aids whatsoever, just the requisite sectionals and a few pages from a road atlas and a Texaco road map. The wet compass was my only reference. I don't recall ever getting about 2K feet, took longer than I expected and I ran into lots of bad weather. I roughed it a few nights sleeping in a sleeping bag under the wing but people at the typical small airport/grass strips along the way where I refueled were wonderful. A couple of years ago I had to do a cross country for my rotorwing/helicopter rating, my cross country flying for my commercial airplane and other long flights didn't count, stupid idea on the part of the FAA. So this time I sat with an iPad and followed the line. I still had a sectional JUST in case.
>>
>> Walt Connelly
>> Former Tow Pilot
>> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.,
>
> Walt, enter into the Twilight Zone, just follow the blue line and you will never go wrong. I was flying back in the 70's and had no idea where I was, I called on the radio and asked someone where the large lake was with two tall towers, a voice came over the radio and asked me if I was lost, I quickly replied NO, I was just temporarily disoriented. Old Bob, The Purist

And in areas with poor visibility (less than 15 miles) or flat without distinctive
features (eastern Kansas), it's difficult to compare the map and the ground if you are
unfamiliar with the area. It's bad enough in an airplane, but even harder in a glider,
where you are trying to stay in gliding reach of an airport and trying to stay up at the
same time. A GPS makes a lot easier and safer to do XC in those situations.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications