Kids going hiking for three days from point to point in the mountains.
They'll start around 500 feet in elevation and turn back at around 4000.

*What are the best apps you'd recommend they put on their smartphones?*
[They asked me to make a list for them & they're on both Android & iOS.]

Conditions are USA, Santa Cruz Mountains (rugged, no trails).
Cellular signal will be spotty at best (no matter the cellular carrier).
Topography will be rough (they'll be carrying only 100 feet of rope).

I'm starting the app list now, from memory, but I figured there might be
(a) purposefully helpful people out there who (b) have done this before.

What iOS & Android apps would you recommend a bunch of kids use for back
country hiking where they will not be following any established trails?
--
I'm lending them a compass and I'll create geospatial PDFs for them too.

In article <sqo1t0$1f53$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<spam@nospam.com> wrote:

> What iOS & Android apps would you recommend a bunch of kids use for back
> country hiking where they will not be following any established trails?

facebook, instagram, twitter and tiktok, so they can later post photos
and videos of their adventures.

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 19:22:06 -0500, nospam wrote:

> In article <sqo1t0$1f53$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
> <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> What iOS & Android apps would you recommend a bunch of kids use for back
>> country hiking where they will not be following any established trails?
>
> facebook, instagram, twitter and tiktok, so they can later post photos
> and videos of their adventures.

Common trolls like nospam are despicably purposefully unhelpful people.
Despite nospam's cruel unhelpful heart, we can work together for a solution.
Not only will we solve the problems, but we provide others with the results.

Most of these young kids are on iOS so the solution requires both platforms.
The workaround (so far) also involved Win10 (so I've added that newsgroup).

The first Win10-to-phone method I tried worked fine, but it has some flaws.
a. One flaw is that each quadrangle is a separate geospatial PDF.
b. Another flaw is waypoints & gpx tracks are not yet on these geoPDFs.
c. The last flaw is the PDFs are too large to email to the kids overall.

However, at least this first method works.

Therefore I post it because I'm purposefully helpful and I not only want a
better answer to the question than I can come up with myself, but I want
others to benefit from what I've learned by testing & detailing the process.

Please improve this process if you can as it's a universal need of hikers.

Let's say we wanted to hike to the top of Loma Prieta (by way of example)
starting from Mount Madonna (as an example of a typical backcountry hike).

What do we need for the group of kids who will be on both iOS & Android:
a. We need a free ad free iOS/Android app to show our position on the map.
b. We need reliably accurate 1:24K or better geospatial geoPDF maps.
c. We need to stitch geoPDFs together & we need to add tracks & waypoints.

So far this is the first iOS/Android app I'm testing out.
1. Install Avenza Maps <https://www.avenzamaps.com/mobile-maps>
Android: <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Avenza>
iOS App: <https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id388424049>
2. Obtain a geospatial PDF (with or without your desired waypoints & tracks)
(see one method below - others exist which I will subsequently test)
3. Load each of those GeoPDFs into Avenza (using the yellow "plus" button)
That's it.

When the kids hike, their position shows up on the geoPDF.
When they move out of one quadrangle, they can switch quadrangles.
It's not pretty. It doesn't have tracks. Nor waypoints. But it works.

They can even add a GPX track of where they've been onto the existing maps.
Here's the process I used to obtain the specific geoPDFs from the USGS.

1. Go to the USGS Store "Map Locator" to find the quadrangle to download.
<https://store.usgs.gov/map-locator>
And search for the quadrangle of interest.
For example, I searched for:
a. Mount Madonna
b. Loma Prieta

2. On each desire quadrangle perform this process to obtain the geoPDFs.
a. Doubleclick on the middle of the desired quadrangle
b. That will insert blue teardrop & show a blue "View Products" button
c. Press the "View Products" button to obtain the desired geoPDF

3. "View Products" will provide a long list of current & historical maps.

For Mount Madonna, I chose the following 2018 topographic map.
MOUNT MADONNA, CA TNM GEOSPATIAL PDF 7.5
<https://store.usgs.gov/product/496218>
<https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/StagedProducts/Maps/USTopo/PDF/CA/CA_Mount_Madonna_20180905_TM_geo.pdf>
Name: CA_Mount_Madonna_20180905_TM_geo.pdf
Size: 64360685 bytes (61 MiB)
SHA256: 8AD221503568F28F534E28767681CC7326E88C0B26058DB86870F8B9063D8289

For Loma Prieta I chose the following 2018 topographic map.
LOMA PRIETA, CA TNM GEOSPATIAL PDF 7.5X7
<https://store.usgs.gov/product/494076>
<https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/StagedProducts/Maps/USTopo/PDF/CA/CA_Loma_Prieta_20180905_TM_geo.pdf>
Name: CA_Loma_Prieta_20180905_TM_geo.pdf
Size: 67062849 bytes (63 MiB)
SHA256: 4C822EB88CC2799288A0BF9BE41D884FA0CB05861BC1AF9EA93DE432E8ED075A

At this point each kid can load the maps above into his iOS/Adroid phone
and Avenza will show his current position on those geospatial PDF maps.

This works, but the process can be improved by a lot.

We need a few things that others who know more than I do can help with.
a. Is there any other Android/iOS free app that works as well or better?
b. How can we most easily stitch the maps together into a single map?
c. How can we most easily add desired waypoints & desired gpx tracks?
--
The goal is a completely free but simple method for kids to download and use
backcountry topographic maps on their phone for accurate crosscountry hikes.

On 12/31/2021 7:30 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

<snip>

> We need a few things that others who know more than I do can help with.
> a. Is there any other Android/iOS free app that works as well or better?
> b. How can we most easily stitch the maps together into a single map?
> c. How can we most easily add desired waypoints & desired gpx tracks?

Your problem is the "free" part. You can do this with an app like All
Trails, importing gpx tracks and downloading offline maps. But to do it
for free requires a lot more work.

On 12/31/2021 10:57 PM, sms wrote:
> On 12/31/2021 7:30 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> We need a few things that others who know more than I do can help with.
>> a. Is there any other Android/iOS free app that works as well or better?
>> b. How can we most easily stitch the maps together into a single map?
>> c. How can we most easily add desired waypoints & desired gpx tracks?
>
> Your problem is the "free" part. You can do this with an app like All
> Trails, importing gpx tracks and downloading offline maps. But to do it
> for free requires a lot more work.

I use Gaia, it's free, and really works great. Used it from the Rockies
in Canada, , Glacier Park in Montana, desert southwest, and always when
I hike locally in the midwest. Most areas already have marked trails to
follow, or you can make your own, or simply record where you go and
create your new gpx file. It really does it all for free.
There are other options you can pay for, but I've found the free stuff
works great for me.

https://www.gaiagps.com/

On 2022-01-01 05:38:12 +0000, sticks said:

> On 12/31/2021 10:57 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 12/31/2021 7:30 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> We need a few things that others who know more than I do can help with.
>>> a. Is there any other Android/iOS free app that works as well or better?
>>> b. How can we most easily stitch the maps together into a single map?
>>> c. How can we most easily add desired waypoints & desired gpx tracks?
>>
>> Your problem is the "free" part. You can do this with an app like All
>> Trails, importing gpx tracks and downloading offline maps. But to do it
>> for free requires a lot more work.
>
> I use Gaia, it's free, and really works great. Used it from the
> Rockies in Canada, , Glacier Park in Montana, desert southwest, and
> always when I hike locally in the midwest. Most areas already have
> marked trails to follow, or you can make your own, or simply record
> where you go and create your new gpx file. It really does it all for
> free.
> There are other options you can pay for, but I've found the free stuff
> works great for me.
>
> https://www.gaiagps.com/

Why bother with a silly app? You're probably not going to have any
internet connection and the battery will run out.

Best just to get ye olde paper-based maps instead (or even better are
plasticised ones that won't tear easily when wet) - they'll work no
matter where you are.

On 12/31/2021 10:30 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 19:22:06 -0500, nospam wrote:
>
>> In article <sqo1t0$1f53$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
>> <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What iOS & Android apps would you recommend a bunch of kids use for back
>>> country hiking where they will not be following any established trails?

You want an established trail, because that makes it easier to
predict when you will arrive. This time of year, you lose the light
early.

If you've ever hit "heavy brush" (which won't show on a map), then
you will know what "impassible" means. Small animals will cut a trail
through that stuff, but for you to pass, you travel on your hands
and knees along their trail. And a couple hundred feet of that,
is experience enough thanks. You couldn't do a mile of that stuff.
And you can't stand up and run away screaming, because... you can't
stand up in it. It's impossible to stand up. It's too thick.

That's why you use a proper trail. You want the experience to be
enjoyable, not an "ode to exercise". When I went on that trip,
I wasn't expecting to go through heavy brush.

Going through heavy brush is fine if you're on your own property,
and the purpose of the trip is to "cut trail". You can take your
time, and do a couple hundred feet per day. The stuff I was going
through, I think I'd want a battery chainsaw, rather than a
machete.

What you could try is:

1) Follow an established trail.

2) Observe the landscape off to the side of the trail,
to see what the growth is like there. Even that though,
isn't much of a sampling as to what awaits out there.
It could be "orchard" density close to you, and
"heavy brush" further in, and it all looks the same from
the satellite view.

This is why, when North Shore Rescue pulls people out of BC,
they find them with the helicopter they've got, but they can't
rescue people by helicopter because there is no place to land.
A team then backpacks in and guides the people out. In one case,
a larger team had to go in, and carry someone with a broken
leg out to a point where the chopper could land. The travel companions
made a litter to carry the individual, so they were relatively
well prepared for a rescue. Some people that get rescued
are completely clueless. In some cases, they've even hauled
out an injured dog. Even a dog can hurt itself on the trail.
And that's an established trail. No machete necessary.

If you hired a guide, the guide would "sample" the terrain too,
so you don't have to. A guide could tell you that you can't
go down that steep section, that it's suicide.

Established trails are boring, but they exist for a reason.
A lot of people invested effort to make those possible.
They also have to be maintained. If you stop cutting them
back, the growth takes over again. That's why the railroad
company has a gadget for cutting back bracken along the tracks.
County roads are also trimmed back that way.

Paul

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 20:57:47 -0800, sms wrote:

> Your problem is the "free" part. You can do this with an app like All
> Trails, importing gpx tracks and downloading offline maps. But to do it
> for free requires a lot more work.

Thanks for that advice Steve, as you don't post to just troll like nospam.

I don't completely disagree with you but only because iOS is involved.
Not only should the results be free, but they should be ad free too.

I know of free ad free Android backcountry map apps using USGS topo maps.
But I have to also find iOS apps (these kids are more on iOS than Android).

I found a problem with Avenza that it only tracks inside of _three_ geoPDFs.
It warns you on the fourth that you need to pay for the pro version.

So I'm still looking for a good free ad free geoPDF map app for iOS/Android.
Since the kids are hiking tomorrow morning, I'm working all night on this.

I found _another_ set of excellent USGS topographic geoPDFs which are even
_newer_ than the 2018 versions found otherwise where these are dated 2021.

As always, here are the steps since I had to write them up for the kids
anyway (as the maps are 65MB each which is too large to email to them).

I post this hoping others will benefit, since I'm a good person overall
(I always want to give and get back in return, so everyone wins together).

1. Go to the USGS National Geospatial Topographic Maps Program web site
<https://www.usgs.gov/programs/national-geospatial-program/us-topo-maps-america>
2. Press on the green "Get Maps" button
<https://www.usgs.gov/the-national-map-data-delivery/topographic-maps>
3. Press the clear "Launch" button, which takes you to the downloader
<https://apps.nationalmap.gov/downloader/#/>
4. Check the box for "US Topo" and in the right type into the search bar
"mount madonna" or "loma prieta"
5. That should zoom to the desired adjacent set of USGS quadrangles
The steps are tricky as the web site really stinks for finding the links.
6. Zoom into the map area until only the desired quadrangles are visible.
(I'm not sure if this step is needed as I did it hoping I could right
click on the map to download it but you can't. But at least it lets
you know that you are on the correct quadrangle by name.)
7. In the "Datasets" tab on the left side, make sure the following are set.
[x]US Topo
[x]US Topo Current
[x]7.5x7.5 minute Data Extent
[x]GeoPDF File Formats
8. Then, in the "Datasets" tab on the left side, run the "Keword" search:
"mopunt madonna" or "loma prieta"
9. That search should result in the "Products" tab showing the desired map:
For "mount madonna" my "Keyword Search" found:
US Topo 7.5-minute map for Mount Madonna, CA
Published Date: 2021-11-19
Metadata Updated: 2021-11-23
Format: Geospatial PDF, Geospatial PDF
Extent: 7.5 x 7.5 minute
When you press on the blue link titled "Download Link (PDF)", you get:
<https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/StagedProducts/Maps/USTopo/PDF/CA/CA_Mount_Madonna_20211119_TM_geo.pdf>
Name: CA_Mount_Madonna_20211119_TM_geo.pdf
Size: 48491507 bytes (46 MiB)
SHA256: 1027FA6289C5F76484A087AEC69D53FB055DDC9996B2301A6F9FA6D92C994E45

For "loma prieta" my "Keyword Search" found:
US Topo 7.5-minute map for Loma Prieta, CA
Published Date: 2021-11-19
Metadata Updated: 2021-11-23
Format: Geospatial PDF, Geospatial PDF
Extent: 7.5 x 7.5 minute
When you press on the blue link titled "Download Link (PDF)", you get:
<https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/StagedProducts/Maps/USTopo/PDF/CA/CA_Loma_Prieta_20211119_TM_geo.pdf>
Name: CA_Loma_Prieta_20211119_TM_geo.pdf
Size: 50061089 bytes (47 MiB)
SHA256: 94F7E94F18D71885EEEB0E838FD2DDCA1BC872AF59213923F1749E2FF39F8BFF
10. Load that into Avenza and you are able to track your current location.
Note that Avenza free only allows tracking in three maps though.

What we need is a free iOS/Android app that can track any number of geoPFDs.
Do you know of any free ad free iOS/Android app that uses geospatial PDFs?

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:20:01 +1300, Your Name wrote:

> Why bother with a silly app? You're probably not going to have any
> internet connection and the battery will run out.

These are kids. They don't plan ahead. They asked me at the last minute.
But to your point of the paper PDF, check this out (it lasts 7 days).
<https://caltopo.com/p/62GGH> I just made this paper map for them
> Best just to get ye olde paper-based maps instead (or even better are
> plasticised ones that won't tear easily when wet) - they'll work no
> matter where you are.

Paper sucks when printed on a black and white printer at 8.5x11 inches.
Plus these are kids. They were born with a phone in their cradle.

They may have cellular signal on the 4000 foot peaks but not in the ravines.
I told them to keep the phone off or at least in airplane mode.

I thought of printing a paper map which could be tiled and then spliced.
One way to do that is the following, which does most of the work for you.

1. Visit any geospatial map generator that can create custom geoPDFs.
I used Caltopo but many generate geoPDFs <https://caltopo.com/map.html>
2. Zoom into the areas of interest (search by location or by coordinates)
Loma Prieta:
<https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=37.10831,-121.84426&z=15&b=mbt>
Mount Madonna:
<https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=37.0112,-121.70288&z=15&b=mbt>
3. If desired right click on any spot to "add" (named) markers or tracks
(Press the Export button to export waypoints/tracks to GPX/KML.)
Note in some browsers you can only export once due to a bug I guess.
(You can also import tracks from other apps onto this topo map.)
Note that this exported GPX/KML file is separate from the map,
but when you load it into your map program later, it shows up there.
Note that you can check elevations at any point with a right mouse
click and you can easily measure distances (e.g., Mount Madonna to
Loma Prieta is 16.64km or 10.34 miles as the crow flies). You can
draw a "range ring" or measure area, or get an elevation profile
between two points, or a bearing line which you can insert into
your bearing app (which we'll talk about later).
4. Click the Caltopo "Printer" icon button & set page size, scale, etc.
(e.g., 1:24,000, 8-1/2x11, etc.)
The free caltopo won't print to larger than A4 so to print a
larger size we'll need to post process multiple PDFs using tricks.
5. Add as many map pages as needed to cover the desired hiking area
(Note when you click "Add Page", Caltopo assumes the new page is
in the middle of your viewing area where you have to move that
new page to the desired location by grabbing the center red button.)
Note that you can re-align the map pages as desired at any time.
Note that you can set the scale as desired (e.g., 1:24,000).
6. When you've sectioned out the desired areas, press "Generate PDF"
That generates a whole bunch of things including a multi-page geoPDF
& URL for anyone to access it & even a QR code for others to access

Note the free Caltopo can only save a PDF for 7 days so get it fast.
<https://caltopo.com/p/62GGH>

Note that it's trivial to copy the resulting map onto your phone if
you're on Android but it's always a little harder if you're on iOS.

The easiest way therefore to get the resulting map into Avenza that both the
Android & iOS users can use is to simply point Avenza to the generated URL.
7. Start Avenza on your phone & press the yellow "plus" button
8. Press "From the Web" & enter the URL provided to the multipage geoPDF
<https://caltopo.com/p/62GGH> <=== *this link only lasts 7 days!*

In summary, the advantage of Caltopo is not only that you can run all sorts
of calculations but that you can also plan out your route and then export
that route in any number of common formats (e.g., gpx) that any map app will
read later.

Another advantage of Caltopo is that you can create a geoPDF of anything
contiguous and it will be a multipage PDF (such as the four page geoPDF
created above) which you can later stitch together separately using
something like posterazor or even Adobe Acrobat to print to paper format.
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/posterazor/>

The disadvantage of Caltopo is that the free version is limited so if you
know of a better web site for the kids to create a multi-page geoPDF, please
let all of us know as the goal is to help them and all of us do it better.

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 02:20:12 -0500, Paul wrote:

> You want an established trail, because that makes it easier to
> predict when you will arrive. This time of year, you lose the light
> early.

Thanks for your advice as you are always purposefully helpful
(and often funny in the way you are seasoned and sarcastic about things).

These kids don't want to follow any "established trail" and I don't blame
them as I wouldn't want to follow any trail anyone else made for me either.

> If you've ever hit "heavy brush" (which won't show on a map), then
> you will know what "impassible" means.

This is exactly why the OSM maps suck horribly when compared to USGS topo
maps in rugged country such as these Santa Cruz Mountain ranges are.

Everyone knows I love the OSM concept, and for roads, it works pretty well,
but for accurate terrain features, OSM sucks like you can't believe.

If OSM would work I would have told them to download OSMAnd~ (at least it's
free on Android - I don't know if OSMAnd~ is even on iOS which is
unfortunately always greatly limited in free ad free app availability).
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/>

> Small animals will cut a trail
> through that stuff, but for you to pass, you travel on your hands
> and knees along their trail.

A game trail is fine though, but often in chaparral you can only go over or
under, but not through it (which only people in chaparral would know).

Some of these hills are so steep that you can see even the deer slipped.

These kids will all be carrying a harness and climbing gear and they have
opted only for 100 feet of rope which they will re-use as needed on cliffs.

> And a couple hundred feet of that,
> is experience enough thanks. You couldn't do a mile of that stuff.
> And you can't stand up and run away screaming, because... you can't
> stand up in it. It's impossible to stand up. It's too thick.

The ravines out here are so steep and soft sided that I make the analogy
that to enter a ravine is like how the Japanese and Germans entered WWII.

You can always enter anywhere you like on your own terms, but once you are
in the ravine, then you can't leave the war on your own terms anymore.

The ravine controls where you will finally find peace, and that's usually
at a body of water at the bottom which, thankfully, is flat or at least
not clogged with impenetrable poison oak (you hope).
> That's why you use a proper trail. You want the experience to be
> enjoyable, not an "ode to exercise". When I went on that trip,
> I wasn't expecting to go through heavy brush.

These kids _want_ the challenge of taking their bearings at one mountaintop
and then descending down the mountain into the depths of the ravines to find
their way, by compass and topography, back to another high mountain point.

To that end I made sure they had a few key free ad free compass type apps on
Android that I haven't had a chance to find on iOS yet for free.

Azimuth Compass (which is just a fast simple easy to use compass app).
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ro.overwrite.azimuthcompass>

GPS Waypoint Finder (points to the objective and gives distance information)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.gpswaypoints>

mvglasow SatStat (does nav stuff but also gives them cellular tower info)
<https://github.com/mvglasow/satstat>

> Going through heavy brush is fine if you're on your own property,
> and the purpose of the trip is to "cut trail". You can take your
> time, and do a couple hundred feet per day. The stuff I was going
> through, I think I'd want a battery chainsaw, rather than a
> machete.

I know rather well what you speak of as the greasewood and coyote brush are
easy to traverse but it gets worse in manzanita & toyon thickets and even
worse when the buckeye, canyon maple, madrones & oaks change to horridly
spiny ceanothus bushes which are the nastiest things this side of poison oak
vines coming out of the ground as thick as your forearm such that your feet
are a foot above the ground until they crash through and then you trip over
if you have any forward momentum (as you might on a hill).

> Established trails are boring, but they exist for a reason.

Between you and me, I doubt these kids will get anywhere near where they
"think" they will, as it's 10 miles point to point and they only have 3 days
to do it, but they have no idea how difficult this terrain is.

The parents are dropping them off at Mount Madonna and they are supposed to
call them for a pickup at the radio towers on Loma Prieta but I doubt
they'll make even half the distance.

Luckily you can drink the water in the streams out here (I drink it all the
time for example) and there aren't too many bugs to speak of. The mountain
lions will see you but you'll never see them. Rattlers aren't a problem and
neither are the coyote or bobcats so they're relatively safe as long as they
don't get too cold and wet crossing or walking in the cold water streams.

Just in case, they each have a tiny bottle of bleach (two drops per liter),
and they each have a knife and a physical compass and a first aid kid.

They came to me after having planned this for months where my job was merely
to supply them with iOS and Android apps that they could synchronize on.

I'm trying to find an iOS & Android free ad free _offline_ star chart
program for them at this moment where the three on Android I'm testing are
Sky Map:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.stardroid>

Star Chart:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.escapistgames.starchart>

Stellarium Mobile:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.noctuasoftware.stellarium_free>

Since the goal is to help the kids and to help others learn how to navigate
completely offline using their iOS & Android smartphones, if anyone knows of
a free ad free iOS app that does the same thing as those above, let us know.

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 23:38:12 -0600, sticks wrote:

> I use Gaia, it's free, and really works great. Used it from the Rockies
> in Canada, , Glacier Park in Montana, desert southwest, and always when
> I hike locally in the midwest. Most areas already have marked trails to
> follow, or you can make your own, or simply record where you go and
> create your new gpx file. It really does it all for free.
> There are other options you can pay for, but I've found the free stuff
> works great for me.
>
> https://www.gaiagps.com/

Thanks for pitching in since no one person knows everything about both iOS
and Android free ad free registration free navigation apps for the kids.

A great thing about GAIA GPS is that it apparently works on both platforms
which is great because most of these kids are on iOS and not on Android.

Android Gaia GPS
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trailbehind.android.gaiagps.pro>
iOS Gaia GPS
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/gaia-gps-hiking-offroad-maps/id1201979492>

Unfortunately, when I installed Gaia GPS on my devices (I have plenty of iOS
and Android devices to test things on), like Avenza it asked for a login,
but unlike Avenza, it didn't have an "X" button or "skip" option that I
could find.

It said "Gaia GPS is now a part of the Outside family. Creating an account
with Gaia GPS also gets you an account with Outside along with all the
benefits that an Outside member has" which is all well and good, but it's
really bad form to force an account upon a person for _any_ app.

As you may well be aware, almost nothing on a phone should require a login
account, and as you may be aware, the main reason a company forces such
unnecessary things is to keep tabs on you (which is why my Android phone
works just fine with _zero_ accounts set up on it for example).

We're trying to teach these kids how to use a phone just as much as we're
trying to supply these kids with only the best most private apps possible.

Given any offline navigation app that requires a login is completely
worthless, can you let me know if I made a mistake in not finding something
as simple as a "skip" button when I tried to install Gaia on my devices?

Dana Fri, 31 Dec 2021 22:57:37 -0000 (UTC), Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> napis'o:
> Kids going hiking for three days from point to point in the mountains.
> They'll start around 500 feet in elevation and turn back at around 4000.
>
> *What are the best apps you'd recommend they put on their smartphones?*
> [They asked me to make a list for them & they're on both Android & iOS.]
>
> Conditions are USA, Santa Cruz Mountains (rugged, no trails).
> Cellular signal will be spotty at best (no matter the cellular carrier).
> Topography will be rough (they'll be carrying only 100 feet of rope).
>
> I'm starting the app list now, from memory, but I figured there might be
> (a) purposefully helpful people out there who (b) have done this before.
>
> What iOS & Android apps would you recommend a bunch of kids use for back
> country hiking where they will not be following any established trails?

Install Osmand and track recording for it.
When they get back they can upload their track and mark thing they found
on the Openstreetmap.

On 12/31/2021 9:38 PM, sticks wrote:
> On 12/31/2021 10:57 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 12/31/2021 7:30 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> We need a few things that others who know more than I do can help with.
>>> a. Is there any other Android/iOS free app that works as well or better?
>>> b. How can we most easily stitch the maps together into a single map?
>>> c. How can we most easily add desired waypoints & desired gpx tracks?
>>
>> Your problem is the "free" part. You can do this with an app like All
>> Trails, importing gpx tracks and downloading offline maps. But to do
>> it for free requires a lot more work.
>
> I use Gaia, it's free, and really works great.  Used it from the Rockies
> in Canada, , Glacier Park in Montana, desert southwest, and always when
> I hike locally in the midwest.  Most areas already have marked trails to
> follow, or you can make your own, or simply record where you go and
> create your new gpx file.  It really does it all for free.
> There are other options you can pay for, but I've found the free stuff
> works great for me.
>
> https://www.gaiagps.com/

Can you create a gpx file, in advance, and import it into the program?

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 22:57:37 -0000 (UTC), Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Kids going hiking for three days from point to point in the mountains.
> They'll start around 500 feet in elevation and turn back at around 4000.
>
> *What are the best apps you'd recommend they put on their smartphones?*
> [They asked me to make a list for them & they're on both Android & iOS.]
>
> Conditions are USA, Santa Cruz Mountains (rugged, no trails).
> Cellular signal will be spotty at best (no matter the cellular carrier).
> Topography will be rough (they'll be carrying only 100 feet of rope).
>
> I'm starting the app list now, from memory, but I figured there might be
> (a) purposefully helpful people out there who (b) have done this before.
>
> What iOS & Android apps would you recommend a bunch of kids use for back
> country hiking where they will not be following any established trails?

In searching for a way to find already-stitched geoPDFs which can
a. Show the current position
b. Show that current position along a previously imported gpx track
c. Save a breadcrumb track of the actual track taken over time
I looked into the National Geologic Map Database project web site which
provided additional formats {geoTIFF, JPEG, KMZ, & geoPDF} which may be
useful (particularly the geoTIFF perhaps?) as described in detail below.

1. Go to "Accessing USGS Topographic Maps Has Never Been Easier"
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/>
2. Press on "Get Maps" on the top bar
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#4/40.01/-99.93>
3. Enter "Loma Prieta" or "Mount Madonna" in the "Search by Location" bar.
That found 27 maps for each from 1880 to 2021 in a variety of scales.
Loma Prieta:
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#15/37.1083/-121.8416>
Mount Madonna:
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#15/37.0124/-121.7049>
4. Place the date slider from 1880 to nearer to 2021 & select the 24K scale.

The result will be four maps of the 2021 series for each in four formats
a. Loma Prieta
JPEG (9MB) CA_Loma_Prieta_20211119_TM_geo_jpg.zip
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_download.pl?id=98b28c66fff61ec2265379c1e811faaa&fmt=jpg>
KMZ (5MB) CA_Loma_Prieta_20211119_TM_geo_kmz.zip
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_download.pl?id=98b28c66fff61ec2265379c1e811faaa&fmt=kmz>
GeoTiff (19MB) CA_Loma_Prieta_20211119_TM_geo_tif.zip
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_download.pl?id=98b28c66fff61ec2265379c1e811faaa&fmt=tif>
GeoPDF (48MB) CA_Loma_Prieta_20211119_TM_geo.pdf
<https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/StagedProducts/Maps/USTopo/PDF/CA/CA_Loma_Prieta_20211119_TM_geo.pdf>

JPEG (7MB) CA_Mount_Madonna_20211119_TM_geo_jpg.zip
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_download.pl?id=ba56e7c8754972962fc0698757206824&fmt=jpg>
KMZ (4MB) CA_Mount_Madonna_20211119_TM_geo_kmz.zip
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_download.pl?id=ba56e7c8754972962fc0698757206824&fmt=kmz>
GeoTiff (18MB) CA_Mount_Madonna_20211119_TM_geo_tif.zip
<https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_download.pl?id=ba56e7c8754972962fc0698757206824&fmt=tif>
GeoPDF (46MB) CA_Mount_Madonna_20211119_TM_geo.pdf
<https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/StagedProducts/Maps/USTopo/PDF/CA/CA_Mount_Madonna_20211119_TM_geo.pdf>

5. I didn't test it due to time constraints, but the results should be
usable inside of the aforementioned iOS/Android Avenza freeware.

Note the JPEG has viewing value in that everyone on iOS & Android can use it.
The geoTIFF may have additional value perhaps when I get to the point of
stitching together multiple quadrangles to create a single map with an
existing proposed GPX track for the kids to potentially follow.

I haven't yet delved deeply into the geostitching software which is mostly
going to be run on the Windows platform since it will require manipulation.
*FOSS QGIS professional complete GIS mapping packages*
<https://qgis.org/en/site/forusers/download.html>

*OziExplorer* GPS Mapping Trialware for personal use only
<https://oziexplorer4.com/w/>

*GDAL translator library for raster and vector geospatial data formats *
<https://gdal.org/>

But unfortunately stitching doesn't lend itself to emergency quickie tests.
*Update on GeoPDFs in QGIS.*
<https://www.northrivergeographic.com/archives/update-on-geopdfs>

*QGIS - Creating a GeoPDF*
<https://www.cadlinecommunity.co.uk/hc/en-us/articles/360003823717-QGIS-Creating-a-GeoPDF>

*Working with GeoPDF*
<https://www.usna.edu/Users/oceano/pguth/md_help/html/geopdf.htm>

*Working with GDAL*
<https://spatialthoughts.com/2015/10/25/geopdf-gdal/>

Time is running out so if you have experience stitching together
multiple geospatial maps into a single usable map that can do the
following on both the iOS and Android platform, that would help!
a. It must show the current location on the stitched map
b. It should be able to import & show a given planned track on the map
c. It should be able to save & display the current track on the map

On 12/31/2021 2:57 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Kids going hiking for three days from point to point in the mountains.
> They'll start around 500 feet in elevation and turn back at around 4000.
>
> *What are the best apps you'd recommend they put on their smartphones?*
> [They asked me to make a list for them & they're on both Android & iOS.]
>
> Conditions are USA, Santa Cruz Mountains (rugged, no trails).
> Cellular signal will be spotty at best (no matter the cellular carrier).
> Topography will be rough (they'll be carrying only 100 feet of rope).

Untrue. But you already knew that.

Look at the actual FCC maps for cellular coverage in that area (from
https://fcc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6c1b2e73d9d749cdb7bc88a0d1bdd25b):
<https://i.imgur.com/0Nn3C2P.png>.

Look at the actual WhistleOut maps for cellular coverage in that area
(from https://www.whistleout.com/CellPhones/Guides/Coverage):
<https://i.imgur.com/orl84Fb.png>.

Indeed, T-Mobile coverage is extremely spotty. AT&T coverage is a bit
better. Verizon coverage is excellent. And I've personally experienced
this as well at Mount Madonna and Mount Umunhum though not at Loma
Prieta Peak.

At least, for the safety of the children, go get a Verizon/Total
Wireless SIM card, for $1, and activate a $10/120 day account on
Verizon/Page Plus, so they'll have coverage in case of emergency
(assuming they have a phone that is compatible).

Here is a coverage comparison for southern Alameda, San Mateo, Santa
Clara, and Santa Cruz Counties: <https://i.imgur.com/1w58JJA.png>. Again
the coverage differences, outside of the urban areas, are enormous. All
the experts agree that if coverage in rural areas is important that you
should stick with Verizon (or at least have a Verizon back-up phone).

Also see the document: Prepaid Phone Service for Foreign Visitors to
the United States at <https://tinyurl.com/us-prepaid-foreign>.

On 1/1/2022 4:39 AM, sms wrote:
> On 12/31/2021 9:38 PM, sticks wrote:
>> On 12/31/2021 10:57 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 12/31/2021 7:30 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> We need a few things that others who know more than I do can help with.
>>>> a. Is there any other Android/iOS free app that works as well or
>>>> better?
>>>> b. How can we most easily stitch the maps together into a single map?
>>>> c. How can we most easily add desired waypoints & desired gpx tracks?
>>>
>>> Your problem is the "free" part. You can do this with an app like All
>>> Trails, importing gpx tracks and downloading offline maps. But to do
>>> it for free requires a lot more work.
>>
>> I use Gaia, it's free, and really works great.  Used it from the
>> Rockies in Canada, , Glacier Park in Montana, desert southwest, and
>> always when I hike locally in the midwest.  Most areas already have
>> marked trails to follow, or you can make your own, or simply record
>> where you go and create your new gpx file.  It really does it all for
>> free.
>> There are other options you can pay for, but I've found the free stuff
>> works great for me.
>>
>> https://www.gaiagps.com/
>
> Can you create a gpx file, in advance, and import it into the program?

I see that you can do that. It looks similar to All Trails. Alas,
offline maps are not included in the free version.

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 12:36:02 -0000 (UTC), Nikolaj Lazic wrote:

> Install Osmand and track recording for it.
> When they get back they can upload their track and mark thing they found
> on the Openstreetmap.

Given the goal is to help these kids and, at the same time, to enable anyone
on either iOS or Android to perform the basic task backcountry hikers need,
I thank you for the advice to use OSMand~ which has excellent tools to
a. Display an OSM topographic map offline
b. Show the current location & route on that OSM topo map
c. Show a planned route on that OSM topo map
<https://osmand.net/>

The free OSMAnd iOS app is here, I think:
<https://github.com/osmandapp/OsmAnd-iOS>
And, I think, here on the Apple App Store:
<https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id934850257>
While the payware iOS OSMAnd+ app is here, I think:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>

Likewise, the free FOSS Android OSMAnd~ app (almost OSMAnd+) is here:
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/>
Where that OSMAnd~ is almost exactly the same as the OSMAnd+ payware.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>

I've been using OSMAnd~ for many years and I love the concept of open street
maps that don't require an account to work just fine completely offline.

What I love about OSMAnd~ is that it saves tracks and it displays them on
the map and it copies your current coordinates easily for use elsewhere.

But what's unfortunate about OSMAnd~ is the OSM contour maps are crap
compared to those of the USGS within the United States. For areas _outside_
the United States, the contour maps may be the best that is available.

But inside the USA where contours are everywhere (this is very rugged hilly
steep landslide fault line topography), unfortunately, OSM contour maps suck
for anything other than blindly following already well established trails.

I must caveat that statement with the fact that I _love_ the concept of open
street maps, and I use OSM frequently for offline road maps, but if you've
ever compared a USGS map with an OSM map in hilly terrain, you'd know what I
know about OSM maps not being anywhere near the usability of the USGS maps.

"Andy Burnelli" <spam@nospam.com> wrote

| Kids going hiking for three days from point to point in the mountains.
| They'll start around 500 feet in elevation and turn back at around 4000.
| | *What are the best apps you'd recommend they put on their smartphones?*
| [They asked me to make a list for them & they're on both Android & iOS.]
|

I'd recommend "Social Services is a Cinch", for when the forest
service manages to save 2 of the kids from death by exposure
and they threaten to never let you talk to the others again.

On 12/31/21 5:57 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Kids going hiking for three days from point to point in the mountains.
> They'll start around 500 feet in elevation and turn back at around 4000.
>
> *What are the best apps you'd recommend they put on their smartphones?*
> [They asked me to make a list for them & they're on both Android & iOS.]
>
> Conditions are USA, Santa Cruz Mountains (rugged, no trails).
> Cellular signal will be spotty at best (no matter the cellular carrier).
> Topography will be rough (they'll be carrying only 100 feet of rope).
>
> I'm starting the app list now, from memory, but I figured there might be
> (a) purposefully helpful people out there who (b) have done this before.
>
> What iOS & Android apps would you recommend a bunch of kids use for back
> country hiking where they will not be following any established trails?

Put 911 and the local rangers' rescue number on speed dial! Also carry a
couple of good quality FRS two-way radios and some spare batteries.

If they're at least 21 years old and it's legal in your area, bring a
handgun. If only over 18, then a light weight collapsible or compact
survival-type rifle.`

--
The reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the naughty
girls live

On 1/1/2022 6:54 AM, Wade Garrett wrote:

<snip>

> Put 911 and the local rangers' rescue number on speed dial! Also carry a
> couple of good quality  FRS two-way radios and some spare batteries.

Uh '911 on speed dial?' If they don't know how to press 911 then they
shouldn't be going on this backpacking trip!

Not really a park the whole way, so ranger's phone numbers are not
necessary, if they exist at all. 911 is enough.

If the kids are like him, and on T-Mobile, then 911 is the only thing
they need anyway since 911 calls will go through on the carriers with
coverage in that area. Only AT&T and Verizon have good coverage up in
that area, see <https://i.imgur.com/0Nn3C2P.png> and
<https://i.imgur.com/orl84Fb.png>. It often upsets T-Mobile aficionados
when vast differences in rural coverage are shown, but I feel that it's
important to be honest about the differences in networks since it's a
matter of both convenience as well as a matter of safety.

> If they're at least 21 years old and it's legal in your area, bring a
> handgun. If only over 18, then a light weight collapsible or compact
> survival-type rifle.`

Not allowed in County Parks like Mount Madonna.

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 05:46:57 -0800, sms wrote:

>>> https://www.gaiagps.com/
>>
>> Can you create a gpx file, in advance, and import it into the program?
>
> I see that you can do that. It looks similar to All Trails. Alas,
> offline maps are not included in the free version.

This may be similar to what Steve may be asking for in creating tracks from
scratch. I don't know as the kids are now already on their way so I stopped
looking a few hours ago but this seems to maybe allow folks to draw tracks.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wolfgangknecht.sketchatrack>

You bring up an excellent point, as you often do, that one set of tools we
have so far only discussed from the PC perspective are those tools that
allow folks to _draw_ GPX tracks onto the map and then export those drawn
tracks (and waypoints) to a GPX file (e.g., Caltopo) which is then imported
into the smartphone nav app.

But we haven't discussed yet tools on the iOS/Android smartphone itself
which allow the user to draw the tracks and export it as a GPX file.

The goal, of course, would be to be able to do on both iOS & Android:
a. Offline, free, no login, no ads, etc.
b. Draw tracks & save the results in a variety of formats, including GPX
c. Import tracks and modify the results before saving to a new GPX file
(If conversion is needed, then GPSBabel may be needed though.)
<https://www.gpsbabel.org/download.html>

Here is a free tool that purports to let you draw tracks, but it has ads.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lapacadevs.justdrawit>

This also purports to draw what you input, but maybe it's only waypoints?
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.psyberia.offlinemaps>

Perhaps here is where OSMAnd~ can excel in drawing tracks on the smartphone?
<https://osmand.net/features/trip-planning>

This purports to be a GPX viewer and editor so it may also work:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wolfgangknecht.sketchatrack>

I couldn't figure out how BRrouter works with Locus but I know Poutnik uses
it a lot so maybe he can explain if "the wanderer" is still lurking about.
<https://docs.locusmap.eu/doku.php?id=manual:faq:how_to_navigate_offline>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=btools.routingapp>
<https://www.locusmap.app/>

Grasshopper apparently does "route planning" but it required a signup.
<https://www.graphhopper.com/>

Anyway, they're on their way, but it's still a useful endeavor to find the
best iOS and Android (or even Windows) free track sketching tool so that
other people can plan a back country route and then see how well they're
keeping to that planned route.

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 05:45:42 -0800, sms wrote:

> Untrue. But you already knew that.
>
> Look at the actual FCC maps for cellular coverage in that area (from
> https://fcc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6c1b2e73d9d749cdb7bc88a0d1bdd25b):
> <https://i.imgur.com/0Nn3C2P.png>.
>
> Look at the actual WhistleOut maps for cellular coverage in that area
> (from https://www.whistleout.com/CellPhones/Guides/Coverage):
> <https://i.imgur.com/orl84Fb.png>.
>
> Indeed, T-Mobile coverage is extremely spotty. AT&T coverage is a bit
> better. Verizon coverage is excellent. And I've personally experienced
> this as well at Mount Madonna and Mount Umunhum though not at Loma
> Prieta Peak.

In this thread about iOS/Android backcountry offline free registration free
ad free navigation tools, I'm not going to argue cellular coverage for a
couple of rather pragmatic reasons, one of which is that for the topic of
backcountry navigation, we have to _assume_ that cell coverage isn't
assured.

And given I've emailed the map information mostly to the kids who are on
@vtext.com accounts (verizon) & some are one @txt.att.net accounts (AT&T)
and even one person is on a @tmomail.com account (t-mobile)... what that
means, practically speaking, is that coverage has to be there for all the
major carriers for me to give up on trying to find offline navigation tools.

The goal is for all of them to map together, so if even _one_ carrier (most
likely T-Mobile is what you're saying and I'm fine with that for this
purpose), then we _still_ need to give them fully offline navigation tools.

Yet another reason why coverage doesn't matter for this thread even if it
very well may be that the areas in question are _not_ backcountry areas in
terms of (oh, say, Verizon) cellular coverage is that coverage in any one
spot doesn't change the _second_ reason for this thread, which, as always,
is to help _others_ (who may be in completely different areas of the USA).

> At least, for the safety of the children, go get a Verizon/Total
> Wireless SIM card, for $1, and activate a $10/120 day account on
> Verizon/Page Plus, so they'll have coverage in case of emergency
> (assuming they have a phone that is compatible).

The kids are already on their way as they all met up at the break of dawn.

One thing I'm actually worried about is that the weather at this time of
year can get at least to freezing at night, and these kids can be soaking
wet since you can't possibly hike this area without ending up in a ravine.

But that's up to all the parents to worry about where I'm just trying to
find suitable best-in-class navigation apps that the kids can make use of.

> Here is a coverage comparison for southern Alameda, San Mateo, Santa
> Clara, and Santa Cruz Counties: <https://i.imgur.com/1w58JJA.png>. Again
> the coverage differences, outside of the urban areas, are enormous. All
> the experts agree that if coverage in rural areas is important that you
> should stick with Verizon (or at least have a Verizon back-up phone).
>
> Also see the document: Prepaid Phone Service for Foreign Visitors to
> the United States at <https://tinyurl.com/us-prepaid-foreign>.

It's OK that you feel the coverage is better for some carriers than others
in the rugged mountains between Loma Prieta & Mount Madonna, but that
doesn't change the goal one bit for fully offline backcountry nav tools.

One necessary functionality we didn't cover in depth for backcountry use is
a breadcrumb logger, where I already know OSMAnd~ has a fine trip recording
plugin. <https://osmand.net/features/trip-recording-plugin>

Since I'm always all about team efforts, and since I always want everyone to
benefit from the tremendous knowledge imparted by everyone in every thread,
here are some breadcrumb trackers I was able to begin testing for them.

Since I was pressed for time, I only researched Android breadcrumb apps.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmtracker>
<https://www.basicairdata.eu/projects/android/android-gps-logger/>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ilyabogdanovich.geotracker>
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/de.dennisguse.opentracks/>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=mobi.maptrek.lite>

Even though it's too late for this set of kids' hike, if you know of good
iOS free login free ad free breadcrumb apps, let us know so that everyone
can make use of the information in this thread (especially since the "rich
kids" in this hike are mostly on iOS & Verizon anyway).

On 1/1/2022 9:00 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 05:45:42 -0800, sms wrote:
>
>> Untrue. But you already knew that.
>>
>> Look at the actual FCC maps for cellular coverage in that area (from
>> https://fcc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6c1b2e73d9d749cdb7bc88a0d1bdd25b):
>> <https://i.imgur.com/0Nn3C2P.png>.
>>
>> Look at the actual WhistleOut maps for cellular coverage in that area
>> (from https://www.whistleout.com/CellPhones/Guides/Coverage):
>> <https://i.imgur.com/orl84Fb.png>.
>>
>> Indeed, T-Mobile coverage is extremely spotty. AT&T coverage is a bit
>> better. Verizon coverage is excellent. And I've personally experienced
>> this as well at Mount Madonna and Mount Umunhum though not at Loma
>> Prieta Peak.
>
> In this thread about iOS/Android backcountry offline free registration free
> ad free navigation tools, I'm not going to argue cellular coverage for a
> couple of rather pragmatic reasons, one of which is that for the topic of
> backcountry navigation, we have to _assume_ that cell coverage isn't
> assured.

Not assured, but especially in the Santa Cruz Mountains, where it's
really not "back country" there's a tremendous difference in coverage
because Verizon and AT&T service evolved over 3+ decades and the
carriers they were spawned from spent a lot of money to cover the area.
There was a slight dip in coverage when AMPS was turned off. T-Mobile
just never made much of an effort, at first it was because it would take
so many towers to provide coverage with 1900 MHz GSM and later because
the population density just didn't warrant the capital expenditures.

I know that it often upsets T-Mobile aficionados when vast differences
in rural coverage are shown, but I feel that it's important to be honest
about the differences in networks since it's a matter of both
convenience as well as a matter of safety.

In article <sqq2vt$am2$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> I know that it often upsets T-Mobile aficionados when vast differences
> in rural coverage are shown, but I feel that it's important to be honest
> about the differences in networks since it's a matter of both
> convenience as well as a matter of safety.

you are the very opposite of honest and you shill for verizon.

the differences between the big three cell carriers are not 'vast' and
there are plenty of areas in the santa cruz mountains where there is no
service at all, not even verizon.

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 07:32:09 -0800, sms wrote:

>> Put 911 and the local rangers' rescue number on speed dial! Also carry a
>> couple of good quality� FRS two-way radios and some spare batteries.
>
> Uh '911 on speed dial?' If they don't know how to press 911 then they
> shouldn't be going on this backpacking trip!

They were almost all born with an iPhone in their cribs, so dialing a phone
isn't an issue with them (battery life might be though - we'll see).

> Not really a park the whole way, so ranger's phone numbers are not
> necessary, if they exist at all. 911 is enough.

These kids grew up with iPhones in their hands as they're a mix of girls and
boys who are a bunch of "rich kids" (one of whom is my grand daughter) where
I'm told (by some) they all do coke in the bathrooms of the local high
school, where most of them are clearly on iPhones and on Verizon, so you'd
feel right at home with these kids (probably no different than your kids a
bit further up north on the same set of mountains but on the other side of
the fault line).
> If the kids are like him, and on T-Mobile, then 911 is the only thing
> they need anyway since 911 calls will go through on the carriers with
> coverage in that area.

It's not a good plan when hiking in the hundred acre wood to rely on 911 to
save their buns if they get in trouble. I reminded them to stick together
and if anyone turns back (which some very well might), that nobody goes in
any direction alone.

I handed them my radio and told them not to use except in case of emergency
and all the neighbors on the mountain are already on the same repeater
anyway where most of the kids are from the surrounding area so we're all on
alert via our ham radios.

> Only AT&T and Verizon have good coverage up in
> that area, see <https://i.imgur.com/0Nn3C2P.png> and
> <https://i.imgur.com/orl84Fb.png>. It often upsets T-Mobile aficionados
> when vast differences in rural coverage are shown, but I feel that it's
> important to be honest about the differences in networks since it's a
> matter of both convenience as well as a matter of safety.

For the purpose of this thread the coverage doesn't matter for a variety of
reasons, one of which is that the whole point is to not have to rely on a
cell phone just to do a bit of navigation in the back country ravines.

Anyone hiking needs the same stuff in that it _all_ must work offline.
Nothing can require a login (even the phone doesn't need a log in).

What they need is what anyone needs who does backcountry hiking...
a. They need a good compass (manual and electronic)
b. They need a good waypoint finder (delivering bearing and distance)
c. They need a good underlying USGS geomap (for accurate positioning)
d. They need a good breadcrumb logger (to marvel over the hike later)
e. They need a good route planner & waypoint exporter (to keep on target)

Just in case they needed it, I gave them the huge JPEG files so that at the
very worst they can zoom into where they think they are located and still
have detail enough to match with the surrounding terrain (which is where
USGS maps excel over the OSM maps that I would wish were a lot better).

Actually, I just thought of something they could use on both iOS and on
Android which is one of those emergency SMS apps which will send out the
location of the phone when triggered.

*GPS to SMS - location sharing*
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.perm.trubnikov.gps2sms>

Googling, this explains emergency iOS & Android location sharing.
*How to set up emergency location sharing on Android and iOS*
<https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/18/18267500/how-to-set-up-emergency-location-sharing-android-ios>

>> If they're at least 21 years old and it's legal in your area, bring a
>> handgun. If only over 18, then a light weight collapsible or compact
>> survival-type rifle.`
>
> Not allowed in County Parks like Mount Madonna.

I think they'll need brush cutters more than anything given that they aren't
following the trails, where it's only about 10 miles as they're only going
one way - but I seriously doubt the younger ones will make it.

Even the leaders are only sophomores in high school (I think one girl is a
junior actually but she's a shy one so the leaders are the sophs mostly).

It's only 10 miles but it's a rough ten miles I would say just looking at
the terrain. I drew out a GPX swath from pinnacle to pinnacle and looked at
the underlying elevation which is an appreciable change from 2,000 feet at
Mount Madonna to 3,600 feet at Loma Prieta but with crossings of Uvas Creek
& Alek Creek and Croy Creek (each at about 1,400 feet) as the crow flies
(the lowest crossing point being around 1,000 feet).

Luckily they'll be able to drink the creek water if they get thirsty so they
don't need to carry more than a soda bottle's worth or two of bottled stuff.

Anyway, I'll wrap up my research for now as I haven't slept all night trying
to help them out where I appreciate all the kind help that others have
offered here, which shows you have good hearts and caring souls.

The whole point is to help each other so that we all know more about cross
platform backcountry navigation apps after reading this thread than before
we read it.