Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.

On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
>> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
>> FWIW
>> UH
>
> That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
ultra reliable electric motor gliders??

I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:18:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
>
> On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
> >> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
> have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
> first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
> >> FWIW
> >> UH
> >
> > That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
> systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
>
> I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
> Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
> are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
> summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:18:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
>
> On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
> >> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
> have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
> first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
> >> FWIW
> >> UH
> >
> > That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
> systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
>
> I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
> Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
> are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
> summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Want a guarantee? Try powered by nuclear fusion, certainly a fire but external to the glider.

If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> > ultra reliable electric motor gliders??

Anything more complex than a rock is probably never going to qualify as fool-proof, zero maintenance and ultra reliable.

On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
>
> On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
> >> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
> have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
> first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
> >> FWIW
> >> UH
> >
> > That's weird.  MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
> systems.  If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
>
> I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
> Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
> are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
> summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
>
Alright, it now has it's own thread.

Part of reliability is safety. I trust the manufacturers like Schleicher, etc, to build a
good product, but if you are a "trust but verify" person, EASA has your back! This quote
is from the Nordic Gliding article on the Antares:

"A 21700 battery (with which the aircraft will be fitted from 2021/22) turns into as much
as 14 liters of gas in the event of a fire. The certification test dictates that any fire
must not spread to the rest of the battery which consists of 504 cells in each wing. Lange
has designed fireproof ventilation ducts in the wing, where the hot gases can be
ventilated out through if a fire occurs during flight. When the engine is running, the
ventilation opening is automatically opened under the wing by means of an electric servo."

The methods to prevent fire spreading have been studied for many years with cylindrical
cells of many chemistries, and the techniques are well known. Glider pilots are not the
only people that don't want a cell failure to lead to incineration.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation
ducts open automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts
anyway? Think about that ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard
were running.

Dan
5J

On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically
> opened under the wing by means of an electric servo."

On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> But what about when the engine is NOT running?  Will these ventilation ducts open
> automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway?  Think about that
> ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
>> wing by means of an electric servo."
We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume it
occurred spontaneously in an EV.

I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.

Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring loaded
vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Oh - Sensors and servos... I've got them all over my Stemme.

As to not assuming the shipboard fire started in a car, I would find it
easier to assume that than some other thing. True, we don't have any
details and probably won't get any but I gotta ask: What generates a
fire hot enough to sink a ship which, one would assume, has fire
suppression systems.

Dan
5J

On 4/8/22 10:57, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> But what about when the engine is NOT running?  Will these ventilation
>> ducts open automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire
>> starts anyway?  Think about that ship; I don't think any of the cars
>> onboard were running.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>>
>> On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically
>>> opened under the wing by means of an electric servo."
> We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think
> we should assume it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
>
> I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open
> automatically when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors,
> servo, and control unit are already there, and likely standard operation
> is to leave them turned on during flight.
>
> Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could
> release a spring loaded vent door when the battery box temperature
> increased after cell eruption.
>

It would be very entertaining to listen in on the board meetings of the insurance
company(s), shipping company, the ship designers, the ship builder, owners of the cargo
(car-go: got to be a good pun in there), and their discussions with each other and the
people that loaded the vehicles, and the captain and the crew. A lot of actors in this
disaster, likely multiple errors.

On 4/8/2022 5:14 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Oh - Sensors and servos...  I've got them all over my Stemme.
>
> As to not assuming the shipboard fire started in a car, I would find it easier to assume
> that than some other thing.  True, we don't have any details and probably won't get any
> but I gotta ask:  What generates a fire hot enough to sink a ship which, one would assume,
> has fire suppression systems.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 4/8/22 10:57, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> But what about when the engine is NOT running?  Will these ventilation ducts open
>>> automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway?  Think about that
>>> ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>>
>>> On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
>>>> wing by means of an electric servo."
>> We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume
>> it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
>>
>> I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
>> when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
>> already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
>>
>> Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring
>> loaded vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
>>

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

BREAKING NEWS: The (former) owner of the Felicity Ace has decided
against shipping used bev cars in the future.

https://wonderfulengineering.com/this-car-shipping-giant-has-banned-shipping-of-used-evs-after-the-felicity-ace-sinking/

Now that doesn't definitively prove anything, but it shows which way
they're leaning (or listing).

On 4/8/22 20:10, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> It would be very entertaining to listen in on the board meetings of the
> insurance company(s), shipping company, the ship designers, the ship
> builder, owners of the cargo (car-go: got to be a good pun in there),
> and their discussions with each other and the people that loaded the
> vehicles, and the captain and the crew. A lot of actors in this
> disaster, likely multiple errors.
>
> On 4/8/2022 5:14 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Oh - Sensors and servos...  I've got them all over my Stemme.
>>
>> As to not assuming the shipboard fire started in a car, I would find
>> it easier to assume that than some other thing.  True, we don't have
>> any details and probably won't get any but I gotta ask:  What
>> generates a fire hot enough to sink a ship which, one would assume,
>> has fire suppression systems.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>>
>> On 4/8/22 10:57, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> But what about when the engine is NOT running?  Will these
>>>> ventilation ducts open automagically if the engine is off and a
>>>> battery fire starts anyway?  Think about that ship; I don't think
>>>> any of the cars onboard were running.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> 5J
>>>>
>>>> On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is
>>>>> automatically opened under the wing by means of an electric servo."
>>> We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't
>>> think we should assume it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
>>>
>>> I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent
>>> open automatically when a fire is detected would be simple, as the
>>> sensors, servo, and control unit are already there, and likely
>>> standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
>>>
>>> Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could
>>> release a spring loaded vent door when the battery box temperature
>>> increased after cell eruption.
>>>
>
>

the ship builder, owners of the cargo
(car-go: got to be a good pun in there)

"When you send something by car, it's called shipping. When you send something by ship, it's called cargo."

Steven Wright

It wasn't clear from the article if the used EV ban was because they'd been used, or
because used EVs could have accident damage, or how many of the Felicity Ace EVs were
used, if any. I thought all the cars, including EVs, were new.

On 4/8/2022 7:44 PM, kinsell wrote:
> BREAKING NEWS:  The (former) owner of the Felicity Ace has decided against shipping used
> bev cars in the future.
>
> https://wonderfulengineering.com/this-car-shipping-giant-has-banned-shipping-of-used-evs-after-the-felicity-ace-sinking/
>
>
> Now that doesn't definitively prove anything, but it shows which way they're leaning (or
> listing).
>
>
> On 4/8/22 20:10, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> It would be very entertaining to listen in on the board meetings of the insurance
>> company(s), shipping company, the ship designers, the ship builder, owners of the cargo
>> (car-go: got to be a good pun in there), and their discussions with each other and the
>> people that loaded the vehicles, and the captain and the crew. A lot of actors in this
>> disaster, likely multiple errors.
>>
>> On 4/8/2022 5:14 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Oh - Sensors and servos...  I've got them all over my Stemme.
>>>
>>> As to not assuming the shipboard fire started in a car, I would find it easier to
>>> assume that than some other thing.  True, we don't have any details and probably won't
>>> get any but I gotta ask:  What generates a fire hot enough to sink a ship which, one
>>> would assume, has fire suppression systems.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>>
>>> On 4/8/22 10:57, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>>> But what about when the engine is NOT running?  Will these ventilation ducts open
>>>>> automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway?  Think about
>>>>> that ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>> 5J
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>>> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under
>>>>>> the wing by means of an electric servo."
>>>> We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should
>>>> assume it occurred spontaneously in an EV.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
>>>> when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
>>>> already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
>>>>
>>>> Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring
>>>> loaded vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
>>>>
>>
>>
>

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Is supplying a burning battery compartment with fresh oxygen the right solution? Most modern battery fires cannot be extinguished (see Tesla advice to fire fighters). Smaller Lipo and LiFe batteries are charged and stored in a sealed fiberglass bag to deprive the battery of oxygen if it catches fire. I would prefer that the pilot is supplied with fresh air until he can bail out.

Matt

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 9:57:22 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation ducts open
> > automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway? Think about that
> > ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> >
> > On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
> >> wing by means of an electric servo."
> We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume it
> occurred spontaneously in an EV.
>
> I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
> when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
> already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
>
> Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring loaded
> vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

My understanding is the battery chemistry used in gliders already has all the oxygen it
needs to burn, so adding more does not increase the burning. The venting does expel the
hot gases and protects the battery box, and that protects the structure outside the box.
The pilot's fresh air vents still work normally, and if the battery box design meets the
certification requirements, he will not need to bail out, but simply land at an airport.

For small battery charging, I've read that the bag is to prevent the battery fire from
spreading while it burns itself out, and does not smother the fire.

On 4/9/2022 7:29 PM, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> Is supplying a burning battery compartment with fresh oxygen the right solution? Most modern battery fires cannot be extinguished (see Tesla advice to fire fighters). Smaller Lipo and LiFe batteries are charged and stored in a sealed fiberglass bag to deprive the battery of oxygen if it catches fire. I would prefer that the pilot is supplied with fresh air until he can bail out.
>
> Matt
>
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 9:57:22 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 4/8/2022 9:13 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> But what about when the engine is NOT running? Will these ventilation ducts open
>>> automagically if the engine is off and a battery fire starts anyway? Think about that
>>> ship; I don't think any of the cars onboard were running.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>>
>>> On 4/8/22 08:40, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> When the engine is running, the ventilation opening is automatically opened under the
>>>> wing by means of an electric servo."
>> We still don't know what caused the fire on the ship, so I don't think we should assume it
>> occurred spontaneously in an EV.
>>
>> I don't know the details of the Antares system, but making the vent open automatically
>> when a fire is detected would be simple, as the sensors, servo, and control unit are
>> already there, and likely standard operation is to leave them turned on during flight.
>>
>> Other simpler methods could be used: a mechanical thermofuse could release a spring loaded
>> vent door when the battery box temperature increased after cell eruption.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

> The pilot's fresh air vents still work normally, and if the battery box design meets the
> certification requirements, he will not need to bail out, but simply land at an airport.

Or you can simply land directly below the place your wings or fuselage melted. Venting fumes probably won't compensate for the heat of the battery fire.

On 4/10/2022 8:37 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>
>> The pilot's fresh air vents still work normally, and if the battery box design meets the
>> certification requirements, he will not need to bail out, but simply land at an airport.
>
> Or you can simply land directly below the place your wings or fuselage melted. Venting fumes probably won't compensate for the heat of the battery fire.
>
"Fumes" may not be a good choice of words for what is very hot gases. My understanding is
"venting fumes" is not the certification requirement; instead, the battery box must
protect the glider from the catastrophic failure of one cell, and the cell fire must not
spread to other cells. Venting the gases overboard is part of the solution; a fire
resistant box is another part. There may be additional measures used to meet the
certification requirements, of course.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
>
> On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
> >> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
> have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
> first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
> >> FWIW
> >> UH
> >
> > That's weird.  MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
> systems.  If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
>
> I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
> Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
> are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
> summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
>
I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 10:01:10 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
> >
> > On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
> > >> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
> > have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
> > first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
> > >> FWIW
> > >> UH
> > >
> > > That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
> > systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> > ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
> >
> > I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
> > Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the owners
> > are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that? One dealer
> > summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it, repeat as desired."
> >
> I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
> operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
> exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Let me take these points one at a time.

Fool Proof

That would be a machine that is totally immune to ANY unusual action taken by the pilot OR the crew. This concept, in a word, is ludicrous. Those of us who design systems run by others refer to them as being "fool resistant," instead.

Zero Maintenance

Zero, as they say, means ZERO. Surely you must be joking; there is no such thing as a "zero maintenance" aircraft.

Ultra-Reliable

You don't define what you mean by "ultra-reliable," but it must be at a level that the FAA uses in assessing the reliability of an essential system. Manufacturers typically achieve this level thru redundancy, as designing a system with a single point of failure component with this reliability level is exceedingly difficult. Even then, redundant systems can still have an inadvertent single point of failure component; witness the Sioux City DC-10 accident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232).

Glider club proof is the highest level of robustness and reliability.

On 4/10/2022 10:01 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
>>
>> On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
>>  >> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
>> have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
>> first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
>>  >> FWIW
>>  >> UH
>>  >
>>  > That's weird.  MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
>> systems.  If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero
>> maintenance ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
>>
>> I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
>> Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the
>> owners are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that?
>> One dealer summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it,
>> repeat as desired."
>>
> I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
> operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
> exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
>
I haven't heard from anyone disputing my remarks about FES gliders, but I did hear from
the owner of an FES glider, who also owns a very nice gas glider:

"The FES system is almost as reliable as a bird flapping its wings.
The need to read the manuals and follow limitations falls on a human.
So battery care and weather element care might be forgotten maintenance by humans.
The birds just need to find food and not become food.
So FES is close to zero but not without fool-proof reliability."

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 10:07:35 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/10/2022 10:01 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 4/8/2022 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> Trying to get this into it's own thread - 1st try failed.
> >>
> >> On 4/6/2022 6:23 AM, kinsell wrote:
> >> >> The MGM HBC series controllers that were being used(not sure if they still are), can
> >> have a nasty electrical fire if there is a short between board layers. I know this from
> >> first hand experience. The fire stops as soon as power is removed. Very stinky.
> >> >> FWIW
> >> >> UH
> >> >
> >> > That's weird. MGM-Compro is sposed to be a world leader in electrical propulsion
> >> systems. If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero
> >> maintenance ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
> >>
> >> I have good news for you: we have that glider already! And, it uses an FES propulsion.
> >> Talk to FES owners, monitor their news groups, and you'll discover what I did: the
> >> owners are very happy, and the news groups have very little conversation. Why is that?
> >> One dealer summed it up this way: "What's to talk about? You charge it, you fly it,
> >> repeat as desired."
> >>
> > I'm surprised no one has disputed the claim FES gliders are (relatively) simple to
> > operate, very low maintenance, highly reliable motorgliders. I don't think the claim is
> > exaggerated, but I thought some might think so.
> >
> I haven't heard from anyone disputing my remarks about FES gliders, but I did hear from
> the owner of an FES glider, who also owns a very nice gas glider:
>
> "The FES system is almost as reliable as a bird flapping its wings.
> The need to read the manuals and follow limitations falls on a human.
> So battery care and weather element care might be forgotten maintenance by humans.
> The birds just need to find food and not become food.
> So FES is close to zero but not without fool-proof reliability."
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
They'll just make a better fool. It's like an arms race!

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 9:35:09 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
> If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> > > ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
> Anything more complex than a rock is probably never going to qualify as fool-proof, zero maintenance and ultra reliable.

It doesn't help that the department in charge of engineering fools has a better budget, no limits on overtime and a real aptitude for getting new models into production.

> It doesn't help that the department in charge of engineering fools has a better budget, no limits on overtime and a real aptitude for getting new models into production.

There is a finite amount of intelligence in the world, and the population is increasing rapidly. Do the math.

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 7:35:09 AM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:
> If those guys can screw up, how are we going to get fool-proof zero maintenance
> > > ultra reliable electric motor gliders??
> Anything more complex than a rock is probably never going to qualify as fool-proof, zero maintenance and ultra reliable.

Not sure rocks are fool proof. There's a reason you don't put two rock and a US Marine in a closed room....They will lose one and break the other. :)

John
US Marine Vet.

> Not sure rocks are fool proof. There's a reason you don't put two rock and a US Marine in a closed room....They will lose one and break the other. :)

Perhaps Marines were not envisioned at the time fools were originally created.

Not a Marine, but grateful they exist.

Also grateful I am not a Marine quartermaster, although job security is guaranteed.