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tech / rec.aviation.soaring / How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

SubjectAuthor
* How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsJ6 aka Airport Bum
+* Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsJ6 aka Airport Bum
|+- Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsJohn Galloway
|+- Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsDan Marotta
|+- Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsyoungbl...@gmail.com
|`* Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsEric Greenwell
| `- Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsMichael N.
+* Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsHank Nixon
|`- Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsHartley Falbaum
`* Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vsDave Nadler
 `- Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs2G

1
How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
From: juliet...@gmail.com (J6 aka Airport Bum)
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 by: J6 aka Airport Bum - Sun, 1 May 2022 16:48 UTC

I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.

It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope..

So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.

I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.

Cheers,
Jim J6

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
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 by: J6 aka Airport Bum - Sun, 1 May 2022 16:49 UTC

Pilot: Jim J6, AKA “Airport Bum”

Pure glider experience: A little over 1000 hours total in pure gliders, 700+ of this XC (badges, competition). Mostly in ASW-20, spread over 40+ years (some time off here and there for career reasons). About 25 or so off-airport landings, with no damage or incidents (knock on wood). Silver/Gold/Diamond, all in pure gliders, got all the Diamonds south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-line and east-of-the-Mississippi (woohoo!). Flew that banner day in 1985 where a half dozen of us flew the first FAI 500k triangles ever done in Georgia (so much fun!).

Motorglider experience: Acquired an ASH-26E in 2016, since then a little over 500 hours in motorglider, almost all XC (expeditions/camps, competition). Around half a dozen “self-retrieves”, e.g. engine starts during an XC flight to end the soaring portion on course away from the home airport. No failures to start in-flight (yet).

Flying style: I think conservative, safety and fun first and foremost. Main focus is camp/expedition flying, small groups exploring remote soaring arenas primarily in the western USA, utilizing the freedom from towplanes offered by self-launch motorized gliders. Also competition (but mostly for the socializing I must admit).

How has my soaring XC flight planning/conduct changed with motorgliding:

Basic philosophy: “Treat every successful in-flight engine start as a pleasant surprise.”

Therefore, there is hardly any difference in my in-flight behaviors as far as staying in gliding distance (with margin!) of high-confidence landable fields. The start-engine button is NOT there to get me out of a jam nor is it a guaranteed get-home-free pass. EVERY time I get low, I follow the same “altitude funnel” approach I took in pure gliders, progressively homing in on my landable field as I attempt to scratch out of hole. My mindset is that if I don’t scratch out of the hole I am in, I am landing, that is until I am pleasantly surprised by an engine start.

As far as pre-flight planning, again for me hardly any difference motorgliding vs pure. There is always a basic plan for me to be trackable (including if I have to jump out, e.g. InReach in a SMAK Pack on my chute), and for someone to come get me if (actually, when) my get-home engine start fails and I land out. This is usually an understanding with my other self-launch buddies (I always fly XC with a buddy, at least someone flying out of the same airport and in the same general soaring arena, or with knowledge of my plans and actively tracking me and available for retrieve).

There are some detail differences:

My motorglider is more challenging to dig out when low and in weak lift, wind, etc. because it is HEAVY (wing loading/climb performance) and BIG (not as maneuverable). Heavy because of the engine etc., e.g. my wing loading is about 9.2 lb per sq ft vs 7.6 with my ASW-20. There have been a few instances where I “landed out” (get-home engine start) on weak competition days when my pure glider buddies dumped their water ballast and climbed out in the weak stuff that couldn’t keep me up. I accept this as the price to pay for the self-retrieve and self-launch convenience. This adds an additional conservative factor to my flying.

But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields. And regarding my “hard deck” for stopping soaring and committing to landing (or get-home engine start, treated as a pleasant surprise of course!), I have ended up at 1200 ft AGL on downwind, about twice as high as I was willing to go with my pure glider ASW-20. I actually worked my motorglider hard deck down to 800 ft on downwind at one point, but then I experienced just how little margin this gave me if there is ANY delay or interruption in the engine start procedure. Bumped it back up to 1200 ft, to keep my heart rate down to reasonable levels!!!!! BTW, I am fully ready to land off-airport with my engine/prop stuck/failed fully extended, I have done several training landings in this configuration, and I know how the aircraft behaves (quite well, really).

Another idea here: If things get hairy, and I am set up to land at an airport that I could self-launch out of, I will strongly consider just landing without even attempting an in-air start. Just land, meet the locals (almost always a pleasure), and then self-launch to head home! I haven’t done this yet, but it is definitely in my mind if I end up in a stressful situation and want to skip a start attempt.

Another very important subtlety: Note that when flying the high country (example: the Rockies west of Denver and east of Grand Junction) the engine is little more than ballast, because when at peak and pass altitudes you are up where the under-power climb rates are pitiful or non-existent. You probably cannot motor home unless you are in the valleys that feed to your home airport. So you better have landable fields available. So, just like a pure glider…..

The final difference for me is simply the freedom to explore that the motorglider offers. I haven’t used this very much yet (except the ability to fly sites which don’t have towplanes, I use that a lot on my annual western soaring safaris). But Eric is my hero in this regard, he does it well. The idea is to use the motor if necessary to extend the soaring day and/or reach that very-interesting soaring area which would be otherwise inaccessible. No claim that this is “pure soaring”, but it sure looks to me like great fun. An example: Apparently there is someone flying a Pippensomething (very cool touring motorgliders in my opinion) in Florida who motors to the good soaring, soars, and then motors back home. And I know others who do similar with other touring motorgliders, having great fun doing so. Kudos! Nobody I know of represents these a “pure” soaring, but they are having fun it looks like. My philosophy, just get out there and have fun, with the freedom that your particular machine offers you!

One final consideration: Once I have been pleasantly surprised by an engine start, I STILL fly it like a glider. I won’t leave the safety of being in a “funnel” to a landable field even when under power. My engine when running is a “ticking time bomb” on its way to premature shutdown, as far as I am concerned.

I have sincerely tried to analyze motorglider operations in an attempt to enhance my safety and enjoyment. I hope these ideas can be useful to others.. So there we go, open for polite and positive comments, especially if someone sees a non-conservative or less-than-safe aspect to my approach. Lots to learn here I am sure.

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:48:42 AM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
From: jpg...@gmail.com (John Galloway)
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 by: John Galloway - Sun, 1 May 2022 17:05 UTC

On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 17:49:56 UTC+1, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> Pilot: Jim J6, AKA “Airport Bum”
>
> Pure glider experience: A little over 1000 hours total in pure gliders, 700+ of this XC (badges, competition). Mostly in ASW-20, spread over 40+ years (some time off here and there for career reasons). About 25 or so off-airport landings, with no damage or incidents (knock on wood). Silver/Gold/Diamond, all in pure gliders, got all the Diamonds south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-line and east-of-the-Mississippi (woohoo!). Flew that banner day in 1985 where a half dozen of us flew the first FAI 500k triangles ever done in Georgia (so much fun!).
>
> Motorglider experience: Acquired an ASH-26E in 2016, since then a little over 500 hours in motorglider, almost all XC (expeditions/camps, competition). Around half a dozen “self-retrieves”, e.g. engine starts during an XC flight to end the soaring portion on course away from the home airport. No failures to start in-flight (yet).
>
> Flying style: I think conservative, safety and fun first and foremost. Main focus is camp/expedition flying, small groups exploring remote soaring arenas primarily in the western USA, utilizing the freedom from towplanes offered by self-launch motorized gliders. Also competition (but mostly for the socializing I must admit).
>
> How has my soaring XC flight planning/conduct changed with motorgliding:
>
> Basic philosophy: “Treat every successful in-flight engine start as a pleasant surprise.”
>
> Therefore, there is hardly any difference in my in-flight behaviors as far as staying in gliding distance (with margin!) of high-confidence landable fields. The start-engine button is NOT there to get me out of a jam nor is it a guaranteed get-home-free pass. EVERY time I get low, I follow the same “altitude funnel” approach I took in pure gliders, progressively homing in on my landable field as I attempt to scratch out of hole. My mindset is that if I don’t scratch out of the hole I am in, I am landing, that is until I am pleasantly surprised by an engine start.
>
> As far as pre-flight planning, again for me hardly any difference motorgliding vs pure. There is always a basic plan for me to be trackable (including if I have to jump out, e.g. InReach in a SMAK Pack on my chute), and for someone to come get me if (actually, when) my get-home engine start fails and I land out. This is usually an understanding with my other self-launch buddies (I always fly XC with a buddy, at least someone flying out of the same airport and in the same general soaring arena, or with knowledge of my plans and actively tracking me and available for retrieve).
>
> There are some detail differences:
>
> My motorglider is more challenging to dig out when low and in weak lift, wind, etc. because it is HEAVY (wing loading/climb performance) and BIG (not as maneuverable). Heavy because of the engine etc., e.g. my wing loading is about 9.2 lb per sq ft vs 7.6 with my ASW-20. There have been a few instances where I “landed out” (get-home engine start) on weak competition days when my pure glider buddies dumped their water ballast and climbed out in the weak stuff that couldn’t keep me up. I accept this as the price to pay for the self-retrieve and self-launch convenience. This adds an additional conservative factor to my flying.
>
> But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields. And regarding my “hard deck” for stopping soaring and committing to landing (or get-home engine start, treated as a pleasant surprise of course!), I have ended up at 1200 ft AGL on downwind, about twice as high as I was willing to go with my pure glider ASW-20. I actually worked my motorglider hard deck down to 800 ft on downwind at one point, but then I experienced just how little margin this gave me if there is ANY delay or interruption in the engine start procedure. Bumped it back up to 1200 ft, to keep my heart rate down to reasonable levels!!!!! BTW, I am fully ready to land off-airport with my engine/prop stuck/failed fully extended, I have done several training landings in this configuration, and I know how the aircraft behaves (quite well, really).
>
> Another idea here: If things get hairy, and I am set up to land at an airport that I could self-launch out of, I will strongly consider just landing without even attempting an in-air start. Just land, meet the locals (almost always a pleasure), and then self-launch to head home! I haven’t done this yet, but it is definitely in my mind if I end up in a stressful situation and want to skip a start attempt.
>
> Another very important subtlety: Note that when flying the high country (example: the Rockies west of Denver and east of Grand Junction) the engine is little more than ballast, because when at peak and pass altitudes you are up where the under-power climb rates are pitiful or non-existent. You probably cannot motor home unless you are in the valleys that feed to your home airport. So you better have landable fields available. So, just like a pure glider…..
>
> The final difference for me is simply the freedom to explore that the motorglider offers. I haven’t used this very much yet (except the ability to fly sites which don’t have towplanes, I use that a lot on my annual western soaring safaris). But Eric is my hero in this regard, he does it well. The idea is to use the motor if necessary to extend the soaring day and/or reach that very-interesting soaring area which would be otherwise inaccessible. No claim that this is “pure soaring”, but it sure looks to me like great fun. An example: Apparently there is someone flying a Pippensomething (very cool touring motorgliders in my opinion) in Florida who motors to the good soaring, soars, and then motors back home. And I know others who do similar with other touring motorgliders, having great fun doing so. Kudos! Nobody I know of represents these a “pure” soaring, but they are having fun it looks like. My philosophy, just get out there and have fun, with the freedom that your particular machine offers you!
>
> One final consideration: Once I have been pleasantly surprised by an engine start, I STILL fly it like a glider. I won’t leave the safety of being in a “funnel” to a landable field even when under power. My engine when running is a “ticking time bomb” on its way to premature shutdown, as far as I am concerned.
>
> I have sincerely tried to analyze motorglider operations in an attempt to enhance my safety and enjoyment. I hope these ideas can be useful to others. So there we go, open for polite and positive comments, especially if someone sees a non-conservative or less-than-safe aspect to my approach. Lots to learn here I am sure.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:48:42 AM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"

An engine allows you to fly an XC task on days when you want to be pretty sure that you will get home in good time of if you have no or limited retrieve possibilities. Other than that we shouldn't be planning a task in a motor glider that we wouldn't plan in an un-motorised glider.

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
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 by: Dan Marotta - Sun, 1 May 2022 21:30 UTC

Hi Jim,
I've been flying gliders since around 1987 and have all my diamonds, all
west of the Mississippi since that's where I live. I can't recall
flying a glider east of that river.
Anyway, after getting my license, I quickly learned that waiting around
for club ships and being limited to an hour or so were not what I wanted
to do so I bought a Mosquito. I flew it for a year or two, don't know
how many hours without opening my logbooks and one day, on a safari to
Marfa, TX, met a guy with an ASW-19b that he'd just restored to like new
condition.
I loved it and he loved my dog-eared Mosquito so we swapped one day for
a flight. While thermaling together we decided to swap even up and,
after landing we rummaged through our respective stuff and determined
that we had one Aircraft Bill of Sale between the two of us.
I won the coin toss and got a bill of sale for the -19 and I wrote him a
bill of sale on the back of an envelope with the promise to execute a
proper bill of sale upon my return to Dallas. I think I flew the -19
more than the Mosquito (log books again) and, when I moved to Colorado,
the -19 came along.
After a couple of years I partnered with a local and we bought an LS-6a
(actually the 1985 or 86) world champion. It had been fatally crashed
by its current owner and repaired by a well-known German who came to the
US to do the work. Due to a crash (not me) I found another partner who
also had an LS-6 and that was good times again!
Work took me to Syracuse, NY but, before moving to NY, I made three
safaris out of Black Forest: The first two were in our LS-6 and were
done by ground launch. We took a 1,000' rope and the glider trailer and
took turns ground launching and flying straight out around CO, NM, UT,
and back to Colorado. At the end of each flying day we would get a room
for the night and repeat the process each day. The final safari was
done using a friend's ASW-24e and using its anemic sustainer to take
off. Again, we took turns and traveled around the southwest.
Back in the west, Moriarty, NM, I borrowed a Mosquito in exchange for
repairing a snow-load damaged trailer. Following that I bought a
LAK-17a and really enjoyed NM thermals and wave and made a several
safaris, Salida, CO, Minden, NV, Bishop, CA.
Then my wife took a ride with me in a borrowed 2-seater and fell in love
with soaring. So, naturally, the LAK-17a had to go and we got a Stemme
and, in the 6 years I've owned it, I've flown it something over 900 hours.
Since I fly the Stemme as a pure glider (except for takeoff) I always
fly with a landable field within gliding distance. Whereas the Stemme
is capable of landing on unimproved fields, it is NOT capable of taking
off in the same fields without risk of damage. With that in mind,
landable fields are, to me, paved airports, nothing less. The Stemme
does not have a tow hook and I don't have a trailer so it's airports only.
My engine has never failed to start but I never rely on it to push my
limits. It never runs more than 10-15 minutes during takeoff unless I'm
ferrying it for maintenance or to fly locally at some other location,
but I'm finished with safaris since there's always a weather component
to long cross country trips that trailered gliders don't experience,
like being at 17,900' MSL with cloud tops rising and no holes to get
down and ATC declining higher altitude.
I have a friend at Moriarty who told me that the best vacation of his
life was when he took his Grob-109 on a north-south border to border
camping trip. How could you beat that?
Dan
5J
On 5/1/22 10:49, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> Pilot: Jim J6, AKA “Airport Bum”
>
> Pure glider experience: A little over 1000 hours total in pure gliders, 700+ of this XC (badges, competition). Mostly in ASW-20, spread over 40+ years (some time off here and there for career reasons). About 25 or so off-airport landings, with no damage or incidents (knock on wood). Silver/Gold/Diamond, all in pure gliders, got all the Diamonds south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-line and east-of-the-Mississippi (woohoo!). Flew that banner day in 1985 where a half dozen of us flew the first FAI 500k triangles ever done in Georgia (so much fun!).
>
> Motorglider experience: Acquired an ASH-26E in 2016, since then a little over 500 hours in motorglider, almost all XC (expeditions/camps, competition). Around half a dozen “self-retrieves”, e.g. engine starts during an XC flight to end the soaring portion on course away from the home airport. No failures to start in-flight (yet).
>
> Flying style: I think conservative, safety and fun first and foremost. Main focus is camp/expedition flying, small groups exploring remote soaring arenas primarily in the western USA, utilizing the freedom from towplanes offered by self-launch motorized gliders. Also competition (but mostly for the socializing I must admit).
>
> How has my soaring XC flight planning/conduct changed with motorgliding:
>
> Basic philosophy: “Treat every successful in-flight engine start as a pleasant surprise.”
>
> Therefore, there is hardly any difference in my in-flight behaviors as far as staying in gliding distance (with margin!) of high-confidence landable fields. The start-engine button is NOT there to get me out of a jam nor is it a guaranteed get-home-free pass. EVERY time I get low, I follow the same “altitude funnel” approach I took in pure gliders, progressively homing in on my landable field as I attempt to scratch out of hole. My mindset is that if I don’t scratch out of the hole I am in, I am landing, that is until I am pleasantly surprised by an engine start.
>
> As far as pre-flight planning, again for me hardly any difference motorgliding vs pure. There is always a basic plan for me to be trackable (including if I have to jump out, e.g. InReach in a SMAK Pack on my chute), and for someone to come get me if (actually, when) my get-home engine start fails and I land out. This is usually an understanding with my other self-launch buddies (I always fly XC with a buddy, at least someone flying out of the same airport and in the same general soaring arena, or with knowledge of my plans and actively tracking me and available for retrieve).
>
> There are some detail differences:
>
> My motorglider is more challenging to dig out when low and in weak lift, wind, etc. because it is HEAVY (wing loading/climb performance) and BIG (not as maneuverable). Heavy because of the engine etc., e.g. my wing loading is about 9.2 lb per sq ft vs 7.6 with my ASW-20. There have been a few instances where I “landed out” (get-home engine start) on weak competition days when my pure glider buddies dumped their water ballast and climbed out in the weak stuff that couldn’t keep me up. I accept this as the price to pay for the self-retrieve and self-launch convenience. This adds an additional conservative factor to my flying.
>
> But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields. And regarding my “hard deck” for stopping soaring and committing to landing (or get-home engine start, treated as a pleasant surprise of course!), I have ended up at 1200 ft AGL on downwind, about twice as high as I was willing to go with my pure glider ASW-20. I actually worked my motorglider hard deck down to 800 ft on downwind at one point, but then I experienced just how little margin this gave me if there is ANY delay or interruption in the engine start procedure. Bumped it back up to 1200 ft, to keep my heart rate down to reasonable levels!!!!! BTW, I am fully ready to land off-airport with my engine/prop stuck/failed fully extended, I have done several training landings in this configuration, and I know how the aircraft behaves (quite well, really).
>
> Another idea here: If things get hairy, and I am set up to land at an airport that I could self-launch out of, I will strongly consider just landing without even attempting an in-air start. Just land, meet the locals (almost always a pleasure), and then self-launch to head home! I haven’t done this yet, but it is definitely in my mind if I end up in a stressful situation and want to skip a start attempt.
>
> Another very important subtlety: Note that when flying the high country (example: the Rockies west of Denver and east of Grand Junction) the engine is little more than ballast, because when at peak and pass altitudes you are up where the under-power climb rates are pitiful or non-existent. You probably cannot motor home unless you are in the valleys that feed to your home airport. So you better have landable fields available. So, just like a pure glider…..
>
> The final difference for me is simply the freedom to explore that the motorglider offers. I haven’t used this very much yet (except the ability to fly sites which don’t have towplanes, I use that a lot on my annual western soaring safaris). But Eric is my hero in this regard, he does it well. The idea is to use the motor if necessary to extend the soaring day and/or reach that very-interesting soaring area which would be otherwise inaccessible. No claim that this is “pure soaring”, but it sure looks to me like great fun. An example: Apparently there is someone flying a Pippensomething (very cool touring motorgliders in my opinion) in Florida who motors to the good soaring, soars, and then motors back home. And I know others who do similar with other touring motorgliders, having great fun doing so. Kudos! Nobody I know of represents these a “pure” soaring, but they are having fun it looks like. My philosophy, just get out there and have fun, with the freedom that your particular machine offers you!
>
> One final consideration: Once I have been pleasantly surprised by an engine start, I STILL fly it like a glider. I won’t leave the safety of being in a “funnel” to a landable field even when under power. My engine when running is a “ticking time bomb” on its way to premature shutdown, as far as I am concerned.
>
> I have sincerely tried to analyze motorglider operations in an attempt to enhance my safety and enjoyment. I hope these ideas can be useful to others. So there we go, open for polite and positive comments, especially if someone sees a non-conservative or less-than-safe aspect to my approach. Lots to learn here I am sure.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6
>
>
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:48:42 AM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
>> I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"


Click here to read the complete article
Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Sun, 1 May 2022 21:45 UTC

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:49:56 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> Pilot: Jim J6, AKA “Airport Bum”
>
> Pure glider experience: A little over 1000 hours total in pure gliders, 700+ of this XC (badges, competition). Mostly in ASW-20, spread over 40+ years (some time off here and there for career reasons). About 25 or so off-airport landings, with no damage or incidents (knock on wood). Silver/Gold/Diamond, all in pure gliders, got all the Diamonds south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-line and east-of-the-Mississippi (woohoo!). Flew that banner day in 1985 where a half dozen of us flew the first FAI 500k triangles ever done in Georgia (so much fun!).
>
> Motorglider experience: Acquired an ASH-26E in 2016, since then a little over 500 hours in motorglider, almost all XC (expeditions/camps, competition). Around half a dozen “self-retrieves”, e.g. engine starts during an XC flight to end the soaring portion on course away from the home airport. No failures to start in-flight (yet).
>
> Flying style: I think conservative, safety and fun first and foremost. Main focus is camp/expedition flying, small groups exploring remote soaring arenas primarily in the western USA, utilizing the freedom from towplanes offered by self-launch motorized gliders. Also competition (but mostly for the socializing I must admit).
>
> How has my soaring XC flight planning/conduct changed with motorgliding:
>
> Basic philosophy: “Treat every successful in-flight engine start as a pleasant surprise.”
>
> Therefore, there is hardly any difference in my in-flight behaviors as far as staying in gliding distance (with margin!) of high-confidence landable fields. The start-engine button is NOT there to get me out of a jam nor is it a guaranteed get-home-free pass. EVERY time I get low, I follow the same “altitude funnel” approach I took in pure gliders, progressively homing in on my landable field as I attempt to scratch out of hole. My mindset is that if I don’t scratch out of the hole I am in, I am landing, that is until I am pleasantly surprised by an engine start.
>
> As far as pre-flight planning, again for me hardly any difference motorgliding vs pure. There is always a basic plan for me to be trackable (including if I have to jump out, e.g. InReach in a SMAK Pack on my chute), and for someone to come get me if (actually, when) my get-home engine start fails and I land out. This is usually an understanding with my other self-launch buddies (I always fly XC with a buddy, at least someone flying out of the same airport and in the same general soaring arena, or with knowledge of my plans and actively tracking me and available for retrieve).
>
> There are some detail differences:
>
> My motorglider is more challenging to dig out when low and in weak lift, wind, etc. because it is HEAVY (wing loading/climb performance) and BIG (not as maneuverable). Heavy because of the engine etc., e.g. my wing loading is about 9.2 lb per sq ft vs 7.6 with my ASW-20. There have been a few instances where I “landed out” (get-home engine start) on weak competition days when my pure glider buddies dumped their water ballast and climbed out in the weak stuff that couldn’t keep me up. I accept this as the price to pay for the self-retrieve and self-launch convenience. This adds an additional conservative factor to my flying.
>
> But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields. And regarding my “hard deck” for stopping soaring and committing to landing (or get-home engine start, treated as a pleasant surprise of course!), I have ended up at 1200 ft AGL on downwind, about twice as high as I was willing to go with my pure glider ASW-20. I actually worked my motorglider hard deck down to 800 ft on downwind at one point, but then I experienced just how little margin this gave me if there is ANY delay or interruption in the engine start procedure. Bumped it back up to 1200 ft, to keep my heart rate down to reasonable levels!!!!! BTW, I am fully ready to land off-airport with my engine/prop stuck/failed fully extended, I have done several training landings in this configuration, and I know how the aircraft behaves (quite well, really).
>
> Another idea here: If things get hairy, and I am set up to land at an airport that I could self-launch out of, I will strongly consider just landing without even attempting an in-air start. Just land, meet the locals (almost always a pleasure), and then self-launch to head home! I haven’t done this yet, but it is definitely in my mind if I end up in a stressful situation and want to skip a start attempt.
>
> Another very important subtlety: Note that when flying the high country (example: the Rockies west of Denver and east of Grand Junction) the engine is little more than ballast, because when at peak and pass altitudes you are up where the under-power climb rates are pitiful or non-existent. You probably cannot motor home unless you are in the valleys that feed to your home airport. So you better have landable fields available. So, just like a pure glider…..
>
> The final difference for me is simply the freedom to explore that the motorglider offers. I haven’t used this very much yet (except the ability to fly sites which don’t have towplanes, I use that a lot on my annual western soaring safaris). But Eric is my hero in this regard, he does it well. The idea is to use the motor if necessary to extend the soaring day and/or reach that very-interesting soaring area which would be otherwise inaccessible. No claim that this is “pure soaring”, but it sure looks to me like great fun. An example: Apparently there is someone flying a Pippensomething (very cool touring motorgliders in my opinion) in Florida who motors to the good soaring, soars, and then motors back home. And I know others who do similar with other touring motorgliders, having great fun doing so. Kudos! Nobody I know of represents these a “pure” soaring, but they are having fun it looks like. My philosophy, just get out there and have fun, with the freedom that your particular machine offers you!
>
> One final consideration: Once I have been pleasantly surprised by an engine start, I STILL fly it like a glider. I won’t leave the safety of being in a “funnel” to a landable field even when under power. My engine when running is a “ticking time bomb” on its way to premature shutdown, as far as I am concerned.
>
> I have sincerely tried to analyze motorglider operations in an attempt to enhance my safety and enjoyment. I hope these ideas can be useful to others. So there we go, open for polite and positive comments, especially if someone sees a non-conservative or less-than-safe aspect to my approach. Lots to learn here I am sure.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:48:42 AM UTC-5, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"
No offense "Bum", but I find reading Faulkners , "The Bear" much more interesting even with his void of punctuation. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
From: unclh...@earthlink.net (Hank Nixon)
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 by: Hank Nixon - Sun, 1 May 2022 22:27 UTC

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:48:42 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"
>
> So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.
>
> It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope..
>
> So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.
>
> I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

The only difference for me is that i can fly some days I otherwise could not fly because I don't need a tow. I tow or instruct on weekends and never fly my ships then, but I have the option to launch myself on a Wednesday and go soaring.
I do not fly any differently with or without the power system.
UH

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
From: hfalb...@comcast.net (Hartley Falbaum)
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 by: Hartley Falbaum - Mon, 2 May 2022 13:13 UTC

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:27:20 PM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:48:42 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"
> >
> > So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.
> >
> > It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.
> >
> > So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.
> >
> > I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6
> The only difference for me is that i can fly some days I otherwise could not fly because I don't need a tow. I tow or instruct on weekends and never fly my ships then, but I have the option to launch myself on a Wednesday and go soaring.
> I do not fly any differently with or without the power system.
> UH
What Jim and Hank said! About 1200 hr in a ASW20, than a '27. About 15 non-airport landings.Then about 600 in 2 different DG8xx. The first DG800B caused a landout on my first self launched flight!
Taught a cheap lesson on putting faith in the motor. A later flight, in a contest, led to a "strategic" airport landing, claim the airport bonus, then launch and motor home. But 2 attempts at takeoff were aborted due failure to reach full power! My second DG, a 808C Competition, can go from initiating the sequence to climb power in about 15 sec with a loss of height of 75 ft. My non-ballasted, full fuel wing loading is 8.4 lb/sq ft. I can ballast to 10.4 lb/sq ft. So, about the same wing loading as my '27. I really don't plan or do anything I wouldn't have done in the '20 or '27. I am a bit more cautious as a failed engine start means a nearly immediate landing. Landing with engine extended is pretty much a no brainer--The '808 becomes a bad K21

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 by: Eric Greenwell - Mon, 2 May 2022 14:10 UTC

On 5/1/2022 9:49 AM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

> But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields.

My experience and concern is identical to Jim's: My ASW20C was significantly easier to
land in a field. There is another issue: the weight of the motorglider makes it harder to
retrieve. The fuselage on my ASH26E weighs 500 lbs, far more than the fuselage on the
ASW20C, so getting it out of a farmer's field could be very difficult. As result, I
strongly favor doing a restart over an airport. This factor, along with the higher minimum
wing loading, means I don't "save" as many flights as I used to.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
From: mikell...@gmail.com (Michael N.)
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 by: Michael N. - Mon, 2 May 2022 18:23 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 10:10:33 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 5/1/2022 9:49 AM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
>
> > But the biggest difference is increased conservatism in my off-field landing choices and my “hard deck” discipline. My big heavy self-launcher lands with significantly more energy than my pure glider, so my off-airport field choices are more limited. I cannot land as short or as slow as I could in my pure glider ASW-20. So I stick with bigger fields.
> My experience and concern is identical to Jim's: My ASW20C was significantly easier to
> land in a field. There is another issue: the weight of the motorglider makes it harder to
> retrieve. The fuselage on my ASH26E weighs 500 lbs, far more than the fuselage on the
> ASW20C, so getting it out of a farmer's field could be very difficult. As result, I
> strongly favor doing a restart over an airport. This factor, along with the higher minimum
> wing loading, means I don't "save" as many flights as I used to.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

I have not tried it yet, but my Ventus cT manual gives excellent directions on how to remove the engine thus dropping that ballast.
Seems it was designed to be relatively easy to remove the engine and re-install. Again, I have not actually tried it but I know others that have.
Mike N.

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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From: drn...@nadler.com (Dave Nadler)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 15:29:07 -0400
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 by: Dave Nadler - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:29 UTC

On 5/1/2022 12:48 PM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"
>
> So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.
>
> It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.
>
> So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.
>
> I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

As Jim knows, decision height for attempting a motor start is a lot
higher than landing decision height for a pure glider. In last R5N
contest during weak stretches, twice I detoured to position where I
could turn to final at a larger airport and attempt an air-start (where
in a pure glider I would have stuck to the course line), and both times
I climbed out. A failed air-start would have been easy straight-ahead
landing.

I will try to finish that article in the next week or two, at least put
out a public draft...

See ya, Dave "YO" (>2500 hours in motor-gliders, gas and electric).

Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?

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Subject: Re: How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs
Pure glider?
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (2G)
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 by: 2G - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:38 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 12:29:15 PM UTC-7, d...@nadler.com wrote:
> On 5/1/2022 12:48 PM, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > I noted an interesting subject coming up in an otherwise non-productive post on this group, "How does soaring XC flight planning/conduct differ Motorglider vs Pure glider?"
> >
> > So, in the interest of generating positive and educational discussion on this subject, I am opening this new conversation. I would like to make this a "judgement free zone", by which I mean let's just hear about how soaring XC flight planning and conduct have changed now that you are flying a motorglider vs a pure glider, and perhaps some polite non-judgemental discussion on our fellow motorglider pilot's posts.
> >
> > It is relevant to understand the commenter's pure vs motorglider experience in regard to this question, I believe, so let's start each post with a little on that about yourself. The vast majority of the current motorglider pilot population has had extensive pure glider experience before taking up the motorglider I think, so my expectation is that there will be lots of productive comparison insights and tips gained here. At least that is my hope.
> >
> > So, motorglider pilots, please offer up your experience and ideas on this subject, I'll bet we'll all learn some useful things. Remember, "judgement free" please. If a post states something that you would like to challenge for any reason (less-than-safe, factually incorrect, etc.) please be polite and non-confrontational in your reply.
> >
> > I'll go first, with the next post to this conversation. I will document my experience probably in more detail than required, just to kick things off with ideas on how you might describe your relevant experience levels. Don't feel compelled to write up as much detail, we primarily want your insights, ideas, and tips.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6
> As Jim knows, decision height for attempting a motor start is a lot
> higher than landing decision height for a pure glider. In last R5N
> contest during weak stretches, twice I detoured to position where I
> could turn to final at a larger airport and attempt an air-start (where
> in a pure glider I would have stuck to the course line), and both times
> I climbed out. A failed air-start would have been easy straight-ahead
> landing.
>
> I will try to finish that article in the next week or two, at least put
> out a public draft...
>
> See ya, Dave "YO" (>2500 hours in motor-gliders, gas and electric).

I concur with all that has been said here, but will add one more thing: when planning a flight I know when I can launch vs waiting in a launch line that might be up to two hours long. It is impossible to do a long flight if your launch is delayed by as little as 30 minutes.

Tom

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