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tech / rec.aviation.soaring / Re: It Gets Worse

SubjectAuthor
* It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
`* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 | `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |  +- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |  `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |   `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |    `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |     `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      +- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      +* Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      | +* Re: It Gets WorseJay Campbell
 |      | |`* Re: It Gets Worsejohn firth
 |      | | `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      | `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |      |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |+* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      ||+* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||+* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      ||||`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||| `- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||`* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| +* Re: It Gets WorseBob W.
 |      ||| |+- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      ||| | `- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||  `* Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   +* Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||   | `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||   |  +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||   |  |`- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |||   |  `- Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      ||`* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      || `* Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      ||  `- Re: It Gets WorseRR
 |      |`* Re: It Gets Worsekinsell
 |      | `- Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |      `* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       |+* Re: It Gets WorseJ6 aka Airport Bum
 |       ||`* Re: It Gets WorseNicholas Kennedy
 |       || +* Re: It Gets WorseDarren Braun
 |       || |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || | +- Re: It Gets WorseDarren Braun
 |       || | `* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       || |  `- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || +* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || |`- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       || +- Re: It Gets WorseDoug Levy
 |       || `* Re: It Gets WorseJ6 aka Airport Bum
 |       ||  +* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||  |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||  | `* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||  |  `* Re: It Gets Worsebpattonsoa@yahoo.com
 |       ||  |   `- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||  `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||   `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||    `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||     +* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||     |`- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||     `* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||      `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |`- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsewaltco...@aol.com
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worserichard wilkening
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseTom Des
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |`* Re: It Gets WorseR
 |       ||       | `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||       |  `* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |   `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       `- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       |`* Re: It Gets WorseDennis
 |       `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com

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Re: It Gets Worse

<t4p0jm$7pd$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=26654&group=rec.aviation.soaring#26654

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From: dcmaro...@earthlink.net (Dan Marotta)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 10:24:22 -0600
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 by: Dan Marotta - Mon, 2 May 2022 16:24 UTC

Jeez... I hate to take the other side, Bob, but... If you're gonna be
like Al Gore and talk about carbon, then what about your Pawnee? IIRC
from my towing days, a 235 hp Pawnee burns, what, 16 gph at takeoff? My
Stemme burns 5 or 6 during takeoff and climb and, if I want to cruise
6-700 miles to find better lift, it burns about 3.2 gph. AND it burns
car gas.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 00:05, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
>> Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?
>>
>> Ramy (just trying to help)
>> Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing, what a great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.
> On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less than 200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.
> Yep Ramy, some of these guys take this stuff way too serious, I seem to bring out the best in these motorglider pilots, my mailbox will be full of hate mail once again. Old Bob, The Purist
>> P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>>> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
>>>>>> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
>>>>>> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
>>>>>> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
>>>>>> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
>>>>>> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
>>>>>> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
>>>>>> of those.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>>>> Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>> Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
>>>> last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
>>>> planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
>>>> some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
>>>> motor much more frequently.
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>> Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
>>> You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
>>> what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
>>> So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
>>> I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

<t4p15p$ct1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dcmaro...@earthlink.net (Dan Marotta)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 10:34:01 -0600
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 by: Dan Marotta - Mon, 2 May 2022 16:34 UTC

Where did that electricity come from, Eric? Coal burning, most likely,
or oil fired turbines. Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil
does not make your motor "emissions free".

I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather
than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere. Huh...
Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort probably
contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 07:36, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Good News! There is a good solution both the engine life and carbon
> issues: electric self-launchers! But beware the electrophobes (you know
> who they are)...

Re: It Gets Worse

<t4p35j$f6j$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: rfwhe...@greeleynet.com (Bob W.)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 11:08:01 -0600
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 by: Bob W. - Mon, 2 May 2022 17:08 UTC

On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most likely,
> or oil fired turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil
> does not make your motor "emissions free".
>
> I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather
> than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.  Huh...
> Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort probably
> contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.
Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise
mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that
'obviously' goes without saying..."

And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type,
howziss for thread hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those intolerant
killjoys out there in RAS-land, please note a quick skim of the
article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned - no, really!)

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/

Re: It Gets Worse

<t4p3ng$olm$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 10:17:36 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Mon, 2 May 2022 17:17 UTC

Where it comes from depends very much on where you are. In the Pacific NW, where I live in
Washington State, it's about 80% from dams, windmills, and solar panels; some areas near
the East coast, it's probably mostly oil and coal.

The conversion efficiency for electric motors run by lithium batteries is very high, over
90%. Compare that to a gasoline fueled engine, which converts about 30% of the energy in
gasoline to power. So, it's almost always less pollution to change the oil, coal, and
natural gas to electricity at an utility, and use the electricity to run electric vehicles.

On 5/2/2022 9:34 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most likely, or oil fired
> turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil does not make your motor
> "emissions free".
>
> I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather than smugly
> stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.  Huh... Considering conversion losses
> electric vehicles of any sort probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 5/2/22 07:36, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Good News! There is a good solution both the engine life and carbon issues: electric
>> self-launchers! But beware the electrophobes (you know who they are)...

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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 by: Michael N. - Mon, 2 May 2022 18:40 UTC

Will this never end....? :-P

Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.

I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )

I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....

Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Mon, 2 May 2022 18:45 UTC

On 5/2/2022 7:50 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 9:50:01 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 5/2/2022 6:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>> A few years ago, that restriction was removed, and the motorglider class was
>>> frozen - more record applications accepted. I don't recall the reasons for the changes.
>> That should be " - NO more record applications accepted".
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> Eric, you are making progress, not only does the motorglider make it more convenient to make certain flights and they do not have to be state records, but flights that require the purist to take a different approach to completing a goal flight or record flights, or even an enjoyable weekend flight compared to purist flight.

You missed the point: there are several things that make soaring more convenient. You know
this, as you work hard to achieve that convenience: readily available tows, good club
ships, and so on. Also, as I pointed out, money and job status are also important factors
contributing to convenience. Your obsessive concern that motorgliders are so special is
tunnel vision. Chill, and let us pursue all the conveniences that enable more people to do
more soaring.

I made reference in the initial start of this thread that the pure glider pilot plans
differently, most likely flies differently and therefore making the purist flight a
higher risk factor vs the motorglider. Last week three flights were made on the 26th here
in Florida and two of the flights were completed with motorgliders, the other a purist
flight, you tell me which one of those flights had the higher risk factor, a higher
failure factor, a greater land out factor, and a different approach toward accomplishing
the flight?
Your comments are becoming scary. How did you ever come to believe flying motorglider was
less risky than an unpowered glider? This is bad information, and there are no statistics
showing it is true. It's the PILOT, not the glider (powered or unpowered), that determines
the risk of a flight. A motorglider is a CONVENIENCE, not a SAFETY device. Please, please,
learn about motorgliders, then get 20 or flights in motorgliders, before offering
potentially dangerous opinions about their safety.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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From: mikell...@gmail.com (Michael N.)
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 by: Michael N. - Mon, 2 May 2022 18:45 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
> Will this never end....? :-P
>
> Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.
>
> I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )
>
> I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....
>
> Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.

Mike N. - 1M

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 by: 2G - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:20 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 11:40:17 AM UTC-7, mike...@gmail.com wrote:
> Will this never end....? :-P
>
> Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.
>
> I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )
>
> I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....
>
> Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....

Probably not. Not So Purist Bob keeps starting new threads beating the same dead horse (i.e. defaming motorgliders and their owners).

Tom

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 by: 2G - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:24 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 9:24:25 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Jeez... I hate to take the other side, Bob, but... If you're gonna be
> like Al Gore and talk about carbon, then what about your Pawnee? IIRC
> from my towing days, a 235 hp Pawnee burns, what, 16 gph at takeoff? My
> Stemme burns 5 or 6 during takeoff and climb and, if I want to cruise
> 6-700 miles to find better lift, it burns about 3.2 gph. AND it burns
> car gas.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/2/22 00:05, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:17:09 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> >> Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?
> >>
> >> Ramy (just trying to help)
> >> Ramy,I would love to have that kill switch on Motorgliders, one and done! The engine electronic ignition could be programmed to shut down after the initial launch and not start again until the landing sensor has been activated after the landing, what a great idea. What about the idea of if you start your sustainer you get no points on OLC for the day, and if you have a sustainer or self launch you are actually penalized for your flight.
> > On another note, I have stated in the past that I do understand the self launch aspect of this motorglider segment, who knows, maybe one day Old Bob may have a self launch, but not with one of the Solo engines that seems to have a lifespan of less than 200 hours, what a bargain! What about a carbon tax on motorgliders, make these MG pilots pay for pollution, a special environmental fund.
> > Yep Ramy, some of these guys take this stuff way too serious, I seem to bring out the best in these motorglider pilots, my mailbox will be full of hate mail once again. Old Bob, The Purist
> >> P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
> >> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>>>> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> >>>>>> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> >>>>>> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> >>>>>> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> >>>>>> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> >>>>>> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> >>>>>> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> >>>>>> of those.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >>>>> Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>> Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> >>>> last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> >>>> planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> >>>>
> >>>> By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> >>>> some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> >>>> motor much more frequently.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >>> Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks.. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> >>> You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> >>> what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> >>> So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
> >>> I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

I believe I have made this point before: a launch in my 31Mi takes about half a gallon while a Not So Purist Bob's launch takes 3-4 gallons, clearly MUCH more environmentally friendly. And don't even get me started on retrieves.

Tom

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: rickroe...@gmail.com (RR)
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 by: RR - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:44 UTC

It is now clear why Bob does not want his own "Magic Button". He has much more fun pushing 2G's button(s), and I think it makes more noise too!

RR

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From: dcmaro...@earthlink.net (Dan Marotta)
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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
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 by: Dan Marotta - Mon, 2 May 2022 19:50 UTC

Holy crap! I couldn't look away! But I did notice that the driver of
the bus parked directly behind got the heck out of Dodge. Oh, and I saw
the glider reference in the article.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 11:08, Bob W. wrote:
> On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most
>> likely, or oil fired turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal
>> or oil does not make your motor "emissions free".
>>
>> I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit
>> rather than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.
>> Huh... Considering conversion losses electric vehicles of any sort
>> probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.
> Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise
> mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that
> 'obviously' goes without saying..."
>
> And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type,
> howziss for thread hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those intolerant
> killjoys out there in RAS-land, please note a quick skim of the
> article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned - no, really!)
>
> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/
>

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Mon, 2 May 2022 21:46 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
> > Will this never end....? :-P
> >
> > Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.
> >
> > I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )
> >
> > I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....
> >
> > Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....
> P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.
>
> Mike N. - 1M
Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 15:52:51 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Mon, 2 May 2022 22:52 UTC

On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
>>> Will this never end....? :-P
>>>
>>> Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.
>>>
>>> I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )
>>>
>>> I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....
>>>
>>> Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....
>> P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.
>>
>> Mike N. - 1M
> Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist

If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
insulting people, but by inspiring them.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Mon, 2 May 2022 23:19 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
> >>> Will this never end....? :-P
> >>>
> >>> Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.
> >>>
> >>> I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )
> >>>
> >>> I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....
> >>>
> >>> Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....
> >> P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.
> >>
> >> Mike N. - 1M
> > Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
> the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
> flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
> refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
> people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
> an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
> insulting people, but by inspiring them.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Eric don't think that is old purist didn't have a role model or two, I have been a real lucky guy and have flown gliders with some great pilots, probably none you ever heard of, but they were really good. The best of the guys was a man named Bennie Flowers, who worked with Dr. August Raspet in the development of increased performance in sailplanes through advanced wing development. Bennie was years ahead of the times, his skills were sharp and his knowledge was extensive. As a young glider pilot Bennie took me under his wing and for years taught me things about flying gliders that most would never achieve. Bennie and I were flying well before this wonderful Latin gentleman named Alfonso arrived and after E9 got his feet on the ground we were flying almost daily for years, I was able to log more than 3000 hours in glass, so I guess that qualifies me as a seasoned purist.
I am very cognizant of Henry Combs, never actually met him but knew of his Libelle modifications and great flights no doubt he was a man who paid attention to detail as a structural engineer, I know that type well, my son is one. Old Bob, The Purist

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 16:58:08 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Mon, 2 May 2022 23:58 UTC

On 5/2/2022 10:08 AM, Bob W. wrote:
> On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most likely, or oil fired
>> turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal or oil does not make your motor
>> "emissions free".
>>
>> I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit rather than smugly
>> stating that they aren't polluting the atmosphere.  Huh... Considering conversion losses
>> electric vehicles of any sort probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.
> Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise
> mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that 'obviously' goes
> without saying..."
>
> And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type, howziss for thread
> hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those intolerant killjoys out there in RAS-land,
> please note a quick skim of the article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned -
> no, really!)
>
> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/

And bus fire powered by methane:
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bus-fire/fact-check-clip-does-not-show-a-battery-electric-bus-on-fire-idUSL2N2WN1L4

A toss-up for spectacular.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: mikell...@gmail.com (Michael N.)
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 by: Michael N. - Tue, 3 May 2022 00:37 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
> >>> Will this never end....? :-P
> >>>
> >>> Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.
> >>>
> >>> I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )
> >>>
> >>> I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....
> >>>
> >>> Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....
> >> P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.
> >>
> >> Mike N. - 1M
> > Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
> the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
> flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
> refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
> people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
> an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
> insulting people, but by inspiring them.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Well we could also go back to the days of doing Diamond flights as downwind dashes with little to no communications with our ground support crew as so well detailed in Joseph Coleville Lincolns book Soaring For Diamonds. By the way one of my favorite soaring books ever.

So why do we now fly triangles and out and returns for records? You could say the flying described in the book is truly "Purist".
We don't do that anymore because soaring technology improved to the point that we could actually get back to the originating airport while reaching those distance goals, which is EASIER.

Flying with the option to self retrieve is easier. Assuming the motor starts. As many have pointed out with a sustainer you still flight plan like the motor is not going to start. The motor starting should be a "pleasant surprise" after you've picked your field etc...

Anyway I love the descriptions of flying adventures in Soaring For Diamonds.. But that doesn't mean I'm to trade my radio and GPS data logger in for a Bariograph and barely functioning walkie-talkie.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (2G)
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 by: 2G - Tue, 3 May 2022 02:21 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 4:19:07 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 5/2/2022 2:46 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:45:19 PM UTC-4, mike...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:40:17 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
> > >>> Will this never end....? :-P
> > >>>
> > >>> Same stuff that's been argued over and over for many years here on RAS.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm worried about the carbon footprint required to keep this endless discussion going (not!!! ;-) )
> > >>>
> > >>> I do wonder what glove Bob uses when he stirs the proverbial pot of dung. Those must be some highly worn in crap stirring sticks.....
> > >>>
> > >>> Haha, oh well keep it going, entertainment is entertainment....
> > >> P.S. Bob I came out to have a look at TCSC, nice operation. I'll be back later this year to soar with you guys, Ventus cT sustainer ready for use if needed.
> > >>
> > >> Mike N. - 1M
> > > Always welcome Mike, I do about 95 % of the towing and would be glad to have you at the end of the rope. Mike, I enjoy getting these MG guys all wired up and they just cannot get a good night of sleep without trying to justify their inferior flight platform. Some of these characters can get pretty nasty, but they are good with their justification for assisted flight. Now me being a very mild mannered individual I look at these post as teachable moments, seems to me that these motorglider guys need help in understanding the importance of being a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> > If you really want to improve the Purist brand, you need to find a good role model, and
> > the best one I know of is Henry Combs. Saturday after Saturday, he flew straight out,
> > flying over 200 Diamond Distance flights, many of them ending in field landings. He
> > refused use aero retrieves; instead, he relied on his personality to entice many dozens of
> > people, most of them not glider people, to crew for him, to follow him hundreds of miles
> > an unknown destination, and bring him home. He set a high standard by example, not by
> > insulting people, but by inspiring them.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Eric don't think that is old purist didn't have a role model or two, I have been a real lucky guy and have flown gliders with some great pilots, probably none you ever heard of, but they were really good. The best of the guys was a man named Bennie Flowers, who worked with Dr. August Raspet in the development of increased performance in sailplanes through advanced wing development. Bennie was years ahead of the times, his skills were sharp and his knowledge was extensive. As a young glider pilot Bennie took me under his wing and for years taught me things about flying gliders that most would never achieve. Bennie and I were flying well before this wonderful Latin gentleman named Alfonso arrived and after E9 got his feet on the ground we were flying almost daily for years, I was able to log more than 3000 hours in glass, so I guess that qualifies me as a seasoned purist.
> I am very cognizant of Henry Combs, never actually met him but knew of his Libelle modifications and great flights no doubt he was a man who paid attention to detail as a structural engineer, I know that type well, my son is one. Old Bob, The Purist

There is nothing "pure" about using a 235hp motor to get yourself launched, Not So Pure Bobby.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
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 by: kinsell - Tue, 3 May 2022 05:13 UTC

Back in the old days, we had "sustainers" and "self-launchers", and it
was just understood that a self-launcher also had good sustainer
capability. Now you're asking for a self-launch only ship.

But wait, the future is already here! It's called an "electric glider".

To save some time, Eric will immediately jump in and tell us what the
vaunted Jeta promises to deliver, and I'll respond that some appropriate
level of cynicism should be applied to a company with the track record
of GP. However, with a lot of "skin in the game" as Raul used to say,
Eric will be quite immune to changing his mind.

Ramy has said he'd buy a Jeta as soon as they showed up on the used
market. Good news, your dream ship is just gathering dust on W&W,
looking for its fourth private owner, and having an amazing 0 hrs TT.
Time to put your money where you mouth is, and snatch up this baby
before the dealer does. Maybe the bloom is off the rose on these
things, but Eric just hasn't gotten the word yet :-)

Dave

On 5/1/22 21:17, Ramy wrote:
> Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?
>
> Ramy (just trying to help)
>
> P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
>
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
>>>>> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
>>>>> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
>>>>> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
>>>>> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
>>>>> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
>>>>> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
>>>>> of those.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>>> Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
>>> Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
>>> last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
>>> planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
>>>
>>> By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
>>> some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
>>> motor much more frequently.
>>> --
>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>> Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
>> You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
>> what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
>> So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
>> I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: ramyyan...@gmail.com (Ramy)
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 by: Ramy - Tue, 3 May 2022 07:44 UTC

Ha, I don’t recall saying I’ll buy a used Jetta as soon as they are available in the used market.
Maybe an FES, maybe an AS33 electric, maybe a JS3 electric.
I am still awaiting for that retrieve from hell which will convince me to go to the dark side. Didn’t quiet have one yet.

Ramy

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 10:13:37 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> Back in the old days, we had "sustainers" and "self-launchers", and it
> was just understood that a self-launcher also had good sustainer
> capability. Now you're asking for a self-launch only ship.
>
> But wait, the future is already here! It's called an "electric glider".
>
> To save some time, Eric will immediately jump in and tell us what the
> vaunted Jeta promises to deliver, and I'll respond that some appropriate
> level of cynicism should be applied to a company with the track record
> of GP. However, with a lot of "skin in the game" as Raul used to say,
> Eric will be quite immune to changing his mind.
>
> Ramy has said he'd buy a Jeta as soon as they showed up on the used
> market. Good news, your dream ship is just gathering dust on W&W,
> looking for its fourth private owner, and having an amazing 0 hrs TT.
> Time to put your money where you mouth is, and snatch up this baby
> before the dealer does. Maybe the bloom is off the rose on these
> things, but Eric just hasn't gotten the word yet :-)
>
> Dave
> On 5/1/22 21:17, Ramy wrote:
> > Bob, I have a solution. A motorglider which can only use the engine to launch. Once the engine is shut down, it can no longer restarted until landing. What do you think? I guess the motorgliders can still landout in an airstrip and relaunch, so should we tweak it so the engine can not be restarted again the same day?
> >
> > Ramy (just trying to help)
> >
> > P.S. I love Bob’s entertainment. Some of us are taking ourselves way too seriously.
> >
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>> On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>>> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> >>>>> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> >>>>> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> >>>>> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> >>>>> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> >>>>> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> >>>>> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> >>>>> of those.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >>>> Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> >>> Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> >>> last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> >>> planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> >>>
> >>> By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> >>> some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> >>> motor much more frequently.
> >>> --
> >>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >> Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> >> You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> >> what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> >> So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
> >> I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
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 by: jfitch - Tue, 3 May 2022 16:02 UTC

Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >
> > >>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> > >> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> > >> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> > >> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> > >> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> > >> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> > >> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> > >> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> > >> of those.
> > >> --
> > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> > last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> > planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> >
> > By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> > some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> > motor much more frequently.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button..
> I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: dcmaro...@earthlink.net (Dan Marotta)
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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 10:56:09 -0600
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 by: Dan Marotta - Tue, 3 May 2022 16:56 UTC

Just about anything will burn but some burn hotter and with more toxic
fumes. Some are also less tolerant of minor damage.

I have an obsolete electronic device with an embedded lithium battery.
Maybe I'll whack it with a hammer and see how it reacts. I wouldn't be
very concerned with smashing, say, a propane can used for refilling
lighters.

Dan
5J

On 5/2/22 17:58, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 5/2/2022 10:08 AM, Bob W. wrote:
>> On 5/2/22 10:34, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Where did that electricity come from, Eric?  Coal burning, most
>>> likely, or oil fired turbines.  Just because you didn't burn the coal
>>> or oil does not make your motor "emissions free".
>>>
>>> I wish all the electro-geeks would acknowledge that little tidbit
>>> rather than smugly stating that they aren't polluting the
>>> atmosphere.  Huh... Considering conversion losses electric vehicles
>>> of any sort probably contribute more pollution than gas guzzlers.
>> Aw, c'mon, Dan! Let's not insert killjoy-realities to an otherwise
>> mostly-100%-opinionatory thread!!! Even if it *is* "something that
>> 'obviously' goes without saying..."
>>
>> And since we're enjoying a mid-spring snowstormlet outside as I type,
>> howziss for thread hijacking and pot-stirring? (And for those
>> intolerant killjoys out there in RAS-land, please note a quick skim of
>> the article's comments will reveal *gliding* is mentioned - no, really!)
>>
>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/05/01/electric-bus-catches-fire-after-battery-explosion/
>>
>
> And bus fire powered by methane:
> https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bus-fire/fact-check-clip-does-not-show-a-battery-electric-bus-on-fire-idUSL2N2WN1L4
>
>
> A toss-up for spectacular.
>

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: ramyyan...@gmail.com (Ramy)
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 by: Ramy - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:04 UTC

Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 9:02:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >
> > > >>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> > > >> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> > > >> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> > > >> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> > > >> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> > > >> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> > > >> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> > > >> of those.
> > > >> --
> > > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> > > last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> > > planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> > >
> > > By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> > > some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> > > motor much more frequently.
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> > You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> > what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> > So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
> > I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Tue, 3 May 2022 19:08 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:02:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >
> > > >>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> > > >> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> > > >> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> > > >> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> > > >> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> > > >> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> > > >> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> > > >> of those.
> > > >> --
> > > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> > > last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> > > planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> > >
> > > By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> > > some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> > > motor much more frequently.
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> > You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> > what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> > So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
> > I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist
Mr. Fitch, don't you remember the last time that you stated that I was wrong, yet the proof showed that I was correct, don't be so nieve.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Tue, 3 May 2022 20:41 UTC

On 5/3/2022 10:04 AM, Ramy wrote:
> Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
>
> Ramy

It's been a puzzle to me, too, but you see it in towed glider pilots also. They will buy a
better glider, but don't extend their soaring performance commensurate with the improved
glider performance. Eventually, I realized they got it so they didn't get "in trouble" as
often, as the better glide angle made it easier to find that next thermal, and easier to
keep airports within gliding range. Much of the extra performance went to reducing stress
instead increasing speeds and distances, and that is how many MG pilots use the engine:
stress reduction, not bigger adventures.

My judgment is you are still years from slipping into "stress reduction" mode, so you'd
really enjoy the choices a motorglider gives, letting you make - heaven help the rest of
us - even bigger flights!

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: jfi...@flash.net (jfitch)
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 by: jfitch - Wed, 4 May 2022 04:27 UTC

Bob, you were wrong and are wrong. Are there some motorglider pilots that cheat? Undoubtedly. Are the "purist" pilots that cheat? Likewise. But your logic - if one motorglider pilot cheats then they all must - applies equally to "purists". They must all cheat. Where you are wrong is in generalizing a specific case to a whole population, and inferring behavior and motives where none exist, without the slightest experience. You are like the man telling the woman that pregnancy is wonderful - how would you know, exactly? That is naiveté.

Get some cross country time in a motorglider. Then you might at least have some idea what you are talking about. Until then it's just bloviation. If I come to Florida I'll just get you talking about motorgliders, that hot air thermal should be good for a 1000K ;).
On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:08:07 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:02:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > >> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> > > > >> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> > > > >> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> > > > >> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> > > > >> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> > > > >> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> > > > >> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> > > > >> of those.
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> > > > last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> > > > planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> > > > some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> > > > motor much more frequently.
> > > > --
> > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks.. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> > > You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> > > what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> > > So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
> > > I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist
> Mr. Fitch, don't you remember the last time that you stated that I was wrong, yet the proof showed that I was correct, don't be so nieve.

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