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tech / rec.aviation.soaring / Re: It Gets Worse

SubjectAuthor
* It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
`* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 | `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |  +- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |  `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |   `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |    `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |     `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      +- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      +* Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      | +* Re: It Gets WorseJay Campbell
 |      | |`* Re: It Gets Worsejohn firth
 |      | | `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      | `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |      |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |+* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      ||+* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||+* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      ||||`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||| `- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||`* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| +* Re: It Gets WorseBob W.
 |      ||| |+- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      ||| | `- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||  `* Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   +* Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||   | `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||   |  +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||   |  |`- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |||   |  `- Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      ||`* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      || `* Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      ||  `- Re: It Gets WorseRR
 |      |`* Re: It Gets Worsekinsell
 |      | `- Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |      `* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       |+* Re: It Gets WorseJ6 aka Airport Bum
 |       ||`* Re: It Gets WorseNicholas Kennedy
 |       || +* Re: It Gets WorseDarren Braun
 |       || |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || | +- Re: It Gets WorseDarren Braun
 |       || | `* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       || |  `- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || +* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || |`- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       || +- Re: It Gets WorseDoug Levy
 |       || `* Re: It Gets WorseJ6 aka Airport Bum
 |       ||  +* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||  |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||  | `* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||  |  `* Re: It Gets Worsebpattonsoa@yahoo.com
 |       ||  |   `- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||  `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||   `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||    `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||     +* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||     |`- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||     `* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||      `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |`- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsewaltco...@aol.com
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worserichard wilkening
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseTom Des
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |`* Re: It Gets WorseR
 |       ||       | `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||       |  `* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |   `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       `- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       |`* Re: It Gets WorseDennis
 |       `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com

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Re: It Gets Worse

<28d633f7-18b9-494c-9b8c-5263298bc056n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (2G)
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 by: 2G - Wed, 4 May 2022 04:38 UTC

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 9:27:41 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Bob, you were wrong and are wrong. Are there some motorglider pilots that cheat? Undoubtedly. Are the "purist" pilots that cheat? Likewise. But your logic - if one motorglider pilot cheats then they all must - applies equally to "purists". They must all cheat. Where you are wrong is in generalizing a specific case to a whole population, and inferring behavior and motives where none exist, without the slightest experience. You are like the man telling the woman that pregnancy is wonderful - how would you know, exactly? That is naiveté.
>
> Get some cross country time in a motorglider. Then you might at least have some idea what you are talking about. Until then it's just bloviation. If I come to Florida I'll just get you talking about motorgliders, that hot air thermal should be good for a 1000K ;).
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:08:07 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:02:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.
> > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> > > > > >> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> > > > > >> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> > > > > >> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> > > > > >> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> > > > > >> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> > > > > >> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> > > > > >> of those.
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> > > > > last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> > > > > planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> > > > > some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> > > > > motor much more frequently.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> > > > You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> > > > what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> > > > So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
> > > > I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Mr. Fitch, don't you remember the last time that you stated that I was wrong, yet the proof showed that I was correct, don't be so nieve.

Not So Purist Bobby is losing the battle, as he admitted at the start of this thread. His incoherent ramblings reflect a despair that are linked to his self-interest in selling tows. Nothing is going to change his mind, but he is likely stirring more interest in motorgliders in a back-handed way. How ironic...

Tom

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: juliet...@gmail.com (J6 aka Airport Bum)
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 by: J6 aka Airport Bum - Wed, 4 May 2022 13:02 UTC

Ramy, your comment is right on. Some of us in the motorgliding community, me included, are leaving some great soaring unflown due to not fully utilizing the gift of self-launch. Thanks for the positive challenge!

I personally have only flown a small handful of “no towplane” sites in the six seasons I have flown my ‘26 - a crime, I realize, now that I reflect on your comment. A self launcher is a discovery machine!

A recent example: Michael Price recently flew a pioneering wave flight out of North Georgia in his Ventus 2 self launcher, he put some serious miles in BUT just scratched the surface…. Well done, Mike, looking forward to some really big flights using the same approach! We other self launch pilots in the Southeast need to join you in such explorations.

I personally want to get that last “big fish”, my 1000k south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-and-west-of-the-Mississippi (as I did all my Diamonds, in a pure glider by the way…). A way to do this is to camp my ‘26 at a southern Appalachian airport (no towplane required) during the ridge season, and go on a weather watch for the big day…. Perhaps using wave like Mike is pioneering!

Right now my upcoming western soaring safari has August into September open as far as flying sites…. Perhaps Wyoming warrants some no-tow-plane-available exploration!

Thanks for the positive challenge, Ramy! It’s getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
>
> Ramy

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: nickkenn...@gmail.com (Nicholas Kennedy)
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 by: Nicholas Kennedy - Wed, 4 May 2022 13:34 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> Ramy, your comment is right on. Some of us in the motorgliding community, me included, are leaving some great soaring unflown due to not fully utilizing the gift of self-launch. Thanks for the positive challenge!
>
> I personally have only flown a small handful of “no towplane” sites in the six seasons I have flown my ‘26 - a crime, I realize, now that I reflect on your comment. A self launcher is a discovery machine!
>
> A recent example: Michael Price recently flew a pioneering wave flight out of North Georgia in his Ventus 2 self launcher, he put some serious miles in BUT just scratched the surface…. Well done, Mike, looking forward to some really big flights using the same approach! We other self launch pilots in the Southeast need to join you in such explorations.
>
> I personally want to get that last “big fish”, my 1000k south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-and-west-of-the-Mississippi (as I did all my Diamonds, in a pure glider by the way…). A way to do this is to camp my ‘26 at a southern Appalachian airport (no towplane required) during the ridge season, and go on a weather watch for the big day…. Perhaps using wave like Mike is pioneering!
>
> Right now my upcoming western soaring safari has August into September open as far as flying sites…. Perhaps Wyoming warrants some no-tow-plane-available exploration!
>
> Thanks for the positive challenge, Ramy! It’s getting better!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
> >
> > Ramy

ALONE
Def: By yourself

Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
Nick
T

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: dbraun...@gmail.com (Darren Braun)
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 by: Darren Braun - Wed, 4 May 2022 15:43 UTC

Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to random gated airports located near the convergence/favored soaring terrain.
Darren

> ALONE
> Def: By yourself
>
> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
> Nick
> T

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 08:51:41 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Wed, 4 May 2022 15:51 UTC

On 5/4/2022 6:34 AM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:

>> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
>>> Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
>>>
>>> Ramy
>
> ALONE
> Def: By yourself
>
> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
> Nick

It is more fun when others are around! I'm sure you could find other motorglider pilots
that would love to fly from Austin or other good soaring location. I've done it, and it's
easy to arrange: just some dates for where you'd like to fly, let other MG pilots know you
are looking for company, agree on dates, show up and fly.

in 2021, I did that at Richfield, UT. Five of us (three ASH26E, one each Silent 2 Electro
and Ventus 2cM) had good flights over 10 days or so of flying. There's another approach,
if you live in an area of good soaring: entice MG pilots to come to your airport. Shmuel
Dimenstein in Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him. Or do something like I
did in April: fly out a convenient airport (Willows, California), and you'll have the
company of pilots flying from Williams, Hollister, and more.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: doug1...@gmail.com (Doug Levy)
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 by: Doug Levy - Wed, 4 May 2022 16:01 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:34:23 AM UTC-7, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > Ramy, your comment is right on. Some of us in the motorgliding community, me included, are leaving some great soaring unflown due to not fully utilizing the gift of self-launch. Thanks for the positive challenge!
> >
> > I personally have only flown a small handful of “no towplane” sites in the six seasons I have flown my ‘26 - a crime, I realize, now that I reflect on your comment. A self launcher is a discovery machine!
> >
> > A recent example: Michael Price recently flew a pioneering wave flight out of North Georgia in his Ventus 2 self launcher, he put some serious miles in BUT just scratched the surface…. Well done, Mike, looking forward to some really big flights using the same approach! We other self launch pilots in the Southeast need to join you in such explorations.
> >
> > I personally want to get that last “big fish”, my 1000k south-of-the-Mason-Dixon-and-west-of-the-Mississippi (as I did all my Diamonds, in a pure glider by the way…). A way to do this is to camp my ‘26 at a southern Appalachian airport (no towplane required) during the ridge season, and go on a weather watch for the big day…. Perhaps using wave like Mike is pioneering!
> >
> > Right now my upcoming western soaring safari has August into September open as far as flying sites…. Perhaps Wyoming warrants some no-tow-plane-available exploration!
> >
> > Thanks for the positive challenge, Ramy! It’s getting better!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6
> > On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> ALONE
> Def: By yourself
>
> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
> Nick
> T
Nick, I can understand your feeling of spending time alone is not enjoyable.. When I take my Phoenix touring motor glider I make an effort to catch dinner at a local brewery or bar and engage in a conversation with strangers. It is remarkably enjoyable to share soaring pictures and tales with people that are not aware of soaring. I get the feeling of the early barnstormers.
I try to look at the Skysight forecast and launch based on that and then follow the convergence forecast or the clouds. Then as the day weakens or it is getting late find an airport and figure out what to do next. I have a sleeping bag and tent with me but really want a motel room and a meal.
I've got thousands of hours in my SGS 1-26 and years of hang gliding. I know pure soaring. Motor gliding touring has been my favorite adventure. I'm surprised more pilots are not doing it.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: juliet...@gmail.com (J6 aka Airport Bum)
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 by: J6 aka Airport Bum - Wed, 4 May 2022 16:09 UTC

Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.

In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.

So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?

Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.

Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....

It's getting better!

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
> ALONE
> Def: By yourself
>
> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
> Nick
> T

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 09:13:42 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Wed, 4 May 2022 16:13 UTC

On 5/4/2022 8:51 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Shmuel Dimenstein in Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him.

That should be Rifle, CO, not UT!

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 09:45:28 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Wed, 4 May 2022 16:45 UTC

On 5/4/2022 8:43 AM, Darren Braun wrote:

If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting me
assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after that.

> Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to random gated airports located near the convergence/favored soaring terrain.
> Darren
>
>> ALONE
>> Def: By yourself
>>
>> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
>> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
>> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
>> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
>> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
>> Nick
>> T

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: dbraun...@gmail.com (Darren Braun)
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 by: Darren Braun - Wed, 4 May 2022 18:36 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:45:32 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
> towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
> the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
> problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
> safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting me
> assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after that.

Eric, good to know. It would awesome to get a list of RV/MG friendly places going in some shape or form.
Darren

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: dcmaro...@earthlink.net (Dan Marotta)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:18:12 -0600
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 by: Dan Marotta - Wed, 4 May 2022 19:18 UTC

Ritchfield, UT... I launched out of there in 2001 using a friend's
ASW-24e on the 4th of July. It was the fourth day of our safari and I
flew north to Salina, east to Green River, south over Moab and
Montecello, UT, then to Cortez, CO, and landed at Durango. A great day
and a great week of straight out soaring flights!

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 09:51, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 6:34 AM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:02:07 AM UTC-6, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
>
>>> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 12:04:37 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
>>>> Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of
>>>> their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in
>>>> the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I
>>>> had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places
>>>> and land in different places and explore different places. I
>>>> wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they
>>>> operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider
>>>> pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their
>>>> motor as you believe.
>>>>
>>>> Ramy
>>
>> ALONE
>>   Def: By yourself
>>
>> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots
>> don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
>> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last  one here for
>> a couple of years.
>> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly
>> these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of
>> anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of
>> fun to be honest.
>> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
>> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo
>> week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
>> Nick
>
> It is more fun when others are around! I'm sure you could find other
> motorglider pilots that would love to fly from Austin or other good
> soaring location. I've done it, and it's easy to arrange: just some
> dates for where you'd like to fly, let other MG pilots know you are
> looking for company, agree on dates, show up and fly.
>
> in 2021, I did that at Richfield, UT. Five of us (three ASH26E, one each
> Silent 2 Electro and Ventus 2cM) had good flights over 10 days or so of
> flying. There's another approach, if you live in an area of good
> soaring: entice MG pilots to come to your airport. Shmuel Dimenstein in
> Rifle, UT, has made that work really well for him. Or do something like
> I did in April: fly out a convenient airport (Willows, California), and
> you'll have the company of pilots flying from Williams, Hollister, and
> more.
>

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: dcmaro...@earthlink.net (Dan Marotta)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:22:54 -0600
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 by: Dan Marotta - Wed, 4 May 2022 19:22 UTC

I have a partner in my Cessna 180 and he owns an ASW-27b. We explored
the possibility of installing a tow release on the 180 so that we could
go safari together (he's also a tow pilot). ... But the insurance
company said (paraphrasing) HELL NO!

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 10:09, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.
>
> In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.
>
> So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?
>
> Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.
>
> Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....
>
> It's getting better!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6
>
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
>> ALONE
>> Def: By yourself
>>
>> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
>> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
>> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
>> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
>> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
>> Nick
>> T

Re: It Gets Worse

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Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:31:25 -0600
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 by: Dan Marotta - Wed, 4 May 2022 19:31 UTC

Montrose, CO has airline service and I've attended two Stemme gatherings
there. We tie our gliders down at the south end while the airline
terminal is at the north end. We also use different runways so, as long
as everyone monitors the radio at this non-towered airport, there are no
difficulties.

My LS6 partner landed our ship at Gallup, NM while on another safari
back in the mid-90s. There was no TSA then and airport life was much
friendlier. An inbound airliner, upon hearing that Walt was preparing
to land, offered to hold for him. He had plenty of altitude, hovered up
high, and told the airliner to land ahead of him. I was waiting by the
taxiway and, when he rolled out, I drove out onto the runway and we
hooked up the tow out gear and moved to the ramp where we dismantled the
ship.

Not wanting to interfere in the morning, we trailered to Holbrook, AZ,
checked in with the airport manager, rigged and launched me by auto tow
using our 1,000' rope. By the time Walt had the rope rolled up, I was
passing through 14,000' MSL. Good times!

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 10:45, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 8:43 AM, Darren Braun wrote:
>
> If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying
> there with a towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is
> good, with them letting me bring the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp
> (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause problems is airline service,
> even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA safety and
> security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me,
> letting me assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome
> outside the gate after that.
>
>> Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to
>> random gated airports located near the convergence/favored soaring
>> terrain.
>> Darren
>>
>>> ALONE
>>> Def: By yourself
>>>
>>> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots
>>> don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
>>> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for
>>> a couple of years.
>>> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly
>>> these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of
>>> anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of
>>> fun to be honest.
>>> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
>>> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a
>>> solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
>>> Nick
>>> T
>
>

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:00:51 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Wed, 4 May 2022 20:00 UTC

If you fly in with a MG, you are just an odd looking airplane, and it's usually easier
than trying to get in with a trailer and tow vehicle, then rigging. The oddest situation I
had was in Canada, where I landed at an airport with a FSS (sort of). Because it had
commuter service, they won't allow me to bring the motorhome and trailer on the the ramp,
but they did allow me to back the trailer through the gate (just the back end - wheels had
to stay outside!). They helped push the glider to the trailer, I derigged, everybody was
happy.

Eric

On 5/4/2022 12:31 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Montrose, CO has airline service and I've attended two Stemme gatherings there.  We tie
> our gliders down at the south end while the airline terminal is at the north end.  We also
> use different runways so, as long as everyone monitors the radio at this non-towered
> airport, there are no difficulties.
>
> My LS6 partner landed our ship at Gallup, NM while on another safari back in the mid-90s.
> There was no TSA then and airport life was much friendlier.  An inbound airliner, upon
> hearing that Walt was preparing to land, offered to hold for him.  He had plenty of
> altitude, hovered up high, and told the airliner to land ahead of him.  I was waiting by
> the taxiway and, when he rolled out, I drove out onto the runway and we hooked up the tow
> out gear and moved to the ramp where we dismantled the ship.
>
> Not wanting to interfere in the morning, we trailered to Holbrook, AZ, checked in with the
> airport manager, rigged and launched me by auto tow using our 1,000' rope.  By the time
> Walt had the rope rolled up, I was passing through 14,000' MSL.  Good times!
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 5/4/22 10:45, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 5/4/2022 8:43 AM, Darren Braun wrote:
>>
>> If getting access for a MG trailer is a problem, you won't be flying there with a
>> towplane, either. My experience with gated airports is good, with them letting me bring
>> the motorhome and trailer onto the ramp (like Richfield and Rifle). What can cause
>> problems is airline service, even if it's just commuter service, due to additional TSA
>> safety and security requirements, but some of those airports will work with me, letting
>> me assemble on the ramp, but requiring me to keep the motorhome outside the gate after
>> that.
>>
>>> Nick makes a great point and along with that is getting ramp access to random gated
>>> airports located near the convergence/favored soaring terrain.
>>> Darren
>>>
>>>> ALONE
>>>> Def: By yourself
>>>>
>>>> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out
>>>> and fly new interesting places, alone.
>>>> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
>>>> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great
>>>> flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could
>>>> care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
>>>> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
>>>> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone
>>>> doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
>>>> Nick
>>>> T
>>
>>

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 23:21 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:23:00 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I have a partner in my Cessna 180 and he owns an ASW-27b. We explored
> the possibility of installing a tow release on the 180 so that we could
> go safari together (he's also a tow pilot). ... But the insurance
> company said (paraphrasing) HELL NO!
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/4/22 10:09, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> > Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.
> >
> > In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.
> >
> > So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?
> >
> > Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.
> >
> > Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....
> >
> > It's getting better!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6
> >
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> ALONE
> >> Def: By yourself
> >>
> >> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
> >> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
> >> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest..
> >> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
> >> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
> >> Nick
> >> T
Dan, I had a tow hook on a 180, no problem. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 23:27 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.
>
> In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.
>
> So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?
>
> Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.
>
> Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....
> It's getting better!

No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
> > ALONE
> > Def: By yourself
> >
> > Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
> > At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
> > I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
> > Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
> > This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
> > Nick
> > T

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:37 UTC

On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
's getting better!
>
> No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist

You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!

Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
Convenience!

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 11:34 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> 's getting better!
> >
> > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
>
> Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> Convenience!
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 05:40:41 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Thu, 5 May 2022 12:40 UTC

On 5/5/2022 4:34 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 's getting better!
>>>
>>> No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
>> You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
>> a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
>> But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
>> finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
>> you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
>> 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
>>
>> Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
>> know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
>> the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
>> Convenience!
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
We don't have a local club, but I am a member of Seattle Glider Council, which operates a
facility at Ephrata. They do charge a fee for field/clubhouse use, trailer parking, glider
tiedowns, and the RV campground. There is no launch fee, but motorglider pilots have often
served for years as towpilots, elected officials in the club, and Regional Directors.
Motorglider pilots are often some of the most dedicated to the club.
Please describe your flight experience with MG pilots, and what they did that was
different from what you do. You keep telling us there is a vast difference, so that should
be easy, but repeated requests for specifics from myself and others have gone unanswered.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: markmoch...@gmail.com (Mark Mocho)
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 by: Mark Mocho - Thu, 5 May 2022 14:13 UTC

but repeated requests for specifics from myself and others have gone unanswered.

Eric- Old Bob always answers your questions. It's just that his answers do not provide any information. It's like asking a politician for specifics. You get plenty of volume, but no substance.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: jfi...@flash.net (jfitch)
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 by: jfitch - Thu, 5 May 2022 15:10 UTC

Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 's getting better!
> > >
> > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> >
> > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > Convenience!
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: dcmaro...@earthlink.net (Dan Marotta)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 11:31:04 -0600
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 by: Dan Marotta - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:31 UTC

Bob, the problem is that our insurance company won't provide coverage if
we install a hook. I know that's ridiculous but maybe they're concerned
that 4717 tows given or thereabouts, is not enough experience. Then
again it could be my age. The insurance companies are quite open about
their age discrimination, after all...

Dan
5J

On 5/4/22 17:21, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:23:00 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I have a partner in my Cessna 180 and he owns an ASW-27b. We explored
>> the possibility of installing a tow release on the 180 so that we could
>> go safari together (he's also a tow pilot). ... But the insurance
>> company said (paraphrasing) HELL NO!
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>> On 5/4/22 10:09, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
>>> Yes, Nick, this is an issue. Not just on the enjoyment front, but for safety also. For me also, soaring is as much a social thing as an aviation thing. And safety is paramount.
>>>
>>> In the self-launch world, we need more encampments like the annual Aux-powered Sailplane Association Parowan event. The Parowan camp has been full/oversubscribed/waitlisted for years now, and the new FBO there at 1L9 has rearranged the ramp a bit so there is less glider tiedown capacity (although he is friendly and supportive of the event) reducing capacity and making the problem worse. We at ASA have talked about an Eastern camp (probably during ridge/wave season) but efforts to find a suitable site have stalled. Site reconnaissance possible because of the gift of self-launch, as suggested by Ramy's comment, has to be done to find suitable sites for small/medium size group encampments, which is the enjoyment "gold standard" in my experience.
>>>
>>> So, perhaps with some less-than-optimal-fun solo or buddy-pair site reconnaissance (with safety considered by pre-arranged tracking monitoring) we can open up some new and interesting soaring sites for the growing group of self-launchers. Regarding my ideas to reconnoiter some new sites this August/September, are there any other retired airport bums with self-launchers out there who might want to buddy up with me on this?
>>>
>>> Not to leave the purists out: I have noted that there have been some some recent acquisitions of privately owned (non-commercial and non-club) towplanes which may eventually become available "for hire" to support towed gliders at encampments. Too early to tell, but this might be a good development for the adventurous purists out there.
>>>
>>> Bob, apologies for hijacking your post, but it has really spawned some interesting and productive discussion. We probably ought to spawn new discussion strings to explore these further....
>>>
>>> It's getting better!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jim J6
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:34:23 AM UTC-5, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> ALONE
>>>> Def: By yourself
>>>>
>>>> Yes Ramy is correct and that is my observation too; that MG pilots don't often go out and fly new interesting places, alone.
>>>> At the end of Telluride Soaring existence I was the last one here for a couple of years.
>>>> I would go the the field alone, rig alone, take off alone and go fly these great flights, you guessed it, alone. No one to share any of anything with and my wife could care less. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest.
>>>> Today 95% of my soaring is at a events with others around.
>>>> This idea of dragging your MG to Hanksville Ut or Austin NV for a solo week alone doesn't sound all that great to me. But that's just me.
>>>> Nick
>>>> T
> Dan, I had a tow hook on a 180, no problem. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: bpatton...@yahoo.com (bpattonsoa@yahoo.com)
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 by: bpattonsoa@yahoo.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 19:32 UTC

I ran across a true purist in 1969 or 1970 at Crystalaire when I was renting their 1-34 learning about real soaring. He was a German student that had rented a glider, Cirrus I think, to do XCountry. He had no crew. He would fly North as far as he could go, no effort to return, and mostly land at an airport, but sometimes not. He would tie down the glider and hitchhike back to his car at Crystal, hook up the trailer and retrieve the glider. He said he would recruit help in the in a local bar when he got to the glider at night. Once back he put it together again and headed North. I believe he said he was there for a month.

Bruce Patton
(Just went to dark side with a HPH 304MS after flying the HP-18 I built since 1982)

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 20:47 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:32:33 PM UTC-4, bpattonsoa@yahoo.com wrote:
> I ran across a true purist in 1969 or 1970 at Crystalaire when I was renting their 1-34 learning about real soaring. He was a German student that had rented a glider, Cirrus I think, to do XCountry. He had no crew. He would fly North as far as he could go, no effort to return, and mostly land at an airport, but sometimes not. He would tie down the glider and hitchhike back to his car at Crystal, hook up the trailer and retrieve the glider. He said he would recruit help in the in a local bar when he got to the glider at night. Once back he put it together again and headed North. I believe he said he was there for a month.
>
> Bruce Patton
> (Just went to dark side with a HPH 304MS after flying the HP-18 I built since 1982)
Bruce, come on over and join the fun with us here on the Treasure Coast, free tow on me or free self launch fee, on me. Old Bob, The Purist

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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 20:57 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch.. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.

Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > 's getting better!
> > > >
> > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > >
> > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > Convenience!
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

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