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tech / rec.aviation.soaring / Re: It Gets Worse

SubjectAuthor
* It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
`* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 | `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |  +- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |  `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |   `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |    `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |     `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      +- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      +* Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      | +* Re: It Gets WorseJay Campbell
 |      | |`* Re: It Gets Worsejohn firth
 |      | | `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      | `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |      |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |+* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      ||+* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||+* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      ||||`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||| `- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||`* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| +* Re: It Gets WorseBob W.
 |      ||| |+- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      ||| | `- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      ||| `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||  `* Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   +* Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||   | `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |      |||   |  +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |      |||   |  |`- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      |||   |  `- Re: It Gets WorseMichael N.
 |      |||   `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      ||`* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |      || `* Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |      ||  `- Re: It Gets WorseRR
 |      |`* Re: It Gets Worsekinsell
 |      | `- Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |      `* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       |+* Re: It Gets WorseJ6 aka Airport Bum
 |       ||`* Re: It Gets WorseNicholas Kennedy
 |       || +* Re: It Gets WorseDarren Braun
 |       || |`* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || | +- Re: It Gets WorseDarren Braun
 |       || | `* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       || |  `- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || +* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || |+- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       || |`- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       || +- Re: It Gets WorseDoug Levy
 |       || `* Re: It Gets WorseJ6 aka Airport Bum
 |       ||  +* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||  |`* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||  | `* Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||  |  `* Re: It Gets Worsebpattonsoa@yahoo.com
 |       ||  |   `- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||  `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||   `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||    `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||     +* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||     |`- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||     `* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||      `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |`- Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsewaltco...@aol.com
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worserichard wilkening
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseTom Des
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets Worsejfitch
 |       ||       |+- Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |`* Re: It Gets WorseR
 |       ||       | `* Re: It Gets WorseEric Greenwell
 |       ||       |  `* Re: It Gets WorseRamy
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseMark Mocho
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets WorseDan Marotta
 |       ||       |   +- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       |   `- Re: It Gets Worse2G
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       +- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       ||       `- Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 |       |`* Re: It Gets WorseDennis
 |       `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com
 `* Re: It Gets Worseyoungbl...@gmail.com

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Re: It Gets Worse

<ffee3154-bb4d-4fc6-bf8e-2630c4cd5c07n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: ramyyan...@gmail.com (Ramy)
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 by: Ramy - Thu, 5 May 2022 22:29 UTC

I am pretty sure old Bob doesn’t have any hidden agenda other than triggering motorglider pilots and making fun of them ;) if/when I get a motor, Bob will be the first to know and I’ll brace myself…

Now my view on the subject is simple: it is far less of a hassle to fly motorgliders. You can fly almost anywhere and anytime without bagging for tow pilots and waiting in line, and you can fly cross country without much worry about landout, crew etc. You pay for it with cash and much more maintainace hassle.
Except very few exceptions, I don’t see any noticeable difference between motorglider flights vs pure gliders. The main thing that motorglider pilots are missing are the roller coaster emotions the pure glider pilot experience when they have to dig themselves out of a possible landout far from home in the middle of nowhere…

Ramy

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 's getting better!
> > > > >
> > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > >
> > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > Convenience!
> > > > --
> > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

<t526ol$17s9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 21:04:36 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Fri, 6 May 2022 04:04 UTC

On 5/5/2022 3:29 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Except very few exceptions, I don’t see any noticeable difference between motorglider flights vs pure gliders. The main thing that motorglider pilots are missing are the roller coaster emotions the pure glider pilot experience when they have to dig themselves out of a possible landout far from home in the middle of nowhere…
>
> Ramy

The thrill of a low save is still there, but not accompanied by as much sweat as a towed
pilot produces. The retrieve would be more difficult for the motorglider because of it's
extra weight, but it's less likely to need a retrieve. Balancing the risk of landout vs
retrieve has to be done by both pilots.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

<c9e4a2e3-f847-4e94-b5fb-aa78ddee0acdn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: jdyeom...@guam.net (Dennis)
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 by: Dennis - Fri, 6 May 2022 04:11 UTC

Ramy, you are right on. I am continually fighting the urge to keep flying like a pure glider and turn on my fan to extend my gliding and pleasure.On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:04:37 AM UTC-10, Ramy wrote:
> Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
>
> Ramy
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 9:02:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > Old Bob, you continue the fiction that cross country flight planning and execution are much different between motorgliders and non. If you were experienced with motorglider cross country flight, your opinion might carry some weight, but speaking from complete ignorance it does not. Regarding separate classes in OLC, sure let's have one for motorgliders - and also recent designs vs older, those with crew vs those without, those who own a gliderport and towplane vs those who don't, those with jobs vs. the unemployed, etc. A real "purist" would sell his trailer and limit his credit card to one tow a day (no relights, no retrieves). That would change your behavior far more than carrying a motor in the back. The trailer and retrieve towplane serve the same purpose, just less expensive and not quite as convenient as a motor to use.
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On 4/30/2022 3:31 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>> Eric, I understand this situation extremely well, been doing this gig for a long time and still having fun. My observation on motor gliders and sustainers is right on target, I do not have a problem flying my pure glider over areas where land out is a possibility, I must make good decisions unlike the motor glider drivers. The motor glider segment is for convenience, and I have no problem with that. When my skills erode to the point where I do not feel confident in making a challenging purist flight I will just hang it up and move on to something new and exciting, but until that time comes I will be a purist. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > >> Most of us, including you and me, want to avoid the inconvenience of landing away from our
> > > > >> home airport. Motorglider owners have chosen a motor to provide the convenience of making
> > > > >> it home; you've chosen to soar very cautiously to provide the convenience of making it
> > > > >> home. It's not a bad thing, as it's what most of the towed glider pilots do to varying
> > > > >> extents, but it's not what I consider "challenging" flying, which inevitably involves
> > > > >> landing away a few times a year. After all, if you always make it home, you are likely
> > > > >> leaving a lot soaring "on the table", and could've gone faster, farther, or longer, or all
> > > > >> of those.
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > Eric, please do not lose sleep over the Purist vs the MG ! I have not left a lot on the table during my years of glider flying, rather I still put down in strange places every now and then. I just understand that there is a huge difference between the way I plan and conduct my flights vs the MG guys. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Perhaps I have misjudged what I see on the OLC. How many retrieves have you had in the
> > > > last two or three years? How does your planning and flying differ from the MG guys? My
> > > > planning and flying did not change much when I got a motorglider, for example.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, "motorglider guys" do not all have the same goals, priorities, and skills:
> > > > some soar cautiously and very rarely use the motor inflight; others push hard, and use the
> > > > motor much more frequently.
> > > > --
> > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > Eric, I have had retrieves during the past few years and yes I will have more in the future. Yes, us purist do plan our flights accordingly and different from the MG guys and gals, we cannot make as many mistakes and therefore must optimize every opportunity. Simply stated and understood is the fact that we do not have that get home free pass hanging around our necks.. What you and others have failed to acknowledge is the fact that purist flights are much more demanding and require mush better planning and execution that motor glider flights, we simply do not get a second chance.
> > > You asked the question, 'How does my flight planning differ from MG flights", simple reply is that I do not have a get me out of this jam button to make me look like a hero! I think that your flights and planning differed more than you realize when you got a MG, I look at this guy in Florida that is flying some type of Pippencrap? and takes off from Boca and motors out for a while and then tries gliding only to start the motor back up to get home and scores his points on OLC and I just shake my head and laugh! Even "The Bum", would laugh at that scenario.
> > > what amuses me is the fact that many MG guys and probably including yourself think that there is no difference between the purist flight and the saved by the start button switch flight. Do you think that I realize that there is a convenience of having a self launch, why heck yes, I have no problem with self launch, finding old guys like myself and my old Pawnee are like the flip phone, hardly can find one anymore.
> > > So, what and how should the purist flight be scored differently than the MG flight? The purist flight should be given extra OLC points because of the void of the start button or the as I call it the beam me up Scotty button.
> > > I hope that I have answered your questions regarding Purist flights vs MG flights. Take care and I will pray that your Solo engine continues to run. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 06:03:38 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:03 UTC

Yes, even myself after 26 years and 4000+ hours flying a motorglider, I still have to give
myself pep talks ("You don't need to turn around now! Stay here with the good soaring
instead of dashing for the airport at home!"). Most motorgliders pilots have a lot of
towed glider experience, and have a very hard time overriding that experience. Towed Bob
doesn't understand this, and confuses what is possible with what actually happens.

There are some that do expand their soaring; for example, Kempton Izuno made a number of
unassisted safaris when he had his ASH26E, and that inspired me to be more adventurous.
But, The Kings of Kross-Kountry have to Winfried Boos and Fritz Schneider, with their
unassisted safaris from Texas to Alaska, and across Africa. What challenges they faced so
boldly!

On 5/5/2022 9:11 PM, Dennis wrote:
> Ramy, you are right on. I am continually fighting the urge to keep flying like a pure glider and turn on my fan to extend my gliding and pleasure.On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:04:37 AM UTC-10, Ramy wrote:
>> Bob in reality, most motorglider pilots do not take advantage of their motors and fly even more conservatively than pure gliders in the areas I fly (except some of the guys at Minden and Ely). If I had a motorglider I would have used it to fly from different places and land in different places and explore different places. I wouldn’t tether myself to the nearest glider port and the days they operate. This is something I could never figure out with motorglider pilots that most of them in fact do not take advantage of their motor as you believe.
>>
>> Ramy

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: jfi...@flash.net (jfitch)
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 by: jfitch - Fri, 6 May 2022 15:29 UTC

Bob,
Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a motorglider and always self launched.

Ramy,
I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 's getting better!
> > > > >
> > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > >
> > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > Convenience!
> > > > --
> > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Fri, 6 May 2022 21:33 UTC

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Bob,
> Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a motorglider and always self launched.
>
> Ramy,
> I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> > Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > 's getting better!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > > >
> > > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > > Convenience!
> > > > > --
> > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: markmoch...@gmail.com (Mark Mocho)
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 by: Mark Mocho - Fri, 6 May 2022 23:14 UTC

The title of this thread is most accurate. There is absolutely NO "thread drift."

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: jfi...@flash.net (jfitch)
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 by: jfitch - Sat, 7 May 2022 05:55 UTC

Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > Bob,
> > Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a motorglider and always self launched.
> >
> > Ramy,
> > I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> > > Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > 's getting better!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > > > Convenience!
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 20:20:17 +0000
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Sat, 7 May 2022 20:20 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > Bob,
> > > Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a motorglider and always self launched.
> > >
> > > Ramy,
> > > I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
> > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> > > > Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > 's getting better!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > > > > Convenience!
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist
Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (2G)
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 by: 2G - Sun, 8 May 2022 04:14 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Bob,
> > > > Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a motorglider and always self launched.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy,
> > > > I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
> > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either.. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> > > > > Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > 's getting better!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > > > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > > > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > > > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > > > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > > > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > > > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > > > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > > > > > Convenience!
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist
> Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

All this crap from Not So Purist Bobby has NOTHING to do with the "advantages" that motorglider pilots have over gravity gliders - it is ALL ABOUT MONEY! Bobby views motorgliders as a THREAT to his way of doing business, pure (so to speak) and simple. They don't buy tows, which is what he sells. He can't say that, so he comes up with this other bullshit to defame motorglider pilots. Bobby: GROW UP! Gravity gliders aren't going away and their owners will still need your tows.

Tom

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: waltconn...@aol.com (waltco...@aol.com)
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 by: waltco...@aol.com - Sun, 8 May 2022 12:29 UTC

You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )

Walt Connelly
Former Helicopter Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: markmoch...@gmail.com (Mark Mocho)
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 by: Mark Mocho - Sun, 8 May 2022 13:11 UTC

> You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter.

And, the title of this useless thread continues to set new records for truth. Not the responses, just the title.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (2G)
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 by: 2G - Sun, 8 May 2022 18:01 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:29:47 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Helicopter Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

You mean that a helicopter is the only machine that wants to fly apart.

Tom

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Sun, 8 May 2022 22:17 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 2:01:56 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:29:47 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Helicopter Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> You mean that a helicopter is the only machine that wants to fly apart.
>
> Tom
2G, hey dumbass, more motorglider engines fall apart vs helicopter.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (2G)
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 by: 2G - Tue, 10 May 2022 01:11 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 3:17:44 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 2:01:56 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:29:47 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > You do realize that the only real pilots are helicopter pilots and the only real flying machine is a helicopter. And remember, DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT. (Seaplanes are nice too )
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Helicopter Pilot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> > You mean that a helicopter is the only machine that wants to fly apart.
> >
> > Tom
> 2G, hey dumbass, more motorglider engines fall apart vs helicopter.

My, my - are we getting TESTY now, Not So Purist Bobby?

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: richard....@gmail.com (richard wilkening)
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 by: richard wilkening - Tue, 10 May 2022 01:36 UTC

The original Airmail Pilots looked down on lesser men who flew in enclosed cabins.

https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2017/05/decked-out-in-winter-flight-gear.html

Eventually those that survived were won over.

I for one am glad that time has brought us improvements and have no problem with
those who want to fly differently but am glad other options are available.

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Wed, 11 May 2022 01:01 UTC

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC-4, richard....@gmail.com wrote:
> The original Airmail Pilots looked down on lesser men who flew in enclosed cabins.
>
> https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2017/05/decked-out-in-winter-flight-gear.html
>
> Eventually those that survived were won over.
>
> I for one am glad that time has brought us improvements and have no problem with
> those who want to fly differently but am glad other options are available..
Richard, thanks for the alternative point of view, greatly appreciated and accepted. My major theory is that motorglider pilots are not firmly fixed, AKA, insecure. They seem not to be very confident on their abilities to react under pressure, that being, react under pressure of landing out. I guess you could conclude that they are expressing unconfident traits, those that you would rather keep your distance during a real crisis. Now I know some of my MG friends are really going to get upset over this reply, but what else would you expect. Eric and, "The Bum", really get bent out of shape with my evaluation of MG pilots, yet they continue to explain how wonderful motorgliding is. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (2G)
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 by: 2G - Wed, 11 May 2022 01:12 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 6:01:48 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC-4, richard....@gmail.com wrote:
> > The original Airmail Pilots looked down on lesser men who flew in enclosed cabins.
> >
> > https://dailytimewaster.blogspot.com/2017/05/decked-out-in-winter-flight-gear.html
> >
> > Eventually those that survived were won over.
> >
> > I for one am glad that time has brought us improvements and have no problem with
> > those who want to fly differently but am glad other options are available.
> Richard, thanks for the alternative point of view, greatly appreciated and accepted. My major theory is that motorglider pilots are not firmly fixed, AKA, insecure. They seem not to be very confident on their abilities to react under pressure, that being, react under pressure of landing out. I guess you could conclude that they are expressing unconfident traits, those that you would rather keep your distance during a real crisis. Now I know some of my MG friends are really going to get upset over this reply, but what else would you expect. Eric and, "The Bum", really get bent out of shape with my evaluation of MG pilots, yet they continue to explain how wonderful motorgliding is. Old Bob, The Purist

Well, we all know that Bobby IS NOT a purist at all, and knows nothing about motorgliders, as he has confirmed time and time again. What he is is a capitalist that wants to suck as much money as possible out of the pockets of his like-minded followers. Now, if I had a gravity glider, I, too, would be glad that Bobby is providing tows in his gas guzzling Pawnee, even if it is far less environmentally friendly way to launch than a motorglider.

Tom

Re: It Gets Worse

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From: own...@thegreenwells.netto (Eric Greenwell)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 20:50:44 -0700
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 by: Eric Greenwell - Wed, 11 May 2022 03:50 UTC

On 5/10/2022 6:01 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Eric and, "The Bum", really get bent out of shape with my evaluation of MG pilots, yet they continue to explain how wonderful motorgliding is. Old Bob, The Purist

You don't evaluate MG pilots, but simply paint them all with the same brush. A real
evaluation would find a wide variety of people flying motorgliders, just like the wide
variety that fly towed gliders. This negativity may dissuade someone from considering a
motorglider, even though it may benefit them. That's unfortunate, but not unsafe.

My main concern is your frequent "get out of a jam button" remark, as if motorgliders made
soaring safer. That kind of comment might induce a pilot to get a motorglider, hoping it
will make him safer, and allow him to fly cross-country without the stress he normally
feels. And that, I think, is unsafe.

BTW, it's SOARING that is wonderful, not "motorgliding". Motorgliders are used to pursue
soaring, as are towplanes and winches. Please stop dividing us by how we launch and
retrieve ourselves. Spend your energy promoting soaring instead.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: bumpe...@gmail.com (bumper)
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 by: bumper - Wed, 11 May 2022 05:33 UTC

Are "Bob the Purist" and "Lennie the Lurker" one and the same?

bumper

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Wed, 11 May 2022 12:33 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 1:33:16 AM UTC-4, bumper wrote:
> Are "Bob the Purist" and "Lennie the Lurker" one and the same?
>
> bumper
Bumper, I am not Lennie the Lurker, unlike what Eric says I enjoy all types of soaring, even motorgliding, but I know and understand that there is difference between pure sailplanes and motorgliders, something that MG pilots hardly ever admit. I am going to make a confession someday that will make them go ballistic, just not at this time. I am a PURIST glider flier, my wife is a Lady Purist glider flier and we both have identical views about the differences in MG"s and Pure gliders. I better get going, gotta get the boat in the water and head out to the deep blue, hope to catch a few Wahoo for dinner tonight. Now I do not fish from a Hobie Cat, that would be a pure form of fishing, rather I fire up the boat and go full throttle with those 900 hp of engines sucking gas. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: jfi...@flash.net (jfitch)
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 by: jfitch - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:09 UTC

Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele are motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks, 500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.
On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Bob,
> > > > Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a motorglider and always self launched.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy,
> > > > I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
> > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either.. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> > > > > Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > 's getting better!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > > > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > > > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > > > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > > > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > > > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > > > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > > > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > > > > > Convenience!
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist
> Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: youngblo...@gmail.com (youngbl...@gmail.com)
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 by: youngbl...@gmail.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 00:28 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 12:09:22 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Bob, I made no implications, simply paraphrased what you said directly: that motorgliders were a threat to your revenue. You then go on to complain about the 3 towplanes and engines for them you have had to buy. To the extent that your clientele are motorgliders, they are saving you from that expense and headache. I've asked directly several times, "how much experience do you have in cross country flight in a motorglider?" I've never received an answer, which is an answer in itself. Just tooling around the gliderport for a sightseeing flight doesn't count. It does not force you to make the planning and decisions required of cross country. I'll ask again, expecting no answer: How much experience in a motorglider cross country? How many 300Ks, 500Ks, 1000Ks? Without that, you are forming your opinions on ignorance and faith - which Ambrose Bierce defined as "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." That pretty well sums up the OP.
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:20:18 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:55:21 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > Reread it again. What I said was "but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket". And again, you originally complained about the lack of tow fees charged to motorgliders, not me.
> > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:33:36 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > Bob,
> > > > > Reread my response - I was perfectly polite (and calm). You must be confusing me with someone else :). And you were the one that brought up the lost tow fees, not me. In fact, I bought a towplane for our glider operation, after I already had a motorglider and always self launched.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramy,
> > > > > I am aware that Bob is simply trolling for controversy, but he is a bit like a train wreck - hard to look away.
> > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 1:57:52 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 11:10:37 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > Eric, myself, and many other MG pilots posting here have extensive cross country experience in both "pure" and motorgliders. I've been flying "pure" gliders since 1968 and motorgliders since 2000. Bob, you have no experience with motorgliders other than watching them from afar. So yes, we continue to ignore your uninformed and ignorant *opinion*. But this post makes clearer, perhaps, the real motivation: tow fees. That is at least rational. A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket. And yes, the places I fly all charge a motorglider launch fee to cover the facilities, between $12 and $20 per launch. Tie down, trailer parking, oxygen, etc. are the same for either. Having seen the financials for my home field, a tow doesn't net the FBO $20 after paying for fuel, towplane maintenance, tow pilot, etc. In fact the private tows are a net loser, and are really just provided as a service, subsidized by rides and instruction.
> > > > > > Mr. Fitch, you need to get a grip on yourself and calm down, you should be more polite when you disagree with someone. For your information I have flown motorgliders both here in the US and abroad. I was introduced to motorgliders many years prior to your entry into the category. Secondly I do not profit from the towplane, I have personally bought three Pawnee's for the purpose of starting and developing a club, which I have and we have been very successful, probably the most successful club in the US since our inception to the sport five years ago, prior to that I flew off my own strip. The towplane engine was new in 2021, I paid for it, I paid for all maintenance and repairs, and any other associated expenses to help our club. I could continue with what I have done for soaring, but I will not ask you what you have done. Have a good evening. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 5/4/2022 4:27 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > 's getting better!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No Bum, keep it going, some of the mg comments have been funnier than Saturday Night Live with Eddie Murphy. I will make one comment on the MG guys remarks, your included, why haven't you mg guys been doing longer and better flights? Seems like a no brainer with that teat that you have to suck if you get low! Oh, I almost forgot Mr. Bum, I might just be your tow pilot soon if things work out, please don't be scared. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > > You've been telling us pilots use motorgliders to go farther and faster than they would in
> > > > > > > > > a "pure" glider, and how they plan and fly so differently than the "pure" glider pilots.
> > > > > > > > > But now it seems you've noticed that's not true, and are wondering why. I'm glad you've
> > > > > > > > > finally realized the two groups of pilots are not nearly as different as you thought. If
> > > > > > > > > you want to meet pilots that really do plan and fly differently from each other, talk to
> > > > > > > > > 1-26 pilots and Nimbus 3 pilots!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Once again: Most pilots buy a motorglider for convenience, not speed and distance. You
> > > > > > > > > know, getting launched where there aren't any towplanes, avoiding that hour-long wait in
> > > > > > > > > the towline, reliably getting home on time, that kind of thing. Convenience, Bob,
> > > > > > > > > Convenience!
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Mr. Fitch, you are the one that needs to re-read your post, you made reference about money going into Bob's pocket, maybe you are forgetting a few things. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Mr Fitch, your implications speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist
Mr. Fitch, I have never stated as you have implied anything about tow money being a threat to my revenue On May5th I asked the question about motorgliders paying a fee for use of the field, maybe you should go back and do your homework prior to making statements about people that are not true. I will make a bet with you, OK? If I made the remark as you have stated I will take a RAS fine and go directly to the suspension arena for 60 days. If you cannot produce the comment as you described, "A Threat To MY Revenue", then you will go directly to RAS jail for 60 days, deal? Frankly speaking Mr. Fitch, you are delusional. Old Bob, The Purist

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: markmoch...@gmail.com (Mark Mocho)
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 by: Mark Mocho - Thu, 12 May 2022 01:09 UTC

How long are you guys going to beat on this dead horse?

Re: It Gets Worse

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Subject: Re: It Gets Worse
From: pdxcolle...@gmail.com (Tom Des)
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 by: Tom Des - Thu, 12 May 2022 01:27 UTC

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:09:05 PM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:
> How long are you guys going to beat on this dead horse?

I'm starting to enjoy it...

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