I have "location" switched off in my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 (Android 11).
However, while browsing through the phone's settings I happened to come
across a couple of things in the "Manage apps" section which puzzle me.
These are Fused Location and Fused Location Provider. Firstly, what do
these do?

In "App info" Fused Location has a Data Usage of 4.1MB. However,
"Restrict data usage" has "Turn off data" set. If I touch "Clear data",
I am offered the choice of Clear cache or Clear all data. "Clear cache"
doesn't do anything obvious. Clear all data, however, warns me:
Delete all data?
All app data including files, setting, accounts, databases,and cache
will be permanently deleted.
So far I haven't confirmed deletion because I don't know what effect it
will have. What will happen if I confirm deletion?

Finally, under "App permissions" it states:
Allowed: Location
Denied: No permissions denied
Touching on "Allowed: location" shows it is set to "Allow all the time".
It is all greyed out and cannot be changed to "Allow only while using
the app" or "Ask every time", or "Deny"

"Fused location provider" seems almost identical. From
<https://developers.google.com/location-context/fused-location-provider>
do I really need these APIs if I have no interest in using any location
services or apps?

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:

> These are Fused Location
> and Fused Location Provider. Firstly, what do these do?

They combine sources of location data such as GPS, WiFi triangulation,
cell-location, (bluetooth beacons?) which have varying levels of precision and
energy cost into a single location provider that apps may, or may not, have
permission to use.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:57:27 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> These are Fused Location
>> and Fused Location Provider. Firstly, what do these do?
>
> They combine sources of location data such as GPS, WiFi triangulation,
> cell-location, (bluetooth beacons?) which have varying levels of precision and
> energy cost into a single location provider that apps may, or may not, have
> permission to use.

Until this very moment, I had never heard of this "fused location" concept.
So I would like to learn from those of you who already know about it.

This is an interesting observation, even as I have shortcuts to the
Activities that keep bluetooth radios & wi-fi location accuracy off &
even though I keep the GPS location off other than when location is required
(such as when running graphical wi-fi debuggers), and even then, the
location is spoofed by default by setting a mock location app in Android 11
developer settings and having that mock location app start on every boot.

On my Samsung Galaxy A32-5G Android 11, I looked for "fused location" stuff.
The Activity is hard to find in my default Android Settings app.

I gave up after a few tries and went to my apk folder's App Manager app.
That found "com.android.location.fused" in /system/priv-ap/FusedLocation
whose data directory is "/data/user_de/0/com.android.location.fused".

Unfortunately, my App Manager reports zero "Activities" defined for that.
And only one service, which was named ".FusedLocationService".

The Permissions (most of which I have apparently blocked) are:
1. android.permission.ACCESS_BACKGROUND_LOCATION (blocked)
2. android.permission.ACCESS_COURCE_LOCATION (blocked)
3. android.permission.ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION (blocked)
4. android.permission.INSTALL_LOCATION_PROVIDER
5. android.permission.INTERACT_ACROSS_USERS_FULL
5. android.permission.UPDATE_DEVICE_STATS

There is one "shared provider", which is "com.android.location.provider.jar"

In summary, that's all I know about it (before googling anyway).
If you know more, please let us all know.

Especially _where_ to find the settings in Android 11 to check it out.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:40:56 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

> These are Fused Location and Fused Location Provider. Firstly, what do
> these do?

Thank you for bringing up fused location so that we can all learn from you.

I had never heard of "fused" location until now, so I looked on my phone
(see my response to Andy on what I found), and then I googled.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+is+com.android.location.fused>

Which found a few hits, one of which is the same question but from 2012.
*What the heck is "Fused Location"?!?!?*
�<https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/what-the-heck-is-fused-location.2039086/>
"(FusedLocationProvider), Fused Location a location service which combines
GPS location and network location to achieve balance between battery
consumption and accuracy."
But that ancient thread wasn't much help since we kind of already knew that.

This article backs up what Andy said is a purpose of the fused location API
*Fused Location Provider API*
<https://developers.google.com/location-context/fused-location-provider/>
"Using the fused location provider API, your app can request the last
known location of the user's device."

While this article shows how to use that api if you're a developer type.
*Using Fused Location API to Fetch Current Location in Android*
�<https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/using-fused-location-api-to-fetch-current-location-in-android/>
"Here, we will show you how to utilize the Fused Position API to acquire
an exact location of your Android device"

This old tutorial explains what it is & how to get the location using it.
*Android Location Fused Provider*
<https://javapapers.com/android/android-location-fused-provider/>
"We need not explicitly choose either GPS or Network location Provider,
as the "Fused Location Provider" automatically chooses the underlying
technology and gives the best location as per the need."

This is an Android Studio Tutorial to test out if you want to use the API.
*Using Fused Location API To Fetch Current Location*
<https://blog.mindorks.com/using-gps-location-manager-in-android-android-tutorial>
(It may be the same as the prior hit as it sounds familiar already).

Beware if you're using it as Google is changing _some_ of the related code.
*FusedLocationProviderApi*
<https://developers.google.com/android/reference/com/google/android/gms/location/FusedLocationProviderApi>
"public interface FusedLocationProviderApi, This interface is deprecated.
Use the GoogleApi-based API FusedLocationProviderClient instead."

In summary, what Andy said was correct, but what I'd like to know is how to
disable it on my phone as I can't imagine ever having a need for it.

GPS is just fine for me (and even then, it's off or spoof 'till needed).

On 24/01/2022 17:15, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:40:56 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> These are Fused Location and Fused Location Provider. Firstly, what do
>> these do?
>
> Thank you for bringing up fused location so that we can all learn from you.

I may have come across this, but as I had no idea what they were for,
it's why I asked here!

> I had never heard of "fused" location until now, so I looked on my phone
> (see my response to Andy on what I found), and then I googled.
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+is+com.android.location.fused>
>
> Which found a few hits, one of which is the same question but from 2012.
> *What the heck is "Fused Location"?!?!?*
> эА <https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/what-the-heck-is-fused-location.2039086/>
> "(FusedLocationProvider), Fused Location a location service which combines
> GPS location and network location to achieve balance between battery
> consumption and accuracy."
> But that ancient thread wasn't much help since we kind of already knew that.

Yes, I'd found that too. Even if it made sense, what was true 9 years
ago isn't necessarily true now.

> This article backs up what Andy said is a purpose of the fused location API
> *Fused Location Provider API*
> <https://developers.google.com/location-context/fused-location-provider/>
> "Using the fused location provider API, your app can request the last
> known location of the user's device."
>
> While this article shows how to use that api if you're a developer type.
> *Using Fused Location API to Fetch Current Location in Android*
> эА <https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/using-fused-location-api-to-fetch-current-location-in-android/>
> "Here, we will show you how to utilize the Fused Position API to acquire
> an exact location of your Android device"
>
> This old tutorial explains what it is & how to get the location using it.
> *Android Location Fused Provider*
> <https://javapapers.com/android/android-location-fused-provider/>
> "We need not explicitly choose either GPS or Network location Provider,
> as the "Fused Location Provider" automatically chooses the underlying
> technology and gives the best location as per the need."
>
> This is an Android Studio Tutorial to test out if you want to use the API.
> *Using Fused Location API To Fetch Current Location*
> <https://blog.mindorks.com/using-gps-location-manager-in-android-android-tutorial>
> (It may be the same as the prior hit as it sounds familiar already).

All the above are for using fused location to find your location, rather
than stop it locating you. Perhaps those skilled in such matters can
work out how to do it from the tutorials, but it's all way above me, I'm
afraid.

> Beware if you're using it as Google is changing _some_ of the related code.
> *FusedLocationProviderApi*
> <https://developers.google.com/android/reference/com/google/android/gms/location/FusedLocationProviderApi>
> "public interface FusedLocationProviderApi, This interface is deprecated.
> Use the GoogleApi-based API FusedLocationProviderClient instead."
>
> In summary, what Andy said was correct, but what I'd like to know is how to
> disable it on my phone as I can't imagine ever having a need for it.

That was my interest too. And whether or not it can be disabled without
doing something that you don't want done. From what I understand, it's
an API which appears to combine in to one API what several were required
for previously. That's perhaps all well and good in terms of efficiency,
but if, for example, you only required one of those APIs to do
something, and could happily disable the others, now, because there's
only a single API combining those functions, you can't disable it
because you require it as you need that previous /single/ function. And,
of course with android, you never completely know what's going on even
though it's open source.

> GPS is just fine for me (and even then, it's off or spoof 'till needed).

Which GPS location spoofer do you use? Some of them seem to have issues
with later versions of android. In any case, if your GPS is turned off,
how does a GPS location spoofer help if the fused location API is doing
something else to obtain your location?

--

Jeff

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:28:54 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

> All the above are for using fused location to find your location, rather
> than stop it locating you. Perhaps those skilled in such matters can
> work out how to do it from the tutorials, but it's all way above me, I'm
> afraid.

My sentiments exactly.
a. I hadn't even _known_ about "fused location services" until you said it
b. When I looked it up, it seems to be what Andy said it was
c. It's a single lookup for an app to get a _combined_ location

I, like you perhaps, do _not_ want my apps having that kind of accuracy.
I can't imagine even _why_ I'd ever want or need that kind of accuracy.
Certainly I don't want that kind of accuracy to be in the hands of hackers.

With just regular GPS, when I look, it already shows me in my bedroom wing.
Do we ever really need greater accuracy than that?

> That was my interest too. And whether or not it can be disabled without
> doing something that you don't want done. From what I understand, it's
> an API which appears to combine in to one API what several were required
> for previously.

I understand where you're going, I think, which is if we can disable that
one API, we can stop the can of worms from getting out to the other apps.

Thanks to you, at least I know it exists as I was ignorant of it prior.
(Ignorance is curable, stupidity isn't; one is the result of the other.)
>> GPS is just fine for me (and even then, it's off or spoof 'till needed).
>
> Which GPS location spoofer do you use? Some of them seem to have issues
> with later versions of android.

I tested every free mock location app and settled in the end on this one.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lexa.fakegps>

While I like that Lexa will randomly move x distance in y time, I would love
if it had the ability to _track_ along a line (say, oh, an Interstate),
which would be a more accurate spoofing than just random movements westward
every ten seconds.

As with you bringing up fused location services, this is a _team_ effort.
If you ever find a spoofing app that _tracks_ a road, let me know about it!

> If your GPS is turned off,
> how does a GPS location spoofer help if the fused location API is doing
> something else to obtain your location?

Good question.

My methodology, I think, circumvents that problem set, but it's a good
question nonetheless since they can get your location _without_ GPS.

My methodology, for what it's worth, goes something like this:
a. No app is allowed to access location when not in use except rare apps
b. All radios are off, by default (gps, bluetooth, NFC & yes, even Wi-Fi)
c. Wi-Fi is set to NOT EVE RECONNECT so Wi-Fi is manually turned on
d. Lexa is set to start on boot & it is the default gps mock location app

There are only two reasons I ever _need_ to turn the GPS radio on.
1. When I'm navigating (duh), and,
2. When I run a graphical cellular or wi-fi debugging app.

On the latter, Google has forced any app that tracks Wi-Fi to also track GPS
(for reasons that confuse the heck out of me as it seems like a bad idea).

So whenever I run Wi-Fi or cellular debuggers, they need to obtain a GPS
location (but, get this, it doesn't matter to the app what location they
get).

Now for some apps that ask for GPS location, such as GasBuddy or SpeedTest,
they truly want that location to give better advice, but almost always they
allow you to provide a zip code or other way to obtain the necessary info.

There's another trick most people don't know about which is that I've
_tested_ thoroughly the Google Maps "turn location on" button versus all
other "turn location on" buttons, and I've had plenty of discussions here
about that where Google pulls some very sleazy tricks.

You can _see_ those sleazy tricks in two ways:
a. Run an Activity Inspector (which shows what Activities were accessed)
b. Or just doublecheck afterward to see what fused location tricks occurred

My experience:
a. The Google "turn location on" pulls some sleazy tricks
b. The others don't.

You can _see_ those sleazy tricks if you use a shortcut _inspector_ trap:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cemique.shortcutwidgets>

Moral of the story is _never_ say yes to _any_ prompt by a Google app for
you to turn on the location, no matter how much Google says you need to.

Just turn location on manually, the normal way, instead of using Google
provided API's.

Note that Google has an _entire_ huge (gms) API which almost exactly copies
the Android API but adds more of this sleazy stuff, which is easily seen if
you use an Activity shortcut & inspector apps such as these below.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.alextern.shortcuthelper>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=rk.android.app.shortcutmaker>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sika524.android.quickshortcut>
etc.

In summary, _thanks_ for bringing up fused location services as my ignorance
was partially cured by looking up the answers to your questions, which I
never found, but we both learned from that edifying effort.

Since Usenet is a team sport, if _others_ find useful information on how to
disable the fused location APIs, please do add value to this conversation.
--
Learning from each other is what Usenet is all about as a team sport.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> I, like you perhaps, do_not_ want my apps having that kind of accuracy.

Android allows you to set on an app-by-app basis whether the app can have coarse
or fine location access always/never/when you open the app/ask each time ...

On 26/01/2022 17:43, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:28:54 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> All the above are for using fused location to find your location, rather
>> than stop it locating you. Perhaps those skilled in such matters can
>> work out how to do it from the tutorials, but it's all way above me, I'm
>> afraid.
>
> My sentiments exactly.
> a. I hadn't even _known_ about "fused location services" until you said it
> b. When I looked it up, it seems to be what Andy said it was
> c. It's a single lookup for an app to get a _combined_ location

I wonder if Google are looking to combine several other single apps into
a single "does it all" app?

> Thanks to you, at least I know it exists as I was ignorant of it prior.
> (Ignorance is curable, stupidity isn't; one is the result of the other.)

It was really just down to luck. If Google hadn't given it such a
strange name - "fused" - I might not have paid any attention to it. If
they'd have called it simply "google location", or "combined location",
or something obvious I might just have scrolled past it without looking
further, and assumed it was not operating because I had turned off
location in the Settings. It makes me wonder if there's anything else in
the system apps list which does more than we might think from its name!

>> Which GPS location spoofer do you use? Some of them seem to have issues
>> with later versions of android.
>
> I tested every free mock location app and settled in the end on this one.
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lexa.fakegps>
>
> While I like that Lexa will randomly move x distance in y time, I would love
> if it had the ability to _track_ along a line (say, oh, an Interstate),
> which would be a more accurate spoofing than just random movements westward
> every ten seconds.
>
> As with you bringing up fused location services, this is a _team_ effort.
> If you ever find a spoofing app that _tracks_ a road, let me know about it!

Noted.

>> If your GPS is turned off,
>> how does a GPS location spoofer help if the fused location API is doing
>> something else to obtain your location?
>
> Good question.
>
> My methodology, I think, circumvents that problem set, but it's a good
> question nonetheless since they can get your location _without_ GPS.
>
> My methodology, for what it's worth, goes something like this:
> a. No app is allowed to access location when not in use except rare apps

+1

> b. All radios are off, by default (gps, bluetooth, NFC & yes, even Wi-Fi)

+1

> c. Wi-Fi is set to NOT EVE RECONNECT so Wi-Fi is manually turned on

+1

> d. Lexa is set to start on boot & it is the default gps mock location app
>
> There are only two reasons I ever _need_ to turn the GPS radio on.
> 1. When I'm navigating (duh), and,
> 2. When I run a graphical cellular or wi-fi debugging app.

I haven't needed to turn it on yet as I have a built-in satnav in my
car. If I ever fire up Google maps, or maybe even Streetview, it'll be
interesting to see if it shows me where I am or near where I am with
"location" turned off. Then we can assume fused location is doing
/something/ to estimate the position of the phone.

> On the latter, Google has forced any app that tracks Wi-Fi to also track GPS
> (for reasons that confuse the heck out of me as it seems like a bad idea).
>
> So whenever I run Wi-Fi or cellular debuggers, they need to obtain a GPS
> location (but, get this, it doesn't matter to the app what location they
> get).
>
> Now for some apps that ask for GPS location, such as GasBuddy or SpeedTest,
> they truly want that location to give better advice, but almost always they
> allow you to provide a zip code or other way to obtain the necessary info.
>
> There's another trick most people don't know about which is that I've
> _tested_ thoroughly the Google Maps "turn location on" button versus all
> other "turn location on" buttons, and I've had plenty of discussions here
> about that where Google pulls some very sleazy tricks.
>
> You can _see_ those sleazy tricks in two ways:
> a. Run an Activity Inspector (which shows what Activities were accessed)
> b. Or just doublecheck afterward to see what fused location tricks occurred
>
> My experience:
> a. The Google "turn location on" pulls some sleazy tricks
> b. The others don't.
>
> You can _see_ those sleazy tricks if you use a shortcut _inspector_ trap:
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cemique.shortcutwidgets>
>
> Moral of the story is _never_ say yes to _any_ prompt by a Google app for
> you to turn on the location, no matter how much Google says you need to.
>
> Just turn location on manually, the normal way, instead of using Google
> provided API's.
>
> Note that Google has an _entire_ huge (gms) API which almost exactly copies
> the Android API but adds more of this sleazy stuff, which is easily seen if
> you use an Activity shortcut & inspector apps such as these below.
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.alextern.shortcuthelper>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=rk.android.app.shortcutmaker>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sika524.android.quickshortcut>
> etc.

Interesting. More for me to look through. :-)

> In summary, _thanks_ for bringing up fused location services as my ignorance
> was partially cured by looking up the answers to your questions, which I
> never found, but we both learned from that edifying effort.
>
> Since Usenet is a team sport, if _others_ find useful information on how to
> disable the fused location APIs, please do add value to this conversation.

We can but hope that someone will look more closely at fused location
and report back - at least before Google changes it again!

--

Jeff

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:32:51 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

> I wonder if Google are looking to combine several other single apps into
> a single "does it all" app?

Absolutely.

I don't know how much you know about "Activities", but you can _see_ them
all if you download any decent freeware Activities shortcut maker app.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=rk.android.app.shortcutmaker>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.alextern.shortcuthelper>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sika524.android.quickshortcut>

It takes a while for you to go through those so I don't expect you to have
done that but if you do go through them, you'll see, as I did, _exactly_
what you surmise has happened.

For example, if you look at the Activities of <com.google.android.gms>,
_many_ of those Activities are the _same_ as in <com.android.settings>,
while there are some that sound similar but do _more_ (sneaky) things!

>> Thanks to you, at least I know it exists as I was ignorant of it prior.
>> (Ignorance is curable, stupidity isn't; one is the result of the other.)
>
> It was really just down to luck. If Google hadn't given it such a
> strange name - "fused" - I might not have paid any attention to it.

Well, I use Usenet as a team sport. I use it to learn. If someone asks a
question, I _try_ to help them out of the sheer goodness of my heart.

In this case, I had to help myself. I wasn't really able to help you.
I figure I can't help anyone else until I can help myself first by knowing
what the topic is actually asking (although, with people like "micky" and
the many iKooks out there, it's not always easy ascertaining their goals).

> If
> they'd have called it simply "google location", or "combined location",
> or something obvious I might just have scrolled past it without looking
> further, and assumed it was not operating because I had turned off
> location in the Settings. It makes me wonder if there's anything else in
> the system apps list which does more than we might think from its name!

Check out this funnily named Activity from the sneaky Google "gms" module:
Termux: am start -n com.google.android.gms/co.g.Space

Here's just _one_ example of "sneaky" stuff that Google "gms" plays on you!
Clear Google Play Services Storage
TARGET = com.google.android.gms/co.g.Space
adb shell am start -n com.google.android.gms/co.g.Space
But clearing this turns on Emergency Location Services even if you had it
off and even if you _always_ had it off and even if you subsequently turn it
off - every time you run that, Google Play Services Storage gets reset back
to what you didn't want it to be reset to (in my case, anyway).

I can go through a few exact examples, but just take it from me since I have
a good heart and since I'm trying to help others, and since I care about
privacy that the best advice is to _avoid_ saying yes to _any_ Google
prompt.

For example, when Google Maps asks for "Location", do not say yes!
Turn location on the normal way _outside_ of a Google Activity.

Google does sneaky things (they should probably be sued for what they do)
that most people are probably completely unaware of that Google is doing.

>> c. Wi-Fi is set to NOT EVER RECONNECT so Wi-Fi is manually turned on
>
> +1

A _lot_ of people won't understand, at first, the inherent beauty of that
setting to have wi-fi _not_ ever reconnect on its own because it's more
complicated than that simple setting.

It's been discussed before but essentially if your home router access points
are broadcast in the clear, then even if you have "_nomap" on them, they're
_still_ picked up by all the idiots out there with Android configured to
upload the Wi-Fi access points to not only Google but Mozilla & others.

The only way to prevent that upload of your AP information (which includes
far more than just the SSID because it has your MAC address and GPS
location!) is to set the router to "HIDE" the access point broadcast.

That doesn't hide anything to a decent sniffer, but what it _does_ do is
prevent _upload_ of your access point to "most" (but not all) databases.

All that is well and good, but... then you have to set your phone to
_remember_ the access point name since your own phone won't find it
otherwise.

The domino effect goes on where that means when you're _not_ connected to
your Wi-Fi (say you're strolling about town), then your phone is constantly
shouting out to _find_ the hidden Wi-Fi that you're not connected to.

So you set the Wi-Fi to not automatically reconnect, and then, once it drops
(as you leave your house), it doesn't keep shouting out your home AP SSID.

>
>> d. Lexa is set to start on boot & it is the default gps mock location app
>>
>> There are only two reasons I ever _need_ to turn the GPS radio on.
>> 1. When I'm navigating (duh), and,
>> 2. When I run a graphical cellular or wi-fi debugging app.
>
> I haven't needed to turn it on yet as I have a built-in satnav in my
> car. If I ever fire up Google maps, or maybe even Streetview, it'll be
> interesting to see if it shows me where I am or near where I am with
> "location" turned off. Then we can assume fused location is doing
> /something/ to estimate the position of the phone.

Good test. Let us know how it works as Usenet is a team sport.
We learn from each other (nobody knows everything alone).

>> Note that Google has an _entire_ huge (gms) API which almost exactly copies
>> the Android API but adds more of this sleazy stuff, which is easily seen if
>> you use an Activity shortcut & inspector apps such as these below.
>> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.alextern.shortcuthelper>
>> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=rk.android.app.shortcutmaker>
>> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sika524.android.quickshortcut>
>> etc.
>
> Interesting. More for me to look through. :-)

I think only two people on this newsgroup have _ever_ mentioned they've
scrolled through these Activities (Anssi Saari and me), so have fun.

There are entire threads here on what you can do by way of shortcuts, where
my favorite shortcuts are those that bring the purposefully deeply buried
Google privacy settings to the fore.

A simple example is the "reset advertising id" Android settings page.
<https://www.ghacks.net/2015/04/20/how-to-reset-your-advertising-id-on-android/>

I keep a shortcut in my shortcuts folder to get to it in a single tap.
com.google.android.gms/.ads.settings.AdsSettingsActivity

There are _many_ more (more deeply buried); but that's a simple example.

>> Since Usenet is a team sport, if _others_ find useful information on how to
>> disable the fused location APIs, please do add value to this conversation.
>
> We can but hope that someone will look more closely at fused location
> and report back - at least before Google changes it again!

Sadly, there are only a handful of intelligent people on this newsgroup,
unfortunately, and even fewer who are purposefully helpful, so it will have
to be one of those rather few indeed.