Good advice, Tom, but the max gear speed in the Stemme is 76 KIAS.
Above that you risk tearing off the gear doors (ask me how I know).

Diving at the ground is tough, but necessary. I was once rolled over by
a rotor while attempting to enter wave and the trees looked really big
on the side of the mountain.

Schmuel gave me the same tour and advice last year when I went to Rifle.
All good information.

Dan
5J

On 6/16/22 11:23, 2G wrote:
> carry extra airspeed in the pattern, A LOT of extra airspeed (fly the pattern at 90 kt - that speed can be bled off quickly on short final).

Additional relevantly-excellent info snipped...

> If such a tail gust DOES hit you, it is vital that you push the nose
> down and dive at the ground. This will feel VERY uncomfortable but
> is the one thing maneuver you have at your disposal. Failure to do
> this WILL result in a stall/spin low to the ground, which is
> non-recoverable, so avoiding this outcome is the top priority (this
> happened to Shmulik). Note that you will already be dropping fast
> when this happens and the ground will be rushing up at you, so your
> instinct, which must be fought, will be to pull up on the stick. An
> important thing to remember is that close to the ground the vertical
> air motion will flatten out and your vertical down rate will cease,
> although you will still have a tailwind. You will also have ground
> effect in your favor (if you are within a wingspan of the ground).
> The area of a microburst is small, and you have a good chance of
> flying out of it.

Just a 'somewhat anal' modification to the excerpted bit below,
most-explicitly the sentence-ending phrase following the "...and...":

> An important thing to remember is that close to the ground the
> vertical air motion will flatten out and your vertical down rate will
> cease,

Murphy's a powerful guy, and inertia is real. Ask the smashed bugs on
your vehicle's windshield how well object-induced flow-diversion worked
for them.

My point in picking this nit isn't to nitpick, but to attempt to do all
I can to encourage fellow glider pilots to analyze the meteorology &
physics of downbursts (aka 'microbursts') ruthlessly-cold-bloodedly,
before willy-nilly accepting some over-simplified and demonstrably false
personal rationale justifying the risks they're taking by indulging in
soaring.

FWIW, I happily, willingly - and, eventually, ruthlessly-coldbloodedly -
enjoyed XC soaring (mostly in the intermountain western U.S.) for 37
years, which included encountering 3 downbursts in landing patterns -
and 'getting away with it.' After the first one (on a
not-real-high-cloudbase, local-survival-only, sort of fall soaring day),
I became a "virga coward!" who actively strove to land only after days
went quiescent...and yet, I "got targeted" two more times. I was luckier
than Shmuel in that each encounter with the downbursts occurred when I
had >2,700' agl ground clearances...with zero subsequent options for
waiting for the situation to improve.

It appears to me Shmuel Dimentstein was less fortunate than I was. (See
also Tom Serkowski's "It happened to me!" downburst-encounter tale
earlier in this thread...from which I concluded Tom came about as
knowingly close to downburst-associated-disaster as any
adrenaline-junkie pilot might wish for...and he ain't that sort of pilot!)

While - in *some* instances - change in the air's direction from
vertically downward to horizontal may save your
downburst-encapsulated-bacon, to therapeutically count on it doing so in
*all* cases is to be accepting a demonstrably false rationale as gospel.
Fervently wishing something will-be true won't make it so. And if that
ruthless-cold-bloodedness helps any Joe Glider Pilot to be less
complacent about his virga/T-storm/downburst-avoiding philosophies, it
will - IMO - improve JGP's future chances of avoiding/surviving any such
encounters.

I did not know Shmuel Dimentstein, but from everything I've read about
him and his accident, I place it into the rare "fate bucket" (as
contrasted to the far larger/more-filled "stupid-pilot-tricks bucket").
A "There but for the grace of God..." sort of accident. May he RIP and
may his family and friends gain what comfort they can from its
circumstances, which appear-to-me to leave his reputation as a pilot
free from after-the-fact "coulda-woulda" second-guessing.

Respectfully,

Bob W.

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 11:35:07 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Good advice, Tom, but the max gear speed in the Stemme is 76 KIAS.
> Above that you risk tearing off the gear doors (ask me how I know).
>
> Diving at the ground is tough, but necessary. I was once rolled over by
> a rotor while attempting to enter wave and the trees looked really big
> on the side of the mountain.
>
> Schmuel gave me the same tour and advice last year when I went to Rifle.
> All good information.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 6/16/22 11:23, 2G wrote:
> > carry extra airspeed in the pattern, A LOT of extra airspeed (fly the pattern at 90 kt - that speed can be bled off quickly on short final).

Of course, you have to follow the max speeds for the particular glider. Still, 76 kts is better than 56. In your case, you could delay gear extension until on final. Yes, you would have to do a last, albeit abbreviated, landing checklist while on final.

Tom

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 12:56:02 PM UTC-6, Bob W. wrote:
> Additional relevantly-excellent info snipped...
> > If such a tail gust DOES hit you, it is vital that you push the nose
> > down and dive at the ground. This will feel VERY uncomfortable but
> > is the one thing maneuver you have at your disposal. Failure to do
> > this WILL result in a stall/spin low to the ground, which is
> > non-recoverable, so avoiding this outcome is the top priority (this
> > happened to Shmulik). Note that you will already be dropping fast
> > when this happens and the ground will be rushing up at you, so your
> > instinct, which must be fought, will be to pull up on the stick. An
> > important thing to remember is that close to the ground the vertical
> > air motion will flatten out and your vertical down rate will cease,
> > although you will still have a tailwind. You will also have ground
> > effect in your favor (if you are within a wingspan of the ground).
> > The area of a microburst is small, and you have a good chance of
> > flying out of it.
> Just a 'somewhat anal' modification to the excerpted bit below,
> most-explicitly the sentence-ending phrase following the "...and...":
> > An important thing to remember is that close to the ground the
> > vertical air motion will flatten out and your vertical down rate will
> > cease,
> Murphy's a powerful guy, and inertia is real. Ask the smashed bugs on
> your vehicle's windshield how well object-induced flow-diversion worked
> for them.
>
> My point in picking this nit isn't to nitpick, but to attempt to do all
> I can to encourage fellow glider pilots to analyze the meteorology &
> physics of downbursts (aka 'microbursts') ruthlessly-cold-bloodedly,
> before willy-nilly accepting some over-simplified and demonstrably false
> personal rationale justifying the risks they're taking by indulging in
> soaring.
>
> FWIW, I happily, willingly - and, eventually, ruthlessly-coldbloodedly -
> enjoyed XC soaring (mostly in the intermountain western U.S.) for 37
> years, which included encountering 3 downbursts in landing patterns -
> and 'getting away with it.' After the first one (on a
> not-real-high-cloudbase, local-survival-only, sort of fall soaring day),
> I became a "virga coward!" who actively strove to land only after days
> went quiescent...and yet, I "got targeted" two more times. I was luckier
> than Shmuel in that each encounter with the downbursts occurred when I
> had >2,700' agl ground clearances...with zero subsequent options for
> waiting for the situation to improve.
>
> It appears to me Shmuel Dimentstein was less fortunate than I was. (See
> also Tom Serkowski's "It happened to me!" downburst-encounter tale
> earlier in this thread...from which I concluded Tom came about as
> knowingly close to downburst-associated-disaster as any
> adrenaline-junkie pilot might wish for...and he ain't that sort of pilot!)
>
> While - in *some* instances - change in the air's direction from
> vertically downward to horizontal may save your
> downburst-encapsulated-bacon, to therapeutically count on it doing so in
> *all* cases is to be accepting a demonstrably false rationale as gospel.
> Fervently wishing something will-be true won't make it so. And if that
> ruthless-cold-bloodedness helps any Joe Glider Pilot to be less
> complacent about his virga/T-storm/downburst-avoiding philosophies, it
> will - IMO - improve JGP's future chances of avoiding/surviving any such
> encounters.
>
> I did not know Shmuel Dimentstein, but from everything I've read about
> him and his accident, I place it into the rare "fate bucket" (as
> contrasted to the far larger/more-filled "stupid-pilot-tricks bucket").
> A "There but for the grace of God..." sort of accident. May he RIP and
> may his family and friends gain what comfort they can from its
> circumstances, which appear-to-me to leave his reputation as a pilot
> free from after-the-fact "coulda-woulda" second-guessing.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Bob W.

Thanks for your comments. I, also, understand momentum and you will need some altitude to do the flare maneuver. I listed the options in order of preference; avoiding microburst is the most important. But, if the shit hits the fan and you are all out of options, pushing the nose down and regaining airspeed is the very last option at your disposal (you are too low to bail out at this point). Sometimes all you can do is a controlled crash, but that is preferable to doing an unsurvivable one.

Tom

If I had manual gear extension, I would delay and carry more speed.
Alas, mine is electrical and takes 10-15 seconds or more to extend.
I'll have to time that...

I do try to keep my speed up above 70 kias in the pattern and the glider
won't fall out of the sky until the low 40s.

Dan
5J

On 6/16/22 13:02, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 11:35:07 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Good advice, Tom, but the max gear speed in the Stemme is 76 KIAS.
>> Above that you risk tearing off the gear doors (ask me how I know).
>>
>> Diving at the ground is tough, but necessary. I was once rolled over by
>> a rotor while attempting to enter wave and the trees looked really big
>> on the side of the mountain.
>>
>> Schmuel gave me the same tour and advice last year when I went to Rifle.
>> All good information.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>> On 6/16/22 11:23, 2G wrote:
>>> carry extra airspeed in the pattern, A LOT of extra airspeed (fly the pattern at 90 kt - that speed can be bled off quickly on short final).
>
> Of course, you have to follow the max speeds for the particular glider. Still, 76 kts is better than 56. In your case, you could delay gear extension until on final. Yes, you would have to do a last, albeit abbreviated, landing checklist while on final.
>
> Tom

Ripping the gear doors off may be the lesser of all evils.

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 11:23:22 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 2:55:51 AM UTC-6, andy l wrote:
> > I've stood on the ground at Rieti and watched thunderstorms over mountains to the west. Then the downdraft from these crossed the site and not long later fired off new storms over the nearer mountains to the east. Then those too produced downdrafts, creating about 30 or 40 knots crosswind on the airfield, coinciding with arrival of the earliest finishers.
> >
> > When people are coming in at maybe 120 knots or more, maybe they don't notice quite how strong the wind is, and only a couple elected to turn gently right, let the wind drift them out a bit, then left and land across the usual runway direction. For a while I was worried one of the world's most experienced coaches was going to either spin from his 210 degree final turn, or undershoot and land on a hangar. Not much airbrake.
> > On Wednesday, 15 June 2022 at 22:03:43 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Sometimes it's appropriate to act in a non-standard way.
> > >
> > > I was running from a thunderstorm in Colorado decades ago and, after
> > > overflying the airport, turned downwind and base when the outflow hit..
> > > On base I was at maximum speed for flaps and landing gear and, rather
> > > than turn final and accept that humongous cross wind, I simply landed
> > > straight ahead, across the runway, infield, taxiway, and apron. I then
> > > flew the glider on the ground until the storm passed.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that Schmuel had any chance of saving himself, just a
> > > reminder that there is more than one way to get safely on the ground.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> Microbursts are extreme cases of wind shear, which have taken down heavy airliners (L1011 at DFW, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_191). This AC was issued by the FAA as a response, in part, to this accident:
> https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC00-54.pdf
> While it is now 34 years old, all the info in it is still very relevant. Microbursts can occur anywhere but are much more prevalent in Colorado and Florida. The time duration of microbursts is short, 10 to 20 minutes, so just because the guy in front of you had normal winds doesn't mean that you will. We fly in conditions during which convection is present, and land most often when dissipation is occurring, the most likely time for microbursts.
>
> You have three primary tools at your disposal to deal with microbursts:
> 1. Avoidance
> 2. Airspeed
> 3. Reaction
> Since the lifetime of microbursts is relatively short, if you have ANY suspicion that it is happening, or about to happen, wait it out. Microbursts likely will kick up dust on the ground, so any indication of blowing dust is a tell. Once you commit to land and the conditions for microburst MAY be present, carry extra airspeed in the pattern, A LOT of extra airspeed (fly the pattern at 90 kt - that speed can be bled off quickly on short final). It would take a tail gust of 50 kt to stall you at this airspeed.
>
> If such a tail gust DOES hit you, it is vital that you push the nose down and dive at the ground. This will feel VERY uncomfortable but is the one thing maneuver you have at your disposal. Failure to do this WILL result in a stall/spin low to the ground, which is non-recoverable, so avoiding this outcome is the top priority (this happened to Shmulik). Note that you will already be dropping fast when this happens and the ground will be rushing up at you, so your instinct, which must be fought, will be to pull up on the stick. An important thing to remember is that close to the ground the vertical air motion will flatten out and your vertical down rate will cease, although you will still have a tailwind. You will also have ground effect in your favor (if you are within a wingspan of the ground). The area of a microburst is small, and you have a good chance of flying out of it.
>
> Tom
Microbursts are not rare here in Colorado. East of the mountains we had many, generally in June or July, during family picnics at my father-in-law's place. Light winds would increase to 50-60 mph for about 20-30 minutes then return to calm. I've found large areas of 1000fpm down on a few occasions north and northeast of our operation in the afternoons, sometimes with dusty outflow visible. An LS-3 was damaged and the pilot seriously injured 6/11/2006 at Buena Vista, Colorado at the end of a four hour flight. According to the AWOS the winds changed both in direction and strength as he approached the airport. This wasn't a strong event, but the pilot encountered 2000fpm down at 700ft agl and couldn't make the airport. I suspect that some of these events might recur in certain areas, but maybe not frequently enough to say there's a pattern, but I know that I started avoiding the area north/northeast of our operation after a couple of encounters and one former member landed out in that area one afternoon and got caught out by the sink.

Not acquainted with Shmulik Dimenstein other than we exchanged a few e-mails when he relocated to Colorado. Did catch his flights online frequently though. Condolences to friends and family.

Frank Whiteley

In this sad case, we have an ASOS record of a gust which firmly puts this accident in the heavy windshear category.

I suspect that a large portion of the stall/spin turning final accidents where the pilot is blamed for insufficient airspeed are really windshear accidents.

In my own case, my yellow triangle 54 kt airspeed was deemed insufficient when the wind at windsock height was 9 kt.

Yep, it wasn't enough for a 28 kt windshear.

The usual approach speed formulas work maybe 99.9% of the time.

Excellent advice. I'd only add one small point: if you're on finals with
brakes already out when you hit that unexpected sink PUT THE AIRBRAKES
AWAY as you push the nose down.

On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 10:23:18 -0700 (PDT), 2G wrote:

> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 2:55:51 AM UTC-6, andy l wrote:
>> I've stood on the ground at Rieti and watched thunderstorms over
>> mountains to the west. Then the downdraft from these crossed the site
>> and not long later fired off new storms over the nearer mountains to
>> the east. Then those too produced downdrafts, creating about 30 or 40
>> knots crosswind on the airfield, coinciding with arrival of the
>> earliest finishers.
>>
>> When people are coming in at maybe 120 knots or more, maybe they don't
>> notice quite how strong the wind is, and only a couple elected to turn
>> gently right, let the wind drift them out a bit, then left and land
>> across the usual runway direction. For a while I was worried one of the
>> world's most experienced coaches was going to either spin from his 210
>> degree final turn, or undershoot and land on a hangar. Not much
>> airbrake.
>> On Wednesday, 15 June 2022 at 22:03:43 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> > Sometimes it's appropriate to act in a non-standard way.
>> >
>> > I was running from a thunderstorm in Colorado decades ago and, after
>> > overflying the airport, turned downwind and base when the outflow
>> > hit.
>> > On base I was at maximum speed for flaps and landing gear and, rather
>> > than turn final and accept that humongous cross wind, I simply landed
>> > straight ahead, across the runway, infield, taxiway, and apron. I
>> > then flew the glider on the ground until the storm passed.
>> >
>> > I'm not saying that Schmuel had any chance of saving himself, just a
>> > reminder that there is more than one way to get safely on the ground.
>> >
>> > Dan 5J
>
> Microbursts are extreme cases of wind shear, which have taken down heavy
> airliners (L1011 at DFW, for example,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_191). This AC was
> issued by the FAA as a response, in part, to this accident:
> https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC00-54.pdf
> While it is now 34 years old, all the info in it is still very relevant.
> Microbursts can occur anywhere but are much more prevalent in Colorado
> and Florida. The time duration of microbursts is short, 10 to 20
> minutes, so just because the guy in front of you had normal winds
> doesn't mean that you will. We fly in conditions during which convection
> is present, and land most often when dissipation is occurring, the most
> likely time for microbursts.
>
> You have three primary tools at your disposal to deal with microbursts:
> 1. Avoidance 2. Airspeed 3. Reaction Since the lifetime of microbursts
> is relatively short, if you have ANY suspicion that it is happening, or
> about to happen, wait it out. Microbursts likely will kick up dust on
> the ground, so any indication of blowing dust is a tell. Once you commit
> to land and the conditions for microburst MAY be present, carry extra
> airspeed in the pattern, A LOT of extra airspeed (fly the pattern at 90
> kt - that speed can be bled off quickly on short final). It would take a
> tail gust of 50 kt to stall you at this airspeed.
>
> If such a tail gust DOES hit you, it is vital that you push the nose
> down and dive at the ground. This will feel VERY uncomfortable but is
> the one thing maneuver you have at your disposal. Failure to do this
> WILL result in a stall/spin low to the ground, which is non-recoverable,
> so avoiding this outcome is the top priority (this happened to Shmulik).
> Note that you will already be dropping fast when this happens and the
> ground will be rushing up at you, so your instinct, which must be
> fought, will be to pull up on the stick. An important thing to remember
> is that close to the ground the vertical air motion will flatten out and
> your vertical down rate will cease, although you will still have a
> tailwind. You will also have ground effect in your favor (if you are
> within a wingspan of the ground). The area of a microburst is small, and
> you have a good chance of flying out of it.
>
> Tom

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Clemen’s analysis of Shmulik’s accident:

https://chessintheair.com/invisible-microburst-kills-expert-glider-pilot

Also, I understand that the NTSB is releasing their preliminary accident report on June 28 around 3 pm eastern time. Here are the instructions on how to find it:

The preliminary report will be available in the NTSB Aviation Accident Database. Please follow these instructions to search for the report:

Visit: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/keyword-search
Click the right side of the search box to open a drop down
Click “Investigations”
Input the accident number CEN22FA240 into the second search window
Click the “Search” button on the right or hit the “Enter” key on your keyboard
Once the search concludes, the accident investigation record will include a link to a PDF copy of the Preliminary Report

The final report will take up to two years to be completed and released.

Jim J6

On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 8:56:45 AM UTC-6, R wrote:
> This is a shocker. He was highly experienced and I hope the riddle is answered so that I (we) can learn from it.
> I had the privilege of joining the regulars at Rifle last June for a short visit to learn and experience mountain flying and Shumlik was the Host and a mentor.
>
> R

Excellent work by Clemen. I believe he explained an incident I had years ago. Luck was with me that day.

I have to ponder his point about the increase risk of fly gliders. While statistics might prove him correct, I feel safer in a glider than I do driving on the interstate…i.e…I-95 between Palm Beach and Miami. Shmulik is the first person I knew personally that perished in a glider crash since 1973.

R

On 6/28/2022 4:06 AM, R wrote:
> Excellent work by Clemen. I believe he explained an incident I had years ago. Luck was with me that day.
>
> I have to ponder his point about the increase risk of fly gliders. While statistics might prove him correct, I feel safer in a glider than I do driving on the interstate…i.e…I-95 between Palm Beach and Miami. Shmulik is the first person I knew personally that perished in a glider crash since 1973.
>
> R
For me, over four decades, several glider pilots I knew, or knew of, have died in glider
accidents. I don't know of any that died while driving a car. There was one that died as a
pedestrian, another that died while hiking, and one of cancer, but glider crashes have
claimed more than those causes combined.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 10:00:01 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 6/28/2022 4:06 AM, R wrote:
> > Excellent work by Clemen. I believe he explained an incident I had years ago. Luck was with me that day.
> >
> > I have to ponder his point about the increase risk of fly gliders. While statistics might prove him correct, I feel safer in a glider than I do driving on the interstate…i.e…I-95 between Palm Beach and Miami. Shmulik is the first person I knew personally that perished in a glider crash since 1973.
> >
> > R
> For me, over four decades, several glider pilots I knew, or knew of, have died in glider
> accidents. I don't know of any that died while driving a car. There was one that died as a
> pedestrian, another that died while hiking, and one of cancer, but glider crashes have
> claimed more than those causes combined.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Yeh, the key word is ‘personally’ known. A few in power planes. None by car.
I soloed a bunch of 14 year olds, no concerns. I wouldn’t let them go out on the highway.
R

On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 3:28:17 PM UTC-7, R wrote:
> Yeh, the key word is ‘personally’ known. A few in power planes. None by car.
> I soloed a bunch of 14 year olds, no concerns. I wouldn’t let them go out on the highway.
> R

On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 3:28:17 PM UTC-7, R wrote:
> Yeh, the key word is ‘personally’ known. A few in power planes. None by car.
> I soloed a bunch of 14 year olds, no concerns. I wouldn’t let them go out on the highway.
> R
Please don’t claim that the driving to the airport is the most dangerous part of flying. Soaring is 2 order of magnitude more dangerous. I can’t recall anyone I know who died in a car accident, yet on average one person I personally knew dies in glider accident every other year.
Perhaps if all the pilots you personally know are those in your gliding club it is quiet possible you get the wrong impression.
This is a wonderful sport, but our statistics sucks.

Ramy

On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 1:00:53 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 3:28:17 PM UTC-7, R wrote:
> > Yeh, the key word is ‘personally’ known. A few in power planes. None by car.
> > I soloed a bunch of 14 year olds, no concerns. I wouldn’t let them go out on the highway.
> > R
> Please don’t claim that the driving to the airport is the most dangerous part of flying. Soaring is 2 order of magnitude more dangerous. I can’t recall anyone I know who died in a car accident, yet on average one person I personally knew dies in glider accident every other year.
> Perhaps if all the pilots you personally know are those in your gliding club it is quiet possible you get the wrong impression.
> This is a wonderful sport, but our statistics sucks.
>
> Ramy
R gets a bit carried away at times and dreams, I must agree Ramy, I can name five people that I have flown with and knew that have perished in a glider. Robbie Robertson, Clem Bowman, Doug Gaines, Maylen Wier, Tom Irlbeck, four of these pilots were from Florida. OBTP

As if we don't have enugh invisible hazards, I ran across this video posted on Facebook in a hang gliding group. It is about wake turbulence behind helicopters.

I have always worried about the outflow of helicopters that are hovering, but not so much classic wake turbulence. Both Rifle and my home airport have some heavy Helo traffic (literally heavy, not busy). just something to be aware of...

https://youtu.be/9YvL62T3Hm0

Rick

On 6/29/22 06:39, RR wrote:
> As if we don't have enugh invisible hazards, I ran across this video posted on Facebook in a hang gliding group. It is about wake turbulence behind helicopters.
>
> I have always worried about the outflow of helicopters that are hovering, but not so much classic wake turbulence. Both Rifle and my home airport have some heavy Helo traffic (literally heavy, not busy). just something to be aware of...
>
> https://youtu.be/9YvL62T3Hm0
>
> Rick
>
>
>
Similar video I posted a long time ago, Blackhawk vs SR20 at an airport
near my home:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8EwvDTJeNs

Well, I race all over the SE since 2003, everyone is still alive. If I applied Ramy math…..I’ve been in gliders since 1973…49 years / 2 = 24 killed in gliders that I would know personally…..nope. Just one.
All my students , hundreds of them, are still ticking. Only one of them actually crashed. A king air pilot.
Maybe it’s because all the pilots I know personally are exceptional pilots. The best of the best.
Anyway, who’s this ‘Purist Bob’ Youngblood smuck insulting everybody? Always writing about how many tows he makes, Trashing instructors for his poor towing skills.
I read he’s nice to the kids. That’s great. Good to know he has a heart.
Again a great job by RR and Clemen….I learned and believe I am a better pilot with that knowledge.

R

On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 1:16:15 PM UTC-4, R wrote:
> Well, I race all over the SE since 2003, everyone is still alive. If I applied Ramy math…..I’ve been in gliders since 1973…49 years / 2 = 24 killed in gliders that I would know personally…...nope. Just one.
> All my students , hundreds of them, are still ticking. Only one of them actually crashed. A king air pilot.
> Maybe it’s because all the pilots I know personally are exceptional pilots. The best of the best.
> Anyway, who’s this ‘Purist Bob’ Youngblood smuck insulting everybody? Always writing about how many tows he makes, Trashing instructors for his poor towing skills.
> I read he’s nice to the kids. That’s great. Good to know he has a heart.
> Again a great job by RR and Clemen….I learned and believe I am a better pilot with that knowledge.
>
> R
Henry, you crack me up, you cannot even get the frequency correct, it's Schmuck you idiot, can't you spell?

Excellent analysis and lessons by Clemens. Everyone should read it. I hope it will make its way to soaring magazines and publications.

Ramy

On Monday, June 27, 2022 at 5:55:06 PM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
> Clemen’s analysis of Shmulik’s accident:
>
> https://chessintheair.com/invisible-microburst-kills-expert-glider-pilot
>
> Also, I understand that the NTSB is releasing their preliminary accident report on June 28 around 3 pm eastern time. Here are the instructions on how to find it:
>
> The preliminary report will be available in the NTSB Aviation Accident Database. Please follow these instructions to search for the report:
>
> Visit: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/keyword-search
> Click the right side of the search box to open a drop down
> Click “Investigations”
> Input the accident number CEN22FA240 into the second search window
> Click the “Search” button on the right or hit the “Enter” key on your keyboard
> Once the search concludes, the accident investigation record will include a link to a PDF copy of the Preliminary Report
>
> The final report will take up to two years to be completed and released.
>
> Jim J6
>
> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 8:56:45 AM UTC-6, R wrote:
> > This is a shocker. He was highly experienced and I hope the riddle is answered so that I (we) can learn from it.
> > I had the privilege of joining the regulars at Rifle last June for a short visit to learn and experience mountain flying and Shumlik was the Host and a mentor.
> >
> > R

We have all the data we need for our glide instruments to alert us to windshear. Groundspeed reducing while airspeed increasing and a sensation of "gaining performance" (a climb to maintain speed or stick feel). Then the inevitable decrease in airspeed gain, continued decrease in groundspeed as a downward sensation occurs. We have the technology even in a simple glide computer to alert us to windshear - and I'd be happy to help develop a feature in LXNAV instruments (since I have one) to make a full volume aural alert populate as the described conditions occur. Up to this very moment - there is recovery hope. After this moment - if you don't have excess ground speed, you simply won't have enough resultant airspeed after this point of the burst.

I've personally experienced these in airliners and almost every time we as a crew are surprised by the conditions that created such a downdraft. In Florida even a tiny little shower shaft is suspect. Thankfully we went around and you are only reading about it now. It didn't look powerful by any standard. It was tiny, could see through the rain shaft, and no outflow dust visible (we're in Florida after all).

If you get a rush of airspeed and have to climb to maintain speed and the groundspeed decreases - one way or another that gain will be soon lost, so lower the nose and regain your groundspeed prior to the event. Our Airbus manages a minimum groundspeed on approach and will increase our approach speed all the way up to nearly flap speed limit to maintain that target groundspeed.

We should do the same. If the wind looks calm: your ground speed shouldn't be lower than triangle speed. If it's 10-20kts down the runway - then your groundspeed should never be less than triangle speed IMO. I don't fly 1/2 the windspeed on top of triangle, I fly 1:1 over triangle speed for wind for this reason is because I want the same Total energy.

I think I'm going to make a special page (until LXNAV can do something) that shows the groundspeed and TAS one on top of each other, just for the pattern. Not that I'll be glancing at that very much, but it'll maybe clue me in if I feel that gain of performance feeling, can glance at the ground vs TAS for a diverging split in the two.

A great visual is made in the following video at 6:03 - but the video is a good idea of just how hazardous downdrafts and microbursts can be:

https://youtu.be/_ogV3VH_qjA

One thing I took away from the discussion was there was no mention of
simply rolling out and landing into whatever is there. Granted Schmuel
was very quickly in an untenable spot but, hopefully the next time
something like this happens at a somewhat higher altitude, the "victim"
may have the choice to land straight ahead rather than wrap it up into a
stall/spin.

Like Bob Hoover said, "Fly it as far into the crash as you can." That
will very likely be survivable whereas a crash likely won't.

Dan
5J

On 6/29/22 23:51, Ramy wrote:
> Excellent analysis and lessons by Clemens. Everyone should read it. I hope it will make its way to soaring magazines and publications.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Monday, June 27, 2022 at 5:55:06 PM UTC-7, J6 aka Airport Bum wrote:
>> Clemen’s analysis of Shmulik’s accident:
>>
>> https://chessintheair.com/invisible-microburst-kills-expert-glider-pilot
>>
>> Also, I understand that the NTSB is releasing their preliminary accident report on June 28 around 3 pm eastern time. Here are the instructions on how to find it:
>>
>> The preliminary report will be available in the NTSB Aviation Accident Database. Please follow these instructions to search for the report:
>>
>> Visit: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/keyword-search
>> Click the right side of the search box to open a drop down
>> Click “Investigations”
>> Input the accident number CEN22FA240 into the second search window
>> Click the “Search” button on the right or hit the “Enter” key on your keyboard
>> Once the search concludes, the accident investigation record will include a link to a PDF copy of the Preliminary Report
>>
>> The final report will take up to two years to be completed and released.
>>
>> Jim J6
>>
>> On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 8:56:45 AM UTC-6, R wrote:
>>> This is a shocker. He was highly experienced and I hope the riddle is answered so that I (we) can learn from it.
>>> I had the privilege of joining the regulars at Rifle last June for a short visit to learn and experience mountain flying and Shumlik was the Host and a mentor.
>>>
>>> R