I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated.. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.

Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.

Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.

Morgan

From the FAR's:

91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.

Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:

(a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.

(b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.

(c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.

(d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated.. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.

On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
>
> Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
>
> Morgan
>
>
>
>
>
> From the FAR's:
>
> 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
>
> Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
>
> (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
>
> (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
>
> (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
>
> (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.

Hi, Morgan-
What about the statement that gliders don't have an electrical system? I thought that was an out for gliders, although I totally agree with you about ADS-B out being much safer. Being seen is very important, especially for gliders.
I think that I will be installing a flasher in my glider also.

Respectfully,
Chris Behm

Thank you very much.
I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
Thanks again.
Jon
On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
>
> Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
>
> Morgan
>
>
>
>
>
> From the FAR's:
>
> 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
>
> Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
>
> (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
>
> (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
>
> (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
>
> (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:12:27 PM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thank you very much.
> I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
> Thanks again.
> Jon
> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
> >
> > Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
> >
> > Morgan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From the FAR's:
> >
> > 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
> >
> > Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
> >
> > (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
> >
> > (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
> >
> > (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
> >
> > (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> > On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.

It's a comfusing situation. The FAR's say "engine-driven electrical system". On its face that excludes the battery-driven electrical systems in gliders. On the other hand I would not like to have to explain that to an administrative law judge.

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:12:27 PM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Thank you very much.
> > I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
> > Thanks again.
> > Jon
> > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
> > >
> > > Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
> > >
> > > Morgan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From the FAR's:
> > >
> > > 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
> > >
> > > Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
> > >
> > > (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
> > >
> > > (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
> > >
> > > (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
> > >
> > > (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> > > On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.
> It's a comfusing situation. The FAR's say "engine-driven electrical system". On its face that excludes the battery-driven electrical systems in gliders. On the other hand I would not like to have to explain that to an administrative law judge.

It's not only a comfusing situation it's confusing situation ( I cannot type worth a darn - or maybe spell worth a darn ).

I've read 14 CFR 91.225 many times and am left uncertain. 91.225 (e) says for aircraft not equiped with an engine-driven electrical system or subsequently certified with one the requirements of 91.225 (d)(2) and (d)(4) do not apply. Note that it does not say "(d)(2) through (d)(4)". It is (d)(3) that requires ADS-B Out "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL".

In addition, 91.225 (e)(2) states that to be exempt from the ADS-B Out requirement the flight must be "Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."

After all this I agree with Morgan. I remain unsure that ADS-B Out is required below 10,000' MSL above Class C airspace but I feel safer and potentially "more legal" having it.

It's that pesky (d)(3) that makes me believe I need ADSB-Out below 10k and above B/C airspace. It very well could have been a typo that was supposed to be "through" instead of "and", but I have no doubt that in the current climate you could get a violation based on (d)(3). Especially if you have a YouTube channel.

Last Sunday I again found myself up next to Fresno Airspace. Glad to have ADSB-Out and all I needed was a call to approach and get a squawk code and I was clear to fly over or through the airspace.

Morgan

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:39:03 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:12:27 PM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Thank you very much.
> > > I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
> > > Thanks again.
> > > Jon
> > > On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
> > > >
> > > > Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
> > > >
> > > > Morgan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From the FAR's:
> > > >
> > > > 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
> > > >
> > > > Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
> > > >
> > > > (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
> > > >
> > > > (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
> > > >
> > > > (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
> > > >
> > > > (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> > > > On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.
> > It's a comfusing situation. The FAR's say "engine-driven electrical system". On its face that excludes the battery-driven electrical systems in gliders. On the other hand I would not like to have to explain that to an administrative law judge.
> It's not only a comfusing situation it's confusing situation ( I cannot type worth a darn - or maybe spell worth a darn ).
>
> I've read 14 CFR 91.225 many times and am left uncertain. 91.225 (e) says for aircraft not equiped with an engine-driven electrical system or subsequently certified with one the requirements of 91.225 (d)(2) and (d)(4) do not apply. Note that it does not say "(d)(2) through (d)(4)". It is (d)(3) that requires ADS-B Out "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL".
>
> In addition, 91.225 (e)(2) states that to be exempt from the ADS-B Out requirement the flight must be "Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
>
> After all this I agree with Morgan. I remain unsure that ADS-B Out is required below 10,000' MSL above Class C airspace but I feel safer and potentially "more legal" having it.

You could ask your local FSDO and, if you get an answer you like, record
the date and time of the conversation and the name and position of the
individual who gave you that answer. Because... You can easily get
another answer from a different FSDO.

Dan
5J

On 6/15/22 16:28, Morgan Hall wrote:
> It's that pesky (d)(3) that makes me believe I need ADSB-Out below 10k and above B/C airspace. It very well could have been a typo that was supposed to be "through" instead of "and", but I have no doubt that in the current climate you could get a violation based on (d)(3). Especially if you have a YouTube channel.
>
> Last Sunday I again found myself up next to Fresno Airspace. Glad to have ADSB-Out and all I needed was a call to approach and get a squawk code and I was clear to fly over or through the airspace.
>
> Morgan
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:39:03 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:12:27 PM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Thank you very much.
>>>> I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
>>>> Thanks again.
>>>> Jon
>>>> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
>>>>>
>>>>> Morgan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From the FAR's:
>>>>>
>>>>> 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
>>>>>
>>>>> (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
>>>>>
>>>>> (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
>>>>>
>>>>> (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.
>>> It's a comfusing situation. The FAR's say "engine-driven electrical system". On its face that excludes the battery-driven electrical systems in gliders. On the other hand I would not like to have to explain that to an administrative law judge.
>> It's not only a comfusing situation it's confusing situation ( I cannot type worth a darn - or maybe spell worth a darn ).
>>
>> I've read 14 CFR 91.225 many times and am left uncertain. 91.225 (e) says for aircraft not equiped with an engine-driven electrical system or subsequently certified with one the requirements of 91.225 (d)(2) and (d)(4) do not apply. Note that it does not say "(d)(2) through (d)(4)". It is (d)(3) that requires ADS-B Out "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL".
>>
>> In addition, 91.225 (e)(2) states that to be exempt from the ADS-B Out requirement the flight must be "Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
>>
>> After all this I agree with Morgan. I remain unsure that ADS-B Out is required below 10,000' MSL above Class C airspace but I feel safer and potentially "more legal" having it.

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 9:50:15 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> You could ask your local FSDO and, if you get an answer you like, record
> the date and time of the conversation and the name and position of the
> individual who gave you that answer. Because... You can easily get
> another answer from a different FSDO.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 6/15/22 16:28, Morgan Hall wrote:
> > It's that pesky (d)(3) that makes me believe I need ADSB-Out below 10k and above B/C airspace. It very well could have been a typo that was supposed to be "through" instead of "and", but I have no doubt that in the current climate you could get a violation based on (d)(3). Especially if you have a YouTube channel.
> >
> > Last Sunday I again found myself up next to Fresno Airspace. Glad to have ADSB-Out and all I needed was a call to approach and get a squawk code and I was clear to fly over or through the airspace.
> >
> > Morgan
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:39:03 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> >> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:12:27 PM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Thank you very much.
> >>>> I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
> >>>> Thanks again.
> >>>> Jon
> >>>> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Morgan
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From the FAR's:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> >>>>> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.
> >>> It's a comfusing situation. The FAR's say "engine-driven electrical system". On its face that excludes the battery-driven electrical systems in gliders. On the other hand I would not like to have to explain that to an administrative law judge.
> >> It's not only a comfusing situation it's confusing situation ( I cannot type worth a darn - or maybe spell worth a darn ).
> >>
> >> I've read 14 CFR 91.225 many times and am left uncertain. 91.225 (e) says for aircraft not equiped with an engine-driven electrical system or subsequently certified with one the requirements of 91.225 (d)(2) and (d)(4) do not apply. Note that it does not say "(d)(2) through (d)(4)". It is (d)(3) that requires ADS-B Out "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL".
> >>
> >> In addition, 91.225 (e)(2) states that to be exempt from the ADS-B Out requirement the flight must be "Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
> >>
> >> After all this I agree with Morgan. I remain unsure that ADS-B Out is required below 10,000' MSL above Class C airspace but I feel safer and potentially "more legal" having it.

Regardless of the ADS-B requirement, you will still need a transponder (unless otherwise authorized by ATC) if you overfly class B or C airspace below 10,000 ft and above their ceiling per 14 CFR 215 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215):

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

Tom

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 1:55:34 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 9:50:15 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > You could ask your local FSDO and, if you get an answer you like, record
> > the date and time of the conversation and the name and position of the
> > individual who gave you that answer. Because... You can easily get
> > another answer from a different FSDO.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 6/15/22 16:28, Morgan Hall wrote:
> > > It's that pesky (d)(3) that makes me believe I need ADSB-Out below 10k and above B/C airspace. It very well could have been a typo that was supposed to be "through" instead of "and", but I have no doubt that in the current climate you could get a violation based on (d)(3). Especially if you have a YouTube channel.
> > >
> > > Last Sunday I again found myself up next to Fresno Airspace. Glad to have ADSB-Out and all I needed was a call to approach and get a squawk code and I was clear to fly over or through the airspace.
> > >
> > > Morgan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:39:03 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:12:27 PM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> Thank you very much.
> > >>>> I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
> > >>>> Thanks again.
> > >>>> Jon
> > >>>> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>> Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Morgan
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> From the FAR's:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> > >>>>> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.
> > >>> It's a comfusing situation. The FAR's say "engine-driven electrical system". On its face that excludes the battery-driven electrical systems in gliders. On the other hand I would not like to have to explain that to an administrative law judge.
> > >> It's not only a comfusing situation it's confusing situation ( I cannot type worth a darn - or maybe spell worth a darn ).
> > >>
> > >> I've read 14 CFR 91.225 many times and am left uncertain. 91.225 (e) says for aircraft not equiped with an engine-driven electrical system or subsequently certified with one the requirements of 91.225 (d)(2) and (d)(4) do not apply. Note that it does not say "(d)(2) through (d)(4)". It is (d)(3) that requires ADS-B Out "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL".
> > >>
> > >> In addition, 91.225 (e)(2) states that to be exempt from the ADS-B Out requirement the flight must be "Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
> > >>
> > >> After all this I agree with Morgan. I remain unsure that ADS-B Out is required below 10,000' MSL above Class C airspace but I feel safer and potentially "more legal" having it.
> Regardless of the ADS-B requirement, you will still need a transponder (unless otherwise authorized by ATC) if you overfly class B or C airspace below 10,000 ft and above their ceiling per 14 CFR 215 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215):
>
> (4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
>
> Tom

That's how I read 91.215 too Tom. Just stay away or ask permission I guess..

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 2:59:39 PM UTC-6, jp wrote:
> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 1:55:34 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 9:50:15 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > You could ask your local FSDO and, if you get an answer you like, record
> > > the date and time of the conversation and the name and position of the
> > > individual who gave you that answer. Because... You can easily get
> > > another answer from a different FSDO.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > > On 6/15/22 16:28, Morgan Hall wrote:
> > > > It's that pesky (d)(3) that makes me believe I need ADSB-Out below 10k and above B/C airspace. It very well could have been a typo that was supposed to be "through" instead of "and", but I have no doubt that in the current climate you could get a violation based on (d)(3). Especially if you have a YouTube channel.
> > > >
> > > > Last Sunday I again found myself up next to Fresno Airspace. Glad to have ADSB-Out and all I needed was a call to approach and get a squawk code and I was clear to fly over or through the airspace.
> > > >
> > > > Morgan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:39:03 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> > > >> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> > > >>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:12:27 PM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>> Thank you very much.
> > > >>>> I did ask more than one CFI-G and each time I was told "Gliders don't have electrical systems." Interesting that aircraft flying above 10,000 must have ADS-B, but gliders only need it up to 10,000 over Class C.
> > > >>>> Thanks again.
> > > >>>> Jon
> > > >>>> On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:46 AM UTC-7, mor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>> Not a stupid question, the FARs are confusing as hell. I know someone that went round and round with the FAA trying to understand the wording of a FAR describing overflight of Class C prior to 2020 and the FSDO reps struggled just as much. My understanding and one reason I equipped with ADSB Out is that below 10k you must have ADSB-Out to overfly Class C. (91.225 d3) Since Santa Barbara and Fresno Class C airspace are both areas that I routinely fly near, I opted to upgrade to ADSB-Out and it's helped me on numerous flights. More importantly, I don't have to worry about my interpretation of the FARs and I'm much more visible to power traffic.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Gliders into Class A is an interesting one. I think 91.135 Section D (ATC Authorizations) is the magic bullet, but since Class A operations are supposed to be conducted under Instrument Flight Rules, that's a big can of worms. If you look at a Letter of Agreement for a Wave Window, it typically defines the boundaries and the rules for opening the window. They don't seem to magically transform the airspace into Class E though. They seem to just be a very specific authorization by a controlling agency for access into Class A and that doesn't even require an Instrument Rating.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Morgan
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> From the FAR's:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 91.135 Operations in Class A airspace.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> (a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> (b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> (c) Transponder requirement. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> (d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
> > > >>>>> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM UTC-7, jonatha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>> I have a stupid question, like all my questions. Is a glider required to have ADS-B out to fly over Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet, above that not required? I have also been told that one can get clearance into Class A without ADS-B TIS or any ADS-B out as long as the pilot is instrument-rated. Glider is transponder mode S equiped.
> > > >>> It's a comfusing situation. The FAR's say "engine-driven electrical system". On its face that excludes the battery-driven electrical systems in gliders. On the other hand I would not like to have to explain that to an administrative law judge.
> > > >> It's not only a comfusing situation it's confusing situation ( I cannot type worth a darn - or maybe spell worth a darn ).
> > > >>
> > > >> I've read 14 CFR 91.225 many times and am left uncertain. 91.225 (e) says for aircraft not equiped with an engine-driven electrical system or subsequently certified with one the requirements of 91.225 (d)(2) and (d)(4) do not apply. Note that it does not say "(d)(2) through (d)(4)". It is (d)(3) that requires ADS-B Out "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL".
> > > >>
> > > >> In addition, 91.225 (e)(2) states that to be exempt from the ADS-B Out requirement the flight must be "Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."
> > > >>
> > > >> After all this I agree with Morgan. I remain unsure that ADS-B Out is required below 10,000' MSL above Class C airspace but I feel safer and potentially "more legal" having it.
> > Regardless of the ADS-B requirement, you will still need a transponder (unless otherwise authorized by ATC) if you overfly class B or C airspace below 10,000 ft and above their ceiling per 14 CFR 215 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215):
> >
> > (4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
> >
> > Tom
> That's how I read 91.215 too Tom. Just stay away or ask permission I guess.

I confirmed that by talking to an operations specialist at the Spokane FSDO.. You need ADS-B and, of course, the transponder, when flying above class B and C and below 10kft. Yes, this may be a narrow window, but it could be the one you need to get home (i.e. Minden - been there, done that).
Tom