I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
business.

I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
but still costs.

One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

TIA

In article <XnsAE34B10C82067Borisinvalidinvalid@144.76.35.252>, Boris
<Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
> business.
>
> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
> but still costs.

yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
> about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
> Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

that is correct. facebook owns whatsapp.

> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

a facebook account is not needed, and if you don't have one, facebook
will create a shadow account for you, if they haven't already.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

it is true.

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

using whatsapp is free. they make their money by collecting and
monetizing your data. you are the product being sold. note that the
*contents* of your messages remain private.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:040220222042498014%nospam@nospam.invalid:

> In article <XnsAE34B10C82067Borisinvalidinvalid@144.76.35.252>, Boris
> <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others
>> outside of the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and
>> England. I'd like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is
>> for personal use, not business.
>>
>> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is
>> cheaper, but still costs.
>
> yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

voice when international

>
>> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was
>> reading about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal
>> information with Facebook for advertising purposes, even with
>> non-business accounts.
>
> that is correct. facebook owns whatsapp.
>
>> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one
>> have to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?
>
> a facebook account is not needed, and if you don't have one, facebook
> will create a shadow account for you, if they haven't already.
>
>> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with
>> Facebook?
>
> it is true.
>
>> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats),
>> free?
>
> using whatsapp is free. they make their money by collecting and
> monetizing your data. you are the product being sold. note that the
> *contents* of your messages remain private.
>

What I thought.

On Fri, 04 Feb 2022 20:42:49 -0500, nospam wrote:

> yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

Mine is T-Mobile which supposedly charges 20 cents per minute to/from the
USA from/to Europe (Germany, in my case); but in reality, they don't seem to
charge anything across the pond when I call my family who is on the same
family plan.

They _say_ they will charge 20 cents a minute even if both lines are on my
family plan, but from my experience, they don't charge anything.

> that is correct. facebook owns whatsapp.

Nonetheless, all the WhatApp calls to the younger relatives in Europe are
free, while the older ones (on POTS lines) require Ooma which is somewhere
around 2 cents per minute or so (I don't check such things anymore).

> a facebook account is not needed, and if you don't have one, facebook
> will create a shadow account for you, if they haven't already.

I don't even have contacts where I authored a thread, somewhere, that all
you need is the account and, with tricks, you can dial anyone anywhere.

We can dig it up if micky (aka Boris) needs that information.
(This micky has more aliases than Rod Speed, but you know that already.)
>> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?
>
> it is true.

There was a flap about some of that but didn't WhatsApp back down?
(We could dig it up but I wouldn't take anything nospam says as correct.)

>> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?
>
> using whatsapp is free. they make their money by collecting and
> monetizing your data. you are the product being sold. note that the
> *contents* of your messages remain private.

That's why I make sure WhatsApp has _zero_ contacts.

All WhatsApp gets to know is just enough information to contact me when the
phone rings... and just enough information to contact the few people in
Europe that I call - where _none_ of them are in my contacts (and never will
be because I don't even have a contacts sqlite database for privacy
reasons).

Hope this bit of added detail helps the OP micky.

Am 05.02.22 um 02:24 schrieb Boris:
> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp.

If you want to chat with people WhatsApp has the highest penetration
among mobile-users in Europe and it is platform-independent.

You can use them like any other messenger in the US. You can even use
them to make phone calls as long as the other side uses WhatsApp too.

Signal and Telegram are also popular and can be used like WhatsApp.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 05.02.22 um 02:42 schrieb nospam:
> In article <XnsAE34B10C82067Borisinvalidinvalid@144.76.35.252>, Boris
> <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
>> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
>> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
>> business.
>>
>> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
>> but still costs.
>
> yikes. what kind of plan charges $2/minute for voice calls???

That is normal for overseas calls and roaming calls abroad. Flat
arrangements are probably less available and less popular than in Europe
where countries are much smaller. And within the EU calls are domestic
anyway as well as data usage.

In most cases ist is considerably cheaper to use VOIP with WhatsApp or
FaceTime or other clients.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On 2022-02-05 02:24, Boris wrote:
> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
> business.
>
> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
> but still costs.
>
> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
> about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
> Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

True, Whatsapp is owned by Facebook.

>
> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

No, not needed. Facebook probably has a shadow account on you, but they
may have or not an association between your name and your mobile phone
number.

For example, I have a Facebook account on the computer, but I keep my
phone number out of my profile. So far, they haven't figured it out.
Also, I am careful not to have the Facebook app installed in the phone.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Possibly. In Europe that is touchy, they can't, legally. I'm unsure of
the current situation in the USA.

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

Everything is "gratis". Free as in freedom, no.

The advantage of WhatsApp is that its market penetration here is huge.
In Spain, where I live, you can assume that every body has "wasap". I
have other apps, but none of the people I know use it, even when I know
they also have other apps (in some apps, you see the other contacts as
listed).

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I know nothing about voice/text/video communicating with others outside of
> the U.S., and I'd like to do so with people in Germany and England. I'd
> like to text, send pics, and do video chats. This is for personal use, not
> business.
>
> I have ATT, and the charge is $2.00 per minute for voice. Data is cheaper,
> but still costs.

WhatsApp uses an Internet connection, i.e. it either uses mobile data
or Wi-Fi, so no normal voice charges.

> One of the people I need to communicate with uses WhatsApp. I was reading
> about WhatsApp and it says that it shares personal information with
> Facebook for advertising purposes, even with non-business accounts.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Don't fall for the 'WhatsApp collects and sells your personal
information!' fear-mongering, which normally comes from people who do
not use and never have used WhatsApp.

In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.

Guess what? They don't!

The only information they have is:

1. *A* 'name'.
Can be your real name - more handy for your potential contacts -, but
doesn't have to be.

2. *A* mobile number.
Can be your normal/usual mobile number - more handy for your
potential contacts -, but doesn't have to be.
Any mobile and even 'landline' number which is for you to use, can be
used for WhatsApp.
It's just an identifier, it's only used during setup, not for normal
use.

3. Optionally - if you want 2-Step Verification - *an* e-mail address.
Can be your normal/usual e-mail address, but doesn't have to be.
Actually it's probably better to use an e-mail address other than
your normal/usual e-mail address.

Any normal user will probably use their real name and normal mobile
number, because there's no reason for the fear-mongering/FUD. I do, all
my contacts do and all other WhatsApp users I know do.

> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

No. I also have no Facebook account.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Some people claim that WhatsApp users have 'shadow' Facebook accounts,
but if such an animal exists, it can only happen if you have provided
information which enables Facebook to create such an account, which
isn't the case for a normal WhatsApp account.

Of course if you *have* created a Facebook account with the same
information as your WhatApp account, Facebook could link the two
together, but if you haven't, they can't.

Bottom line: *If* there is such a thing as a 'shadow' Facebook
account, *you* can't use it - because you lack the needed login
information - and *they* can't, because there's no information for them
to (a)buse. Not real useful, is it!?

FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

Yes.

On 2022-02-06 20:26, Frank Slootweg wrote:

....

> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).

Same here.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Am 06.02.22 um 22:15 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> On 2022-02-06 20:26, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
>> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
>> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).
>
> Same here.

Good for both of you.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

In article <stpau1.co8.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?
>
> Don't fall for the 'WhatsApp collects and sells your personal
> information!' fear-mongering, which normally comes from people who do
> not use and never have used WhatsApp.

very much false. such claims come from people who are deeply familiar
with the various ways that people can be tracked online, and it's not
just facebook/whatsapp that's doing it either.

> In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.
>
> Guess what? They don't!

your guess is wrong. they very definitely do. that's how they make
money.

> The only information they have is:

the three you list below are only a tiny portion of what they have.

> 1. *A* 'name'.
> Can be your real name - more handy for your potential contacts -, but
> doesn't have to be.

it can be a fake name, but that doesn't actually matter.

> 2. *A* mobile number.
> Can be your normal/usual mobile number - more handy for your
> potential contacts -, but doesn't have to be.
> Any mobile and even 'landline' number which is for you to use, can be
> used for WhatsApp.
> It's just an identifier, it's only used during setup, not for normal
> use.

the phone number provided *is* an identifier and is used to track what
you do.

a name/address can easily be obtained via a reverse lookup from various
sources.

additional information can be obtained if the number is used elsewhere,
such as a site where you bought something (with a real name, address &
payment info) and people you message who have that number in their
contacts.

> 3. Optionally - if you want 2-Step Verification - *an* e-mail address.
> Can be your normal/usual e-mail address, but doesn't have to be.
> Actually it's probably better to use an e-mail address other than
> your normal/usual e-mail address.

an email address is additional data that can be used to track people,
and if it's used elsewhere, which it almost certainly is, then
additional information can be obtained from those services.

in addition to the above, facebook also knows a lot more, including
device info, location data, ip addresses, message metadata (but not
contents) and more, all of which can easily be cross-linked to data
obtained elsewhere, forming a fairly detailed profile.

they also know who your cell provider is and can *easily* obtain a
name, address and other information. cell carriers hand that info out
almost like candy.

they know many of the *other* apps you use on the mobile device because
those other apps link the facebook sdk and/or use the same ip address
and/or location data.

they know what you do on other devices via websites with facebook
tracking pixels and/or uses facebook authentication to log in. now they
know about your browsing habits, plus cross-site cookies can link to
quite a bit more. although not common, some desktop apps link to a
facebook sdk.

> Some people claim that WhatsApp users have 'shadow' Facebook accounts,
> but if such an animal exists, it can only happen if you have provided
> information which enables Facebook to create such an account, which
> isn't the case for a normal WhatsApp account.

that is very much false.

shadow accounts definitely exist.

mark zuckerberg admitted that when testifying to congress, although he
was highly deceptive about what they're used for.

facebook will automatically create a shadow account any time an actual
account does not exist, potentially to be merged with a real account if
it's determined that they're the same person, which is not difficult.

> Of course if you *have* created a Facebook account with the same
> information as your WhatApp account, Facebook could link the two
> together, but if you haven't, they can't.

oh yes they very much can, and do.

the more they know, the more money they can make selling ads against
the data.

On 6 Feb 2022 19:26:48 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> WhatsApp uses an Internet connection, i.e. it either uses mobile data
> or Wi-Fi, so no normal voice charges.

While I'm sure that's perfectly correct, I remember, somewhere, in the past
perhaps, that T-Mobile told me they count calls done over Wi-Fi (using Wi-Fi
calling though, and not a third party VOIP app per se) as chargeable phone
calls.

Now I don't get charged for any calls so I don't delve into it, but is that
memory of mine correct that they "can" charge for Wi-Fi calls done between
your router and your phone and then onto the Internet through a T-Mobile
phone?

> Don't fall for the 'WhatsApp collects and sells your personal
> information!' fear-mongering, which normally comes from people who do
> not use and never have used WhatsApp.

I don't know what they collect, but if you allow access to your contacts,
which is hard not to (ask me how I know), then they have at least that.

Plus all the contacts of the people you communicate with.

> In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.

Don't most people give them the entirety of what is in their contacts?
>
> Guess what? They don't!
>
> The only information they have is:
>
> 1. *A* 'name'.
> Can be your real name - more handy for your potential contacts -, but
> doesn't have to be.
>
> 2. *A* mobile number.
> Can be your normal/usual mobile number - more handy for your
> potential contacts -, but doesn't have to be.
> Any mobile and even 'landline' number which is for you to use, can be
> used for WhatsApp.
> It's just an identifier, it's only used during setup, not for normal
> use.
>
> 3. Optionally - if you want 2-Step Verification - *an* e-mail address.
> Can be your normal/usual e-mail address, but doesn't have to be.
> Actually it's probably better to use an e-mail address other than
> your normal/usual e-mail address.
>
> Any normal user will probably use their real name and normal mobile
> number, because there's no reason for the fear-mongering/FUD. I do, all
> my contacts do and all other WhatsApp users I know do.

I need to try to re-install Whatsapp to see if it will take a completely
fake set of credentials WITHOUT asking for a verification pingback.

Does it?

>> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
>> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?
>
> No. I also have no Facebook account.

Did you see their plummeting sales figures recently?

On 2022-02-06 23:55, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2022 19:26:48 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>> WhatsApp uses an Internet connection, i.e. it either uses mobile data
>> or Wi-Fi, so no normal voice charges.
>
> While I'm sure that's perfectly correct, I remember, somewhere, in the past
> perhaps, that T-Mobile told me they count calls done over Wi-Fi (using Wi-Fi
> calling though, and not a third party VOIP app per se) as chargeable phone
> calls.
>
> Now I don't get charged for any calls so I don't delve into it, but is that
> memory of mine correct that they "can" charge for Wi-Fi calls done between
> your router and your phone and then onto the Internet through a T-Mobile
> phone?

Because you are using the official phone calling tool that tells the
provider that you are doing a phone call. If you use any other app, such
as whatsapp, to do the call, they can't charge for it.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 01:53:19 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Because you are using the official phone calling tool that tells the
> provider that you are doing a phone call. If you use any other app, such
> as whatsapp, to do the call, they can't charge for it.

Thank you Carlos, first for being an adult in your response (hence, I will
return the favor, as I always do), and secondly for answering the question.

In essence, we can summarize for the OP that it's not so much the Wi-Fi that
keeps the call free with WhatsApp (becuase T-Mobile _can_ charge for a Wi-Fi
call), but the VOIP app itself (which also uses Wi-Fi).

Both use Wi-Fi.
Both use the Internet.
But one uses the "phone app" while the other uses a "whatsapp" app.

Thanks where I love to learn on Usenet given Usenet is a team sport.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.
>
> Guess what? They don't!
>
> The only information they have is:

They also have access to:

4. Your contacts. Last time I ran it on Android, WhatsApp refused to run
without contacts access. On iOS Apple says it has to run even if contacts
access is refused, so it just shows a wall of phone numbers instead of
names.

It uploads these contacts to the mothership, so they know everyone you talk
to:
https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-upload/?lang=en
(they claim contacts upload is optional - I've never seen an opt-out, beyond
barring access to contacts at OS level)

5. Your connection metadata. Who you talk to, when, for how long. Even if
they can't read your messages they get a pretty good idea of who is
important to you.

> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).

They haven't monetised it in a way you can see - they have tried to link up
the WhatsApp and Facebook userbases, but been frowned upon by regulators:

<quote>
In January 2021, WhatsApp announced an update to its Privacy Policy which
states that WhatsApp would collect the metadata of users and share it with
Facebook and its "family of companies" starting in February 2021.[91]
Previously, users could opt-out of such data sharing, but this will no
longer be an option. The new policy will not fully apply within the EU, in
order to comply with the GDPR.[92] The new policy will not allow WhatsApp to
see or send messages, which are still end-to-end encrypted, but it will
allow Facebook to see data such as what phone and operating system a user
has, the user's time zone, IP address, profile picture, status, phone
number, app usage, and all of the contacts which are stored in WhatsApp.[93]
</quote>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features

You can be sure they didn't pay $19.3 billion out of philanthropy.

Theo

Am 05.02.22 um 02:24 schrieb Boris:
> I don't have any social media accounts, including Facebook. Does one have
> to have a Facebook account to use WhatsApp?

No.

> Is it true that WhatsApp will share my personal information with Facebook?

Yes.

> Is anything that WhatsApp is used for (text, pics, video chats), free?

Yes. No cash out but you will pay. Sooner or later.

> TIA

Your welcome.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > In order to be *able* to collect/sell 'your personal information',
> > WhatsApp must *have* (access to) such information.
> >
> > Guess what? They don't!
> >
> > The only information they have is:
>
> They also have access to:
>
> 4. Your contacts. Last time I ran it on Android, WhatsApp refused to run
> without contacts access.

Not that it matters - see below -, but I can run WhatsApp without the
Contacts permission. It of course is needed if you want to 'import' from
or 'export' to your phone contacts

> On iOS Apple says it has to run even if contacts
> access is refused, so it just shows a wall of phone numbers instead of
> names.
>
> It uploads these contacts to the mothership, so they know everyone you talk
> to:
> https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-upload/?lang=en
> (they claim contacts upload is optional - I've never seen an opt-out, beyond
> barring access to contacts at OS level)

Nope. Not "Your contacts.", but your *WhatsApp* contacts. Duh!

See the "More information about contact upload for people who do not
use WhatsApp can be found here." in your reference.

N.B. My WhatsApp account info (access.html) indeed shows my WhatsApp
contacts (by phone number), but no others.

> 5. Your connection metadata. Who you talk to, when, for how long. Even if
> they can't read your messages they get a pretty good idea of who is
> important to you.

The point is whether they share that data with Facebook/rest-of-Meta.

> > FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
> > WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
> > WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).
>
> They haven't monetised it in a way you can see - they have tried to link up
> the WhatsApp and Facebook userbases, but been frowned upon by regulators:

Yes, I'm in the EU, GDPR and all that. For the European Region,
WhatsApp's EEA (European Economic Area) Privacy Policy applies:

<https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/privacy-policy-eea>

While browsing, I'm quite sure I saw a part where it says that in the
European Region, WhatsApp does *not* (yet) share data with other Meta
companies. But I can no longer find it. Bummer! :-(

> <quote>
> In January 2021, WhatsApp announced an update to its Privacy Policy which
> states that WhatsApp would collect the metadata of users and share it with
> Facebook and its "family of companies" starting in February 2021.[91]
> Previously, users could opt-out of such data sharing, but this will no
> longer be an option. The new policy will not fully apply within the EU, in
> order to comply with the GDPR.[92] The new policy will not allow WhatsApp to
> see or send messages, which are still end-to-end encrypted, but it will
> allow Facebook to see data such as what phone and operating system a user
> has, the user's time zone, IP address, profile picture, status, phone
> number, app usage, and all of the contacts which are stored in WhatsApp.[93]
> </quote>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features
>
> You can be sure they didn't pay $19.3 billion out of philanthropy.

Of course, but my comments for Boris' WhatsApp-only scenario are that
WhatsApp/Facebook cannot 'monetize' data which they *do not have*.

Of course *if* the WhatsApp user *does* have a Facebook account, it's
a completely different ball game and all bets are off. Duh!

On 07 Feb 2022 10:27:04 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

> They also have access to:
>
> 4. Your contacts. Last time I ran it on Android, WhatsApp refused to run
> without contacts access. On iOS Apple says it has to run even if contacts
> access is refused, so it just shows a wall of phone numbers instead of
> names.
>
> It uploads these contacts to the mothership, so they know everyone you talk
> to:
> https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/contacts/about-contact-upload/?lang=en
> (they claim contacts upload is optional - I've never seen an opt-out, beyond
> barring access to contacts at OS level)

Theo is purposefully helpfully bringing up an important point that _many_
apps surreptitiously or overtly automatically steal your contacts, which,
let's be clear, contain very private information about your friends, family
and neighbors that they have no business knowing.

Theo kind-hearted detailed reply didn't mention it, but if you're
intelligent, you can _easily_ prevent WhatsApp (or any application) from
uploading your contacts, but the sad fact is that most people are stupid.

So even if you did stop WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, your ignorant
friends, family, and neighbors will still upload _your_ private contact
information to WhatsApp (and other) servers (which is the real problem).

You can't control the fact that most people are utter morons (they do
_exactly_ what WhatsApp MARKETING wants them to do, they're _that_ stupid);
but what you can do is prevent WhatsApp from uploading your contacts, which
I did long ago and wrote a tutorial on how you can do it too.
> 5. Your connection metadata. Who you talk to, when, for how long. Even if
> they can't read your messages they get a pretty good idea of who is
> important to you.

Yup. Whom you talk to and who talks to you is data they can save, but I
don't know of any way to prevent this with WhatsApp because I haven't
looked.

With Google Voice, for example, you can "reset" the tracking number; but I
don't know how much of what Google Voice tracks is reset by that action.

Checking on iOS 13.5 iPad where Google deeply _hides_ that reset button!

For example, Google Voice doesn't hide the "remove call history" button:
Voice > Hamburger > Settings > Remove call history > Remove > Understand > Remove

But _look_ where Google Voice hid the "Google usage ID" reset button!
Voice > Hamburger > Settings > (scroll almost to the bottom)
Default apps > (again, scroll almost to the bottom)
Google usage ID > Rest Google usage ID > Yes, reset

Note this has _nothing_ to do with "Default apps", so I suspect Google, as
always, has purposefully _hidden_ this important personal privacy control.

On Android you can often make a one-tap homescreen shortcut to the page;
but I tested this only on my iPad (as GV isn't on Android for other reasons)
where I think that iOS is crippled in lack of ability to create that
shortcut. (If iOS isn't crippled, I'm sure the iKooks will set me straight.)

BTW, the _reason_ I don't have GV on my Android is just as bad though, since
the Google Voice app _insists_ on _creating_ an account on the Android
phone, whereas I don't have _any_ account on my Android phone.

The iOS iPads are _already_ fatally flawed in that you _must_ have a
mothership account on them (there's no way around it if you want that iPad
to access the Apple App Store), so that's why Google Voice is only on my
iPads and not on my Android phone.
>> FYI, my personal experience is no ill effect whatsoever from my use of
>> WhatsApp. No ads etc., period. Not inside WhatsApp and not outside
>> WhatsApp (i.e. e-mail, calls, SMS, etc.).
>
> They haven't monetised it in a way you can see - they have tried to link up
> the WhatsApp and Facebook userbases, but been frowned upon by regulators:
>
> <quote>
> In January 2021, WhatsApp announced an update to its Privacy Policy which
> states that WhatsApp would collect the metadata of users and share it with
> Facebook and its "family of companies" starting in February 2021.[91]
> Previously, users could opt-out of such data sharing, but this will no
> longer be an option. The new policy will not fully apply within the EU, in
> order to comply with the GDPR.[92] The new policy will not allow WhatsApp to
> see or send messages, which are still end-to-end encrypted, but it will
> allow Facebook to see data such as what phone and operating system a user
> has, the user's time zone, IP address, profile picture, status, phone
> number, app usage, and all of the contacts which are stored in WhatsApp.[93]
> </quote>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features
>
> You can be sure they didn't pay $19.3 billion out of philanthropy.

Theo,

Didn't WhatsApp retract that policy after the instant privacy uproar?

On 2/7/2022 7:35 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> Of course *if* the WhatsApp user *does* have a Facebook account, it's
> a completely different ball game and all bets are off. Duh!

Yes, that's the key consideration. Of course you could have a separate
Facebook and WhatsApp account with different credentials.

I don't think that there's any more of an issue with WhatsApp having
access to your contacts so it can determine who has a WhatsApp account
than it is to have iMessage do the same thing.

Until Apple adopts RCS, platforms like WhatsApp will continue to flourish.

In article <strrq6$kut$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Of course *if* the WhatsApp user *does* have a Facebook account, it's
> > a completely different ball game and all bets are off. Duh!
>
> Yes, that's the key consideration. Of course you could have a separate
> Facebook and WhatsApp account with different credentials.

facebook will link them together.

> I don't think that there's any more of an issue with WhatsApp having
> access to your contacts so it can determine who has a WhatsApp account
> than it is to have iMessage do the same thing.

there's a *huge* difference because the two companies have completely
different business models and corporate philosophies, and also imessage
doesn't upload contacts.

> Until Apple adopts RCS, platforms like WhatsApp will continue to flourish.

that is false. whatsapp and other messaging platforms will continue to
flourish regardless of what apple, google or anyone else does or
doesn't do.

On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 14:38:26 -0500, nospam wrote:

> there's a *huge* difference because the two companies have completely
> different business models and corporate philosophies, and also imessage
> doesn't upload contacts.

I wonder if nospam is telling us a little fib here given he mentioned
"the two companies"

Is nospam claiming _Apple_ doesn't ever upload contacts to the iCloud?

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 11:27:02 -0800, sms wrote:

> Yes, that's the key consideration. Of course you could have a separate
> Facebook and WhatsApp account with different credentials.

I'll leave it as an open question how "different" those "credentials" are if
the phone is the same and if the mothership accounts and Ad Id's and other
common features are the same...

On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 14:38:26 -0500, nospam wrote:

> that is false. whatsapp and other messaging platforms will continue to
> flourish regardless of what apple, google or anyone else does or
> doesn't do.

Published today...

*We're Fine Without Facebook, German and French Ministers Say*
�<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/we-re-fine-without-facebook-german-and-french-ministers-say>

"The pair were responding to comments in Meta's annual report published
Thursday, warning that if it couldn't rely on new or existing agreements
to shift data, then it would "likely be unable to offer a number of our
most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram,
in Europe.

In article <stsa6b$1hb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<spam@nospam.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 14:38:26 -0500, nospam wrote:
>
> > that is false. whatsapp and other messaging platforms will continue to
> > flourish regardless of what apple, google or anyone else does or
> > doesn't do.
>
> Published today...
>
> *We're Fine Without Facebook, German and French Ministers Say*

as usual, you snipped to alter context.

what i wrote was in reference to the ludicrous and completely baseless
claim that apple adopting rcs would have an affect on whatsapp and
other messaging platforms. it will not.

what you reference above has absolutely nothing to do with that.

In article <070220221438266127%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
<nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > Until Apple adopts RCS, platforms like WhatsApp will continue to flourish.
>
> that is false. whatsapp and other messaging platforms will continue to
> flourish regardless of what apple, google or anyone else does or
> doesn't do.

On Mon, 07 Feb 2022 18:46:27 -0500, nospam wrote:

> what i wrote was in reference to the ludicrous and completely baseless
> claim that apple adopting rcs would have an affect on whatsapp and
> other messaging platforms. it will not.

Fair enough. I wasn't responding to the RCS content but it may have looked
like that to you even as I was responding to the part about Europe rules for
privacy that affect Facebook & Whatsapp.

To your point...

Google is acting like a whiny baby saying Apple is "bullying" Android
owners, where what's really happening is that RCS isn't taking off as fast
as Google would like it to have done so they can't catch up to iMessage
features that people seem to like (AFAICT).

Meanwhile, Apple said in the Epic deposition that iMessage is one of the few
locks they have on style-conscious kids (whose parents buy them their
iPhones).

Apple isn't worried about Google, as you noted (IMHO).
And Google isn't going to get anywhere whining about RCS not having traction
--
BTW, stop saying I snip to alter content since I snip following the USENET
recommendations for only quoting what you're responding to (you should too).