https://mentourpilot.com/incident-boeing-767-swerves-to-avoid-glider/

I've often thought it would take just one serious collision with a
commercial airliner to shut down the sport of soaring permanently.

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 6:43:48 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> https://mentourpilot.com/incident-boeing-767-swerves-to-avoid-glider/
>
>
> I've often thought it would take just one serious collision with a
> commercial airliner to shut down the sport of soaring permanently.

This is not new to the glider community, I would like to know if the glider was in airspace where it should not have been? The article is a bit skewed in reference to TCAS and other transponder info that the glider was not required to have if it was in the proper airspace.
I just completed an extensive zoom meeting with the FAA in reference ton 5 NMAC'S within class E airspace where traffic was being directed to Vero Beach on an IFR plan and resulted in NMAC's. The incidents were very close, I was involved in one that resulted in me coming within 25-50 feet from a turbine craft on IFR departure from Vero. Other NMAC's were with a Gulfstream, Citation, Global Express and a Meridian. The same scenario was common in each incident, The IFR pilot was too busy watching his glass screen instead of paying attention to traffic when he became VFR ruled.
The result of all these incidents resulted into a Letter Of Agreement between our glider club and all involved parties. Such agreement will certainly go a long way toward increased awareness and safety between gliders and power traffic within our area.
Incidents like this are happening at an alarming rate, it is only a matter of time before a disaster occurs. Old Bob, The Purist

The local glider club several years ago decided to install transponders in its club gliders, but there's a couple dozen or so private gliders. It's a big club.

I remember being just a couple thousand feet up just a couple miles away over the fairground looking down on a British charter 757 on base to the RWY 12 ILS.

Then there was a Dash 8 splitting a thermal between two of us just south of the control zone to the north. I had stopped monitoring the tower when the other glider joined in.

I could go on with other examples.

One operator agreed to put out a radio call on the club frequency which helped.

With the big guys now on ADSB, PowerFLARM is really good at picking up their position. I'm happy to get out of the way, when I can't get in touch over the radio.

Anyone who still fly without a transponder beyond local training flights should ask themselves if this is how they want to be remembered. No one would care if it was outside a controlled airspace.

Ramy

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:43:48 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> https://mentourpilot.com/incident-boeing-767-swerves-to-avoid-glider/
>
>
> I've often thought it would take just one serious collision with a
> commercial airliner to shut down the sport of soaring permanently.

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 4:43:48 p.m. UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
> https://mentourpilot.com/incident-boeing-767-swerves-to-avoid-glider/
>
>
> I've often thought it would take just one serious collision with a
> commercial airliner to shut down the sport of soaring permanently.
There is no report on the Canadian 'Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System' (CADORS) that I can find. It would be very strange if this was not reported there. I saw this reported in a Canadian aviation forum and they couldn't actually produce a report. Fake News?

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 9:28:17 PM UTC-7, christop...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 4:43:48 p.m. UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
> > https://mentourpilot.com/incident-boeing-767-swerves-to-avoid-glider/
> >
> >
> > I've often thought it would take just one serious collision with a
> > commercial airliner to shut down the sport of soaring permanently.
> There is no report on the Canadian 'Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System' (CADORS) that I can find. It would be very strange if this was not reported there. I saw this reported in a Canadian aviation forum and they couldn't actually produce a report. Fake News?
Pfft see and avoid. I fly a 767 and am constantly looking outside down low. Good job on the Cargo Jet crew!

That makes 3 of us. Seriously, I spent a career observing my fellow crew members pretty much ignore looking for VFR/GA traffic. Operating under 10,000’ means you are departing or arriving in turn requiring the pilot flying to constantly monitor the instrument panel out of habit from fear of screwing up. The pilot not flying watches the pilot flying fearing the pilot flying will screw up. All of this has evolved because flight crews encounters with GA traffic is very rare, creating a lack of interest. I would bet most Professional pilots, Airline and Corporate, think operating under IFR flight rules gives them right of way over everyone, Part 61 having evaporated from their memory long ago.

I believe and accept that no one is looking out. Even GAs with all their fancy glass cockpits. That includes 66% of glider pilots. With the advent of ADSB, Flarm, TCAS….our modern pilots are being conditioned to look in, not out. Stare at a screen, not the wonder of it all.
Cheers!

R

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 7:18:34 AM UTC-4, R wrote:
> That makes 3 of us. Seriously, I spent a career observing my fellow crew members pretty much ignore looking for VFR/GA traffic. Operating under 10,000’ means you are departing or arriving in turn requiring the pilot flying to constantly monitor the instrument panel out of habit from fear of screwing up. The pilot not flying watches the pilot flying fearing the pilot flying will screw up. All of this has evolved because flight crews encounters with GA traffic is very rare, creating a lack of interest. I would bet most Professional pilots, Airline and Corporate, think operating under IFR flight rules gives them right of way over everyone, Part 61 having evaporated from their memory long ago.
>
> I believe and accept that no one is looking out. Even GAs with all their fancy glass cockpits. That includes 66% of glider pilots. With the advent of ADSB, Flarm, TCAS….our modern pilots are being conditioned to look in, not out. Stare at a screen, not the wonder of it all.
> Cheers!
>
> R

Henry, you and a few others have identified the basic problem, which IMHO refers back to the lack of responsibility that all IFR traffic has when in VFR conditions. That big beautiful glass screen looks so good and ATC tells everyone everything they need to know, so why look out of the cockpit. Ramy made a good point, but in our case the events took place on all but one training flight, at or below 1500 feet AGL and well away from class D airspace.
The scenario goes something like this, Aircraft arriving into Vero on IFR plan, tells control that he has airport in sight and then comes buzzing his Global Express or G650 right over the middle of the gliderport at as low as 1200 feet with his gear down and his head somewhere in dreamland, not paying attention to anything except that big beautiful screen and thinking about the fancy restaurant that he or she will be dining at over on the beach tonight. This is much more common than people realize, we just happen to be in the mecca of traffic and private jet traffic. On another note it does our community no good when someone violates controlled airspace it becomes well noted and creates further problems for all involved with the sport. The excuse, "Well We Were Just A Little Bit Inside Class B", doesn't fair well when the FAA comes calling.
There is a solution to this problem, the technology is out there to protect everyone, and you would think that the FAA would want to push ahead and create a better safety cushion for GA, yet it probably will take a major collision to increase awareness, being proactive rather than reactive will save lives, the paradigm needs to change.
In our case the LOA is a small step in the right direction, it has opened eyes and certainly has documented a potential disaster just waiting to happen. Old Bob, The Purist

Don't forget that out west gliders are flying right up to the bottom of
the PCA. Oops, Class A airspace.

I guess the reference to Part 61 is about "See and avoid" when in VMC on
an IFR flight plan.

My glider has full (Certificated) ADS-B In and Out.

Dan
5J

On 8/23/22 05:18, R wrote:
> That makes 3 of us. Seriously, I spent a career observing my fellow crew members pretty much ignore looking for VFR/GA traffic. Operating under 10,000’ means you are departing or arriving in turn requiring the pilot flying to constantly monitor the instrument panel out of habit from fear of screwing up. The pilot not flying watches the pilot flying fearing the pilot flying will screw up. All of this has evolved because flight crews encounters with GA traffic is very rare, creating a lack of interest. I would bet most Professional pilots, Airline and Corporate, think operating under IFR flight rules gives them right of way over everyone, Part 61 having evaporated from their memory long ago.
>
> I believe and accept that no one is looking out. Even GAs with all their fancy glass cockpits. That includes 66% of glider pilots. With the advent of ADSB, Flarm, TCAS….our modern pilots are being conditioned to look in, not out. Stare at a screen, not the wonder of it all.
> Cheers!
>
> R
>
>
>
>

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 11:34:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Don't forget that out west gliders are flying right up to the bottom of
> the PCA. Oops, Class A airspace.
>
> I guess the reference to Part 61 is about "See and avoid" when in VMC on
> an IFR flight plan.
>
> My glider has full (Certificated) ADS-B In and Out.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 8/23/22 05:18, R wrote:
> > That makes 3 of us. Seriously, I spent a career observing my fellow crew members pretty much ignore looking for VFR/GA traffic. Operating under 10,000’ means you are departing or arriving in turn requiring the pilot flying to constantly monitor the instrument panel out of habit from fear of screwing up. The pilot not flying watches the pilot flying fearing the pilot flying will screw up. All of this has evolved because flight crews encounters with GA traffic is very rare, creating a lack of interest. I would bet most Professional pilots, Airline and Corporate, think operating under IFR flight rules gives them right of way over everyone, Part 61 having evaporated from their memory long ago.
> >
> > I believe and accept that no one is looking out. Even GAs with all their fancy glass cockpits. That includes 66% of glider pilots. With the advent of ADSB, Flarm, TCAS….our modern pilots are being conditioned to look in, not out. Stare at a screen, not the wonder of it all.
> > Cheers!
> >
> > R
> >
> >
> >
> >
The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 8:19:57 PM UTC-7, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 11:34:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Don't forget that out west gliders are flying right up to the bottom of
> > the PCA. Oops, Class A airspace.
> >
> > I guess the reference to Part 61 is about "See and avoid" when in VMC on
> > an IFR flight plan.
> >
> > My glider has full (Certificated) ADS-B In and Out.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 8/23/22 05:18, R wrote:
> > > That makes 3 of us. Seriously, I spent a career observing my fellow crew members pretty much ignore looking for VFR/GA traffic. Operating under 10,000’ means you are departing or arriving in turn requiring the pilot flying to constantly monitor the instrument panel out of habit from fear of screwing up. The pilot not flying watches the pilot flying fearing the pilot flying will screw up. All of this has evolved because flight crews encounters with GA traffic is very rare, creating a lack of interest. I would bet most Professional pilots, Airline and Corporate, think operating under IFR flight rules gives them right of way over everyone, Part 61 having evaporated from their memory long ago.
> > >
> > > I believe and accept that no one is looking out. Even GAs with all their fancy glass cockpits. That includes 66% of glider pilots. With the advent of ADSB, Flarm, TCAS….our modern pilots are being conditioned to look in, not out. Stare at a screen, not the wonder of it all.
> > > Cheers!
> > >
> > > R
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.

The incident occurred at 9:43am, almost 2 hours before the XC pilots launched from Rockton SOSA, all of whom headed north (Hamilton is south). This must have been a training flight. At the time of the incident the 767 had a ground speed of 212mph - it is amazing that they saw and avoided the glider in time. Operating in a high traffic area like Hamilton or Vero Beach w/o a transponder is inviting trouble. Having an ADS-B traffic display gives you that much more awareness of what is happening around you. It is surprising how much traffic there is out there that you never see visually.

Tom

On 8/23/22 23:29, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 8:19:57 PM UTC-7, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 11:34:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Don't forget that out west gliders are flying right up to the bottom of
>>> the PCA. Oops, Class A airspace.
>>>
>>> I guess the reference to Part 61 is about "See and avoid" when in VMC on
>>> an IFR flight plan.
>>>
>>> My glider has full (Certificated) ADS-B In and Out.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>> On 8/23/22 05:18, R wrote:
>>>> That makes 3 of us. Seriously, I spent a career observing my fellow crew members pretty much ignore looking for VFR/GA traffic. Operating under 10,000’ means you are departing or arriving in turn requiring the pilot flying to constantly monitor the instrument panel out of habit from fear of screwing up. The pilot not flying watches the pilot flying fearing the pilot flying will screw up. All of this has evolved because flight crews encounters with GA traffic is very rare, creating a lack of interest. I would bet most Professional pilots, Airline and Corporate, think operating under IFR flight rules gives them right of way over everyone, Part 61 having evaporated from their memory long ago.
>>>>
>>>> I believe and accept that no one is looking out. Even GAs with all their fancy glass cockpits. That includes 66% of glider pilots. With the advent of ADSB, Flarm, TCAS….our modern pilots are being conditioned to look in, not out. Stare at a screen, not the wonder of it all.
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>> R
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
>
> The incident occurred at 9:43am, almost 2 hours before the XC pilots launched from Rockton SOSA, all of whom headed north (Hamilton is south). This must have been a training flight. At the time of the incident the 767 had a ground speed of 212mph - it is amazing that they saw and avoided the glider in time. Operating in a high traffic area like Hamilton or Vero Beach w/o a transponder is inviting trouble. Having an ADS-B traffic display gives you that much more awareness of what is happening around you. It is surprising how much traffic there is out there that you never see visually.
>
> Tom

Local time was 12:43 EDT.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJT302/history/20220812/1310Z/CYVR/CYHM

I don't see a big swerve in the flight path, more like a little
overshoot in the turn to pick up the localizer.

On 8/23/2022 10:29 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 8:19:57 PM UTC-7, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>>
>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
>
> The incident occurred at 9:43am, almost 2 hours before the XC pilots launched from Rockton SOSA, all of whom headed north (Hamilton is south). This must have been a training flight. At the time of the incident the 767 had a ground speed of 212mph - it is amazing that they saw and avoided the glider in time. Operating in a high traffic area like Hamilton or Vero Beach w/o a transponder is inviting trouble. Having an ADS-B traffic display gives you that much more awareness of what is happening around you. It is surprising how much traffic there is out there that you never see visually.
>
> Tom

Flightaware shows some flights out of Rockton, but I couldn't examine the day of the
incident. Was there a flight trace for the glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:

> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.

With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
avoid traffic. Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way? Or maybe
he didn't see the 767?

Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".

On 8/23/2022 11:35 PM, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/23/22 23:29, 2G wrote:
onder of it all.
>>>>> Cheers!
.....
>>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
>>
>> The incident occurred at 9:43am, almost 2 hours before the XC pilots launched from
>> Rockton SOSA, all of whom headed north (Hamilton is south). This must have been a
>> training flight. At the time of the incident the 767 had a ground speed of 212mph - it
>> is amazing that they saw and avoided the glider in time. Operating in a high traffic
>> area like Hamilton or Vero Beach w/o a transponder is inviting trouble. Having an ADS-B
>> traffic display gives you that much more awareness of what is happening around you. It
>> is surprising how much traffic there is out there that you never see visually.
>>
>> Tom
>
> Local time was 12:43 EDT.
>
> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJT302/history/20220812/1310Z/CYVR/CYHM
>
> I don't see a big swerve in the flight path, more like a little overshoot in the turn to
> pick up the localizer.

There's a discrepancy between Tom's 9:43 am EDT and the flight track, which shows the
cargo jet arriving at Hamilton at 12:43 pm EDT (9:43 PDT). I do not see a swerve, either,
but just a smooth right turn onto the runway extended center line. If the incident did
occur around 12:43 EDT, that would be the same period when many gliders were launching
from Rockton CPT3 airport.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On 8/24/22 10:16, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/23/2022 11:35 PM, kinsell wrote:
>> On 8/23/22 23:29, 2G wrote:
> onder of it all.
>>>>>> Cheers!
> ....
>>>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything
>>>> right.
>>>
>>> The incident occurred at 9:43am, almost 2 hours before the XC pilots
>>> launched from Rockton SOSA, all of whom headed north (Hamilton is
>>> south). This must have been a training flight. At the time of the
>>> incident the 767 had a ground speed of 212mph - it is amazing that
>>> they saw and avoided the glider in time. Operating in a high traffic
>>> area like Hamilton or Vero Beach w/o a transponder is inviting
>>> trouble. Having an ADS-B traffic display gives you that much more
>>> awareness of what is happening around you. It is surprising how much
>>> traffic there is out there that you never see visually.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>> Local time was 12:43 EDT.
>>
>> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJT302/history/20220812/1310Z/CYVR/CYHM
>>
>>
>> I don't see a big swerve in the flight path, more like a little
>> overshoot in the turn to pick up the localizer.
>
> There's a discrepancy between Tom's 9:43 am EDT and the flight track,
> which shows the cargo jet arriving at Hamilton at 12:43 pm EDT (9:43
> PDT). I do not see a swerve, either, but just a smooth right turn onto
> the runway extended center line. If the incident did occur around 12:43
> EDT, that would be the same period when many gliders were launching from
> Rockton CPT3 airport.
>

I think Tom didn't account for the three hour time difference between
departure and arrival airports.

To be honest, I think there is some doubt this is a real incident. The
CADORS system does have an entry 2022O1703 talking about this flight on
Aug 12, where it was just a bird strike. Either CADORS has it all
wrong, or somebody fabricated this story and multiple web sites picked
it up.

-Dave

Let's not forget that IFR traffic in VMC also has an obligation to "see
and avoid". ATC separation is only between IFR traffic; ATC can't
always see VFR traffic.

Dan
5J

On 8/24/22 10:06, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
>
> With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
> avoid traffic.  Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
> take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way?  Or maybe
> he didn't see the 767?
>
> Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
> apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
> and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
>  I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".

On 8/22/2022 6:10 PM, George Haeh wrote:
> The local glider club several years ago decided to install transponders in its club gliders, but there's a couple dozen or so private gliders. It's a big club.
>
> I remember being just a couple thousand feet up just a couple miles away over the fairground looking down on a British charter 757 on base to the RWY 12 ILS.
>
> Then there was a Dash 8 splitting a thermal between two of us just south of the control zone to the north. I had stopped monitoring the tower when the other glider joined in.
>
> I could go on with other examples.
>
> One operator agreed to put out a radio call on the club frequency which helped.
>
> With the big guys now on ADSB, PowerFLARM is really good at picking up their position. I'm happy to get out of the way, when I can't get in touch over the radio.

Can someone tell me the Canadian requirements for transponders and ADS-B in their gliders?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:17:38 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 6:10 PM, George Haeh wrote:
> > The local glider club several years ago decided to install transponders in its club gliders, but there's a couple dozen or so private gliders. It's a big club.
> >
> > I remember being just a couple thousand feet up just a couple miles away over the fairground looking down on a British charter 757 on base to the RWY 12 ILS.
> >
> > Then there was a Dash 8 splitting a thermal between two of us just south of the control zone to the north. I had stopped monitoring the tower when the other glider joined in.
> >
> > I could go on with other examples.
> >
> > One operator agreed to put out a radio call on the club frequency which helped.
> >
> > With the big guys now on ADSB, PowerFLARM is really good at picking up their position. I'm happy to get out of the way, when I can't get in touch over the radio.
> Can someone tell me the Canadian requirements for transponders and ADS-B in their gliders?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

The time was 12:43pm (I saw the 9:43 PDT and mistook it for EDT). None of the posted OLC flights were in that area at that time. It is always possible that the 767 crew saw a glider nearby, but not it its path, and reported it. The flight track just doesn't look like an avoidance maneuver.

Tom

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:06:19 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
> With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
> avoid traffic. Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
> take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way? Or maybe
> he didn't see the 767?
>
> Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
> apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
> and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
> I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".
The glider actually has the right of way assuming they were in uncontrolled airspace.

On 8/24/22 18:44, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:06:19 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>> On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
>> With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
>> avoid traffic. Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
>> take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way? Or maybe
>> he didn't see the 767?
>>
>> Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
>> apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
>> and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
>> I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".
> The glider actually has the right of way assuming they were in uncontrolled airspace.

Absolutely, that is the regulation in the U.S. Most of us aren't
experts in Canadian regulations, but let's assume it's the same there.

Simple question for Mr Longley and Szikora:

If you're flying a glider in uncontrolled airspace, and you see a 767
headed toward you, do you

A) take evasive action to avoid a collision
or
B) stay where you are and assume the 767 is going to divert?

I'm reminded of the Minden accident, where a glider was flying with an
inop transponder, and collided with a biz jet at about 14K feet. Did
the FAA say "oh, the glider had every right to do that, so let's crack
down on bizjet drivers that aren't looking outside?" Or did they try to
ram an ADS-B Out mandate on all gliders? Being in the right is a hollow
victory if you kill yourself, or crash an airliner, or cause major
changes to the sport we all love.

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 7:32:23 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 8/24/22 18:44, Charles Longley wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:06:19 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> >> On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
> >> With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
> >> avoid traffic. Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
> >> take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way? Or maybe
> >> he didn't see the 767?
> >>
> >> Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
> >> apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
> >> and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
> >> I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".
> > The glider actually has the right of way assuming they were in uncontrolled airspace.
> Absolutely, that is the regulation in the U.S. Most of us aren't
> experts in Canadian regulations, but let's assume it's the same there.
>
> Simple question for Mr Longley and Szikora:
>
> If you're flying a glider in uncontrolled airspace, and you see a 767
> headed toward you, do you
>
> A) take evasive action to avoid a collision
> or
> B) stay where you are and assume the 767 is going to divert?
>
> I'm reminded of the Minden accident, where a glider was flying with an
> inop transponder, and collided with a biz jet at about 14K feet. Did
> the FAA say "oh, the glider had every right to do that, so let's crack
> down on bizjet drivers that aren't looking outside?" Or did they try to
> ram an ADS-B Out mandate on all gliders? Being in the right is a hollow
> victory if you kill yourself, or crash an airliner, or cause major
> changes to the sport we all love.
Don’t be a simpleton. Obviously it’s everyone’s duty to see and avoid.

I fly around para-gliders a lot at Ephrata. A glider has the right of way. But I go out of my way to stay clear of them. When you see one there’s probably a couple you don’t see.

On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 21:02:43 UTC-6, kuzi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 7:32:23 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > On 8/24/22 18:44, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:06:19 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > >> On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
> > >> With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
> > >> avoid traffic. Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
> > >> take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way? Or maybe
> > >> he didn't see the 767?
> > >>
> > >> Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
> > >> apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
> > >> and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
> > >> I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".
> > > The glider actually has the right of way assuming they were in uncontrolled airspace.
> > Absolutely, that is the regulation in the U.S. Most of us aren't
> > experts in Canadian regulations, but let's assume it's the same there.
> >
> > Simple question for Mr Longley and Szikora:
> >
> > If you're flying a glider in uncontrolled airspace, and you see a 767
> > headed toward you, do you
> >
> > A) take evasive action to avoid a collision
> > or
> > B) stay where you are and assume the 767 is going to divert?
> >
> > I'm reminded of the Minden accident, where a glider was flying with an
> > inop transponder, and collided with a biz jet at about 14K feet. Did
> > the FAA say "oh, the glider had every right to do that, so let's crack
> > down on bizjet drivers that aren't looking outside?" Or did they try to
> > ram an ADS-B Out mandate on all gliders? Being in the right is a hollow
> > victory if you kill yourself, or crash an airliner, or cause major
> > changes to the sport we all love.
> Don’t be a simpleton. Obviously it’s everyone’s duty to see and avoid.
>
> I fly around para-gliders a lot at Ephrata. A glider has the right of way.. But I go out of my way to stay clear of them. When you see one there’s probably a couple you don’t see.
Why do gliders have right of way over para-gliders?

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:09:05 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 21:02:43 UTC-6, kuzi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 7:32:23 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 8/24/22 18:44, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:06:19 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > >> On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
> > > >> With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
> > > >> avoid traffic. Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
> > > >> take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way? Or maybe
> > > >> he didn't see the 767?
> > > >>
> > > >> Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
> > > >> apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
> > > >> and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
> > > >> I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".
> > > > The glider actually has the right of way assuming they were in uncontrolled airspace.
> > > Absolutely, that is the regulation in the U.S. Most of us aren't
> > > experts in Canadian regulations, but let's assume it's the same there..
> > >
> > > Simple question for Mr Longley and Szikora:
> > >
> > > If you're flying a glider in uncontrolled airspace, and you see a 767
> > > headed toward you, do you
> > >
> > > A) take evasive action to avoid a collision
> > > or
> > > B) stay where you are and assume the 767 is going to divert?
> > >
> > > I'm reminded of the Minden accident, where a glider was flying with an
> > > inop transponder, and collided with a biz jet at about 14K feet. Did
> > > the FAA say "oh, the glider had every right to do that, so let's crack
> > > down on bizjet drivers that aren't looking outside?" Or did they try to
> > > ram an ADS-B Out mandate on all gliders? Being in the right is a hollow
> > > victory if you kill yourself, or crash an airliner, or cause major
> > > changes to the sport we all love.
> > Don’t be a simpleton. Obviously it’s everyone’s duty to see and avoid.
> >
> > I fly around para-gliders a lot at Ephrata. A glider has the right of way. But I go out of my way to stay clear of them. When you see one there’s probably a couple you don’t see.
> Why do gliders have right of way over para-gliders?
Beats me but it’s in the FAR’s. I checked out of curiosity. Possibly because they’re not certified IDK.

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:38:50 PM UTC-7, kuzi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:09:05 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 21:02:43 UTC-6, kuzi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 7:32:23 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > > On 8/24/22 18:44, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 9:06:19 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > > >> On 8/23/22 21:19, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> The glider pilot did nothing wrong. The cargo pilot did everything right.
> > > > >> With the glider flying under VFR rules, he would be obligated to see and
> > > > >> avoid traffic. Are you suggesting he saw the 767 and decided not to
> > > > >> take evasive action because he (the glider) had right of way? Or maybe
> > > > >> he didn't see the 767?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Glider was flying in the approach path of an international airport, with
> > > > >> apparently no collision avoidance technology, no communication with ATC,
> > > > >> and failure to avoid the 767, which is much easier to see than a glider.
> > > > >> I would struggle to say he "did nothing wrong".
> > > > > The glider actually has the right of way assuming they were in uncontrolled airspace.
> > > > Absolutely, that is the regulation in the U.S. Most of us aren't
> > > > experts in Canadian regulations, but let's assume it's the same there.
> > > >
> > > > Simple question for Mr Longley and Szikora:
> > > >
> > > > If you're flying a glider in uncontrolled airspace, and you see a 767
> > > > headed toward you, do you
> > > >
> > > > A) take evasive action to avoid a collision
> > > > or
> > > > B) stay where you are and assume the 767 is going to divert?
> > > >
> > > > I'm reminded of the Minden accident, where a glider was flying with an
> > > > inop transponder, and collided with a biz jet at about 14K feet. Did
> > > > the FAA say "oh, the glider had every right to do that, so let's crack
> > > > down on bizjet drivers that aren't looking outside?" Or did they try to
> > > > ram an ADS-B Out mandate on all gliders? Being in the right is a hollow
> > > > victory if you kill yourself, or crash an airliner, or cause major
> > > > changes to the sport we all love.
> > > Don’t be a simpleton. Obviously it’s everyone’s duty to see and avoid.
> > >
> > > I fly around para-gliders a lot at Ephrata. A glider has the right of way. But I go out of my way to stay clear of them. When you see one there’s probably a couple you don’t see.
> > Why do gliders have right of way over para-gliders?
> Beats me but it’s in the FAR’s. I checked out of curiosity. Possibly because they’re not certified IDK.

The general principal is that the lower maneuverability aircraft has the right of way, and paragliders are CLEARLY the lower maneuverability aircraft.

Tom