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tech / sci.bio.paleontology / Fwd: For Peter

SubjectAuthor
* Fwd: For PeterOxyaena
+* Re: Fwd: For PeterJohn Harshman
|`* Re: Fwd: For PeterOxyaena
| `* Re: Fwd: For PeterJohn Harshman
|  `* Re: Fwd: For PeterOxyaena
|   `* Re: Fwd: For PeterJohn Harshman
|    +- Re: Fwd: For PeterOxyaena
|    `- A Jurassic gliding mammal WAS: Re: Fwd: For PeterPeter Nyikos
+* Re: For PeterGlenn
|+* Re: For PeterPeter Nyikos
||`- Re: For PeterOxyaena
|`* Re: For Peternyik...@gmail.com
| `* Re: For PeterOxyaena
|  +* Re: For PeterOxyaena
|  |`* Re: For PeterPeter Nyikos
|  | `- Re: For PeterPeter Nyikos
|  `- Re: For PeterPeter Nyikos
+- Re: For PeterPeter Nyikos
`* Re: For PeterDaud Deden
 `- Re: For PeterDaud Deden

1
Fwd: For Peter

<s7pcnl$p16$2@solani.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3008&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3008

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From: oxya...@invalid.invalid (Oxyaena)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Fwd: For Peter
Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:59:29 -0400
Message-ID: <s7pcnl$p16$2@solani.org>
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 by: Oxyaena - Sat, 15 May 2021 20:59 UTC

Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: For Peter
Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
From: Oxyaena <oxyaena@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: talk.origins

You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have fossils of gliding
mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever hear of
*Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent comments
on the subject, lol:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234

Re: Fwd: For Peter

<hfydnVGcLISn9j39nZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3009&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3009

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Subject: Re: Fwd: For Peter
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
References: <md5:PSi1oA7fE58ev4SrZeJWYQ==> <s7pcnl$p16$2@solani.org>
From: jharsh...@pacbell.net (John Harshman)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 17:45:45 -0700
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 by: John Harshman - Sun, 16 May 2021 00:45 UTC

On 5/15/21 1:59 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>
> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: For Peter
> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> From: Oxyaena <oxyaena@invalid.invalid>
> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>
> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have fossils of gliding
> mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever hear of
> *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent comments
> on the subject, lol:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234

I hadn't heard of it either. Thanks. But is it necessary to be so
hostile right off the bat? Or ever?

Re: Fwd: For Peter

<s7pqhb$vkr$1@solani.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3010&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3010

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From: oxya...@invalid.invalid (Oxyaena)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Re: Fwd: For Peter
Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 20:55:04 -0400
Message-ID: <s7pqhb$vkr$1@solani.org>
References: <md5:PSi1oA7fE58ev4SrZeJWYQ==> <s7pcnl$p16$2@solani.org>
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 by: Oxyaena - Sun, 16 May 2021 00:55 UTC

On 5/15/2021 8:45 PM, John Harshman wrote:
> On 5/15/21 1:59 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>>
>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: For Peter
>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>> From: Oxyaena <oxyaena@invalid.invalid>
>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>
>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
>> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
>> record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have fossils of
>> gliding mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever hear of
>> *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent comments
>> on the subject, lol:
>>
>> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234
>
> I hadn't heard of it either. Thanks. But is it necessary to be so
> hostile right off the bat? Or ever?

You're welcome, and in regards to Peter, why should I be civil to
someone who will treat me like I'm the spawn of Satan anyway?

Re: Fwd: For Peter

<6d6dnRnNxo9k5T39nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3011&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3011

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Subject: Re: Fwd: For Peter
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From: jharsh...@pacbell.net (John Harshman)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 18:44:24 -0700
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 by: John Harshman - Sun, 16 May 2021 01:44 UTC

On 5/15/21 5:55 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 5/15/2021 8:45 PM, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 5/15/21 1:59 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>
>>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>>
>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>> Subject: For Peter
>>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>>> From: Oxyaena <oxyaena@invalid.invalid>
>>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>>
>>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
>>> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
>>> record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have fossils of
>>> gliding mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever hear of
>>> *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent
>>> comments on the subject, lol:
>>>
>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234
>>
>> I hadn't heard of it either. Thanks. But is it necessary to be so
>> hostile right off the bat? Or ever?
>
> You're welcome, and in regards to Peter, why should I be civil to
> someone who will treat me like I'm the spawn of Satan anyway?

So, do unto others before they do unto you? Is that what you're saying?
I've found that Peter is occasionally capable of civilized behavior. Why
not give him a chance to do it again?

Re: Fwd: For Peter

<s7qkjm$dsk$1@solani.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3012&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3012

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From: oxya...@invalid.invalid (Oxyaena)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Re: Fwd: For Peter
Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 04:20:02 -0400
Message-ID: <s7qkjm$dsk$1@solani.org>
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In-Reply-To: <6d6dnRnNxo9k5T39nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
 by: Oxyaena - Sun, 16 May 2021 08:20 UTC

On 5/15/2021 9:44 PM, John Harshman wrote:
> On 5/15/21 5:55 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>> On 5/15/2021 8:45 PM, John Harshman wrote:
>>> On 5/15/21 1:59 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>>>
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject: For Peter
>>>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>>>> From: Oxyaena <oxyaena@invalid.invalid>
>>>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>>>
>>>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
>>>> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
>>>> record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have fossils of
>>>> gliding mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever hear of
>>>> *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent
>>>> comments on the subject, lol:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234
>>>
>>> I hadn't heard of it either. Thanks. But is it necessary to be so
>>> hostile right off the bat? Or ever?
>>
>> You're welcome, and in regards to Peter, why should I be civil to
>> someone who will treat me like I'm the spawn of Satan anyway?
>
> So, do unto others before they do unto you? Is that what you're saying?

Pretty much, except I'm perfectly civil to people who aren't asshats or
reactionaries. Peter's long since worn out my patience, I find trying to
be civil with him to be a waste of time.

> I've found that Peter is occasionally capable of civilized behavior. Why
> not give him a chance to do it again?

I've tried that before, it always ends up failing some way or another.
Not worth my time.

Re: Fwd: For Peter

<bZGdnR_oKcsB4jz9nZ2dnUU7-WednZ2d@giganews.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3013&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3013

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Subject: Re: Fwd: For Peter
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From: jharsh...@pacbell.net (John Harshman)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 13:25:00 -0700
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 by: John Harshman - Sun, 16 May 2021 20:25 UTC

On 5/16/21 1:20 AM, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 5/15/2021 9:44 PM, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 5/15/21 5:55 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>>> On 5/15/2021 8:45 PM, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 5/15/21 1:59 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>>> Subject: For Peter
>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>>>>> From: Oxyaena <oxyaena@invalid.invalid>
>>>>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>>>>
>>>>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals
>>>>> or flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the
>>>>> fossil record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have
>>>>> fossils of gliding mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever
>>>>> hear of *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your
>>>>> recent comments on the subject, lol:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234
>>>>
>>>> I hadn't heard of it either. Thanks. But is it necessary to be so
>>>> hostile right off the bat? Or ever?
>>>
>>> You're welcome, and in regards to Peter, why should I be civil to
>>> someone who will treat me like I'm the spawn of Satan anyway?
>>
>> So, do unto others before they do unto you? Is that what you're saying?
>
> Pretty much, except I'm perfectly civil to people who aren't asshats or
> reactionaries. Peter's long since worn out my patience, I find trying to
> be civil with him to be a waste of time.
>
>> I've found that Peter is occasionally capable of civilized behavior.
>> Why not give him a chance to do it again?
>
> I've tried that before, it always ends up failing some way or another.
> Not worth my time.

Then I suppose this isn't worth my time. Carry on.

Re: Fwd: For Peter

<s7tuad$f9i$1@solani.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3014&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3014

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From: oxya...@invalid.invalid (Oxyaena)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Re: Fwd: For Peter
Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 10:24:07 -0400
Message-ID: <s7tuad$f9i$1@solani.org>
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 by: Oxyaena - Mon, 17 May 2021 14:24 UTC

On 5/16/2021 4:25 PM, John Harshman wrote:
> On 5/16/21 1:20 AM, Oxyaena wrote:
>> On 5/15/2021 9:44 PM, John Harshman wrote:
>>> On 5/15/21 5:55 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>> On 5/15/2021 8:45 PM, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>> On 5/15/21 1:59 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: For Peter
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>>>>>> From: Oxyaena <oxyaena@invalid.invalid>
>>>>>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals
>>>>>> or flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the
>>>>>> fossil record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have
>>>>>> fossils of gliding mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic,
>>>>>> ever hear of *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering
>>>>>> your recent comments on the subject, lol:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234
>>>>>
>>>>> I hadn't heard of it either. Thanks. But is it necessary to be so
>>>>> hostile right off the bat? Or ever?
>>>>
>>>> You're welcome, and in regards to Peter, why should I be civil to
>>>> someone who will treat me like I'm the spawn of Satan anyway?
>>>
>>> So, do unto others before they do unto you? Is that what you're saying?
>>
>> Pretty much, except I'm perfectly civil to people who aren't asshats
>> or reactionaries. Peter's long since worn out my patience, I find
>> trying to be civil with him to be a waste of time.
>>
>>> I've found that Peter is occasionally capable of civilized behavior.
>>> Why not give him a chance to do it again?
>>
>> I've tried that before, it always ends up failing some way or another.
>> Not worth my time.
>
> Then I suppose this isn't worth my time. Carry on.

You as well.

Re: For Peter

<7c04fc5e-cc35-46af-961f-158b8871b89en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: For Peter
From: glennnot...@gmail.com (Glenn)
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 by: Glenn - Tue, 18 May 2021 05:27 UTC

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:59:36 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: For Peter
> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>
> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> record.

Support that claim, asshat.

Re: For Peter

<fa276abe-b19b-47bf-9036-1c494e2f6d6dn@googlegroups.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3016&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3016

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Subject: Re: For Peter
From: peter2ny...@gmail.com (Peter Nyikos)
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 by: Peter Nyikos - Sat, 29 May 2021 01:15 UTC

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 1:27:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:59:36 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
> > Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
> >
> > -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > Subject: For Peter
> > Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> > From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
> > Newsgroups: talk.origins
> >
> > You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> > flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> > record.

> Support that claim, asshat.

I don't think she can. I did say that there were no known fossils of mammals OR examples of living
mammals that had elongated fingers ["digits in the manus" is how I may have put it]
that played a big role in gliding or flying except for bats.

If she claims that this is what she meant, you will know how big of an asshat she is.

Or if she claims that *Volaticotherium* glided with the help of a membrane stretched
between elongated digits, then she has some tall explaining to do about the abstract
of the article she linked, the only part available without crashing through a paywall:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

Re: For Peter

<s95hau$rdu$2@solani.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3026&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3026

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From: oxya...@invalid.invalid (Oxyaena)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Re: For Peter
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 10:47:55 -0400
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 by: Oxyaena - Tue, 1 Jun 2021 14:47 UTC

On 5/28/2021 9:15 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 1:27:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:59:36 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
>>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>>
>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>> Subject: For Peter
>>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>>> From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
>>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>>
>>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
>>> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
>>> record.
>
>> Support that claim, asshat.
>
> I don't think she can. I did say that there were no known fossils of mammals OR examples of living
> mammals that had elongated fingers ["digits in the manus" is how I may have put it]
> that played a big role in gliding or flying except for bats.
>
> If she claims that this is what she meant, you will know how big of an asshat she is.
>
> Or if she claims that *Volaticotherium* glided with the help of a membrane stretched
> between elongated digits, then she has some tall explaining to do about the abstract
> of the article she linked, the only part available without crashing through a paywall:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234
>
>
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> University of South Carolina
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>

Two asshat trolls frolicking in the park together. How cute.

Re: For Peter

<33d0551a-e06b-43dc-b585-1718355448a5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: For Peter
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 by: nyik...@gmail.com - Tue, 1 Jun 2021 21:41 UTC

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 1:27:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:59:36 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
> > Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
> >
> > -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > Subject: For Peter
> > Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> > From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
> > Newsgroups: talk.origins
> >
> > You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> > flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> > record.

I made an earllier reply which I'm deleting, but I don't mind that Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena
left it in with her trolling reply.

> Support that claim, asshat.

Surprisingly, she can, Glenn, but she didn't in her trolling reply to me, and she probably never
would have.

Here's why: if she had supported it with proper documentation, it would have made
people discover what a fool Burkhard made of himself by showing how little he knows
about what evolutionary science (especially paleontology) has shown and has
not shown.

Look at Burkhard's ignorant analogy in the following excerpts, where I have added
some information in brackets:

______________________ excerpt 1 ______________________________________

[Peter, to jillery, who let Burkhard pinch hit for her:]
> > I challenge you to cook up a scenario, using the kind of mutations you know about,
> > which will take a glider like a so-called flying squirrel or a so-called flying phalanger
> > [two kinds of gliders, not flyers] to a creature with wings like a bat, with each and
> > every step either favorable to natural selection or at least neutral.
> >
> > Note, I wrote "like a bat," not "like a pterosaur". Four long digits for the wing,
> > only the pollex [1] free for climbing trees, getting along on the ground, manipulating
> > objects, etc.
> >
> > [1] thumb, to people with as little interest in university level biology as yourself

[Peter, addressing Burkhard:]
One could hardly imagine a challenge that has *less* commonality with mine
than the one you've cooked up below. But you are excused, because you
have not shown the slightest knowledge of paleontology.

[Burkhard:]
> And I challenge you to give an account of Wellington' victory at
> Waterloo that takes a "deployment of troops to eventual victory"
> scenario that accounts for the trajectory of every bullet fired. Would
> be about as meaningful

[Peter:]
We have NO known fossils of any gliding mammals, let alone flying ones, before the
first bat fossils,

================= end of first excerpt ======================

I was very much pressed for time, and so I carelessly left out the word "Cenozoic"
before "gliding mammals." The essential point is unchanged: there are no known
mammals that could shed any light on bat ancestry by having any kind of
gliding capability. They would have to be restricted to lineages that survived the great K-T extinction.

*************************** begin second excerpt ************************

which had wings almost exactly like modern bats. It's as though
historians knew that armies of Britain and Prussia were arrayed against
Napoleon before the battle, and then knew that Napoleon had become a captive of the
British after the battle, but no records or artifacts were known of the Battle
of Waterloo itself, and they had to figure out what MIGHT have happened during the
battle just on the basis of what is known of battles in general.

Wait, it's even worse: there are no known examples of any mammals, fossil or living,
with elongated fingers for gliding or flying through the air, EXCEPT for bats.
[Of course, the flippers of seals and whales have elongated finger bones, but
those are for a different purpose.] It's as though Waterloo were the only battle in human history
where the ruler of a country was captured in the immediate aftermath of a victory.

I could go on to tell you about the anatomical aspects of my challenge, but the
relevance of pterosaurs to what I wrote immediately after mentioning them seems
to have gone over your head, so I will close here and see whether anyone will
take up the cudgels for you.

###################### end of second excerpt
from
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/hBwFybXBocU/m/gpNfyEreAAAJ
Re: Evolution's Gaping Hole
May 6, 2021, 5:05:57 PM

Volaticotherium, which certainly refutes my statement *sans* "Cenozoic," is from
the Jurassic period, and is almost as far from ancestry to bats as the monotremes
(modern representatives: platypus, echidna). See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volaticotherium

There is no hint of it having elongated fingers, and the reconstructions do not
show it with them. Bottom line: we still have no fossils of any mammals
besides bats that are known to have elongated fingers used to support structures used for gliding.
Nor do we know of any living mammal or even amniote that doesn't conform to this picture.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer--
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

Re: For Peter

<e92a1b65-3871-41d2-bb66-fb27a11693abn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: For Peter
From: peter2ny...@gmail.com (Peter Nyikos)
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 by: Peter Nyikos - Wed, 2 Jun 2021 01:49 UTC

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 4:59:36 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.

Professor Nyikos to you, whatever your name is.

> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: For Peter
> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>
> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> record. You're wrong here, as usual.

There is no "as usual" about it. As I explained to Glenn earlier today, I was in a big hurry, and
neglected to put "Cenozoic" before "gliding."

And you "neglected" to provide documentation of my having written that, and Glenn
noticed that and asked you for it. And today I explained to him that you were trying
to divert attention from a huge piece of ignorance Burkhard posted and I refuted.

But your cowardice in not rising to Glenn's challenge backfired on you, because I
not only provided the link you dared not provide him, I also documented Burkhard's
folly for all here in sci.bio.paleontology to see. Best of all, it enabled me to explain just how great
our ignorance of how the phylogenetics of bats is. Solidly on-topic for s.b.p.

> We actually have fossils of gliding
> mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic,

A big understatement. The mammal you write about below was all the way back in the Jurassic.

Weren't you curious to learn more about it? There is fascinating information about it just in Wikipedia.

>ever hear of
> *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent comments
> on the subject, lol:

One sentence hardly qualifies as "recent comments". In fact everything else I wrote in reply
to Burkhard was devastating to him and to your evident high regard for him.

>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234

Paywalled beyond the abstract. The next time I am in my university office, I'll see whether
I can get beyond the paywall there.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of So. Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

Re: For Peter

<s9btgh$9rd$1@solani.org>

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Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Re: For Peter
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 20:52:26 -0400
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 by: Oxyaena - Fri, 4 Jun 2021 00:52 UTC

On 6/1/2021 5:41 PM, nyik...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 1:27:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:59:36 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
>>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>>
>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>> Subject: For Peter
>>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>>> From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
>>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>>
>>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
>>> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
>>> record.
>
> I made an earllier reply which I'm deleting, but I don't mind that Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena
> left it in with her trolling reply.
>
>> Support that claim, asshat.
>
> Surprisingly, she can, Glenn, but she didn't in her trolling reply to me, and she probably never
> would have.
>
> Here's why: if she had supported it with proper documentation, it would have made
> people discover what a fool Burkhard made of himself by showing how little he knows
> about what evolutionary science (especially paleontology) has shown and has
> not shown.
>
> Look at Burkhard's ignorant analogy in the following excerpts, where I have added
> some information in brackets:
>
> ______________________ excerpt 1 ______________________________________
>
> [Peter, to jillery, who let Burkhard pinch hit for her:]
>>> I challenge you to cook up a scenario, using the kind of mutations you know about,
>>> which will take a glider like a so-called flying squirrel or a so-called flying phalanger
>>> [two kinds of gliders, not flyers] to a creature with wings like a bat, with each and
>>> every step either favorable to natural selection or at least neutral.
>>>
>>> Note, I wrote "like a bat," not "like a pterosaur". Four long digits for the wing,
>>> only the pollex [1] free for climbing trees, getting along on the ground, manipulating
>>> objects, etc.
>>>
>>> [1] thumb, to people with as little interest in university level biology as yourself
>
> [Peter, addressing Burkhard:]
> One could hardly imagine a challenge that has *less* commonality with mine
> than the one you've cooked up below. But you are excused, because you
> have not shown the slightest knowledge of paleontology.
>
> [Burkhard:]
>> And I challenge you to give an account of Wellington' victory at
>> Waterloo that takes a "deployment of troops to eventual victory"
>> scenario that accounts for the trajectory of every bullet fired. Would
>> be about as meaningful
>
> [Peter:]
> We have NO known fossils of any gliding mammals, let alone flying ones, before the
> first bat fossils,
>
> ================= end of first excerpt ======================
>
> I was very much pressed for time, and so I carelessly left out the word "Cenozoic"
> before "gliding mammals." The essential point is unchanged: there are no known
> mammals that could shed any light on bat ancestry by having any kind of
> gliding capability. They would have to be restricted to lineages that survived the great K-T extinction.
>
> *************************** begin second excerpt ************************
>
> which had wings almost exactly like modern bats. It's as though
> historians knew that armies of Britain and Prussia were arrayed against
> Napoleon before the battle, and then knew that Napoleon had become a captive of the
> British after the battle, but no records or artifacts were known of the Battle
> of Waterloo itself, and they had to figure out what MIGHT have happened during the
> battle just on the basis of what is known of battles in general.
>
> Wait, it's even worse: there are no known examples of any mammals, fossil or living,
> with elongated fingers for gliding or flying through the air, EXCEPT for bats.
> [Of course, the flippers of seals and whales have elongated finger bones, but
> those are for a different purpose.] It's as though Waterloo were the only battle in human history
> where the ruler of a country was captured in the immediate aftermath of a victory.
>
>
> I could go on to tell you about the anatomical aspects of my challenge, but the
> relevance of pterosaurs to what I wrote immediately after mentioning them seems
> to have gone over your head, so I will close here and see whether anyone will
> take up the cudgels for you.
>
> ###################### end of second excerpt
> from
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/hBwFybXBocU/m/gpNfyEreAAAJ
> Re: Evolution's Gaping Hole
> May 6, 2021, 5:05:57 PM
>
> Volaticotherium, which certainly refutes my statement *sans* "Cenozoic," is from
> the Jurassic period, and is almost as far from ancestry to bats as the monotremes
> (modern representatives: platypus, echidna). See:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volaticotherium
>
> There is no hint of it having elongated fingers, and the reconstructions do not
> show it with them. Bottom line: we still have no fossils of any mammals
> besides bats that are known to have elongated fingers used to support structures used for gliding.
> Nor do we know of any living mammal or even amniote that doesn't conform to this picture.

However, we do know that the femur of *Volaticotherium* was particularly
resistant to flight-based pressures, according to Wikipedia at least,
and that this *also* made terrestrial locomotion cumbersome at best.
Make of this what you will, but I think it's too important a detail to
be left out. It does at least contain an example of a species in
morphological transition, judging from the fact that the species
evidently found terrestrial locomotion awkward at best, like bats, and
found aeronautic locomotion much easier to withstand, again like bats.
There's still the detail of the bats and their elongated fingers which
you are correct about for now at least, but I suspect as we continue
digging we'll find something eventually. Maybe think of
*Volaticotherium* as a morphological analogue to a pre-proto-bat.

>
>
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
> University of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer--
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>

Re: For Peter

<s9d92f$71g$1@solani.org>

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From: oxya...@invalid.invalid (Oxyaena)
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Subject: Re: For Peter
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 09:15:51 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <s9btgh$9rd$1@solani.org>
 by: Oxyaena - Fri, 4 Jun 2021 13:15 UTC

On 6/3/2021 8:52 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 6/1/2021 5:41 PM, nyik...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 1:27:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:59:36 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>>>>
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject: For Peter
>>>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
>>>> From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
>>>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>>>>
>>>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
>>>> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
>>>> record.
>>
>> I made an earllier reply which I'm deleting, but I don't mind that
>> Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena
>> left it in with her trolling reply.
>>
>>> Support that claim, asshat.
>>
>> Surprisingly, she can, Glenn, but she didn't in her trolling reply to
>> me, and she probably never
>> would have.
>>
>> Here's why: if she had supported it with proper documentation, it
>> would have made
>> people discover what a fool Burkhard made of himself by showing how
>> little he knows
>> about what evolutionary science (especially paleontology)  has shown
>> and has
>> not shown.
>>
>> Look at Burkhard's ignorant analogy in the following excerpts, where I
>> have added
>> some information in brackets:
>>
>> ______________________ excerpt 1 ______________________________________
>>
>> [Peter, to jillery, who let Burkhard pinch hit for her:]
>>>> I challenge you to cook up a scenario, using the kind of mutations
>>>> you know about,
>>>> which will take a glider like a so-called flying squirrel or a
>>>> so-called flying phalanger
>>>> [two kinds of gliders, not flyers] to a creature with wings like a
>>>> bat, with each and
>>>> every step either favorable to natural selection or at least neutral.
>>>>
>>>> Note, I wrote "like a bat," not "like a pterosaur". Four long digits
>>>> for the wing,
>>>> only the pollex [1] free for climbing trees, getting along on the
>>>> ground, manipulating
>>>> objects, etc.
>>>>
>>>> [1] thumb, to people with as little interest in university level
>>>> biology as yourself
>>
>> [Peter, addressing Burkhard:]
>> One could hardly imagine a challenge that has *less* commonality with
>> mine
>> than the one you've cooked up below. But you are excused, because you
>> have not shown the slightest knowledge of paleontology.
>>
>> [Burkhard:]
>>> And I challenge you to give an account of Wellington' victory at
>>> Waterloo that takes a "deployment of troops to eventual victory"
>>> scenario that accounts for the trajectory of every bullet fired. Would
>>> be about as meaningful
>>
>> [Peter:]
>> We have NO known fossils of any gliding mammals, let alone flying
>> ones, before the
>> first bat fossils,
>>
>> ================= end of first excerpt ======================
>>
>> I was very much pressed for time, and so I carelessly left out the
>> word "Cenozoic"
>> before "gliding mammals."  The essential point is unchanged: there are
>> no known
>> mammals that could shed any light on bat ancestry by having any kind of
>> gliding capability. They would have to be restricted to lineages that
>> survived the great K-T extinction.
>>
>> *************************** begin second excerpt ************************
>>
>> which had wings almost exactly like modern bats. It's as though
>> historians knew that armies of Britain and Prussia were arrayed against
>> Napoleon before the battle, and then knew that Napoleon had become a
>> captive of the
>> British after the battle, but no records or artifacts were known of
>> the Battle
>> of Waterloo itself, and they had to figure out what MIGHT have
>> happened during the
>> battle just on the basis of what is known of battles in general.
>>
>> Wait, it's even worse: there are no known examples of any mammals,
>> fossil or living,
>> with elongated fingers for gliding or flying through the air, EXCEPT
>> for bats.
>> [Of course, the flippers of seals and whales have elongated finger
>> bones, but
>> those are for a different purpose.] It's as though Waterloo were the
>> only battle in human history
>> where the ruler of a country was captured in the immediate aftermath
>> of a victory.
>>
>>
>> I could go on to tell you about the anatomical aspects of my
>> challenge, but the
>> relevance of pterosaurs to what I wrote immediately after mentioning
>> them seems
>> to have gone over your head, so I will close here and see whether
>> anyone will
>> take up the cudgels for you.
>>
>> ###################### end of second excerpt
>> from
>> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/hBwFybXBocU/m/gpNfyEreAAAJ
>> Re: Evolution's Gaping Hole
>> May 6, 2021, 5:05:57 PM
>>
>> Volaticotherium,  which certainly refutes my statement *sans*
>> "Cenozoic," is from
>> the Jurassic period, and is almost as far from ancestry to bats as the
>> monotremes
>> (modern representatives: platypus, echidna). See:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volaticotherium
>>
>> There is no hint of it having elongated fingers, and the
>> reconstructions do not
>> show it with them. Bottom line: we still have no fossils of any mammals
>> besides bats that are known to have elongated fingers used to support
>> structures used for gliding.
>> Nor do we know of any living mammal or even amniote that doesn't
>> conform to this picture.
>
> However, we do know that the femur of *Volaticotherium* was particularly
> resistant to flight-based pressures, according to Wikipedia at least,
> and that this *also* made terrestrial locomotion cumbersome at best.
> Make of this what you will, but I think it's too important a detail to
> be left out. It does at least contain an example of a species in
> morphological transition, judging from the fact that the species
> evidently found terrestrial locomotion awkward at best, like bats, and
> found aeronautic locomotion much easier to withstand, again like bats.
> There's still the detail of the bats and their elongated fingers which
> you are correct about for now at least, but I suspect as we continue
> digging we'll find something eventually. Maybe think of
> *Volaticotherium* as a morphological analogue to a pre-proto-bat.

To clarify about the femural anatomy: If its relative *Argentoconodon*
is anything to go by, its femur lacks a femural head and is "relatively
incompetent when it comes to rotational movement" but makes up for it in
its increased ability to "extend the leg and withstand flight stresses."
(Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentoconodon)

So while it may not be what you're looking for, I'd say it *is* in the
ballpark of what you're looking for, at least in terms of direct
morphological analogues to our hypothetical proto-bats.

>
>>
>>
>> Peter Nyikos
>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
>> University of South Carolina  -- standard disclaimer--
>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>
>

Re: For Peter

<96d96d82-5eeb-4dbd-a194-d1f7907cb086n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: For Peter
From: peter2ny...@gmail.com (Peter Nyikos)
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 by: Peter Nyikos - Thu, 10 Jun 2021 23:14 UTC

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 8:52:35 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 6/1/2021 5:41 PM, nyik...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 1:27:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> >> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:59:36 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
> >>> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
> >>>
> >>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> >>> Subject: For Peter
> >>> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> >>> From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
> >>> Newsgroups: talk.origins
> >>>
> >>> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> >>> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> >>> record.
> >
> > I made an earllier reply which I'm deleting, but I don't mind that Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena
> > left it in with her trolling reply.
> >
> >> Support that claim, asshat.
> >
> > Surprisingly, she can, Glenn, but she didn't in her trolling reply to me, and she probably never
> > would have.
> >
> > Here's why: if she had supported it with proper documentation, it would have made
> > people discover what a fool Burkhard made of himself by showing how little he knows
> > about what evolutionary science (especially paleontology) has shown and has
> > not shown.
> >
> > Look at Burkhard's ignorant analogy in the following excerpts, where I have added
> > some information in brackets:
> >
> > ______________________ excerpt 1 ______________________________________
> >
> > [Peter, to jillery, who let Burkhard pinch hit for her:]
> >>> I challenge you to cook up a scenario, using the kind of mutations you know about,
> >>> which will take a glider like a so-called flying squirrel or a so-called flying phalanger
> >>> [two kinds of gliders, not flyers] to a creature with wings like a bat, with each and
> >>> every step either favorable to natural selection or at least neutral.
> >>>
> >>> Note, I wrote "like a bat," not "like a pterosaur". Four long digits for the wing,
> >>> only the pollex [1] free for climbing trees, getting along on the ground, manipulating
> >>> objects, etc.
> >>>
> >>> [1] thumb, to people with as little interest in university level biology as yourself
> >
> > [Peter, addressing Burkhard:]
> > One could hardly imagine a challenge that has *less* commonality with mine
> > than the one you've cooked up below. But you are excused, because you
> > have not shown the slightest knowledge of paleontology.
> >
> > [Burkhard:]
> >> And I challenge you to give an account of Wellington' victory at
> >> Waterloo that takes a "deployment of troops to eventual victory"
> >> scenario that accounts for the trajectory of every bullet fired. Would
> >> be about as meaningful
> >
> > [Peter:]
> > We have NO known fossils of any gliding mammals, let alone flying ones, before the
> > first bat fossils,
> >
> > ================= end of first excerpt ======================
> >
> > I was very much pressed for time, and so I carelessly left out the word "Cenozoic"
> > before "gliding mammals." The essential point is unchanged: there are no known
> > mammals that could shed any light on bat ancestry by having any kind of
> > gliding capability. They would have to be restricted to lineages that survived the great K-T extinction.
> >
> > *************************** begin second excerpt ************************
> >
> > which had wings almost exactly like modern bats. It's as though
> > historians knew that armies of Britain and Prussia were arrayed against
> > Napoleon before the battle, and then knew that Napoleon had become a captive of the
> > British after the battle, but no records or artifacts were known of the Battle
> > of Waterloo itself, and they had to figure out what MIGHT have happened during the
> > battle just on the basis of what is known of battles in general.
> >
> > Wait, it's even worse: there are no known examples of any mammals, fossil or living,
> > with elongated fingers for gliding or flying through the air, EXCEPT for bats.
> > [Of course, the flippers of seals and whales have elongated finger bones, but
> > those are for a different purpose.] It's as though Waterloo were the only battle in human history
> > where the ruler of a country was captured in the immediate aftermath of a victory.
> >
> >
> > I could go on to tell you about the anatomical aspects of my challenge, but the
> > relevance of pterosaurs to what I wrote immediately after mentioning them seems
> > to have gone over your head, so I will close here and see whether anyone will
> > take up the cudgels for you.
> >
> > ###################### end of second excerpt
> > from
> > https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/hBwFybXBocU/m/gpNfyEreAAAJ
> > Re: Evolution's Gaping Hole
> > May 6, 2021, 5:05:57 PM
> >
> > Volaticotherium, which certainly refutes my statement *sans* "Cenozoic," is from
> > the Jurassic period, and is almost as far from ancestry to bats as the monotremes
> > (modern representatives: platypus, echidna). See:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volaticotherium
> >
> > There is no hint of it having elongated fingers, and the reconstructions do not
> > show it with them. Bottom line: we still have no fossils of any mammals
> > besides bats that are known to have elongated fingers used to support structures used for gliding.
> > Nor do we know of any living mammal or even amniote that doesn't conform to this picture.

> However, we do know that the femur of *Volaticotherium* was particularly
> resistant to flight-based pressures, according to Wikipedia at least,
> and that this *also* made terrestrial locomotion cumbersome at best.

I'd need to investigate this further, by reading the reference.
I'll be going in to my office tomorrow, and will see whether the $9 paywall
doesn't apply to me there.

> Make of this what you will, but I think it's too important a detail to
> be left out. It does at least contain an example of a species in
> morphological transition, judging from the fact that the species
> evidently found terrestrial locomotion awkward at best, like bats,

Whether to the same extent, is highly debatable. The femur would have
to be very oddly shaped for that.

> and found aeronautic locomotion much easier to withstand, again like bats.

There is no comparison between gliding and full flight. For a glider it has
to be established on a case by case basis, given that there seem to be
much fewer stresses inherent in gliding than in flying.

> There's still the detail of the bats and their elongated fingers which
> you are correct about for now at least, but I suspect as we continue
> digging we'll find something eventually.

"eventually" could mean another century or more. It's taken that long
to find a fossil that is marginally more primitive than present day bats.
It was already a full fledged flyer, with essentially modern wing structure.

> Maybe think of *Volaticotherium* as a morphological analogue to a pre-proto-bat.

It is too early to think like that. One could, however, try to make a case for
there to be a huge riddle about how intermediate forms could have been
at an advantage towards their immediate ancestors and also at a disadvantage
towards their immediate descendants, if orthodox Darwinian theory is to be upheld.

That is the biggest riddle of bat evolution, and before long I will go into why it
is such a huge riddle, over and above the lack of fossils of intermediates.

> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
> > University of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer--
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> >

By the way, I'm relieved to see the lack of hostility in this reply of yours.

Re: For Peter

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Subject: Re: For Peter
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 by: Peter Nyikos - Thu, 10 Jun 2021 23:39 UTC

On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 9:16:01 AM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:

> To clarify about the femural anatomy: If its relative *Argentoconodon*
> is anything to go by, its femur lacks a femural head and is "relatively
> incompetent when it comes to rotational movement" but makes up for it in
> its increased ability to "extend the leg and withstand flight stresses."
> (Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentoconodon)

This secondary source leads nowhere. Its reference [3] for what you are
paraphrasing is to an article that talks about nothing but teeth.

Reference [3] is an interesting article for those wanting to locate *Argentoconodon* in
a phylogenetic tree which includes Morganucodon as well as various clades of (mostly Mesozoic)
mammals, and at least it is not paywalled like the Wikipedia article on *Volaticotherium*,
so I'm giving the url for it here:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02724634.2011.589877

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

Re: For Peter

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Subject: Re: For Peter
From: peter2ny...@gmail.com (Peter Nyikos)
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 by: Peter Nyikos - Thu, 10 Jun 2021 23:49 UTC

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 7:39:36 PM UTC-4, Peter Nyikos wrote:

> Reference [3] is an interesting article for those wanting to locate *Argentoconodon* in
> a phylogenetic tree which includes Morganucodon as well as various clades of (mostly Mesozoic)
> mammals, and at least it is not paywalled like the Wikipedia article on *Volaticotherium*,

I meant, like the article in _Nature_ that the Wikipedia entry on *Volaticotherium* references for the advantages
of the femur for gliding and its drawbacks for terrestrial locomotion.

> so I'm giving the url for it here:
>
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02724634.2011.589877
>
>
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

A Jurassic gliding mammal WAS: Re: Fwd: For Peter

<3f336c15-97fc-492c-9d90-e8837dbc9103n@googlegroups.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3053&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3053

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Subject: A Jurassic gliding mammal WAS: Re: Fwd: For Peter
From: peter2ny...@gmail.com (Peter Nyikos)
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 by: Peter Nyikos - Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:11 UTC

Success! In my departmental office, the article in _Nature_ on *Volaticotherium* is not paywalled,
thanks to my university's privileged access to this and many other scientific journals,
and my position on the faculty.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:25:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:

> On 5/16/21 1:20 AM, Oxyaena wrote:
> > On 5/15/2021 9:44 PM, John Harshman wrote:
> >> On 5/15/21 5:55 PM, Oxyaena wrote:
> >>> On 5/15/2021 8:45 PM, John Harshman wrote:

I've downloaded a pdf of the article, and will be studying it carefully over the weekend.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234

If you wish, I could email the pdf to you, John.
> >>>> I hadn't heard of it either. Thanks. But is it necessary to be so
> >>>> hostile right off the bat? Or ever?
> >>>
> >>> You're welcome, and in regards to Peter, why should I be civil to
> >>> someone who will treat me like I'm the spawn of Satan anyway?

Oxyaena was just getting in touch with her inner Thrinaxodon here.
She surprised me by being quite civil to me when I acknowledged that I
had indeed expressed myself incorrectly about the complete
absence of gliding mammals before bats appeared; I had in mind only Cenozoic
mammals, but I did misspeak.

> >> So, do unto others before they do unto you? Is that what you're saying?
> >

<snip Oxyaena continuing to be in touch with her inner Thrinaxodon>

> >
> >> I've found that Peter is occasionally capable of civilized behavior.

A tremendous understatement. From April 2015 until early 2018, we were
unfailingly civil to each other here in s.b.p., you and I. Oxyaena and I were in
a different category. She never signed on to our 2015 agreement, which also
included Erik Simpson and Richard Norman.

> >> Why not give him a chance to do it again?
> >
> > I've tried that before, it always ends up failing some way or another.
> > Not worth my time.

See above. After I acknowledged my mistake, Oxyaena posted two solidly on-topic statements
about *Volaticotherium*, and I responded with solidly on-topic commentary.

Does Giganews treat this post like a new thread, now that I've altered the Subject line?
If so, you can access our discussion under the original Subject line, still preserved in the new one.

> Then I suppose this isn't worth my time. Carry on.

I do hope you find *Volaticotherium* worth your time, John. I'm fascinated
by it, for reasons on which I will expound, come Monday.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

PS One thing that may interest you: the phylogenetic tree in the article places *Volaticotherium*
inside the crown group of Mammalia, but only a tad closer to us than are monotremes.

Re: For Peter

<99f66454-e923-4647-9649-124e0817496dn@googlegroups.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3404&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3404

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Subject: Re: For Peter
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Mon, 13 Sep 2021 03:42 UTC

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 4:59:36 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: For Peter
> Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
> Newsgroups: talk.origins
>
> You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have fossils of gliding
> mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever hear of
> *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent comments
> on the subject, lol:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234

Nice catch Oxyeana. I claimed that modern gliders are all plant eaters, but didn't think of ancient insectivorous gliders.

Highly specialized insectivorous dentition and a sizable patagium (flying membrane) for gliding flight. The patagium is covered with dense hair and supported by an elongated tail and limbs; the latter also bear many features adapted for arboreal life. This discovery extends the earliest record of gliding flight for mammals to at least 70 million years earlier in geological history...

Re: For Peter

<10bc4f59-3da9-4fc3-9966-60a8e73e0eaen@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: For Peter
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Mon, 13 Sep 2021 03:52 UTC

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:43:00 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 4:59:36 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> > Forwarding it here in case Professor Asshat doesn't see it.
> >
> > -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > Subject: For Peter
> > Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:58:45 -0400
> > From: Oxyaena <oxy...@invalid.invalid>
> > Newsgroups: talk.origins
> >
> > You, Peter, said that there are no fossils of any gliding mammals or
> > flying mammals prior to the first appearance of bats in the fossil
> > record. You're wrong here, as usual. We actually have fossils of gliding
> > mammals dating back as far as the Mesozoic, ever hear of
> > *Volaticotherium*, Peter? I doubt it, considering your recent comments
> > on the subject, lol:
> >
> > https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05234
> Nice catch Oxyaena. I claimed that modern gliders are all plant eaters, but didn't think of ancient insectivorous gliders.
>
> Highly specialized insectivorous dentition and a sizable patagium (flying membrane) for gliding flight. The patagium is covered with dense hair and supported by an elongated tail and limbs; the latter also bear many features adapted for arboreal life. This discovery extends the earliest record of gliding flight for mammals to at least 70 million years earlier in geological history...

(Sorry for misspelling)

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