Moshe- Check the Wings & Wheels website. Sotecc also has fuselage flashers for either the top or bottom of the fuselage.

https://wingsandwheels.com/sotecc-strobe.html

Also rather expensive, but a viable solution for all around visibility.

Don't know if this would work as an effective external omnidirectional strobe, but it might be worth checking out.

https://www.oracletx.com/product/oracle-9-led-omni-directional-emergency-strobe-white/

I don't particularly like the 1-inch hole mounting, but it might work in the inspection cover on my glider.

Perhaps car headlights would be brighter than reversing lights, or there are even aircraft landing lights

Or maybe something like these light bars

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07SY7LLYX/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/HELLA-1FB-358-176-211-Headlight/dp/B09K998WFK/

I just looked at some Aerosun landing lights or strobes. $320 or $350, so I can see why you're hoping for a bit cheaper

On Saturday, 19 November 2022 at 20:05:59 UTC, Mark Mocho wrote:
> It looks good, but I wish there was way gliders slightly below you could see it.
> Sotecc also has streamlined fuselage flashers for top, bottom or both, but they are also expensive. I am looking for something that might work as a fuselage flasher. These look interesting, but at 50 Watts, the power draw may be prohibitive.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Yorkim-Bright-Lights-Reverse-Chipsets/dp/B01A4Z3FOS

On 11/20/2022 5:55 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 4:54:38 PM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>> Next easy test is take it to the runway and see how far away you see it effectively.
>>> Comparing to store bought would be an even better measure
>> That is pretty much the plan, but I don't know of any installed Sotecc units at the field yet. One is scheduled for installation sometime this winter, but I don't know when. I am going to get my installation completed and try it outside this week. Will let you know the results.
>
> My 29 has a fin mounted strobe and it6 is reported to be very visible in crummy conditions FWIW. Probably a somewhat wider viewing angle side to side and vertical. Not practical to try to replicate after market.
> The effort is a good one.
> UH
>

Bicyclists have even less battery capacity on hand, and some of them now
use tail flashers that seem visible from about a quarter mile away even
in sunshine. The trick seems to be the directionality of the beam: only
straight rearwards? For example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W62CCL2
or a slimmer but somewhat less bright model:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YFDFXY4 - I wonder if any bike light would
be worth putting into a glider as-is? Would need to add a fairing
between it and the canopy.

"Not practical to try to replicate after market."

On the leading edge of the tail seems a really neat place.
Would it become practical if one repurposed the rear battery wires?

On 11/20/22 16:55, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 4:54:38 PM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>> Next easy test is take it to the runway and see how far away you see it effectively.
>>> Comparing to store bought would be an even better measure
>> That is pretty much the plan, but I don't know of any installed Sotecc units at the field yet. One is scheduled for installation sometime this winter, but I don't know when. I am going to get my installation completed and try it outside this week. Will let you know the results.
>
> My 29 has a fin mounted strobe and it6 is reported to be very visible in crummy conditions FWIW. Probably a somewhat wider viewing angle side to side and vertical. Not practical to try to replicate after market.
> The effort is a good one.
> UH

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W62CCL2
or a slimmer but somewhat less bright model:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YFDFXY4 - I wonder if any bike light would
be worth putting into a glider as-is?

The two examples you list have 90 and 350 lumens. The Sotecc advertises 5,000 lumens. I am trying flashers with about 2,500 lumens, and I am not sure even they are bright enough.

On 11/21/2022 6:48 AM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 11/20/2022 5:55 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 4:54:38 PM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>> Next easy test is take it to the runway and see how far away you see it effectively.
>>>> Comparing to store bought would be an even better measure
>>> That is pretty much the plan, but I don't know of any installed Sotecc units at the
>>> field yet. One is scheduled for installation sometime this winter, but I don't know
>>> when. I am going to get my installation completed and try it outside this week. Will
>>> let you know the results.
>>
>> My 29 has a fin mounted strobe and it6 is reported to be very visible in crummy
>> conditions FWIW. Probably a somewhat wider viewing angle side to side and vertical. Not
>> practical to try to replicate after market.
>> The effort is a good one.
>> UH
>>
>
> Bicyclists have even less battery capacity on hand, and some of them now use tail flashers
> that seem visible from about a quarter mile away even in sunshine.  The trick seems to be
> the directionality of the beam: only straight rearwards?  For example:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W62CCL2 or a slimmer but somewhat less bright model:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YFDFXY4 - I wonder if any bike light would be worth putting
> into a glider as-is?  Would need to add a fairing between it and the canopy.

Or this focused, high intensity unit from Garmin that can be seen a mile in daylight:

"Garmin Varia UT 800 Smart Headlight Urban Edition"

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

I think it would also involve reworking the leading edge structure

It looks like the LED packaging goes to several mm back from the l.e. apex, so I assume there are temporary inserts on both mould halves during manufacture, to produce a blunt shape as a base for it.

Doing it afterwards would be like cutting an inch or two off the front then going from there, with maybe something like a flared U channel joined to both sides

And that scheme might be sufficiently different from the original manufacture as to need separate approval.

On Monday, 21 November 2022 at 14:59:59 UTC, Stuart Venters wrote:
> "Not practical to try to replicate after market."
> On the leading edge of the tail seems a really neat place.
> Would it become practical if one repurposed the rear battery wire

Wires are trivial.
The issue is structural.
On the gliders we fly the leading edge is either a butt joint , or most commonly, a lap joint where both skins are glued together, and usually having a quantity of epoxy/filler to bulk up the joint. This joint is one of the major structural elements that resist torsion. If one were to remove this area over the amount on my glider, about 12 inches, one would then have to fabricate a channel shaped part that would transfer the loads. Also producing a new face to match the leading edge profile and have the right transmission properties is another task requiring non common expertise. It can be done, but this is way beyond the kind of a thing a hobby type person should be doing.
UH

I seem to recall a glider (not sure what brand/model) at one SSA convention that had a fin mounted LED flasher that appeared to be "scarfed" on the leading edge. Looked like a molded housing with a long LED strip down the middle. You'd still have the hassle of running the wires, but at least you wouldn't have the challenge (and legal issues) of modifying the structure. Anybody else remember this?

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 3:25:40 PM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 11/20/2022 1:42 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
> >> But neither "some light off axis", nor omnidirectional top and bottom
> >> strobes, would be bright enough to see from much distance. At least not
> >> with a power consumption that seems acceptable, e.g., under 0.2 amps.
> >>
> >> I think that in order to make the best decisions on which directions to
> >> send the light to, we should determine which directions are the most
> >> likely collision directions. And ignore directions that are not visible
> >> anyway. E.g., at least from a glider cockpit, you can't look down, nor
> >> above-and-behind. Thus if one glider is following above and behind
> >> another one, no strobe location will help either see the other.
> >
> > OK, since the infallible Moshe Braner has decreed that there is no effective solution, I shall immediately suspend all efforts to improve glider-to-glider visibility. Thanks, Moshe!
> >
> > And I have also discovered that there is a group with equal infallibility called the "Man Will Never Fly Society." Therefore, I urge you all to immediately sell your aircraft to some unsuspecting neophyte who believes otherwise.
> >
> I didn't say there is no solution, and I support your efforts Mark! And
> I'm dabbling in the same approach (plus software) myself. Just trying
> to discuss what would be the most effective approach, given the limited
> power supply. Sotecc clearly think that a forward-only strobe is the
> best compromise. That may or may not be true. E.g., I was proposing we
> consider the pros and cons of having two strobes, aimed somewhat right
> and left of forward.

I believe forward-facing LED flashers would be the best compromise, due to what has already been brought up regarding closing speeds/times for head-on encounters. When approaching from the side or behind, closing speeds are typically much lower than head-on encounters, giving more time to react. As such, I believe head-on encounters to be more critical with regard to visibility.

Thanks for experimenting with this, Mark! I'm glad to hear innovation is not dead yet.

I think the nose (or canopy forward) installation is the most important, due to the closing rate on head on conflicts.
More bang for the buck... well, least "bang".

Second most important would be 90-degree closure. A top, belly or dual-wingtip option would work there but it's difficult to see
how to install it.

On 11/19/22 9:55 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
> True enough. Off-axis bearings are much less visible with the current configuration, but once again, anything is better than nothing. It is like relying solely on Flarm, knowing that intermittent contacts are common due to poor antenna placement, blockage of the signal by carbon fiber fuselages, inability to interpret warnings quickly, and other factors. None of these reasons are valid excuses to NOT have Flarm; they are merely caveats to remind us that nothing is perfect.
>
> I am also going to experiment with side mounted flashers inside the canopy. Of course, power requirements will be higher, but nothing like what is needed for standard xenon anti-collision lights. Bright LED technology is quite amazing, considering the low cost, low energy demand and light weight. True 360-degree coverage in both horizontal and vertical planes is not feasible, but as I said before, anything is better than the current "stealth" mode.
>
> I have also learned that LED lights can be made substantially brighter by increasing the power, at the penalty of reduced life. I don't really have any method of testing this, as the flashers are already so bright that they are potentially damaging to the eye if viewed for more than a few seconds at close range. And I am not sure whether boosting the input voltage would do anything with commercially available, inexpensive flashers which may have over-voltage protection circuitry.
>
> Having observed the Sotecc flashers a few times this last season, I can attest that, under certain conditions (like under a cloud shadow), two miles is entirely possible. I have seen the red flash before a glider is discernable a couple of times.

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:13:04 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
> I seem to recall a glider (not sure what brand/model) at one SSA convention that had a fin mounted LED flasher that appeared to be "scarfed" on the leading edge. Looked like a molded housing with a long LED strip down the middle. You'd still have the hassle of running the wires, but at least you wouldn't have the challenge (and legal issues) of modifying the structure. Anybody else remember this?
That would be a Alisport Silent 11. Yet it is a Motorglider . This is an excellent light, could be incorporated into current models of sailplanes and is extremely bright. Even Old Bob, The Purist knows a bit about motorgliders

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:13:04 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
> I seem to recall a glider (not sure what brand/model) at one SSA convention that had a fin mounted LED flasher that appeared to be "scarfed" on the leading edge. Looked like a molded housing with a long LED strip down the middle. You'd still have the hassle of running the wires, but at least you wouldn't have the challenge (and legal issues) of modifying the structure. Anybody else remember this?
ASG-29 has a LE fin mounted LED as an option, "UH" has one and he has had good comments on it. But again, this was a factory option when the glider was built, not an aftermarket unit.

For those interested in building a canopy strobe / flasher: software now
available for controlling such a device. Including increasing the
flashing frequency when an attached FLARM gives a collision warning.
And other features.
https://github.com/moshe-braner/SoftRF/tree/master/software/firmware/binaries/ESP32/SkyStrobe

Just found these:
https://luxlightingsystems.com/products/max-rgb-color-changing-led-rock-lights
A bit more expensive, but they appear to be nearly ideal for what I am trying to do.

On 12/10/2022 2:32 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
> Just found these:
> https://luxlightingsystems.com/products/max-rgb-color-changing-led-rock-lights
> A bit more expensive, but they appear to be nearly ideal for what I am trying to do.
>

Interesting! What in the world is a "rock light" - people mount then
UNDER jeeps? Does the polymer body diffuse the light into all
directions? Are you planning to use these mounted on the outside of a
glider? They're supposed to "mount" on steel objects via the built-in
magnets - will you glue them instead? Will you use only the red LEDs
within?

On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 10:00:44 AM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 12/10/2022 2:32 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
> > Just found these:
> > https://luxlightingsystems.com/products/max-rgb-color-changing-led-rock-lights
> > A bit more expensive, but they appear to be nearly ideal for what I am trying to do.
> >
> Interesting! What in the world is a "rock light" - people mount then
> UNDER jeeps? Does the polymer body diffuse the light into all
> directions? Are you planning to use these mounted on the outside of a
> glider? They're supposed to "mount" on steel objects via the built-in
> magnets - will you glue them instead? Will you use only the red LEDs
> within?
Yes, under an off-road vehicle for night trail running or rock crawling.
The directions state "mount on metal with the magnets", we understand it has to be a ferrous metal like steel in a car/truck. The magnets are also part of the heatsink, thus that has to be considered as the steel mounting panel is more surface area for heat dissipation for longer LED life.

On 12/11/2022 10:24 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 10:00:44 AM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
>> On 12/10/2022 2:32 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>> Just found these:
>>> https://luxlightingsystems.com/products/max-rgb-color-changing-led-rock-lights
>>> A bit more expensive, but they appear to be nearly ideal for what I am trying to do.
>>>
>> Interesting! What in the world is a "rock light" - people mount then
>> UNDER jeeps? Does the polymer body diffuse the light into all
>> directions? Are you planning to use these mounted on the outside of a
>> glider? They're supposed to "mount" on steel objects via the built-in
>> magnets - will you glue them instead? Will you use only the red LEDs
>> within?
> Yes, under an off-road vehicle for night trail running or rock crawling.
> The directions state "mount on metal with the magnets", we understand it has to be a ferrous metal like steel in a car/truck. The magnets are also part of the heatsink, thus that has to be considered as the steel mounting panel is more surface area for heat dissipation for longer LED life.
>

The heat dissipation is needed if they are continuously lit. In use as
a glider strobe, they would be driven (even over-driven) in short
pulses. Thus much less heat is generated. E.g., the LED module I'm
first trying out is rated 1 watt per LED, I drive them at 2 watts for
short pulses. The default in my "SkyStrobe" software is one burst every
2.4 seconds, each burst 3 flashes of 40 milliseconds each. Thus the
LEDs are lit only 4% of the time - 25 times less heat. That increases
to 20% of the time when flashing more frequently due to FLARM reporting
a collision warning. (These are preliminary timings, will tweak as
experience is gained in actual use. And there's a way to change the
defaults.) The software (which can also drive buzzer warnings) runs on
a $10 microcontroller.

On 12/11/2022 10:47 AM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 10:24 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 10:00:44 AM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
>>> On 12/10/2022 2:32 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>> Just found these:
>>>> https://luxlightingsystems.com/products/max-rgb-color-changing-led-rock-lights
>>>>
>>>> A bit more expensive, but they appear to be nearly ideal for what I
>>>> am trying to do.
>>>>
>>> Interesting! What in the world is a "rock light" - people mount then
>>> UNDER jeeps? Does the polymer body diffuse the light into all
>>> directions? Are you planning to use these mounted on the outside of a
>>> glider? They're supposed to "mount" on steel objects via the built-in
>>> magnets - will you glue them instead? Will you use only the red LEDs
>>> within?
>> Yes, under an off-road vehicle for night trail running or rock crawling.
>> The directions state "mount on metal with the magnets", we understand
>> it has to be a ferrous metal like steel in a car/truck. The magnets
>> are also part of the heatsink, thus that has to be considered as the
>> steel mounting panel is more surface area for heat dissipation for
>> longer LED life.
>>
>
> The heat dissipation is needed if they are continuously lit.  In use as
> a glider strobe, they would be driven (even over-driven) in short
> pulses.  Thus much less heat is generated.  E.g., the LED module I'm
> first trying out is rated 1 watt per LED, I drive them at 2 watts for
> short pulses.  The default in my "SkyStrobe" software is one burst every
> 2.4 seconds, each burst 3 flashes of 40 milliseconds each.  Thus the
> LEDs are lit only 4% of the time - 25 times less heat.  That increases
> to 20% of the time when flashing more frequently due to FLARM reporting
> a collision warning.  (These are preliminary timings, will tweak as
> experience is gained in actual use.  And there's a way to change the
> defaults.)  The software (which can also drive buzzer warnings) runs on
> a $10 microcontroller.

Correction: that's 5%. The 4% came from my previous default, two 50 ms
flashes every 2500 ms. I find the triple-flash, which is spread over
more time, to be more eye-catching than the double-flash. At 8 watts
momentary total (with 4 LEDs X 2 watts each), the 5% duty cycle is 0.4
watts average, or about a 0.03 amp drain on your battery. The
microcontroller alone will use a similar additional amount! The total
power consumption is similar to a simple audio vario. Could easily
accommodate one or two additional LED modules.

Not wanting to place my GPS antennae too close together, I used magnetic
mount antennae attached to steel washers that I glued to the canopy
rails in my glider. During canopy jettison, they'll simply pull off.

Dan
5J

On 12/11/22 08:00, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 12/10/2022 2:32 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>> Just found these:
>> https://luxlightingsystems.com/products/max-rgb-color-changing-led-rock-lights
>> A bit more expensive, but they appear to be nearly ideal for what I am
>> trying to do.
>>
>
> Interesting!  What in the world is a "rock light" - people mount then
> UNDER jeeps?  Does the polymer body diffuse the light into all
> directions?  Are you planning to use these mounted on the outside of a
> glider? They're supposed to "mount" on steel objects via the built-in
> magnets - will you glue them instead?  Will you use only the red LEDs
> within?
>