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tech / rec.aviation.military / A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

SubjectAuthor
* A Quora on the Proximity Fuzea425couple
+- Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
+* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
|`* Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuzea425couple
| +* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
| |`* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeDean Markley
| | `- Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
| +- Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuzea425couple
| +* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
| |`- Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeKeith Willshaw
| `- Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzePeter Stickney
`* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeKeith Willshaw
 +* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
 |`* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeKeith Willshaw
 | +* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeKeith Willshaw
 | |`- Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
 | `* Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins
 |  `- Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeDavid Lesher
 `- Re: A Quora on the Proximity FuzeJim Wilkins

1
A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: a425couple - Wed, 2 Feb 2022 16:22 UTC

Maryellen Reilly
Pharmacist1y

What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
World War 2?

The allies spent 2 billion dollars on the Manhattan project to develop
the atomic bomb. This was a huge amount of money for the time.

The allies spent over 1 billion dollars to develop the proximity fuze to
enable shells launched from a naval/artillery tube to explode within the
proximity of the intended target.

This target could be an airplane or be a ground target. Imagine shooting
a shotgun into the air and when it gets close to an airplane it fires
multiple projectiles in all directions.

The physics of this theory is unimaginable especially in 1943.

You must combine Radar ,a fire control computer and a VT fuze.

All of this before transistors or solid state electronics. The
collaboration of the top scientists from the British Telecommunication
Research Establishment and multiple US scientific research groups
including John's Hopkins University applied physics lab and Western
electric.

The unbelievable process of developing all of the components of this
proximity fuze was completed. The remaining hurdle was allowing this
fragile fuze and bomb to be launched from a artillery/naval gun and be
able to survive 20,000 Gs and 30,000 rpm.

Eventually they developed a wax and oil suspender which allowed this
delicate mechanism to survive the explosive expulsion from a gun.

This one improvement created a 50 fold increase in success in
destruction of attacking aircraft for the allied navy's.

The VT fused shells in 5″ Naval anti-aircraft shells were initially sent
to the US Navy in the Pacific.

Airburst VT shells were introduced in Europe first against the V1
rockets attacking England , then during the battle of the bulge as
airburst antipersonnel artillery.

The USN tested the new AA shells against drones over the chesapeake bay
and the were able to destroy 1 in 4 shots. They shut down testing and
went immediately to production.

The Germans were only successful in 1 in 2500 antiarcraft shots.

143.5K views1.4K upvotes14 shares151 comments
18.4K viewsView 161 upvotes
8 comments from
Steve Coleman
and more

Steve Coleman
· December 25
John's Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory developed the VT Fuse.

I spent 20 years walking past a display case every day holding one of
the early prototypes. It never failed to amaze me that they could fit
all that in that small fuse and have it survive the massive G forces of
being shot out of an AA gun.

Paul Wahler
· December 19
I recently read a fascinating book about the development of the
proximity fuse. The title of the book is “12 Seconds of Silence” - a
reference to the time from when the V-1 “buzz” motor shut off and when
the unguided missle hit the ground. A terrifying 12 seconds to
contemplate if you were going to die. I highly recommend this book.

Neal Sollan
· December 20
Have heard the author talk. For those who may wonder about the title …
It comes from what the author considers the greatest achievement (event)
in the WW2 history of the proximity fuze. The British moved by PF
equipped AAA to in effect from a defensive line across the normal routes
used by V-1s and took out the vast majority of them long before they
got to densely populated areas. The victory however was short lived and
had a notable example of poor timing.

In an a.m. BBC broadcast there was an announcement that the V-1 threat
to Britain had effectively ceased. In the p.m. the first V-2 landed
(somewhere in Greater London as I remember). AAA and hence the PF was
useless against this type of missile

Paul Wahler
· December 21
I love these ‘little’ pieces of WWII history which have only been
explored fully after the secrecy acts of various countries have passed.
I was even more surprised about the proximity fuse use in artillery shells.

I got this book from the niece of Merle Tuve, the person Section T was
named for. I can see her family resemblance in the photo of Tuve.

Edward Adamchek
· January 26
Maryellen: Check out the U.S. Naval Institute’s video on Willis Lee. If
you haven’t seen it, you must - it’s about 30 minutes (more or less) and
describes some of his stunts as well as the fact that he forced the
BuOrd to release the 5” proximity shell to be shipped to the PTO when it
was 1:5 effect…
(more)
Profile photo for Geren Nichols
Geren Nichols
· December 27
Vacuum tubes!!! Can you even shoot your current iPhone out a 5″ gun with
2,600′ fps muzzle velocity and expect it to work?

The VT amazingly tough (only had to work once for a few seconds).

Profile photo for Ted Kennedy
Ted Kennedy
· December 25
I love the story of R V Jones, the British electronic warfare expert. On
being sent to the US with radar secrets and I think the PF details he
was accompanied by an armed officer. R V J protested that he didn’t need
a body guard only to be told the guy wasn’t there to protect him but to
shoot and kill him if R V J was in danger of capture.

Graham Figg
· December 31
The “Oslo Letter” was authenticated by the inclusion of a prototype
German proximity fuse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Report

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Wed, 2 Feb 2022 18:12 UTC

"a425couple" wrote in message news:BdyKJ.37$f2a5.2@fx48.iad...

Maryellen Reilly
Pharmacist1y

What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
World War 2?

--------------------------

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-107.php
"Mount #10 firing Mark 32 fuzzed projectiles was the first to fire and the
leading plane received a direct hit from what was believed to be the first
projectile fired. It disintegrated in the air, and the Rangefinder of Sky 4
reported that at one instant he was looking at an airplane and the next
instant all he could see was a propeller and radial engine flying through
the air with no plane attached to it."

The US had excellent radar-guided AA guns, the 90MM on land and the 5"-38 at
sea. It's difficult to determine exactly how good they were for lack of
enemy air opposition. Especially in Europe, US air superiority gave the
enemy little change to attack ground targets. I knew a vet who was the
computer operator on the 90mm until he was transferred to infantry, because
they had nothing to shoot at.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/90_mm_Gun_M1/M2/M3
"In 1944 the system was dramatically upgraded with the addition of the
SCR-584 microwave radar, which was accurate to about 0.06 degrees (1 mil)
and provided automatic tracking as well. With the SCR-584, direction and
range information was sent directly to the Bell Labs M3 Gun Data Computer,
and M9 Director, which could direct and lay the guns automatically. All the
crews had to do was load the guns. With the SCR-584 the 90 mm became
arguably the best anti-aircraft weapon of the war."

The computer set the time fuse as the semiautomatic loader was chambering
the round, with compensation for the firing delay and shell's flight time to
the predicted target position figured in. The crew merely passed shells to
the loading mechanism. The computer was electromechanical and the operator
tweaked knobs to keep meter pointers centered.

(A pilot's) memoir describe straying over a US AA position and then having
to maneuver wildly to avoid the shells. It was the most accurate AA he'd
ever seen.

The US had similar fully automatic computers aiming guns on ships down to
destroyer size, and torpedos. All other nations' ships had to steer a
straight course while firing, ours could score hits while dodging enemy
fire. That's how our destroyers effectively fought battleships and heavy
cruisers in the battle off Samar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_gun_fire-control_system
"In that action (Samar), American destroyers pitted against the world's
largest armored battleships and cruisers dodged shells for long enough to
close to within torpedo firing range, while lobbing hundreds of accurate
automatically aimed 5-inch (127 mm) rounds on target. Cruisers did not land
hits on splash-chasing escort carriers until after an hour of pursuit had
reduced the range to 5 miles (8.0 km).
jsw

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: Jim Wilkins - Wed, 2 Feb 2022 22:14 UTC

"a425couple" wrote in message news:BdyKJ.37$f2a5.2@fx48.iad...

Maryellen Reilly
Pharmacist1y

What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
World War 2?

-------------------------------

One of the worst antiaircraft guns was the main battery of Japanese
battleships:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: a425couple - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 03:03 UTC

On 2/2/2022 2:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "a425couple"  wrote in message news:BdyKJ.37$f2a5.2@fx48.iad...
>
> Maryellen Reilly
> Pharmacist1y
>
> What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
> Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
> World War 2?
>
> -------------------------------
>
> One of the worst antiaircraft guns was the main battery of Japanese
> battleships:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)
>

One of the worst for AA against the planes that
normally tore up the IJN fleet,
- OK, sounds true enough. The USN planes were
quite evasive and unpredictable for 14", 15", 16"
or 18" guns to follow.

But for ground attack, seems they did OK
"The Sanshiki anti-aircraft shells were used for shore bombardment
during the Battle for Henderson Field. On 13 October 1942,
----- Over the next 83 minutes, they fired 973 14 in (360 mm) shells
into the Lunga perimeter, most of them falling in and around the 2,200
m² area of the airfield. The bombardment heavily damaged the airfield's
two runways, burned almost all of the available aviation fuel, destroyed
48 of the CAF's ("Cactus Air Force") 90 aircraft, and killed 41 men,
including six CAF aircrew."

However, it still seems to me, that that idea would have
had a fair chance of working from the Tirpitz,
the Lancasters coming in to drop the huge Tall Boy
bombs were flying straight at the Tirpitz, and going
straight and level and high. Seems that the shotgun / bee hive
rounds would have been pretty ideal for that.

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:39 UTC

"a425couple" wrote in message news:5CHKJ.908$H_t7.35@fx40.iad...

On 2/2/2022 2:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "a425couple" wrote in message news:BdyKJ.37$f2a5.2@fx48.iad...
>
> Maryellen Reilly
> Pharmacist1y
>
> What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
> Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
> World War 2?
>
> -------------------------------
>
> One of the worst antiaircraft guns was the main battery of Japanese
> battleships:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)
>

One of the worst for AA against the planes that
normally tore up the IJN fleet,
- OK, sounds true enough. The USN planes were
quite evasive and unpredictable for 14", 15", 16"
or 18" guns to follow.

But for ground attack, seems they did OK
"The Sanshiki anti-aircraft shells were used for shore bombardment
during the Battle for Henderson Field. On 13 October 1942,
----- Over the next 83 minutes, they fired 973 14 in (360 mm) shells
into the Lunga perimeter, most of them falling in and around the 2,200
m² area of the airfield. The bombardment heavily damaged the airfield's
two runways, burned almost all of the available aviation fuel, destroyed
48 of the CAF's ("Cactus Air Force") 90 aircraft, and killed 41 men,
including six CAF aircrew."

However, it still seems to me, that that idea would have
had a fair chance of working from the Tirpitz,
the Lancasters coming in to drop the huge Tall Boy
bombs were flying straight at the Tirpitz, and going
straight and level and high. Seems that the shotgun / bee hive
rounds would have been pretty ideal for that.

------------------------

Hiei was sunk and only Kirishima returned for the second bombardment,
however she unexpectedly encountered US battleships Washington and South
Dakota first, with her shell hoists filled for shore bombardment instead of
a naval battle. In the resulting battle South Dakota suffered an electrical
failure and along with US destroyers absorbed all the damage, while
Washington, concealed behind the glare of burning ships, pounded Kirishima
to death.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/kirishimaDamageAnalysis.php
20 hits from 75 main gun rounds is incredible, the usual average is around
3%. Bismarck scored zero at a not much greater range.
Free Surface Effect is water shifting to the low side like loose cargo. GM
is stability against capsizing.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/South_Dakota_Damage_Analysis.php
Lundgren claims that hit 13 was a san shiki.
jsw

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: Dean Markley - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 19:36 UTC

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 8:40:26 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "a425couple" wrote in message news:5CHKJ.908$H_t...@fx40.iad...
> On 2/2/2022 2:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> > "a425couple" wrote in message news:BdyKJ.37$f2a...@fx48.iad...
> >
> > Maryellen Reilly
> > Pharmacist1y
> >
> > What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
> > Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
> > World War 2?
> >
> > -------------------------------
> >
> > One of the worst antiaircraft guns was the main battery of Japanese
> > battleships:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)
> >
>
> One of the worst for AA against the planes that
> normally tore up the IJN fleet,
> - OK, sounds true enough. The USN planes were
> quite evasive and unpredictable for 14", 15", 16"
> or 18" guns to follow.
>
> But for ground attack, seems they did OK
> "The Sanshiki anti-aircraft shells were used for shore bombardment
> during the Battle for Henderson Field. On 13 October 1942,
> ----- Over the next 83 minutes, they fired 973 14 in (360 mm) shells
> into the Lunga perimeter, most of them falling in and around the 2,200
> m² area of the airfield. The bombardment heavily damaged the airfield's
> two runways, burned almost all of the available aviation fuel, destroyed
> 48 of the CAF's ("Cactus Air Force") 90 aircraft, and killed 41 men,
> including six CAF aircrew."
>
> However, it still seems to me, that that idea would have
> had a fair chance of working from the Tirpitz,
> the Lancasters coming in to drop the huge Tall Boy
> bombs were flying straight at the Tirpitz, and going
> straight and level and high. Seems that the shotgun / bee hive
> rounds would have been pretty ideal for that.
> ------------------------
>
> Hiei was sunk and only Kirishima returned for the second bombardment,
> however she unexpectedly encountered US battleships Washington and South
> Dakota first, with her shell hoists filled for shore bombardment instead of
> a naval battle. In the resulting battle South Dakota suffered an electrical
> failure and along with US destroyers absorbed all the damage, while
> Washington, concealed behind the glare of burning ships, pounded Kirishima
> to death.
>
> http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/kirishimaDamageAnalysis.php
> 20 hits from 75 main gun rounds is incredible, the usual average is around
> 3%. Bismarck scored zero at a not much greater range.
> Free Surface Effect is water shifting to the low side like loose cargo. GM
> is stability against capsizing.
>
> http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/South_Dakota_Damage_Analysis.php
> Lundgren claims that hit 13 was a san shiki.
> jsw
Hiei and Kirishima did not bombard Henderson. Instead it was their sisters, Kongo and Haruna who laid down the devastating bombardment the night before.

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Thu, 3 Feb 2022 23:01 UTC

"Dean Markley" wrote in message
news:f615c8ca-7269-462b-ac76-84cc5f32e077n@googlegroups.com...

Hiei and Kirishima did not bombard Henderson. Instead it was their sisters,
Kongo and Haruna who laid down the devastating bombardment the night before.

-----------------------

I knew I should have looked up Hiei before posting. The naval actions of
that period were very confusing, for example Kongo and Haruna's successful
bombardment was the month before. American naval forces suffered greatly to
halt Hiei and Kirishima's first mission to bombard the field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal#Other_actions,_13%E2%80%9314_November

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: Keith Willshaw - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 00:01 UTC

On 02/02/2022 16:22, a425couple wrote:
> Maryellen Reilly Pharmacist1y
>
> What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2? Originally Answered:
> What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in World War 2?
>
> The allies spent 2 billion dollars on the Manhattan project to
> develop the atomic bomb. This was a huge amount of money for the
> time.
>
> The allies spent over 1 billion dollars to develop the proximity fuze
> to enable shells launched from a naval/artillery tube to explode
> within the proximity of the intended target.
>
> This target could be an airplane or be a ground target. Imagine
> shooting a shotgun into the air and when it gets close to an airplane
> it fires multiple projectiles in all directions.
>
> The physics of this theory is unimaginable especially in 1943.
>
> You must combine Radar ,a fire control computer and a VT fuze.
>
> All of this before transistors or solid state electronics. The
> collaboration of the top scientists from the British
> Telecommunication Research Establishment and multiple US scientific
> research groups including John's Hopkins University applied physics
> lab and Western electric.
>
> The unbelievable process of developing all of the components of this
> proximity fuze was completed. The remaining hurdle was allowing this
> fragile fuze and bomb to be launched from a artillery/naval gun and
> be able to survive 20,000 Gs and 30,000 rpm.
>
> Eventually they developed a wax and oil suspender which allowed this
> delicate mechanism to survive the explosive expulsion from a gun.
>
> This one improvement created a 50 fold increase in success in
> destruction of attacking aircraft for the allied navy's.
>
> The VT fused shells in 5″ Naval anti-aircraft shells were initially
> sent to the US Navy in the Pacific.
>
> Airburst VT shells were introduced in Europe first against the V1
> rockets attacking England , then during the battle of the bulge as
> airburst antipersonnel artillery.
>
> The USN tested the new AA shells against drones over the chesapeake
> bay and the were able to destroy 1 in 4 shots. They shut down testing
> and went immediately to production.
>
> The Germans were only successful in 1 in 2500 antiarcraft shots.
>
> 143.5K views1.4K upvotes14 shares151 comments 18.4K viewsView 161
> upvotes 8 comments from Steve Coleman and more
>
> Steve Coleman · December 25 John's Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory
> developed the VT Fuse.
>
> I spent 20 years walking past a display case every day holding one of
> the early prototypes. It never failed to amaze me that they could
> fit all that in that small fuse and have it survive the massive G
> forces of being shot out of an AA gun.
>
> Paul Wahler · December 19 I recently read a fascinating book about
> the development of the proximity fuse. The title of the book is “12
> Seconds of Silence” - a reference to the time from when the V-1
> “buzz” motor shut off and when the unguided missle hit the ground. A
> terrifying 12 seconds to contemplate if you were going to die. I
> highly recommend this book.
>
> Neal Sollan · December 20 Have heard the author talk. For those who
> may wonder about the title … It comes from what the author considers
> the greatest achievement (event) in the WW2 history of the proximity
> fuze. The British moved by PF equipped AAA to in effect from a
> defensive line across the normal routes used by V-1s and took out
> the vast majority of them long before they got to densely populated
> areas. The victory however was short lived and had a notable example
> of poor timing.
>
> In an a.m. BBC broadcast there was an announcement that the V-1
> threat to Britain had effectively ceased. In the p.m. the first V-2
> landed (somewhere in Greater London as I remember). AAA and hence the
> PF was useless against this type of missile
>
> Paul Wahler · December 21 I love these ‘little’ pieces of WWII
> history which have only been explored fully after the secrecy acts of
> various countries have passed. I was even more surprised about the
> proximity fuse use in artillery shells.
>
> I got this book from the niece of Merle Tuve, the person Section T
> was named for. I can see her family resemblance in the photo of
> Tuve.
>
> Edward Adamchek · January 26 Maryellen: Check out the U.S. Naval
> Institute’s video on Willis Lee. If you haven’t seen it, you must -
> it’s about 30 minutes (more or less) and describes some of his stunts
> as well as the fact that he forced the BuOrd to release the 5”
> proximity shell to be shipped to the PTO when it was 1:5 effect…
> (more) Profile photo for Geren Nichols Geren Nichols · December 27
> Vacuum tubes!!! Can you even shoot your current iPhone out a 5″ gun
> with 2,600′ fps muzzle velocity and expect it to work?
>
> The VT amazingly tough (only had to work once for a few seconds).
>
> Profile photo for Ted Kennedy Ted Kennedy · December 25 I love the
> story of R V Jones, the British electronic warfare expert. On being
> sent to the US with radar secrets and I think the PF details he was
> accompanied by an armed officer. R V J protested that he didn’t need
> a body guard only to be told the guy wasn’t there to protect him but
> to shoot and kill him if R V J was in danger of capture.
>
> Graham Figg · December 31 The “Oslo Letter” was authenticated by the
> inclusion of a prototype German proximity fuse.
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Report
>
>

Thw British 3.7" (94 mm) AA gun was just as effective as the US 90 and
with the proximity fuse which arrived in just time for use against the
V1 was very useful. My mum , who is still with us at the age of 97
served on an AA gun crew at RAF West Kirby in 1944/45 and was rather
disappointed they never got to fire a shot in anger. As with the German
88 they got pressed into the AT role in North Africa but by 1944 the 17
pounder proved to be better in the AT role as it had a lower profile ,
fired APDS shells and was lighter with a low profile. It could kill a
Tiger II at 2000 yards.

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: a425couple - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 00:55 UTC

On 2/2/2022 7:03 PM, a425couple wrote:
> On 2/2/2022 2:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "a425couple"  wrote in message news:BdyKJ.37$f2a5.2@fx48.iad...
>>
>> Maryellen Reilly
>> Pharmacist1y
>>
>> What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
>> Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
>> World War 2?
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> One of the worst antiaircraft guns was the main battery of Japanese
>> battleships:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)
>>
>
> One of the worst for AA against the planes that
> normally tore up the IJN fleet,
>  - OK, sounds true enough.  The USN planes were
> quite evasive and unpredictable for 14", 15", 16"
> or 18" guns to follow.
>
> But for ground attack, seems they did OK
>   "The Sanshiki anti-aircraft shells were used for shore bombardment
> during the Battle for Henderson Field. On 13 October 1942,
> ----- Over the next 83 minutes, they fired 973 14 in (360 mm) shells
> into the Lunga perimeter, most of them falling in and around the 2,200
> m² area of the airfield. The bombardment heavily damaged the airfield's
> two runways, burned almost all of the available aviation fuel, destroyed
> 48 of the CAF's ("Cactus Air Force") 90 aircraft, and killed 41 men,
> including six CAF aircrew."
>
> However, it still seems to me, that that idea would have
> had a fair chance of working from the Tirpitz,
> the Lancasters coming in to drop the huge Tall Boy
> bombs were flying straight at the Tirpitz, and going
> straight and level and high.  Seems that the shotgun / bee hive
> rounds would have been pretty ideal for that.
>
or see:

bout 17,000,000 search results

People also ask
How high could the Lancasters see the Tirpitz?

At zero hour on 12th November 1944, the Lancasters set course on the
long straight run-in to the target – needed by the bomb sights to ensure
accurate bombing – followed by a ‘gaggle’ of Lancasters at 12,000 to
16,000 feet. The Lancaster crews could clearly see the Tirpitz from 20
miles in the clear and cloudless conditions.

www.fonthill.media › en-us › productsSinking the Beast: The RAF 1944
Lancaster Raids Against Tirpitz
During the autumn of 1944, three RAF raids – using Avro Lancaster heavy
bombers – finally sank the German battleship Tirpitz. Many previous
attempts, including the use of midget submarines and raids by
carrier-based aircraft, had damaged Tirpitz at her Norwegian hideout.
Throughout the war, Tirpitz had become a much fe

www.memorialflightclub.com › blog › sinking-tirpitzSinking the Tirpitz –
12th November 1944 | RAF Memorial ...
Right: The 2,200 miles route from Lossiemouth to Tromso Fjord and back
as flown by the ‘Operation Catechism’ Lancasters on 12th November 1944.
The famous, huge, beautiful and potentially deadly German battleship
Tirpitz had been a priority target for the Allies since 1940.

www.bombercommandmuseum.ca › bomber-commandSinking of the Battleship
Tirpitz – Bomber Command Museum of ...
The 12,000 pound “Tall Boy” bomb used to sink the Tirpitz On September
11, 1944, 38 Lancasters of 9 and 617 Squadrons set out to fly to an
airfield in Northern Russia which was to be used as a base for an attack
on the battleship which was at anchor in Kaa Fjord in Northern Norway.

www.amazon.com › Sinking-Beast-Lancaster-AgainstSinking the Beast: The
RAF 1944 Lancaster Raids Against ...
During the autumn of 1944, three RAF raids – using Avro Lancaster heavy
bombers – finally sank the German battleship Tirpitz. Many previous
attempts, including the use of midget submarines and raids by
carrier-based aircraft, had damaged Tirpitz at her Norwegian hideout.
4.8/5 (12)
Format: Hardcover
Author: Jan Forsgren

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 12:02 UTC

"a425couple" wrote in message news:5CHKJ.908$H_t7.35@fx40.iad...

However, it still seems to me, that that idea would have
had a fair chance of working from the Tirpitz,
the Lancasters coming in to drop the huge Tall Boy
bombs were flying straight at the Tirpitz, and going
straight and level and high. Seems that the shotgun / bee hive
rounds would have been pretty ideal for that.

-------------------------

Maximum elevation of the Tirpitz' main battery was 30 degrees.

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: Jim Wilkins - Fri, 4 Feb 2022 12:18 UTC

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:sthqcd$ngv$1@dont-email.me...

Thw British 3.7" (94 mm) AA gun was just as effective as the US 90 and
with the proximity fuse which arrived in just time for use against the
V1 was very useful. My mum , who is still with us at the age of 97
served on an AA gun crew at RAF West Kirby in 1944/45 and was rather
disappointed they never got to fire a shot in anger. As with the German
88 they got pressed into the AT role in North Africa but by 1944 the 17
pounder proved to be better in the AT role as it had a lower profile ,
fired APDS shells and was lighter with a low profile. It could kill a
Tiger II at 2000 yards.

------------------------

The US 90mm AA gun's advantage was its tracker.

https://dbpedia.org/page/GL_Mk._III_radar
"Several improved versions of the Mk. III(B) were experimented with, but
none were widely produced due to the 1944 introduction of the SCR-584 from
the US, which provided both scanning and tracking in a single semi-trailer
unit. Mk. III units found themselves relegated to secondary roles, as
diverse as artillery spotting, coastal surveillance and weather balloon
observation."

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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 by: Jim Wilkins - Sat, 5 Feb 2022 12:16 UTC

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:sthqcd$ngv$1@dont-email.me...

Thw British 3.7" (94 mm) AA gun was just as effective as the US 90 and
with the proximity fuse which arrived in just time for use against the
V1 was very useful. My mum , who is still with us at the age of 97
served on an AA gun crew at RAF West Kirby in 1944/45 and was rather
disappointed they never got to fire a shot in anger. As with the German
88 they got pressed into the AT role in North Africa but by 1944 the 17
pounder proved to be better in the AT role as it had a lower profile ,
fired APDS shells and was lighter with a low profile. It could kill a
Tiger II at 2000 yards.

------------------

We were glad to get the 17 Pounder which was better than anything we had
that could fit in a closed turret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Firefly

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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From: keithwil...@gmail.com (Keith Willshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,alt.war.world-war-two
Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 20:52:38 +0000
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 by: Keith Willshaw - Sat, 5 Feb 2022 20:52 UTC

On 04/02/2022 12:02, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "a425couple"  wrote in message news:5CHKJ.908$H_t7.35@fx40.iad...
> However, it still seems to me, that that idea would have
> had a fair chance of working from the Tirpitz,
> the Lancasters coming in to drop the huge Tall Boy
> bombs were flying straight at the Tirpitz, and going
> straight and level and high.  Seems that the shotgun / bee hive
> rounds would have been pretty ideal for that.
>
> -------------------------
>
> Maximum elevation of the Tirpitz' main battery was 30 degrees.

The real failure on the German side was that the Luftwaffe fighter unit
supposed to protect them failed to turn up for the party, in large part
due to poor communications between then and the Kriegsmarine

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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From: keithwil...@gmail.com (Keith Willshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,alt.war.world-war-two
Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 00:25:19 +0000
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 by: Keith Willshaw - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 00:25 UTC

On 04/02/2022 12:18, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Keith Willshaw"  wrote in message news:sthqcd$ngv$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Thw British 3.7" (94 mm) AA gun was just as effective as the US 90 and
> with the proximity fuse which arrived in just time for use against the
> V1 was very useful. My mum , who is still with us at the age of 97
> served on an AA gun crew at RAF West Kirby in 1944/45 and was rather
> disappointed they never got to fire a shot in anger. As with the German
> 88 they got pressed into the AT role in North Africa but by 1944 the 17
> pounder proved to be better in the AT role as it had a lower profile ,
> fired APDS shells and was lighter with a low profile. It could kill a
> Tiger II at 2000 yards.
>
> ------------------------
>
> The US 90mm AA gun's advantage was its tracker.
>
> https://dbpedia.org/page/GL_Mk._III_radar
> "Several improved versions of the Mk. III(B) were experimented with, but
> none were widely produced due to the 1944 introduction of the SCR-584
> from the US, which provided both scanning and tracking in a single
> semi-trailer unit. Mk. III units found themselves relegated to secondary
> roles, as diverse as artillery spotting, coastal surveillance and
> weather balloon observation."
>

Indeed and the first examples arrived in the UK in early 1944

Let me quote a fuller version of that article. note that the core
technical advance was the cavity magnetron developed in the UK and
produced in the USA. Unlike the Axis powers UK and US sharing of
development went both ways.

<Start>

Radar, Gun Laying, Mark III, or GL Mk. III for short, was a radar system
used by the British Army to directly guide, or lay, anti-aircraft
artillery (AA). The GL Mk. III was not a single radar, but a family of
related designs that saw constant improvement during and after World War
II. These were renamed shortly after their introduction in late 1942,
becoming the Radar, AA, No. 3, and often paired with an early warning
radar, the AA No. 4, which was also produced in several models. The Mk.
III began development shortly after the introduction of the cavity
magnetron in early 1940. The magnetron allowed radar systems to operate
at microwave frequencies, which greatly reduced the size of their
antennas and made them much more mobile and accurate. Having originally
started work on the magnetron as part of the AI Mk. VIII air-to-air
radar, the team was told to drop everything and develop a radar for AA
use as quickly as possible. This turned into a fiasco; by the end of the
year very little progress had been made and the team returned to working
on airborne radars.

The magnetron has also been demonstrated to the Canadians and US as part
of the Tizard Mission in the fall of 1940. Immediately following the
visit, the National Research Council of Canada began development of a GL
radar based on the UK design. The first examples of these GL Mk. III(C)
(for Canadian) arrived in the UK in November 1942. British units of
slightly more advanced design, GL Mk. III(B) (for British) arrived in
December. 667 of the Canadian models were produced, with about 250 of
these seeing service in the UK while most of the others were sent to the
continent or remained in Canada. 876 of the British models were produced
and saw more widespread service.

Fifty Mk. IIIs were supplied to the Soviet Union. Several improved
versions of the Mk. III(B) were experimented with, but none were widely
produced due to the 1944 introduction of the SCR-584 from the US

<End>

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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From: keithwil...@gmail.com (Keith Willshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,alt.war.world-war-two
Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 00:34:32 +0000
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 by: Keith Willshaw - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 00:34 UTC

On 06/02/2022 00:25, Keith Willshaw wrote:
> On 04/02/2022 12:18, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Keith Willshaw"  wrote in message news:sthqcd$ngv$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> Thw British 3.7" (94 mm) AA gun was just as effective as the US 90 and
>> with the proximity fuse which arrived in just time for use against the
>> V1 was very useful. My mum , who is still with us at the age of 97
>> served on an AA gun crew at RAF West Kirby in 1944/45 and was rather
>> disappointed they never got to fire a shot in anger. As with the German
>> 88 they got pressed into the AT role in North Africa but by 1944 the 17
>> pounder proved to be better in the AT role as it had a lower profile ,
>> fired APDS shells and was lighter with a low profile. It could kill a
>> Tiger II at 2000 yards.
>>
>> ------------------------
>>
>> The US 90mm AA gun's advantage was its tracker.
>>
>> https://dbpedia.org/page/GL_Mk._III_radar
>> "Several improved versions of the Mk. III(B) were experimented with,
>> but none were widely produced due to the 1944 introduction of the
>> SCR-584 from the US, which provided both scanning and tracking in a
>> single semi-trailer unit. Mk. III units found themselves relegated to
>> secondary roles, as diverse as artillery spotting, coastal
>> surveillance and weather balloon observation."
>>
>
> Indeed and the first examples arrived in the UK in early 1944
>
> Let me quote a fuller version of that article. note that the core
> technical advance was the cavity magnetron developed in the UK and
> produced in the USA. Unlike the Axis powers UK and US sharing of
> development went both ways.
>
> <Start>
>
> Radar, Gun Laying, Mark III, or GL Mk. III for short, was a radar system
> used by the British Army to directly guide, or lay, anti-aircraft
> artillery (AA). The GL Mk. III was not a single radar, but a family of
> related designs that saw constant improvement during and after World War
> II. These were renamed shortly after their introduction in late 1942,
> becoming the Radar, AA, No. 3, and often paired with an early warning
> radar, the AA No. 4, which was also produced in several models. The Mk.
> III began development shortly after the introduction of the cavity
> magnetron in early 1940. The magnetron allowed radar systems to operate
> at microwave frequencies, which greatly reduced the size of their
> antennas and made them much more mobile and accurate. Having originally
> started work on the magnetron as part of the AI Mk. VIII air-to-air
> radar, the team was told to drop everything and develop a radar for AA
> use as quickly as possible. This turned into a fiasco; by the end of the
> year very little progress had been made and the team returned to working
> on airborne radars.
>
> The magnetron has also been demonstrated to the Canadians and US as part
> of the Tizard Mission in the fall of 1940. Immediately following the
> visit, the National Research Council of Canada began development of a GL
> radar based on the UK design. The first examples of these GL Mk. III(C)
> (for Canadian) arrived in the UK in November 1942. British units of
> slightly more advanced design, GL Mk. III(B) (for British) arrived in
> December. 667 of the Canadian models were produced, with about 250 of
> these seeing service in the UK while most of the others were sent to the
> continent or remained in Canada. 876 of the British models were produced
> and saw more widespread service.
>
> Fifty Mk. IIIs were supplied to the Soviet Union. Several improved
> versions of the Mk. III(B) were experimented with, but none were widely
> produced due to the 1944 introduction of the SCR-584 from the US
>
> <End>

For those interested mor details of British AAA radars and gun laying
systems can be found here.
http://www.anti-aircraft.co.uk/radarNo3Mk2.html

<quote>
Purpose
10cm microwave (3GHz) mobile equipment for accurate fire control (FC) of
H.A.A. artillery and was modified for use in C.A. (coastal artillery) or
Field roles. Transmits continuous range, bearing and elevation of
targets to the predictor.

History
An experimental set, Model A, had been completed and tested by British
Thompson Houston (BTH) at Rugby in April 1941. Further trials continued
in May and June at A.D.R.D.E. Christchurch. An improved and modified
set, Model B, was introduced in July and an order was placed for 28
hand-built pre-production models, and a full production order for 900
sets was also placed in July. Five hand-built prototypes were built
between December 1941 and April 1942, and only 8 in total by the end of
1942. Production increased through 1943 with 548 sets manufactured
during 1944. Production ceased in April 1945 with a total of 876 sets
delivered, 50 being shipped to the USSR. Unfortunately due to production
and design difficulties, by the time the No3 Mk2 reached full production
it was already obsolete. The introduction in 1944 of the US built SCR584
with auto-tracking made this highly sought after radar set the number one.
<end quote>

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,alt.war.world-war-two
Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 14:56 UTC

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:stn4hf$t8s$1@dont-email.me...

The magnetron has also been demonstrated to the Canadians and US as part
of the Tizard Mission in the fall of 1940.

----------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission
If necessary I can quote from hard copies of R. V. Jones' "The Wizard War"
and William Stephenson's "A Man Called Intrepid", which give further
details.

The trail of who invented what often leads back to not Britain or the US,
but France or other nations where the inventor didn't develop it:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6735528?reload=true
"On September 1939, the cavity magnetron was thus already a confirmed
concept, well known in USSR, Germany, and Japan but not at Birmingham, where
Randall and Boot were totally unaware of it."

The conditions that permit or encourage scientific advancement is one of my
historical research interests, though I haven't found a complete answer.
Clever minds with private or government funding appear to be essential.
Britain's Industrial Revolution began in the mind and workshop of Henry
Maudslay and continued with his former apprentices, but slowed after they
died. Brunel was French.

Since ancient Greece knowledge has advanced in short bursts between
intervals of stagnation. I've participated, for example in ink jet printing,
IC testing and digital radio, but the triggers for the rise and fall aren't
very evident even from the inside. Some advances occurred in private
workshops including my own lab and machine shop. Electrical engineers
typically don't acquire the skills to build what they can imagine,
especially if it requires machining, so I found my niche as their instrument
maker.

History values the minds that created an idea but not the hands that built
it. Perhaps that is to be expected from those who write for a living.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Taylor_(mechanic)

Radar is an example of an idea that sprang up simultaneously in many nations
when the conditions became right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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From: wb8...@panix.com (David Lesher)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,alt.war.world-war-two
Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 06:10:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: David Lesher - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 06:10 UTC

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:stn4hf$t8s$1@dont-email.me...

>The magnetron has also been demonstrated to the Canadians and US as part
>of the Tizard Mission in the fall of 1940.

>----------------------

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission
>If necessary I can quote from hard copies of R. V. Jones' "The Wizard War"
>and William Stephenson's "A Man Called Intrepid", which give further
>details.

>The conditions that permit or encourage scientific advancement is one of my
>historical research interests, though I haven't found a complete answer.
>Clever minds with private or government funding appear to be essential.

Read Tuxedo Park, by Jennet Conant. It was an AMAZING story
about the right man, in the right place, at the right time...

--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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From: p_stick...@verizon.net (Peter Stickney)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,alt.war.world-war-two
Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
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 by: Peter Stickney - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 07:55 UTC

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 19:03:28 -0800, a425couple wrote:

> On 2/2/2022 2:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "a425couple"  wrote in message news:BdyKJ.37$f2a5.2@fx48.iad...
>>
>> Maryellen Reilly Pharmacist1y
>>
>> What was the best anti-aircraft gun during WW2?
>> Originally Answered: What was the best Anti-Aircraft gun defense in
>> World War 2?
>>

Best AA Gun Defense in WW2: Land Based, High Altitude an SCR-584 auto-
tracking radar feeding an M9 Ballistic Computer controlling 4 90mm or
120mm Anti-Aircraft Guns by Remote Power Control (No human training/
pointing) firing proximity fuzed shells.
Medium Altitude, the SCR-584 feeding predictions to rpc Comtrolled 40mm
Bofers.

At Sea, a Mk 37 GFCS controlling a battery of Remote Power Controlled 5"/
38s, with an inner layer of Director Mk 51 controlled quad 40mm Bofers.

>> -------------------------------
>>
>> One of the worst antiaircraft guns was the main battery of Japanese
>> battleships:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)
>>
>>
> One of the worst for AA against the planes that normally tore up the IJN
> fleet,
> - OK, sounds true enough. The USN planes were
> quite evasive and unpredictable for 14", 15", 16"
> or 18" guns to follow.

After following up on reading "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully,
I'm rather doubtful that the Big Gin AA shells were actually intended to
hit attacking aircraft. One area where the IJN lagged behind the USN (ANd
even the Royal Navy) was the control of fighter aircraft defending the
fleet. Compatible Radios were rare, and even inter-ship communication
could be poor. Their control protocol in 1943 at Midway was for ships in
the outer ring of the fleet formation, Most likely to visually spot
incoming aircraft first, about 3-6 minutes out, to fire Main Battery
rounds out on the bearing of the incoming raid. The firing flashes and
shell splashes would give any alert Combat Air Patrol fighters the
direction the Bad Guys were coming from.
It's a small extension of this concept to use airburst main battery
rounds for the same purpose.
Japanese shipboard AA suffered from not having useful predictors, no
proximity fuzes, and manual control for the heavy AA, No medium AA to
speak of, and only the 25mm triple for anything that the heavy AA
couldn't touch. This left a wide range/altitude band of vulnerability,
which fit in very well with the U.S. Navy's weapons and attack profiles -
particularly when the altitude and range parameters of the Mk 13 torpedo
were better understood, and reliability in combat started approaching
90%.

> But for ground attack, seems they did OK
> "The Sanshiki anti-aircraft shells were used for shore bombardment
> during the Battle for Henderson Field. On 13 October 1942,
> ----- Over the next 83 minutes, they fired 973 14 in (360 mm) shells
> into the Lunga perimeter, most of them falling in and around the 2,200
> m² area of the airfield. The bombardment heavily damaged the airfield's
> two runways, burned almost all of the available aviation fuel, destroyed
> 48 of the CAF's ("Cactus Air Force") 90 aircraft, and killed 41 men,
> including six CAF aircrew."
>
> However, it still seems to me, that that idea would have had a fair
> chance of working from the Tirpitz,
> the Lancasters coming in to drop the huge Tall Boy bombs were flying
> straight at the Tirpitz, and going straight and level and high. Seems
> that the shotgun / bee hive rounds would have been pretty ideal for
> that.
Nope - they didn't have the train/elevation rates to make that work, no
effective fire control systems, and a low rate of fire. They relied on
the steep walls of the relatively narrow fjord, and shore based smoke
generators for defense much more.

--
Peter Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee

Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,alt.war.world-war-two
Subject: Re: A Quora on the Proximity Fuze
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 07:52:47 -0500
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:52 UTC

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:stn52o$vvn$1@dont-email.me...

For those interested mor details of British AAA radars and gun laying
systems can be found here.
http://www.anti-aircraft.co.uk/radarNo3Mk2.html

---------------------

This gives the why and how of the naval version.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-066.php
"This fatally flawed vision of anti-aircraft warfare led to the Royal Navy
having arguably the worst anti-aircraft defense of any of the major powers
at the start of the Second World War."

They weren't alone, the US didn't predict the future of aerial warfare very
well either, and optimized the P39 and P40 fighters for low level ground
support, which they did well in Russia and China. There simply wasn't enough
money to cover every possibility. Fortunately the US wasn't as directly
threatened and had enough time to improve. At least Britain and the US
prepared for heavy long range strategic bombing, unlike Germany and Japan.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/p-39-d-aircobra-vs-me-109.318/
"Luftwaffe Ace Helmut Lipfert [203 victories] apparently wrote 'the
Airacobra was the best Russian fighter at the time...a close match for our
Bf 109's'. - As LG states, they were a successful low-altitude fighter. -
However, the P-63 Kingcobra was more formidable with it's two-stage Allison,
equalling the Merlin Mustang, and Russian pilots reported it was a match for
the Fw-190's and more than a match for 109's."

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