I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
Bob,

It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?

Tony

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:07:20 PM UTC-7, Tony Smolder wrote:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> Bob,
>
> It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
>
> Tony

From my limited experience (but I suspect it is quite typical of many pilots from small clubs in the US), the bulk of the training is done on the venerable SGS 2-33. Many clubs don't have access to two-seater glass ships that they can then use to transition pilots from the 2-33 into more modern glass ships that are capable of XC flying. So the newly minted pilots fly the 2-33 around the pattern and eventually get bored of that and move on to find something else to spend their time and money on.

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 11:07:20 PM UTC-5, Tony Smolder wrote:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> Bob,
>
> It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
>
> Tony
Tony, you made an excellent point referencing what I call, "Ghost Ships", those that sit around and become hangar or trailer queens and just continue to deteriorate. Our club has taken the approach of one mans trash is our club's stepping stone and we continue to look for that stowed and forgotten treasure. I contacted individuals and made arrangements to get three gliders acquired for the purpose of rebuilding and adding to the fleet to be utilized by youth and developing glider pilots. We reached out and received a Phoebus that we rebuilt and it was featured in Soaring magazine as our youth project. The second ship that we received was a Std Libelle, that was restored and is currently in our hangar, it too is completely restored and finished in urethane, it is truly a beauty. Our next ship was the restoration of our 2-33, AKA, "Sky HAG", and we also have a LS3-A that is nearing completion. The ships were all donated except for the 2-33, I also purchased a damaged LS3-A and gave to the club to use as parts for the restoration project.
The benefit of our club is the tax donation to those individuals that donate such ships to our youth program. I have spoken several times about our youth program and we feel like it is second to none. Our main goal is to take these youth and advance their soaring achievements through a stepping stone of task which increases their skill and confidence level. Ava, one of our 14 year old youth solo pilot is ready for the Libelle and it certainly will happen soon. Just yesterday we would have solo'd another 14 year old kid named Thomas if he had completed his required paperwork, I would be willing to bet Thomas will solo next week if the weather cooperates.
Well, the future for us here at TCSC looks bright ! Old Bob, The Purist

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 4:36:31 PM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist

While I think your approach to bringing young people into the sport is admirable, for long term sustainability one needs to expand the flying population with those who have the bucks. No bucks, no Buck Rogers. I have never seen the one commercial operation with which I was familiar approach capacity utilization other than perhaps during the Seniors, without marketing your facility it will never reach its true capacity. A business cannot rely on word of mouth in most cases, one needs to identify the target audience and go after it. I will quickly identify your target audience here. 1. Youngsters willing to work for flying time or whose parents are going to pay the bill. 2. Licensed power pilots looking for another challenge and rating and 3., Power pilots who have lose their medical but wish to get back in the air. Many in the 2 and 3 category have the disposable income and inclination to fly gliders. I came into the glider world from category 2, lived locally for 30 years and never heard of the local glider port. Advertising in Soaring Magazine does not adequately expose your facility to the majority of potential students.

Perhaps if someone had a Masters In Marketing and the Advertising Industry from a University ranked 889th in the world they could step forward with their vast, acquired knowledge and save soaring in America. What is that old academic saying? Publish or Perish? It applies in many circumstances.

Walt Connelly

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 12:52:40 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:07:20 PM UTC-7, Tony Smolder wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Bob,
> >
> > It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
> >
> > Tony
> From my limited experience (but I suspect it is quite typical of many pilots from small clubs in the US), the bulk of the training is done on the venerable SGS 2-33. Many clubs don't have access to two-seater glass ships that they can then use to transition pilots from the 2-33 into more modern glass ships that are capable of XC flying. So the newly minted pilots fly the 2-33 around the pattern and eventually get bored of that and move on to find something else to spend their time and money on.

Having enough rungs on the ladder to allow pilots to progress is an important element in a club or commercial operation. Once proficient in a 2-33, let's assume that is the trainer used, the member needs another step. This is important for 2 reasons. First is that it provides the new pilot with another progress step and secondly it frees the trainer to be used for the next student. How many steps the organization can provide is the next challenge. In our club we train in 2-33's through solo. We have (3) 2-33's. Next they move to the 1-26. We have two, one of which is free to juniors. The next step is a 1-34. We require members to complete their PP certificate before they get the keys to the 1-34, not because it is hard, but to create an incentive to get the license done. A rare junior has been allowed to fly the 1-34 if the only barrier to the PP is age. After PP members also can check out and solo our ASK-21. The reasoning is the same as the 1-34. We do XC training in both the 2-33 and the '21. Obviously it is more dynamic and comfortable in the '21. Juniors, once having completed the PP have access to a Std Libelle, contest number JRs, at no cost. Several have used it to fly in their first contests. A couple of my other ships have been loaned to youths over the years when appropriate.
We are fortunate to have this depth. It took many years to grow to this position. Bob and his organization are doing it similarly, but at a quicker rate, almost entirely due to his generosity and that of a few supporters.
It is not easy, or cheap but it is doable.
FWIW
UH

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 9:37:29 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 12:52:40 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:07:20 PM UTC-7, Tony Smolder wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > > > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > > > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
> > >
> > > Tony
> > From my limited experience (but I suspect it is quite typical of many pilots from small clubs in the US), the bulk of the training is done on the venerable SGS 2-33. Many clubs don't have access to two-seater glass ships that they can then use to transition pilots from the 2-33 into more modern glass ships that are capable of XC flying. So the newly minted pilots fly the 2-33 around the pattern and eventually get bored of that and move on to find something else to spend their time and money on.
> Having enough rungs on the ladder to allow pilots to progress is an important element in a club or commercial operation. Once proficient in a 2-33, let's assume that is the trainer used, the member needs another step. This is important for 2 reasons. First is that it provides the new pilot with another progress step and secondly it frees the trainer to be used for the next student. How many steps the organization can provide is the next challenge. In our club we train in 2-33's through solo. We have (3) 2-33's. Next they move to the 1-26. We have two, one of which is free to juniors. The next step is a 1-34. We require members to complete their PP certificate before they get the keys to the 1-34, not because it is hard, but to create an incentive to get the license done. A rare junior has been allowed to fly the 1-34 if the only barrier to the PP is age. After PP members also can check out and solo our ASK-21. The reasoning is the same as the 1-34. We do XC training in both the 2-33 and the '21. Obviously it is more dynamic and comfortable in the '21. Juniors, once having completed the PP have access to a Std Libelle, contest number JRs, at no cost. Several have used it to fly in their first contests. A couple of my other ships have been loaned to youths over the years when appropriate.
> We are fortunate to have this depth. It took many years to grow to this position. Bob and his organization are doing it similarly, but at a quicker rate, almost entirely due to his generosity and that of a few supporters.
> It is not easy, or cheap but it is doable.
> FWIW
> UH
Thanks Hank, we have a great group of supporters, from instructors to ground crew and other volunteers that make what we do unique, just wish I had more tow pilots, the years are closing in on me. One of the benefits that our youth club members have is that there is NO cost involved in their training. We are not a babysitting venue, we expect our youth members to learn every phase of glider operation starting with running the line to fueling my Pawnee. One of the great things that we have done is to encourage these kids to solo on their 14th birthday, recently three of them achieved that goal within 60 days, and two of them were young girls, who in fact flew tow better than their counterparts. OBTP

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 6:13:19 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 9:37:29 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 12:52:40 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:07:20 PM UTC-7, Tony Smolder wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > > > > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > > > > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Bob,
> > > >
> > > > It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> > > From my limited experience (but I suspect it is quite typical of many pilots from small clubs in the US), the bulk of the training is done on the venerable SGS 2-33. Many clubs don't have access to two-seater glass ships that they can then use to transition pilots from the 2-33 into more modern glass ships that are capable of XC flying. So the newly minted pilots fly the 2-33 around the pattern and eventually get bored of that and move on to find something else to spend their time and money on.
> > Having enough rungs on the ladder to allow pilots to progress is an important element in a club or commercial operation. Once proficient in a 2-33, let's assume that is the trainer used, the member needs another step. This is important for 2 reasons. First is that it provides the new pilot with another progress step and secondly it frees the trainer to be used for the next student. How many steps the organization can provide is the next challenge. In our club we train in 2-33's through solo. We have (3) 2-33's. Next they move to the 1-26. We have two, one of which is free to juniors. The next step is a 1-34. We require members to complete their PP certificate before they get the keys to the 1-34, not because it is hard, but to create an incentive to get the license done. A rare junior has been allowed to fly the 1-34 if the only barrier to the PP is age. After PP members also can check out and solo our ASK-21. The reasoning is the same as the 1-34. We do XC training in both the 2-33 and the '21. Obviously it is more dynamic and comfortable in the '21. Juniors, once having completed the PP have access to a Std Libelle, contest number JRs, at no cost. Several have used it to fly in their first contests. A couple of my other ships have been loaned to youths over the years when appropriate.
> > We are fortunate to have this depth. It took many years to grow to this position. Bob and his organization are doing it similarly, but at a quicker rate, almost entirely due to his generosity and that of a few supporters.
> > It is not easy, or cheap but it is doable.
> > FWIW
> > UH
> Thanks Hank, we have a great group of supporters, from instructors to ground crew and other volunteers that make what we do unique, just wish I had more tow pilots, the years are closing in on me. One of the benefits that our youth club members have is that there is NO cost involved in their training. We are not a babysitting venue, we expect our youth members to learn every phase of glider operation starting with running the line to fueling my Pawnee. One of the great things that we have done is to encourage these kids to solo on their 14th birthday, recently three of them achieved that goal within 60 days, and two of them were young girls, who in fact flew tow better than their counterparts. OBTP

How does a poor struggling club, with just a 2-33, develop that "depth" of club gliders?

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 6:13:19 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 9:37:29 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 12:52:40 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:07:20 PM UTC-7, Tony Smolder wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > > > > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > > > > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Bob,
> > > >
> > > > It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> > > From my limited experience (but I suspect it is quite typical of many pilots from small clubs in the US), the bulk of the training is done on the venerable SGS 2-33. Many clubs don't have access to two-seater glass ships that they can then use to transition pilots from the 2-33 into more modern glass ships that are capable of XC flying. So the newly minted pilots fly the 2-33 around the pattern and eventually get bored of that and move on to find something else to spend their time and money on.
> > Having enough rungs on the ladder to allow pilots to progress is an important element in a club or commercial operation. Once proficient in a 2-33, let's assume that is the trainer used, the member needs another step. This is important for 2 reasons. First is that it provides the new pilot with another progress step and secondly it frees the trainer to be used for the next student. How many steps the organization can provide is the next challenge. In our club we train in 2-33's through solo. We have (3) 2-33's. Next they move to the 1-26. We have two, one of which is free to juniors. The next step is a 1-34. We require members to complete their PP certificate before they get the keys to the 1-34, not because it is hard, but to create an incentive to get the license done. A rare junior has been allowed to fly the 1-34 if the only barrier to the PP is age. After PP members also can check out and solo our ASK-21. The reasoning is the same as the 1-34. We do XC training in both the 2-33 and the '21. Obviously it is more dynamic and comfortable in the '21. Juniors, once having completed the PP have access to a Std Libelle, contest number JRs, at no cost. Several have used it to fly in their first contests. A couple of my other ships have been loaned to youths over the years when appropriate.
> > We are fortunate to have this depth. It took many years to grow to this position. Bob and his organization are doing it similarly, but at a quicker rate, almost entirely due to his generosity and that of a few supporters.
> > It is not easy, or cheap but it is doable.
> > FWIW
> > UH
> Thanks Hank, we have a great group of supporters, from instructors to ground crew and other volunteers that make what we do unique, just wish I had more tow pilots, the years are closing in on me. One of the benefits that our youth club members have is that there is NO cost involved in their training. We are not a babysitting venue, we expect our youth members to learn every phase of glider operation starting with running the line to fueling my Pawnee. One of the great things that we have done is to encourage these kids to solo on their 14th birthday, recently three of them achieved that goal within 60 days, and two of them were young girls, who in fact flew tow better than their counterparts. OBTP

How does a poor struggling club, with just a 2-33, develop that "depth" of club gliders? Without club gliders, its hard to attract new members. Without members, its hard to build the finances to afford a nicer glider. Catch-22.

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:08:19 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 6:13:19 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 9:37:29 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 12:52:40 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:07:20 PM UTC-7, Tony Smolder wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > > > > > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > > > > > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > Bob,
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony
> > > > From my limited experience (but I suspect it is quite typical of many pilots from small clubs in the US), the bulk of the training is done on the venerable SGS 2-33. Many clubs don't have access to two-seater glass ships that they can then use to transition pilots from the 2-33 into more modern glass ships that are capable of XC flying. So the newly minted pilots fly the 2-33 around the pattern and eventually get bored of that and move on to find something else to spend their time and money on.
> > > Having enough rungs on the ladder to allow pilots to progress is an important element in a club or commercial operation. Once proficient in a 2-33, let's assume that is the trainer used, the member needs another step. This is important for 2 reasons. First is that it provides the new pilot with another progress step and secondly it frees the trainer to be used for the next student. How many steps the organization can provide is the next challenge. In our club we train in 2-33's through solo. We have (3) 2-33's. Next they move to the 1-26. We have two, one of which is free to juniors. The next step is a 1-34. We require members to complete their PP certificate before they get the keys to the 1-34, not because it is hard, but to create an incentive to get the license done. A rare junior has been allowed to fly the 1-34 if the only barrier to the PP is age. After PP members also can check out and solo our ASK-21. The reasoning is the same as the 1-34. We do XC training in both the 2-33 and the '21. Obviously it is more dynamic and comfortable in the '21. Juniors, once having completed the PP have access to a Std Libelle, contest number JRs, at no cost. Several have used it to fly in their first contests. A couple of my other ships have been loaned to youths over the years when appropriate.
> > > We are fortunate to have this depth. It took many years to grow to this position. Bob and his organization are doing it similarly, but at a quicker rate, almost entirely due to his generosity and that of a few supporters.
> > > It is not easy, or cheap but it is doable.
> > > FWIW
> > > UH
> > Thanks Hank, we have a great group of supporters, from instructors to ground crew and other volunteers that make what we do unique, just wish I had more tow pilots, the years are closing in on me. One of the benefits that our youth club members have is that there is NO cost involved in their training. We are not a babysitting venue, we expect our youth members to learn every phase of glider operation starting with running the line to fueling my Pawnee. One of the great things that we have done is to encourage these kids to solo on their 14th birthday, recently three of them achieved that goal within 60 days, and two of them were young girls, who in fact flew tow better than their counterparts. OBTP
> How does a poor struggling club, with just a 2-33, develop that "depth" of club gliders? Without club gliders, its hard to attract new members. Without members, its hard to build the finances to afford a nicer glider. Catch-22.

The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
UH

On 1/23/2023 11:45 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> ...
> The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> UH

Or, as was done in our club, can pool resources from multiple club
members, some more some less as they are willing and able, all loaning
money to the club to finance what needs to be financed. The club paid
these loans back over several years. Better than having your savings
just sitting in the bank losing value to inflation.

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:20:50 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 1/23/2023 11:45 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > ...
> > The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> > I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> > UH
> Or, as was done in our club, can pool resources from multiple club
> members, some more some less as they are willing and able, all loaning
> money to the club to finance what needs to be financed. The club paid
> these loans back over several years. Better than having your savings
> just sitting in the bank losing value to inflation.
Those notes can be interest only until such time as the principal can be retired. That worked for our chapter in buying adjoining land for the gliderport. It can certainly work to build the fleet and for a couple of reasons may be better than lease-back arrangements or equity interests in the long run.

Frank Whiteley

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 7:21:31 PM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:20:50 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > On 1/23/2023 11:45 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > ...
> > > The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> > > I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> > > UH
> > Or, as was done in our club, can pool resources from multiple club
> > members, some more some less as they are willing and able, all loaning
> > money to the club to finance what needs to be financed. The club paid
> > these loans back over several years. Better than having your savings
> > just sitting in the bank losing value to inflation.
> Those notes can be interest only until such time as the principal can be retired. That worked for our chapter in buying adjoining land for the gliderport. It can certainly work to build the fleet and for a couple of reasons may be better than lease-back arrangements or equity interests in the long run.
>
> Frank Whiteley

The SSA needs to develop a COMPLETE glider club package that includes a club web template, scheduling and accounting software, financing and promotional package. This is a MAJOR hurdle for newbies to navigate. As it is, anybody that wants to start a club is completely on their own.

Tom

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:45:26 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:08:19 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 6:13:19 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 9:37:29 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 12:52:40 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:07:20 PM UTC-7, Tony Smolder wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:36:31 PM UTC-6, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > I have been soaring for many decades, probably just like many of the guys and gals here on RAS. Soaring has always been a wonderful event for myself and my wife Eileen. Expecting for things to stay the same is certainly a wonderful thought, yet not ever does that turn into reality.
> > > > > > > Not saying that things should go back to the Wright Brothers days but where does this sport go from here? Many soaring sites are being consumed by urban development, and we just dodged that scenario at TCSC ourselves.
> > > > > > > The biggest challenge to clubs and commercial operators is the cost of equipment and the availability of such equipment. Our club has been fortunate to think out of the box and make things happen that resulted in expansion of the sport. Let me ask you, what is the future of the sport??? What can be done to revive the sport??? Our approach at TCSC has been a bit different than most, not everything that works for us will work for everyone or every club. I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > Bob,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It seems we are very different in the USA than many of our counterparts in the rest of the world in that gliders are loaned out. Hugh Grandstaff posted a great write-up on the poor state of our up and coming youngsters to move into XC and competition due to lack of decent XC ships and the ships sitting in hangars gathering dust. We have many of our pilots who have decent XC capable ships that either sit in a trailer or a hangar and fly infrequently or not at all, yet those pilots are not willing to help our youngsters move up by loaning, selling, or renting out their ships.... What can we do to make it easier to get those ships into the youngsters hands?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tony
> > > > > From my limited experience (but I suspect it is quite typical of many pilots from small clubs in the US), the bulk of the training is done on the venerable SGS 2-33. Many clubs don't have access to two-seater glass ships that they can then use to transition pilots from the 2-33 into more modern glass ships that are capable of XC flying. So the newly minted pilots fly the 2-33 around the pattern and eventually get bored of that and move on to find something else to spend their time and money on.
> > > > Having enough rungs on the ladder to allow pilots to progress is an important element in a club or commercial operation. Once proficient in a 2-33, let's assume that is the trainer used, the member needs another step. This is important for 2 reasons. First is that it provides the new pilot with another progress step and secondly it frees the trainer to be used for the next student. How many steps the organization can provide is the next challenge. In our club we train in 2-33's through solo. We have (3) 2-33's. Next they move to the 1-26. We have two, one of which is free to juniors. The next step is a 1-34. We require members to complete their PP certificate before they get the keys to the 1-34, not because it is hard, but to create an incentive to get the license done. A rare junior has been allowed to fly the 1-34 if the only barrier to the PP is age. After PP members also can check out and solo our ASK-21. The reasoning is the same as the 1-34. We do XC training in both the 2-33 and the '21. Obviously it is more dynamic and comfortable in the '21. Juniors, once having completed the PP have access to a Std Libelle, contest number JRs, at no cost. Several have used it to fly in their first contests. A couple of my other ships have been loaned to youths over the years when appropriate.
> > > > We are fortunate to have this depth. It took many years to grow to this position. Bob and his organization are doing it similarly, but at a quicker rate, almost entirely due to his generosity and that of a few supporters.
> > > > It is not easy, or cheap but it is doable.
> > > > FWIW
> > > > UH
> > > Thanks Hank, we have a great group of supporters, from instructors to ground crew and other volunteers that make what we do unique, just wish I had more tow pilots, the years are closing in on me. One of the benefits that our youth club members have is that there is NO cost involved in their training. We are not a babysitting venue, we expect our youth members to learn every phase of glider operation starting with running the line to fueling my Pawnee. One of the great things that we have done is to encourage these kids to solo on their 14th birthday, recently three of them achieved that goal within 60 days, and two of them were young girls, who in fact flew tow better than their counterparts. OBTP
> > How does a poor struggling club, with just a 2-33, develop that "depth" of club gliders? Without club gliders, its hard to attract new members. Without members, its hard to build the finances to afford a nicer glider. Catch-22.
> The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> UH
UH, you are exactly correct, setting up a club takes resources and time, along with individuals on the same page and developing skills to be successful. First thing on the list are people with a common goal that understand and enjoy soaring, soaring is a sport that requires several individuals to participate at the club level. Our most active individuals are instructors and tow pilots, Instructors like Tommy Augustsson, Randy Opat and Bob Gaerttner, make themselves available for instructional flights, Randy also throws in his talent with towing, along with Charlie and Dante along with Doug give the old man like me a break whenever possible. Most of those mentioned are retired therefore we are available to tow and fly seven days a week weather permitting.
We make our club fun, there is never a dull moment, even with my own parking spot that says, "Reserved For Motorglider Bob". OBTP

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 9:28:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 7:21:31 PM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:20:50 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > On 1/23/2023 11:45 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> > > > I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> > > > UH
> > > Or, as was done in our club, can pool resources from multiple club
> > > members, some more some less as they are willing and able, all loaning
> > > money to the club to finance what needs to be financed. The club paid
> > > these loans back over several years. Better than having your savings
> > > just sitting in the bank losing value to inflation.
> > Those notes can be interest only until such time as the principal can be retired. That worked for our chapter in buying adjoining land for the gliderport. It can certainly work to build the fleet and for a couple of reasons may be better than lease-back arrangements or equity interests in the long run.
> >
> > Frank Whiteley
> The SSA needs to develop a COMPLETE glider club package that includes a club web template, scheduling and accounting software, financing and promotional package. This is a MAJOR hurdle for newbies to navigate. As it is, anybody that wants to start a club is completely on their own.
>
> Tom

I wouldn't say COMPLETELY on their own. We are trying to get something going in NW Montana. We have a core group of people interested, and Frank has been involved and helpful with advise so far. But I do really like your idea, Tom. It would be really helpful if the SSA had something like a framework/template "Articles of Incorporation" for a 501c3 that could be customized to each club's individual needs, basic skeleton by-laws that again could be customized as needed, and a revolving fund or something similar that could help clubs get going financially with the purchase of a club glider. But as others have said, the financial aspect of starting a club is a huge hurdle that prevents may from getting something going.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:44:51 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 9:28:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 7:21:31 PM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:20:50 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > On 1/23/2023 11:45 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > ...
> > > > > The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> > > > > I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> > > > > UH
> > > > Or, as was done in our club, can pool resources from multiple club
> > > > members, some more some less as they are willing and able, all loaning
> > > > money to the club to finance what needs to be financed. The club paid
> > > > these loans back over several years. Better than having your savings
> > > > just sitting in the bank losing value to inflation.
> > > Those notes can be interest only until such time as the principal can be retired. That worked for our chapter in buying adjoining land for the gliderport. It can certainly work to build the fleet and for a couple of reasons may be better than lease-back arrangements or equity interests in the long run.
> > >
> > > Frank Whiteley
> > The SSA needs to develop a COMPLETE glider club package that includes a club web template, scheduling and accounting software, financing and promotional package. This is a MAJOR hurdle for newbies to navigate. As it is, anybody that wants to start a club is completely on their own.
> >
> > Tom
> I wouldn't say COMPLETELY on their own. We are trying to get something going in NW Montana. We have a core group of people interested, and Frank has been involved and helpful with advise so far. But I do really like your idea, Tom. It would be really helpful if the SSA had something like a framework/template "Articles of Incorporation" for a 501c3 that could be customized to each club's individual needs, basic skeleton by-laws that again could be customized as needed, and a revolving fund or something similar that could help clubs get going financially with the purchase of a club glider. But as others have said, the financial aspect of starting a club is a huge hurdle that prevents may from getting something going.
John, I wish you guys and gals good luck in Montana, I would love to come join the fun. Forget about the template, and the by-laws, create you own by-laws that meet your needs. Each state has an articles of incorporation and the Secretary of State office can provide you with what you need. As far as the 501c3, it is a federal tax request and you should get an accountant to apply and have a mission purpose in mind.
You may consider a c7 instead of c3, but the c3 will give you the opportunity to solicit funds. my suggestion to you and others is to think out of the box, get creative with your club, MAKE IT FUN! Create a venue that offers opportunity and develop youth members that will carry the torch in the future. Have a plan that will include projects, create social awareness and never be shy about asking for money from the community. OBTP

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:04:35 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:44:51 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 9:28:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 7:21:31 PM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > > > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:20:50 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > On 1/23/2023 11:45 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> > > > > > I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> > > > > > UH
> > > > > Or, as was done in our club, can pool resources from multiple club
> > > > > members, some more some less as they are willing and able, all loaning
> > > > > money to the club to finance what needs to be financed. The club paid
> > > > > these loans back over several years. Better than having your savings
> > > > > just sitting in the bank losing value to inflation.
> > > > Those notes can be interest only until such time as the principal can be retired. That worked for our chapter in buying adjoining land for the gliderport. It can certainly work to build the fleet and for a couple of reasons may be better than lease-back arrangements or equity interests in the long run.
> > > >
> > > > Frank Whiteley
> > > The SSA needs to develop a COMPLETE glider club package that includes a club web template, scheduling and accounting software, financing and promotional package. This is a MAJOR hurdle for newbies to navigate. As it is, anybody that wants to start a club is completely on their own.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > I wouldn't say COMPLETELY on their own. We are trying to get something going in NW Montana. We have a core group of people interested, and Frank has been involved and helpful with advise so far. But I do really like your idea, Tom. It would be really helpful if the SSA had something like a framework/template "Articles of Incorporation" for a 501c3 that could be customized to each club's individual needs, basic skeleton by-laws that again could be customized as needed, and a revolving fund or something similar that could help clubs get going financially with the purchase of a club glider. But as others have said, the financial aspect of starting a club is a huge hurdle that prevents may from getting something going.
> John, I wish you guys and gals good luck in Montana, I would love to come join the fun. Forget about the template, and the by-laws, create you own by-laws that meet your needs. Each state has an articles of incorporation and the Secretary of State office can provide you with what you need. As far as the 501c3, it is a federal tax request and you should get an accountant to apply and have a mission purpose in mind.
> You may consider a c7 instead of c3, but the c3 will give you the opportunity to solicit funds. my suggestion to you and others is to think out of the box, get creative with your club, MAKE IT FUN! Create a venue that offers opportunity and develop youth members that will carry the torch in the future. Have a plan that will include projects, create social awareness and never be shy about asking for money from the community. OBTP

Thanks for your encouragement, Bob. As I see it, the first step would be to set up an entity to own the bank account that would purchase the club glider. However, even setting up an entity takes money. And if you are not a tax accountant, you will likely need to hire one, which is not an insignificant expense either. Writing our own by-laws is fine, but having something to work from would make that process much easier--to amend or edit according to our particular needs and mission. It is always easier if you have something to start from already, than to try to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Having a basic template that we could amend or edit according to our own needs would be a big help. And having a revolving fund or sorts that the SSA could manage to help with capital investments would be HUGE as well.. There are benefits to a c7 as well as a c3, but the ability to give tax-deductible receipts is a major benefit to a c3 and would make fund-raising easier, I think. This is the way the SSA advises, if I remember correctly from my discussions with Frank.

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 9:56:05 PM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:04:35 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:44:51 AM UTC-5, johngf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 9:28:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 7:21:31 PM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:20:50 AM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > > On 1/23/2023 11:45 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > The only way I have ever seen it work is that someone who has the resources acquires the needed glider and makes it available to members.. Commonly this is done by lease back. When we transitioned from a commercial operation to a club, my wife and I leased everything to the club to get going and the club gradually bought the ships one at a time. We still lease our second towplane (Super Cub) to the club.
> > > > > > > I know of a Club in Connecticut that grew the same way. A member bought a 1-26 and made it available and then, when their tug source went away, he bought a Pawnee. The answer is basically someone( or someones) who has resources and a belief in the enterprise need to step up.
> > > > > > > UH
> > > > > > Or, as was done in our club, can pool resources from multiple club
> > > > > > members, some more some less as they are willing and able, all loaning
> > > > > > money to the club to finance what needs to be financed. The club paid
> > > > > > these loans back over several years. Better than having your savings
> > > > > > just sitting in the bank losing value to inflation.
> > > > > Those notes can be interest only until such time as the principal can be retired. That worked for our chapter in buying adjoining land for the gliderport. It can certainly work to build the fleet and for a couple of reasons may be better than lease-back arrangements or equity interests in the long run.
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank Whiteley
> > > > The SSA needs to develop a COMPLETE glider club package that includes a club web template, scheduling and accounting software, financing and promotional package. This is a MAJOR hurdle for newbies to navigate. As it is, anybody that wants to start a club is completely on their own.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > I wouldn't say COMPLETELY on their own. We are trying to get something going in NW Montana. We have a core group of people interested, and Frank has been involved and helpful with advise so far. But I do really like your idea, Tom. It would be really helpful if the SSA had something like a framework/template "Articles of Incorporation" for a 501c3 that could be customized to each club's individual needs, basic skeleton by-laws that again could be customized as needed, and a revolving fund or something similar that could help clubs get going financially with the purchase of a club glider. But as others have said, the financial aspect of starting a club is a huge hurdle that prevents may from getting something going.
> > John, I wish you guys and gals good luck in Montana, I would love to come join the fun. Forget about the template, and the by-laws, create you own by-laws that meet your needs. Each state has an articles of incorporation and the Secretary of State office can provide you with what you need. As far as the 501c3, it is a federal tax request and you should get an accountant to apply and have a mission purpose in mind.
> > You may consider a c7 instead of c3, but the c3 will give you the opportunity to solicit funds. my suggestion to you and others is to think out of the box, get creative with your club, MAKE IT FUN! Create a venue that offers opportunity and develop youth members that will carry the torch in the future. Have a plan that will include projects, create social awareness and never be shy about asking for money from the community. OBTP
> Thanks for your encouragement, Bob. As I see it, the first step would be to set up an entity to own the bank account that would purchase the club glider. However, even setting up an entity takes money. And if you are not a tax accountant, you will likely need to hire one, which is not an insignificant expense either. Writing our own by-laws is fine, but having something to work from would make that process much easier--to amend or edit according to our particular needs and mission. It is always easier if you have something to start from already, than to try to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Having a basic template that we could amend or edit according to our own needs would be a big help. And having a revolving fund or sorts that the SSA could manage to help with capital investments would be HUGE as well. There are benefits to a c7 as well as a c3, but the ability to give tax-deductible receipts is a major benefit to a c3 and would make fund-raising easier, I think. This is the way the SSA advises, if I remember correctly from my discussions with Frank.

Don't give up, keep moving in the direction of starting that club. I would be glad to share our by-laws with you and I am sure other clubs will also, yet I suggest you pull the parts from one and another that will conform to your needs. Getting started took us about ten minutes when I approached a guy and said lets start a club. I did not need a club, I had my own strip where I flew from, but soaring is a community sport and therefore I had goals in mind such as a great youth program. We organized and held a meeting to outline the club and we did not advertise, it was just word of mouth and over 40 people showed up to discuss ideas.
A couple of guys stated that they wanted to be paid for their professional services, I not so kindly told them to not let the door hit them in the ass when they left! All of our people are volunteers, instructors, tow pilots, record keepers and a lawyer who has help us with legal views. The only paid service is the CPA, and they are very helpful and keep the reduced cost in effect for the club.
Since the start of our club we have never had a month in the RED, our financial status today would open a few eyes. One of the things that you will encounter is the loss of members from each year, some lose interest and just move on, but we have experienced a steady overall growth, even during COVID, we took reasonable precautions but we did not shut the country down! Our club has been featured in Soaring Magazine, made two covers, appeared on community social platforms, newspaper articles and other venues of media.
Keep the train on the track so to speak and if there is anything that I can do or our club can do to assist with your endeavor pleas don't hesitate to ask. Old Bob, The Purist

I don't have much of an overview or broad perspective, but soaring in the US seems to be at a tipping point. This is because so many of the people who've made it happen in the last ten years are aging out completely, some wish to 'cut back' on their hours, and some hold on to become liabilities. I saw an older friend botch his last flight lesson, and I watched another botch his last flight as a tow pilot.

People willing/able to fill these empty shoes are scarce.

A sustained and intense focus on youth is obviously important, but capable glider pilots in their 20s/30s/40s are naturally focused on careers, life partners, and children. Their soaring time is limited and asking them to instruct and/or fly tow planes undercuts their ambitions to fly XC. People flying XC, especially younger XC pilots show aspiring pilots what is possible and that motivates them.

Developing people in their 50s-60s into CFIs, towpilots, and leadership roles seems to make sense because these are people who will have the time to keep things going over the next decade or so. But people of this age tend to be slower learners. Their training consumes resources that produce much quicker results with young pilots. I know student pilots in this age group who have trouble getting enough dual flight time to progress. This is largely because of a shortage of instructor capacity. Some of these frustrated students are accomplished professional power pilots. Some have sought out training at multiple commercial glider operations and clubs. Some of them give up, and that ends their potential contribution to the sport.

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 4:30:37 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I don't have much of an overview or broad perspective, but soaring in the US seems to be at a tipping point. This is because so many of the people who've made it happen in the last ten years are aging out completely, some wish to 'cut back' on their hours, and some hold on to become liabilities. I saw an older friend botch his last flight lesson, and I watched another botch his last flight as a tow pilot.
>
> People willing/able to fill these empty shoes are scarce.
>
> A sustained and intense focus on youth is obviously important, but capable glider pilots in their 20s/30s/40s are naturally focused on careers, life partners, and children. Their soaring time is limited and asking them to instruct and/or fly tow planes undercuts their ambitions to fly XC. People flying XC, especially younger XC pilots show aspiring pilots what is possible and that motivates them.
>
> Developing people in their 50s-60s into CFIs, towpilots, and leadership roles seems to make sense because these are people who will have the time to keep things going over the next decade or so. But people of this age tend to be slower learners. Their training consumes resources that produce much quicker results with young pilots. I know student pilots in this age group who have trouble getting enough dual flight time to progress. This is largely because of a shortage of instructor capacity. Some of these frustrated students are accomplished professional power pilots. Some have sought out training at multiple commercial glider operations and clubs. Some of them give up, and that ends their potential contribution to the sport.

The future is the young, let me share with you what we did today at TCSC.
Arriving this morning at 9am was a group of young school kind from the Green School in WPB, Florida. The purpose was to have a few members of our club conduct a ground school and a introduction to glider flying. Paul Agnew and Tommy Augustsson covered material with this group of school kids mostly 7th graders. After the ground school which included the SSA, SSF ground runner course of which each child passed.
After the ground session the kids were escorted to the launch line and assisted in launch procedures and wing running.
I will be posting a picture of this event on Soaring Forum Facebook, take a look for yourselves and see why we are the best youth program around, we make it happen! OBTP