On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 5:45:28 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> PM sent.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 1/21/23 15:06, Bill Tisdale wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> From the FAA
> >>
> >> These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
> >> tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
> >> accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
> >>
> >> So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
> >> aircraft in the US.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >> 5J
> >> On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
> >>> It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
> >
> > Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
> > Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
> >
> > I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.
> >
> > I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
> >
> > Bill

Thanks Dan, I got it, my reply to you got the obvious bounce.
See you in Reno!
Bill

søndag den 22. januar 2023 kl. 03.31.44 UTC+1 skrev tisda...@gmail.com:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 5:45:28 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > PM sent.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 1/21/23 15:06, Bill Tisdale wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> From the FAA
> > >>
> > >> These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
> > >> tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
> > >> accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
> > >>
> > >> So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
> > >> aircraft in the US.
> > >>
> > >> Dan
> > >> 5J
> > >> On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
> > >>> It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
> > >
> > > Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
> > > Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
> > >
> > > I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference..
> > >
> > > I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
> > >
> > > Bill
> Thanks Dan, I got it, my reply to you got the obvious bounce.
> See you in Reno!
> Bill
In Denmark it is werry common to tow with at LSA. our nabo club use a Dynamic and i my club we tow with our Rotax falke with the Rotas 912 engine, In Nordic gliding there are several articles obout towing with LSA and TMG , Red this link to the articels. It is in both Danish and English
https://nordicgliding.com/erfaringer-dynamic-slaeb-i-sandefjord-seilflyklubb/

On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 17:58:27 UTC+2, david.s....@gmail.com wrote:
> If you are towing full-sized gliders (meaning other than hang gliders or light sport) with an LSA in the United States or know of someone who is, please reply. Otherwise, may I politely and respectfully ask for silence?
>
> I have been in recent conversations about how FAA regulations (or their implementation) may or may not make it impossible to legally tow a full-sized glider with a light sport aircraft. I am looking for evidence to the contrary in the form of someone who has solved this problem and is towing with an LSA.
>
> If the reality is that this has never been accomplished, there's no need to discuss the regulations, except to seek regulatory changes.
>
> Many thanks,
> ...david

With all the legalese issues mentioned in the thread, I think another issue is overlooked: the weak link is specified by the manufacturers as MAXimum 300 KG. This is incompatible by the FAA's MINimum requirements.

I think that, in the right location, towing with an LSA would be very
good. In the US, we can not do that and charge for the tow.

Also, in New Mexico, our field elevation is 6,200' (1,890 m) MSL and,
with a 100 hp engine a turbocharger would likely be needed. Also we
must consider winds. I have towed gliders using a Pawnee with 27 kts
cross wind and I would not like to do that in such a lightly loaded
aircraft as an LSA.

Dan
5J

On 1/22/23 01:49, Henning Pedersen wrote:
> søndag den 22. januar 2023 kl. 03.31.44 UTC+1 skrev tisda...@gmail.com:
>> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 5:45:28 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> PM sent.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>> On 1/21/23 15:06, Bill Tisdale wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>>> From the FAA
>>>>>
>>>>> These aircraft may not be operated for compensation or hire except to
>>>>> tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in
>>>>> accordance with 14 CFR § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, take it up with the FAA if you want to tow with a light sport
>>>>> aircraft in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>> 5J
>>>>> On 1/21/23 04:52, Mike the Strike wrote:
>>>>>> It is sold in the USA as a light-sport, the only barrier to its glider towing is legislative.
>>>>
>>>> Dan, did you get that from someone at the FAA? Name and office via pvt email please?
>>>> Please re-read 91.317, I did not see where it restricted the glider in tow to a Light Sport Glider. It just says "glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle".
>>>>
>>>> I remember something like you said, from years ago, but I have been searching the web and my notes this week and cannot find a printed reference.
>>>>
>>>> I do understand that the issue with the EuroFox used in Europe, sold under the name of AeroTrek in the US, does not have an FAA Approved tow mechanism.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>> Thanks Dan, I got it, my reply to you got the obvious bounce.
>> See you in Reno!
>> Bill
> In Denmark it is werry common to tow with at LSA. our nabo club use a Dynamic and i my club we tow with our Rotax falke with the Rotas 912 engine, In Nordic gliding there are several articles obout towing with LSA and TMG , Red this link to the articels. It is in both Danish and English
> https://nordicgliding.com/erfaringer-dynamic-slaeb-i-sandefjord-seilflyklubb/

I would not be the queue waiting for a tow, even though I think it'd be a short one! Would
a 15 kt cross wind performance be satisfactory most of the time at Moriarty?

On 1/22/2023 10:40 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I think that, in the right location, towing with an LSA would be very good.  In the US, we
> can not do that and charge for the tow.
>
> Also, in New Mexico, our field elevation is 6,200' (1,890 m) MSL and, with a 100 hp engine
> a turbocharger would likely be needed.  Also we must consider winds.  I have towed gliders
> using a Pawnee with 27 kts cross wind and I would not like to do that in such a lightly
> loaded aircraft as an LSA.
>
> Dan
> 5J
....

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

15 kt X-wind capability is usually sufficient at 0E0. Our main runway
is 26 and our prevailing winds are generally from 200 - 310. We have a
cross wind runway, but accessing it is a long pull and staging for the
X-wind runway is inconvenient due to the geometry. Take a look on
google maps for an idea of operating off the north/south runway.

Dan
5J

On 1/23/23 10:56, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> I would not be the queue waiting for a tow, even though I think it'd be
> a short one! Would a 15 kt cross wind performance be satisfactory most
> of the time at Moriarty?
>
> On 1/22/2023 10:40 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I think that, in the right location, towing with an LSA would be very
>> good.  In the US, we can not do that and charge for the tow.
>>
>> Also, in New Mexico, our field elevation is 6,200' (1,890 m) MSL and,
>> with a 100 hp engine a turbocharger would likely be needed.  Also we
>> must consider winds.  I have towed gliders using a Pawnee with 27 kts
>> cross wind and I would not like to do that in such a lightly loaded
>> aircraft as an LSA.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
> ...
>

On Friday, 20 January 2023 at 20:46:02 UTC+2, Scott Manley wrote:
> For what it is worth, one of the tow planes in the Condor glider flight simulation is an LSA, which suggests towing with an LSA may be legal in Europe. The aircraft is a WT9 Dynamic. https://lsa.aerospool.sk

There is no such thing as LSA in EU. In EU there are bunch of local UL regulations (every country has one, often reflecting german regulation), which generally allowed for 454 kg MTOW non-certified planes, and very recently, newer regulation which allows for 600 kg MTOW UL.

These 454 kg MTOW UL planes have been used for towing for years, with generally good experience. With these UL planes flight clubs have possibility to maintain plane themselves, have a bit lower running cost (debatable), do dual instruction, use same plane for other use etc.

ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.

So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.

I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”

The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.

Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek.. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option for the Aerotrek in the USA.

Cheers,
...david

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, david.s....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> > ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.
> So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
>
> I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
>
> The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
>
> Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
>
> Cheers,
> ...david

Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)

Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
Soft landings,
Uri

Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:

Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and
is an option from the factory.

I found no mention of a tow release, however.

And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912
ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is
rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a
light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which
is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.

Dan
5J

On 1/24/23 07:38, Uri Savoray wrote:
> On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, david.s....@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
>>> ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.
>> So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
>>
>> I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
>>
>> The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
>>
>> Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> ...david
>
> Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
> If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
>
> Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
> Soft landings,
> Uri

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:30:33 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:
>
> Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and
> is an option from the factory.
>
> I found no mention of a tow release, however.
>
> And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912
> ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is
> rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a
> light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which
> is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 1/24/23 07:38, Uri Savoray wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, david.s....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> >>> ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.
> >> So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
> >>
> >> I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
> >>
> >> The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
> >>
> >> Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> ...david
> >
> > Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
> > If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
> >
> > Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
> > Soft landings,
> > Uri

My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.

Interesting. Have you towed with it? Are there any procedures in the
POH? What about the FEDs?

Dan
5J

On 1/24/23 14:24, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:24:56 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:30:33 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:
> >
> > Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and
> > is an option from the factory.
> >
> > I found no mention of a tow release, however.
> >
> > And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912
> > ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is
> > rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a
> > light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which
> > is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 1/24/23 07:38, Uri Savoray wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, david.s....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> > >>> ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.
> > >> So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
> > >>
> > >> I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
> > >>
> > >> The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
> > >>
> > >> Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> ...david
> > >
> > > Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
> > > If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
> > >
> > > Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
> > > Soft landings,
> > > Uri
> My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.
Eric, the reason for the tow hook on your Phoenix is so that you can pull it backwards into the hangar with a golf cart. Old Bob, The Purist

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:42:19 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:24:56 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:30:33 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Well... I took a look at the Phoenix website and found this:
> > >
> > > Equipped with the Rotax 912ULS, the Phoenix makes a great towplane, and
> > > is an option from the factory.
> > >
> > > I found no mention of a tow release, however.
> > >
> > > And, since the Rotax 915 iS is mentioned below, please note that the 912
> > > ULS in the Phoenix delivers 100 hp at sea level whereas the 915 iS is
> > > rated at 141 hp at sea level. If I was going to try towing with such a
> > > light aircraft as a Phoenix or Eurofox, I'd want the 915 iS engine which
> > > is not currently offered on the Phoenix website.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > > On 1/24/23 07:38, Uri Savoray wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 16:25:59 UTC+2, david.s....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:24 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> > > >>> ULs are not as robust or powerful as Pawnee, which is still the gold standard for tow plane, but they are considered as a good enough compromise for many uses, towing included.
> > > >> So it would appear that nobody tows gliders with LSA in the USA. If we believe that the high cost of operations is a significant contributor to the decline of gliding in the USA, then perhaps US pilots should be advocating for regulatory changes to allow LSA tow planes. Some regulations are already in place. Per § 91.327, the two things you can do for hire in an LSA (in the USA) are instruct and tow gliders. What is missing is an FAA approved tow release for LSA.
> > > >>
> > > >> I asked the original question in this thread after reading a review of the 140 hp Eurofox 915iS flight tested as a tow plane. The article appears in the current edition of the BGA magazine Sailplane & Gliding. The last line of the review is "...in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete.”
> > > >>
> > > >> The claims include much lower fuel consumption, faster return from tow (liquid cooled heads prevent shock cooling), and quieter operation (four blade prop). The folding wings could be useful for some.
> > > >>
> > > >> Elsewhere I found that the Eurofox and the Kitfox are both derived from the Avid Flyer, but independently. The Eurofox is sold in the USA as Aerotrek. In Britain and Europe you can buy the Eurofox already equipped for towing, but that is not an option for the Aerotrek in the USA.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >> ...david
> > > >
> > > > Our club in Israel just received our 915iS Eurofox, and we are waiting for the paperwork (CofA) to test it. We have been using two EuroFoxes (one with 912iS and one with 912ULS engine) until now. Performance is adequate, though marginal with the big ships on hot days. Our biggest doubt re the 915iS is its performance in hot days: if this is relevant to you, we will surely have 40+ degrees C days in a few months, and will report the results.
> > > > If considering the regulations, do look at the weak-link requirements! The max on the Eurofox is not compatible with the min in the FAR! (for all but the lightest gliders)
> > > >
> > > > Along the way, I think we got the FAA to approve the type (915iS) in the US (helped with the local CAA).
> > > > Soft landings,
> > > > Uri
> > My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.
> Eric, the reason for the tow hook on your Phoenix is so that you can pull it backwards into the hangar with a golf cart. Old Bob, The Purist

You must be thinking of a Pawnee! At 760 lbs, the Phoenix is so easy to move around, it only takes one person: stand behind it, grab the leading edge of the elevator near the fin, and walk backwards, steering with the other hand holding the rudder. The tail wheel is connected to the rudder with a push rod, so it goes backwards very easily.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:16:43 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Interesting. Have you towed with it? Are there any procedures in the
> POH? What about the FEDs?
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 1/24/23 14:24, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > My Phoenix has the Tost towhook installed (2014), but I don't know what is supplied since the new owner acquired the company.

No, I haven't tried towing with it, nor are there any procedures in my 2014 POH. Won't talk to the FEDs until I decide I'm want to do it.