On 2022-04-30 3:30 a.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <t4iigl$efs$1@dont-email.me> wasbit <wasbitREMOVE@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Andy Burnelli" <spam@nospam.com>" wrote in message
>> news:t4hl6o$s9i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>> Costco is great, but Nitrogen fill is a marketing gimmick much like Face ID
>>> is a marketing gimmick.
>
> Oh look, mr ignorant dipshit is spouting off uniformed bullshit. Again.
> Shocking.
>
>> My green cap tire fill is way more better than your black cap tire fill.
>> If it wasn't way more better, why did they change the color of the cap?
>
> There are definite advantages to nitrogen filled tires, as 0.3 seconds
> on your favorite search engine will reveal.

There are advantages to nitrogen...

....but for everyday driving, they're just not very important.

On 4/30/2022 1:40 PM, wasbit wrote:
> "sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>" wrote in message
> <news:t4jl2h$id0$1@dont-email.me>...
>
>> On 4/29/2022 10:47 PM, wasbit wrote:
>>> "Andy Burnelli" <spam@nospam.com>" wrote in message
>>> news:t4hl6o$s9i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>
>>>>> Most tire places charge extra for nitrogen fill.
>>>>
>>>> Costco is great, but Nitrogen fill is a marketing gimmick much like
>>>> Face ID is a marketing gimmick.
>>>> It serves one main purpose which is to _differentiate_ their "air"
>>>> from someone elses' air. Nothing more than that.
>>>> Green caps are brilliant marketing ploys... but any _adult_ would
>>>> realize that the nitrogen in tires is a gimmick if they simply knew
>>>> what it is.
>>>
>>> My green cap tire fill is way more better than your black cap tire fill.
>>> If it wasn't way more better, why did they change the color of the cap?
>>
>> Exactly!!
>>
>> Seriously though, while I would not pay extra for nitrogen fill, since
>> it's included with tire installation at Costco, I'll take it.
>>
>> Costco actually has a vested interest in using nitrogen because they
>> include a road hazard warranty at no extra cost, and because they
>> actually honor tread wear warranties (many tire stores will find any
>> excuse possible to avoid honoring warranties). Nitrogen fill means
>> fewer tires operating at low pressure and fewer warranty claims.
>>
>> Andy can educate himself about nitrogen-fill for tires here:
>> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/using-nitrogen-for-tire-inflation-advantages--disadvantages>.
>>
>
> The gov cares about passenger tire underinflation accident reduction.
>
> The gov scoped their passenger car tire nitrogen study fifteen years ago.
> https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-GAO-07-246R/html/GAOREPORTS-GAO-07-246R.htm
>
>
> This is a 2008 NHTSA report on nitrogen in passenger tires that resulted.
>
> The Effects of Inflation Gas on Tire Laboratory Test Performance
> https://www.solsticeforum.com/attachments/nhtsa-2008-0121-0002-1-1-pdf.14247/
>
>
> Too technical for me.
> What do you make of that gov study on a 95% nitrogen mandate in car tires?

I want to try nitrous oxide in mine.

--
ÄLSKAR - Fänga Dagen

Слава Україні та НАТО

On 2022-04-30 11:15 a.m., Ken Olson wrote:
> On 4/30/2022 1:40 PM, wasbit wrote:
>> "sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>" wrote in message
>> <news:t4jl2h$id0$1@dont-email.me>...
>>
>>> On 4/29/2022 10:47 PM, wasbit wrote:
>>>> "Andy Burnelli" <spam@nospam.com>" wrote in message
>>>> news:t4hl6o$s9i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>
>>>>>> Most tire places charge extra for nitrogen fill.
>>>>>
>>>>> Costco is great, but Nitrogen fill is a marketing gimmick much like
>>>>> Face ID is a marketing gimmick.
>>>>> It serves one main purpose which is to _differentiate_ their "air"
>>>>> from someone elses' air. Nothing more than that.
>>>>> Green caps are brilliant marketing ploys... but any _adult_ would
>>>>> realize that the nitrogen in tires is a gimmick if they simply knew
>>>>> what it is.
>>>>
>>>> My green cap tire fill is way more better than your black cap tire
>>>> fill.
>>>> If it wasn't way more better, why did they change the color of the cap?
>>>
>>> Exactly!!
>>>
>>> Seriously though, while I would not pay extra for nitrogen fill,
>>> since it's included with tire installation at Costco, I'll take it.
>>>
>>> Costco actually has a vested interest in using nitrogen because they
>>> include a road hazard warranty at no extra cost, and because they
>>> actually honor tread wear warranties (many tire stores will find any
>>> excuse possible to avoid honoring warranties). Nitrogen fill means
>>> fewer tires operating at low pressure and fewer warranty claims.
>>>
>>> Andy can educate himself about nitrogen-fill for tires here:
>>> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/using-nitrogen-for-tire-inflation-advantages--disadvantages>.
>>>
>>
>> The gov cares about passenger tire underinflation accident reduction.
>>
>> The gov scoped their passenger car tire nitrogen study fifteen years ago.
>> https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-GAO-07-246R/html/GAOREPORTS-GAO-07-246R.htm
>>
>>
>> This is a 2008 NHTSA report on nitrogen in passenger tires that resulted.
>>
>> The Effects of Inflation Gas on Tire Laboratory Test Performance
>> https://www.solsticeforum.com/attachments/nhtsa-2008-0121-0002-1-1-pdf.14247/
>>
>>
>> Too technical for me.
>> What do you make of that gov study on a 95% nitrogen mandate in car
>> tires?
>
> I want to try nitrous oxide in mine.
>

Ha! It is to laugh!

On 2022-04-29 2:27 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> The tread, actually the evenness of the wear, is the problem in mountains.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/wTf1xnzJ/mount36.jpg> Cause for uneven tread wear

Wow. Basically everything drawn onto this image is wrong.

You're showing a car that is clearly up on a jack on the side we cannot
see to simulate the car rolling in a turn...

....but you're showing it rolling to the INSIDE, when in FACT...

(You remember you're all about "FACT", right?)

....cars roll to the OUTSIDE when they turn.

The inside tire in a turn typically rolls MORE than the car rolls as the
suspension geometry is usually optimized to make the camber of the more
heavily loaded outside tires as favourable as possible.

And while it is true that the inside "corner" of the inside tire will be
the part that is more loaded (and SOME of the tread near the OUTSIDE)
might be off the ground), the load is less, so it doesn't matter that much.

>
> As I mentioned, Costco is a fine outfit. Reputable. Honest. Reliable.
> But Steve doesn't live in the mountains. Essentially that guarrantee is
> worthless if you live in the mountains. We've covered this many times on
> the auto newsgroup (with scores of photos) so just trust me on this fact.
> Santa Cruz Mts BMW <https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg>

Sorry, but that wear pattern does NOT represent that the car is "well
maintained"

> Santa Cruz Mts LEXUS <https://i.postimg.cc/G3HWPtQg/mount39.jpg>

This doesn't inform very much but at least it's not a complete clusterfuck.

> Santa Cruz Mts TOYOTA <https://i.postimg.cc/pT71cQZG/mount41.jpg>

Mountains make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in how a tire wears.

> For example, in these steep curvy Santa Cruz Mountains roadways, we all
> burn though front tires on their _outside_ edges
> <https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg>
> due to what Xeno & Clare have explained is likely camber scrub:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/G3HWPtQg/mount39.jpg>
> where the effect is noticeable on front tires in a few thousand miles
> <https://i.postimg.cc/8zVxVHVx/mount40.jpg>
> and, where close observation shows the effect in only hundreds of miles
> <https://i.postimg.cc/pT71cQZG/mount41.jpg>
> such that one side of the tire is worn while the other half is fine
> <https://i.postimg.cc/G2rYpQnp/mount23.jpg>
> and where frequent tire rotation only resolves half the problem
> <https://i.postimg.cc/63Kc80x9/mount29.jpg>
> Since the tire is still rotating in the same direction on the wheel.

You are a perfect exemplar of the old adage:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool...

....than to speak and remove all doubt".

In message <t4jtr8$pig$2@dont-email.me> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 3:30 a.m., Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t4iigl$efs$1@dont-email.me> wasbit <wasbitREMOVE@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Andy Burnelli" <spam@nospam.com>" wrote in message
>>> news:t4hl6o$s9i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>
>>>> Costco is great, but Nitrogen fill is a marketing gimmick much like Face ID
>>>> is a marketing gimmick.
>>
>> Oh look, mr ignorant dipshit is spouting off uniformed bullshit. Again.
>> Shocking.
>>
>>> My green cap tire fill is way more better than your black cap tire fill.
>>> If it wasn't way more better, why did they change the color of the cap?
>>
>> There are definite advantages to nitrogen filled tires, as 0.3 seconds
>> on your favorite search engine will reveal.

> There are advantages to nitrogen...

> ...but for everyday driving, they're just not very important.

The biggest advantage for me is that the tires hold the pressure much
better, so i don't have to go top-off the pressure.

The reasons to not do it are expense (I get my tires at Costco, I do not
pay extra for nitrogen and the tires are cheaper than other places) and
the amount of time it takes (irrelevant to me, I am not filling/bleeding
the tires).

But claiming it's a "marketing gimmick" is just more bullshit form the
raving pile of bullshit named Arlen.

--
Noble dragons don't have friends. The nearest they can get to the
idea is an enemy who is still alive. --Guards! Guards!

On 4/30/2022 2:40 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 11:15 a.m., Ken Olson wrote:
>> On 4/30/2022 1:40 PM, wasbit wrote:
>>> "sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>" wrote in message
>>> <news:t4jl2h$id0$1@dont-email.me>...
>>>
>>>> On 4/29/2022 10:47 PM, wasbit wrote:
>>>>> "Andy Burnelli" <spam@nospam.com>" wrote in message
>>>>> news:t4hl6o$s9i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most tire places charge extra for nitrogen fill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Costco is great, but Nitrogen fill is a marketing gimmick much
>>>>>> like Face ID is a marketing gimmick.
>>>>>> It serves one main purpose which is to _differentiate_ their "air"
>>>>>> from someone elses' air. Nothing more than that.
>>>>>> Green caps are brilliant marketing ploys... but any _adult_ would
>>>>>> realize that the nitrogen in tires is a gimmick if they simply
>>>>>> knew what it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> My green cap tire fill is way more better than your black cap tire
>>>>> fill.
>>>>> If it wasn't way more better, why did they change the color of the
>>>>> cap?
>>>>
>>>> Exactly!!
>>>>
>>>> Seriously though, while I would not pay extra for nitrogen fill,
>>>> since it's included with tire installation at Costco, I'll take it.
>>>>
>>>> Costco actually has a vested interest in using nitrogen because they
>>>> include a road hazard warranty at no extra cost, and because they
>>>> actually honor tread wear warranties (many tire stores will find any
>>>> excuse possible to avoid honoring warranties). Nitrogen fill means
>>>> fewer tires operating at low pressure and fewer warranty claims.
>>>>
>>>> Andy can educate himself about nitrogen-fill for tires here:
>>>> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/using-nitrogen-for-tire-inflation-advantages--disadvantages>.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The gov cares about passenger tire underinflation accident reduction.
>>>
>>> The gov scoped their passenger car tire nitrogen study fifteen years
>>> ago.
>>> https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-GAO-07-246R/html/GAOREPORTS-GAO-07-246R.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a 2008 NHTSA report on nitrogen in passenger tires that
>>> resulted.
>>>
>>> The Effects of Inflation Gas on Tire Laboratory Test Performance
>>> https://www.solsticeforum.com/attachments/nhtsa-2008-0121-0002-1-1-pdf.14247/
>>>
>>>
>>> Too technical for me.
>>> What do you make of that gov study on a 95% nitrogen mandate in car
>>> tires?
>>
>> I want to try nitrous oxide in mine.
>>
>
> Ha! It is to laugh!

If you're feeling down, get out your balloon!

--
ÄLSKAR - Fänga Dagen

Слава Україні та НАТО

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 12:57:59 PM, Alan wrote:

> Mountains make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in how a tire wears.

Do you know why twisty mountain roads cause abnormal tire wear on the
outside edges of the front inside tire on tight turns or not?

The only solution for an otherwise properly aligned wheel is to lessen
positive caster which decreases the increased camber on the tight turns.
https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/

When replying write in your own words what you understood of what I said.

Lewis wrote:

> But claiming it's a "marketing gimmick" is just more bullshit form the
> raving pile of bullshit

Lewis has _never_ even once in his life ever read Consumer Reports.

Why?
I don't know why.

I suspect Lewis gets _all_ his information from marketing advertisements.
Instead of from reputable outfits.

Like Consumer Reports is.

FACT:
*Should You Use Nitrogen in Your Car Tires?*
<https://www.consumerreports.org/tire-buying-maintenance/should-you-use-nitrogen-in-car-tires-a6260003694/>

On 2022-04-30 12:14 p.m., Lewis wrote:
> In message <t4jtr8$pig$2@dont-email.me> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-04-30 3:30 a.m., Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <t4iigl$efs$1@dont-email.me> wasbit <wasbitREMOVE@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "Andy Burnelli" <spam@nospam.com>" wrote in message
>>>> news:t4hl6o$s9i$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>
>>>>> Costco is great, but Nitrogen fill is a marketing gimmick much like Face ID
>>>>> is a marketing gimmick.
>>>
>>> Oh look, mr ignorant dipshit is spouting off uniformed bullshit. Again.
>>> Shocking.
>>>
>>>> My green cap tire fill is way more better than your black cap tire fill.
>>>> If it wasn't way more better, why did they change the color of the cap?
>>>
>>> There are definite advantages to nitrogen filled tires, as 0.3 seconds
>>> on your favorite search engine will reveal.
>
>> There are advantages to nitrogen...
>
>> ...but for everyday driving, they're just not very important.
>
> The biggest advantage for me is that the tires hold the pressure much
> better, so i don't have to go top-off the pressure.

But you should check tire pressures with some regularity anyway, so what
does it matter?

>
> The reasons to not do it are expense (I get my tires at Costco, I do not
> pay extra for nitrogen and the tires are cheaper than other places) and
> the amount of time it takes (irrelevant to me, I am not filling/bleeding
> the tires).
>
> But claiming it's a "marketing gimmick" is just more bullshit form the
> raving pile of bullshit named Arlen.

Oh, I know.

As it happens, I use nitrogen for my tires...

....on my racing car.

I do it more for practical purposes; it means I don't need to have a
compressor at the track. The racing tires in my class all bleed down
very quickly, so they need to be filled pretty much before each session.

Ken Olson wrote:

>>>> What do you make of that gov study on a 95% nitrogen mandate in car
>>>> tires?
>>>
>>> I want to try nitrous oxide in mine.
>>>
>>
>> Ha! It is to laugh!
>
> If you're feeling down, get out your balloon!

That link supplied to the government PDF is a nice find because it shows
NHTSA found no practical advantage to nitrogen in tires, just as CR did.

It's a gimmick.

More to the point, only people with abnormally low IQ fall for paying extra
for air that has a visible green cap but which has no practical value.

On 2022-04-30 12:38 p.m., Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 12:57:59 PM, Alan wrote:
>
>> Mountains make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in how a tire wears.
>
> Do you know why twisty mountain roads cause abnormal tire wear on the
> outside edges of the front inside tire on tight turns or not?

Tight turns might cause wear (nothing to do with it being on a mountain)...

....but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside tire...

....as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
tires when turning)...

....and the outside edge is the least loaded portion of the least loaded
tire (see below for why).
>
> The only solution for an otherwise properly aligned wheel is to lessen
> positive caster which decreases the increased camber on the tight turns.
> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>
> When replying write in your own words what you understood of what I said.

Typical values for caster on a road car are about 3-5 degrees. Even at 5
degrees and a steering lock of 45 degrees, the camber gained is:

0.55 * 45° = 2.475°

So if your tires are at -1° static camber (a typical value), the camber
will go to 1.475°...

....only if your car doesn't roll to the outside at all.

If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
probably still have negative camber.

And then there's the fact that small values of camber don't actually
cause much (if any) tire wear.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 10:04:15 PM, Alan wrote:

> Tight turns might cause wear (nothing to do with it being on a mountain)...

How is the force on the front tires different when traveling or braking on
a level straight road from when traveling or braking on tight steep
downhill curves?

> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside tire...

Read the explanation again on the causes of outside front tire wear.
Write back in your own words what you understood from that explanation.

> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
> tires when turning)...

Write back in your own words why it matters most to the outside edge of the
inside front tire when traveling or braking on steep downhill curves.

> ...and the outside edge is the least loaded portion of the least loaded
> tire (see below for why).

Read the explanation again and write back what you learned about why the
outside edge of the inside tire has increased camber due to the forces.

>> The only solution for an otherwise properly aligned wheel is to lessen
>> positive caster which decreases the increased camber on the tight turns.
>> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>>
>> When replying write in your own words what you understood of what I said.
>
> Typical values for caster on a road car are about 3-5 degrees. Even at 5
> degrees and a steering lock of 45 degrees, the camber gained is:
>
> 0.55 * 45� = 2.475�
>
> So if your tires are at -1� static camber (a typical value), the camber
> will go to 1.475�...
>
> ...only if your car doesn't roll to the outside at all.
>
> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
> probably still have negative camber.
>
> And then there's the fact that small values of camber don't actually
> cause much (if any) tire wear.

Try again.

Explain in your own words why traveling and braking on tight steep downhill
slopes causes abnormal wear to the outside edge of the inside front tire.

It's in the explanation already provided. You missed it. Try again.

On 1/5/2022 5:53 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Ken Olson wrote:
>
>>>>> What do you make of that gov study on a 95% nitrogen mandate in car
>>>>> tires?
>>>>
>>>> I want to try nitrous oxide in mine.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ha! It is to laugh!
>>
>> If you're feeling down, get out your balloon!
>
> That link supplied to the government PDF is a nice find because it shows
> NHTSA found no practical advantage to nitrogen in tires, just as CR did.
>
> It's a gimmick.
>
> More to the point, only people with abnormally low IQ fall for paying extra
> for air that has a visible green cap but which has no practical value.

For what its worth, using nitrogen in tyres is just another way to suck
people into a *regular subscription payment* when they top up their tyres.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 1/5/2022 6:04 am, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 12:38 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 12:57:59 PM, Alan wrote:
>>
>>> Mountains make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in how a tire wears.
>>
>> Do you know why twisty mountain roads cause abnormal tire wear on the
>> outside edges of the front inside tire on tight turns or not?
>
> Tight turns might cause wear (nothing to do with it being on a mountain)...

More likely to get the sharpest turns on a mountain road.
>
> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside tire...
>
> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
> tires when turning)...

Nothing to do with load transfer. Effect occurs even at low speeds.
>
> ...and the outside edge is the least loaded portion of the least loaded
> tire (see below for why).
>>
>> The only solution for an otherwise properly aligned wheel is to lessen
>> positive caster which decreases the increased camber on the tight turns.
>> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>>
>>
>> When replying write in your own words what you understood of what I said.
>
> Typical values for caster on a road car are about 3-5 degrees. Even at 5
> degrees and a steering lock of 45 degrees, the camber gained is:
>
>  0.55 * 45° = 2.475°
>
> So if your tires are at -1° static camber (a typical value), the camber
> will go to 1.475°...
>
> ...only if your car doesn't roll to the outside at all.
>
> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
> probably still have negative camber.

Think about KPI/SAI and its effect on camber in turns. You are only
thinking of camber gain in bump and/or rebound.
>
> And then there's the fact that small values of camber don't actually
> cause much (if any) tire wear.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 4/30/2022 11:12 PM, Xeno wrote:
>> More to the point, only people with abnormally low IQ fall for paying extra
>> for air that has a visible green cap but which has no practical value.
>
> For what its worth, using nitrogen in tyres is just another way to suck
> people into a *regular subscription payment* when they top up their tyres.

It doesn't help the tires but it helps the tire provider's bottom line, or
they wouldn't bother to do it.

BTW, what did you think about the claim from somebody that steep twisty
mountain driving doesn't wear tires any more than driving on flat roads
does?

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:30:43 PM, Xeno wrote:
>> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside tire...
>>
>> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
>> tires when turning)...
>
> Nothing to do with load transfer. Effect occurs even at low speeds.

Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
>> probably still have negative camber.
>
> Think about KPI/SAI and its effect on camber in turns. You are only
> thinking of camber gain in bump and/or rebound.

Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
increases with increasing steering input at any speed or inclination, do
you think a slight decrease in positive caster might lessen the inevitable
camber scrub effect on the outside edge of the inside front tire on tight
turns?

Would the drawback be decreased stability on the bumpy level straights?

On 2022-04-30 3:30 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 6:04 am, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-04-30 12:38 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 12:57:59 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mountains make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in how a tire wears.
>>>
>>> Do you know why twisty mountain roads cause abnormal tire wear on the
>>> outside edges of the front inside tire on tight turns or not?
>>
>> Tight turns might cause wear (nothing to do with it being on a
>> mountain)...
>
> More likely to get the sharpest turns on a mountain road.

And?

Let's speak accurately.

>>
>> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside
>> tire...
>>
>> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
>> tires when turning)...
>
> Nothing to do with load transfer. Effect occurs even at low speeds.

You've yet to demonstrate that the effect exists at all.

>>
>> ...and the outside edge is the least loaded portion of the least
>> loaded tire (see below for why).
>>>
>>> The only solution for an otherwise properly aligned wheel is to lessen
>>> positive caster which decreases the increased camber on the tight turns.
>>> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>>>
>>>
>>> When replying write in your own words what you understood of what I
>>> said.
>>
>> Typical values for caster on a road car are about 3-5 degrees. Even at
>> 5 degrees and a steering lock of 45 degrees, the camber gained is:
>>
>>   0.55 * 45° = 2.475°
>>
>> So if your tires are at -1° static camber (a typical value), the
>> camber will go to 1.475°...
>>
>> ...only if your car doesn't roll to the outside at all.
>>
>> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
>> probably still have negative camber.
>
> Think about KPI/SAI and its effect on camber in turns. You are only
> thinking of camber gain in bump and/or rebound.

Nope. You are utterly wrong.

I'm talking about all things that affect camber.

Look: I've been into vehicle dynamics for more than 40 years and have an
actual racing car where questions of camber gain are far more than academic.

>>
>> And then there's the fact that small values of camber don't actually
>> cause much (if any) tire wear.
>
>

On 2022-04-30 3:44 p.m., Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:30:43 PM, Xeno wrote:
>
>>> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside tire...
>>>
>>> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
>>> tires when turning)...
>>
>> Nothing to do with load transfer. Effect occurs even at low speeds.
>
> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?

Define your terms.

What is "increased camber based scrub radius" even supposed to mean?

>
>>> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
>>> probably still have negative camber.
>>
>> Think about KPI/SAI and its effect on camber in turns. You are only
>> thinking of camber gain in bump and/or rebound.
>
> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
> increases with increasing steering input at any speed or inclination, do
> you think a slight decrease in positive caster might lessen the inevitable
> camber scrub effect on the outside edge of the inside front tire on tight
> turns?

First demonstrate that any such effect exists.

>
> Would the drawback be decreased stability on the bumpy level straights?

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:51:44 AM, Alan wrote:

> What is "increased camber based scrub radius" even supposed to mean?

The person I was asking already explained it to you as he's aware of the
effect that with a positive kingpin angle the outside wheel in a corner
will gain positive camber and the inside wheel will lose positive camber.

Let him answer the question.

On 2022-04-30 1:16 p.m., Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 10:04:15 PM, Alan wrote:
>
>> Tight turns might cause wear (nothing to do with it being on a mountain)...
>
> How is the force on the front tires different when traveling or braking on
> a level straight road from when traveling or braking on tight steep
> downhill curves?
>
>> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside tire...
>
> Read the explanation again on the causes of outside front tire wear.
> Write back in your own words what you understood from that explanation.
>
>> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
>> tires when turning)...
>
> Write back in your own words why it matters most to the outside edge of the
> inside front tire when traveling or braking on steep downhill curves.
>
>> ...and the outside edge is the least loaded portion of the least loaded
>> tire (see below for why).
>
> Read the explanation again and write back what you learned about why the
> outside edge of the inside tire has increased camber due to the forces.
>
>>> The only solution for an otherwise properly aligned wheel is to lessen
>>> positive caster which decreases the increased camber on the tight turns.
>>> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>>>
>>> When replying write in your own words what you understood of what I said.
>>
>> Typical values for caster on a road car are about 3-5 degrees. Even at 5
>> degrees and a steering lock of 45 degrees, the camber gained is:
>>
>> 0.55 * 45� = 2.475�
>>
>> So if your tires are at -1� static camber (a typical value), the camber
>> will go to 1.475�...
>>
>> ...only if your car doesn't roll to the outside at all.
>>
>> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
>> probably still have negative camber.
>>
>> And then there's the fact that small values of camber don't actually
>> cause much (if any) tire wear.
>
> Try again.
>
> Explain in your own words why traveling and braking on tight steep downhill
> slopes causes abnormal wear to the outside edge of the inside front tire.
>
> It's in the explanation already provided. You missed it. Try again.

No. It isn't, so I couldn't miss it.

But if you think the explanation is in anything provided so far...

....just quote it and provide the reference.

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 1:25:14 AM, Alan wrote:

>> It's in the explanation already provided. You missed it. Try again.
>
> No. It isn't, so I couldn't miss it.
>
> But if you think the explanation is in anything provided so far...
>
> ...just quote it and provide the reference.

How could you keep missing the answer when it was explained to you multiple
times by multiple people?

It was explained to you by someone else already and it's in the explanation
of front tire wear on the outside edges that you already were to have read.
https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/

"When the camber setting becomes positive, the wheel tilts, putting more
pressure on the outside shoulder of its tire. Over time, as rubber scrubs
off faster on the one edge, the tire develops uneven wear."

I'm done with wasting my time with you if you can't get it after being told
three or four times.

On 2022-04-30 4:37 p.m., Thomas wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 1:25:14 AM, Alan wrote:
>
>>> It's in the explanation already provided. You missed it. Try again.
>>
>> No. It isn't, so I couldn't miss it.
>>
>> But if you think the explanation is in anything provided so far...
>>
>> ...just quote it and provide the reference.
>
> How could you keep missing the answer when it was explained to you multiple
> times by multiple people?

How is it that you can't quote where it was explained?

>
> It was explained to you by someone else already and it's in the explanation
> of front tire wear on the outside edges that you already were to have read.
> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>
> "When the camber setting becomes positive, the wheel tilts, putting more
> pressure on the outside shoulder of its tire. Over time, as rubber scrubs
> off faster on the one edge, the tire develops uneven wear."

But the inside tire in a corner goes into NEGATIVE camber; both from the
roll of the vehicle to the outside AND because of the suspension moving
into droop.

>
> I'm done with wasting my time with you if you can't get it after being told
> three or four times.

I hate to pull an Arlen here, but should I collect up all the books I've
read on vehicle dynamics?

On 2022-04-30 4:11 p.m., Thomas wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:51:44 AM, Alan wrote:
>
>> What is "increased camber based scrub radius" even supposed to mean?
>
> The person I was asking already explained it to you as he's aware of the
> effect that with a positive kingpin angle the outside wheel in a corner
> will gain positive camber and the inside wheel will lose positive camber.
>
> Let him answer the question.

No one here that I saw used that phrase.

On 1/5/2022 8:33 am, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 4/30/2022 11:12 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>> More to the point, only people with abnormally low IQ fall for paying
>>> extra
>>> for air that has a visible green cap but which has no practical value.
>>
>> For what its worth, using nitrogen in tyres is just another way to
>> suck people into a *regular subscription payment* when they top up
>> their tyres.
>
> It doesn't help the tires but it helps the tire provider's bottom line, or
> they wouldn't bother to do it.
>
> BTW, what did you think about the claim from somebody that steep twisty
> mountain driving doesn't wear tires any more than driving on flat roads
> does?

The camber gain from KPI/SAI will always wear tyres more on the outside
edge during high or full lock turns. Mountain driving, with sharp
hairpin bends, will guarantee it. Even in normal city street driving,
camber gain will be prevalent and worse on the nearside tyre. If you
have a comprehensive understanding of steering and suspension design,
then it is quite an easy thing to visualise. Weber Auto, on You Tube,
did something on steering some time back and, IIRC, they explained the
aspect of KPI/SAI that causes the issue. It is not a well understood
issue, even in the trade, but is *one* of the reasons tyre rotation is
essential. Just turn your steering to full lock and look at the camber
angle of the *inside* wheel - camber gain will be very evident. The
effect is worse if the vehicle has wider low profile tyres.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 2022-04-30 6:27 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 8:33 am, WaltS48 wrote:
>> On 4/30/2022 11:12 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>> More to the point, only people with abnormally low IQ fall for
>>>> paying extra
>>>> for air that has a visible green cap but which has no practical value.
>>>
>>> For what its worth, using nitrogen in tyres is just another way to
>>> suck people into a *regular subscription payment* when they top up
>>> their tyres.
>>
>> It doesn't help the tires but it helps the tire provider's bottom
>> line, or
>> they wouldn't bother to do it.
>>
>> BTW, what did you think about the claim from somebody that steep twisty
>> mountain driving doesn't wear tires any more than driving on flat roads
>> does?
>
> The camber gain from KPI/SAI will always wear tyres more on the outside
> edge during high or full lock turns.

Quantify that gain...

....or admit you don't know what you're talking about.

> Mountain driving, with sharp
> hairpin bends, will guarantee it. Even in normal city street driving,
> camber gain will be prevalent and worse on the nearside tyre. If you
> have a comprehensive understanding of steering and suspension design,
> then it is quite an easy thing to visualise. Weber Auto, on You Tube,
> did something on steering some time back and, IIRC, they explained the
> aspect of KPI/SAI that causes the issue. It is not a well understood
> issue, even in the trade, but is *one* of the reasons tyre rotation is
> essential. Just turn your steering to full lock and look at the camber
> angle of the *inside* wheel - camber gain will be very evident. The
> effect is worse if the vehicle has wider low profile tyres.

Load matters too, sunshine.

And you have it backwards.

King pin inclination will reduce positive camber.