Hey, guys! I've been thinking about this idea and I'm wondering if it's worth pursuing. So, our gliders have this reclined position where our legs, feet, and the instrument panel are smack in the middle of our field of view. But what if we had a glider with a more upright sitting position and a glass cockpit that would let us see well below us as we fly over amazing sights like mountain tops, ridges, clouds, and even wildlife? Some powered aircraft, like the Edgley Optica and the Seabird Seeker, have this amazing view, and I just think it would be incredible to have the same experience in a glider.
If your club had a glider with this cockpit with amazing views and an open class wingspan for keeping a decent performance, would you be interested in flying it? Do you think you would enjoy flying it more than a conventional high-performance glider?
Thanks, looking forward to hearing your opinions.

On Wednesday, 22 March 2023 at 16:39:57 UTC, Gonzalo Garcia-Atance wrote:
> Hey, guys! I've been thinking about this idea and I'm wondering if it's worth pursuing. So, our gliders have this reclined position where our legs, feet, and the instrument panel are smack in the middle of our field of view.. But what if we had a glider with a more upright sitting position and a glass cockpit that would let us see well below us as we fly over amazing sights like mountain tops, ridges, clouds, and even wildlife? Some powered aircraft, like the Edgley Optica and the Seabird Seeker, have this amazing view, and I just think it would be incredible to have the same experience in a glider.
> If your club had a glider with this cockpit with amazing views and an open class wingspan for keeping a decent performance, would you be interested in flying it? Do you think you would enjoy flying it more than a conventional high-performance glider?
> Thanks, looking forward to hearing your opinions.

No thanks. I prefer a cockpit with crash protection up to CS-22 standard.

No, because it would probably be pretty ugly, and the all-around view would make it obvious to your buddies that YOU were flying it.

El miércoles, 22 de marzo de 2023 a las 18:08:04 UTC, John Galloway escribió:
> On Wednesday, 22 March 2023 at 16:39:57 UTC, Gonzalo Garcia-Atance wrote:
> > Hey, guys! I've been thinking about this idea and I'm wondering if it's worth pursuing. So, our gliders have this reclined position where our legs, feet, and the instrument panel are smack in the middle of our field of view. But what if we had a glider with a more upright sitting position and a glass cockpit that would let us see well below us as we fly over amazing sights like mountain tops, ridges, clouds, and even wildlife? Some powered aircraft, like the Edgley Optica and the Seabird Seeker, have this amazing view, and I just think it would be incredible to have the same experience in a glider.
> > If your club had a glider with this cockpit with amazing views and an open class wingspan for keeping a decent performance, would you be interested in flying it? Do you think you would enjoy flying it more than a conventional high-performance glider?
> > Thanks, looking forward to hearing your opinions.
> No thanks. I prefer a cockpit with crash protection up to CS-22 standard.
I do not see why it should not be even more save than a conventional reclined pilot position, as you can put more distance between your vertebrae and the exterior of the fuselage.

Hi Gonzalo,

You may find this interesting. It is a prototype/concept made by Glasflügel. I don't know if it actually flew. I posted a page from the book Glasflugel on my Soaring News Facebook page. You can see it using the link below.
https://www.facebook.com/CumulusSoaring/posts/pfbid0hAnrF9GEx3Bk5LUiHCqgUnUUE8tNvskz5Np8hWx7jMvrYxERaDuNkuTP8Wuf6pP7l

From the book Glasflügel
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/glasflugel-book

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

I do not see why it should not be even more save than a conventional reclined pilot position, as you can put more distance between your vertebrae and the exterior of the fuselage.

Because Plexiglass has no structural integrity. It will shatter on impact, leaving many sharp fragments to interfere with your skin's ability to keep the blood on the inside of your little pink body. Carbon Fiber, Kevlar and even fiberglass can absorb some if not all crash forces. Sitting inside a clear eggshell isn't what I want to deal with if I am in a situation where I might get smacked with a planet. Distance from the exterior of the aircraft to the vertebra is immaterial. Plenty of other body parts will hit first.

El miércoles, 22 de marzo de 2023 a las 23:26:11 UTC, Mark Mocho escribió:
> I do not see why it should not be even more save than a conventional reclined pilot position, as you can put more distance between your vertebrae and the exterior of the fuselage.
> Because Plexiglass has no structural integrity. It will shatter on impact, leaving many sharp fragments to interfere with your skin's ability to keep the blood on the inside of your little pink body. Carbon Fiber, Kevlar and even fiberglass can absorb some if not all crash forces. Sitting inside a clear eggshell isn't what I want to deal with if I am in a situation where I might get smacked with a planet. Distance from the exterior of the aircraft to the vertebra is immaterial. Plenty of other body parts will hit first.
Thats an interesting point I was not considering... thanks very much. I supouse the Plexiglas can be supported by a frame all around the edge. But anyway I will have a look into this. I have been thinking about this glider for more than a decade now...

Coming from hang gliding like many of us, I sure miss the view below. Maybe that’s why I am circling too much. would love to have better visibility if it could be achieved without compromising safety much.
I wouldn’t mind compromising a point or two on glide. DGs have better visibility than most other gliders.

Ramy

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 4:36:06 PM UTC-7, Gonzalo Garcia-Atance wrote:
> El miércoles, 22 de marzo de 2023 a las 23:26:11 UTC, Mark Mocho escribió:
> > I do not see why it should not be even more save than a conventional reclined pilot position, as you can put more distance between your vertebrae and the exterior of the fuselage.
> > Because Plexiglass has no structural integrity. It will shatter on impact, leaving many sharp fragments to interfere with your skin's ability to keep the blood on the inside of your little pink body. Carbon Fiber, Kevlar and even fiberglass can absorb some if not all crash forces. Sitting inside a clear eggshell isn't what I want to deal with if I am in a situation where I might get smacked with a planet. Distance from the exterior of the aircraft to the vertebra is immaterial. Plenty of other body parts will hit first.
> Thats an interesting point I was not considering... thanks very much. I supouse the Plexiglas can be supported by a frame all around the edge. But anyway I will have a look into this. I have been thinking about this glider for more than a decade now...

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 6:30:13 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> Coming from hang gliding like many of us, I sure miss the view below. Maybe that’s why I am circling too much. would love to have better visibility if it could be achieved without compromising safety much.
> I wouldn’t mind compromising a point or two on glide. DGs have better visibility than most other gliders.
>
> Ramy
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 4:36:06 PM UTC-7, Gonzalo Garcia-Atance wrote:
> > El miércoles, 22 de marzo de 2023 a las 23:26:11 UTC, Mark Mocho escribió:
> > > I do not see why it should not be even more save than a conventional reclined pilot position, as you can put more distance between your vertebrae and the exterior of the fuselage.
> > > Because Plexiglass has no structural integrity. It will shatter on impact, leaving many sharp fragments to interfere with your skin's ability to keep the blood on the inside of your little pink body. Carbon Fiber, Kevlar and even fiberglass can absorb some if not all crash forces. Sitting inside a clear eggshell isn't what I want to deal with if I am in a situation where I might get smacked with a planet. Distance from the exterior of the aircraft to the vertebra is immaterial. Plenty of other body parts will hit first.
> > Thats an interesting point I was not considering... thanks very much. I supouse the Plexiglas can be supported by a frame all around the edge. But anyway I will have a look into this. I have been thinking about this glider for more than a decade now...

Sawzall!
Nick
T

I think that changing the pilot position to something like the upright seat in the SGS 2-33 would increase the frontal area and "wetted" surface of the correspondingly larger fuselage would cost a LOT more than "a point or two" of glide. And a big bubble and a 2-33 fuselage shape would look pretty ridiculous with a set of 21-meter wings. I agree that the loss of the all-around view we enjoyed in hang gliders is sorely missed, but my knees are grateful for the upgrade to landing on a wheel.

I considered adding wheels to my hang glider control bar, but quickly found out that it put my face at the precise height of some particularly annoying cactus happily defending their home space against intruders.

Changing the pilot position to something like the upright seat in the SGS 2-33 will increase the frontal area and "wetted" surface of the correspondingly larger fuselage and would cost a LOT more than "a point or two" of glide. And a big bubble and a 2-33 fuselage shape would look pretty ridiculous with a set of 21-meter wings. I agree that the loss of the all-around view we enjoyed in hang gliders is sorely missed, but my knees are grateful for the upgrade to landing on a wheel.

I considered adding wheels to my hang glider control bar, but quickly found out that it put my face at the precise height of some particularly annoying cactus happily defending their home space against intruders.

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 5:30:13 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Coming from hang gliding like many of us, I sure miss the view below. Maybe that’s why I am circling too much. would love to have better visibility if it could be achieved without compromising safety much.
> I wouldn’t mind compromising a point or two on glide. DGs have better visibility than most other gliders.
>
> Ramy
About 15 years ago, I experimented with a camera mounted on the bottom of fuselage, approximately underneath my knees, pointed down and forward at about 45 degrees. The display on the panel. It was somewhat useful, and now cameras and displays are so much better, it'd be worth trying again.

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 8:56:33 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 5:30:13 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Coming from hang gliding like many of us, I sure miss the view below. Maybe that’s why I am circling too much. would love to have better visibility if it could be achieved without compromising safety much.
> > I wouldn’t mind compromising a point or two on glide. DGs have better visibility than most other gliders.
> >
> > Ramy
> About 15 years ago, I experimented with a camera mounted on the bottom of fuselage, approximately underneath my knees, pointed down and forward at about 45 degrees. The display on the panel. It was somewhat useful, and now cameras and displays are so much better, it'd be worth trying again.
Tweak a Condor glider to have more plex, and fly around with it. See if you like it. I use a head tracker, and sometimes find myself sticking my head "through" the canopy to look below me for traffic, etc.

> Tweak a Condor glider to have more plex, and fly around with it. See if you like it. I use a head tracker, and sometimes find myself sticking my head "through" the canopy to look below me for traffic, etc.

And you don't even muss your hair in the non-existent slipstream.

Eric beat me to the suggestion of a camera, flush mount, almost no drag, the downside is it'd add one more thing to detract from see and avoid.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=VRh4YVoT&id=EB782D3CB8B43724F3F9E234D7567A8487F8D22A&thid=OIP.VRh4YVoTiQn0tRXpPF0NAAEsDh&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.551878615a138909f4b515e93c5d0d00%3Frik%3DKtL4h4R6Vtc04g%26riu%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fi.ytimg.com%252fvi%252fjoOj7_VMTfg%252f0.jpg%26ehk%3DcdYQ5rrCcbMnOOeaSoTNvuTx%252b40F6STweiRMtRsc%252fus%253d%26risl%3D%26pid%3DImgRaw%26r%3D0&exph=360&expw=480&q=Glider+GAPA&simid=608024506101546749&form=IRPRST&ck=153106D13A409F4A8D65A46DC116F20D&selectedindex=15&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11

The GAPA has pretty good visibility
Nick
T

Nick- In our hang gliders, visibility in all directions was one of the best things about the sport. However, as speeds got higher, landings got to be more challenging and there came a time that the tradeoff between performance and safety became an issue. Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention "AGE." After about 35, you simply can't bounce as well without denting or breaking something and recovering with a few beers and a joint to fly again tomorrow.

The open-air concept for visibility is desirable, but if you want higher performance, you have to accept the increased risk of less structural protection coupled with higher landing speeds. On a runway, a wheel is a great thing. Out in the desert, or trees, or whatever miserable outlanding area you are stuck with, that wheel doesn't get to do its job before some solid obstruction changes the course of your life.

I'll take the wheel and minimal protection afforded by my 38-year-old glider cockpit over a hang glider or paraglider today, but I definitely miss my "immortal" life of 30 years ago. Hang gliding was, by far, the most fun I ever had. And it lasted for 28 years before my knees forced me into sailplanes.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=ySEr4gX%2f&id=FBCD5EEB471DE9CFDE2D51B77ADA6F416D858A89&thid=OIP.ySEr4gX_eISfItWHrSk43AHaFj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fi.ytimg.com%2fvi%2fi-nuBQ66N_8%2fhqdefault.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.c9212be205ff78849f22d587ad2938dc%3frik%3diYqFbUFv2nq3UQ%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=360&expw=480&q=super+floater+ultralight+glider&simid=608047162050156131&FORM=IRPRST&ck=CB7A531E27254E6F8D6EB7BAD45B1598&selectedIndex=18&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

Only 15/1 but great visibility
You sit in front of the wing so you can look up too.
I looked in my logbook last night; back in April 12th 2001 I got to fly one of these at the Wallaby Ranch Hang Gliding club in FLA just SW of Seminole.. 4.2 hr flight!
A friend owned it and knowing I was a glider pilot he asked me if I'd like to take it up.

It was a nice Cu filled sky and I had a good time, it flew great - well balanced, just kinda slow of course.
It had a BRS and HG instruments.
Chilly up at base and hard to pee without a catheter and hose setup. My friend dressed me a motorcycle rain suit which helped alot at base.
Used my full-face HG helmet
But a total blast for local flying .
Took a little getting used too, being so exposed.
There were alot of Hang Gliding buddies up to thermal with and glide around with that day.
Super Floater= Super Fun!
Nick
T

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 5:43:08 AM UTC, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

> Tweak a Condor glider ... etc

I'll make it if I get 500 deposits of 10€

Don't know if it was the same one, but I flew the Super floater at Wallaby in 2000. Not as great a flight as you had, but still fun. Back then, I wasn't worried about crashworthiness considering I was normally flying a pure hang glider, but when I got into sailplanes, the tripling of the landing speed made me more conscious of the potential for injury or worse.

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 6:15:21 PM UTC-7, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=VRh4YVoT&id=EB782D3CB8B43724F3F9E234D7567A8487F8D22A&thid=OIP.VRh4YVoTiQn0tRXpPF0NAAEsDh&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.551878615a138909f4b515e93c5d0d00%3Frik%3DKtL4h4R6Vtc04g%26riu%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fi.ytimg.com%252fvi%252fjoOj7_VMTfg%252f0.jpg%26ehk%3DcdYQ5rrCcbMnOOeaSoTNvuTx%252b40F6STweiRMtRsc%252fus%253d%26risl%3D%26pid%3DImgRaw%26r%3D0&exph=360&expw=480&q=Glider+GAPA&simid=608024506101546749&form=IRPRST&ck=153106D13A409F4A8D65A46DC116F20D&selectedindex=15&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&vt=0&sim=11
>
> The GAPA has pretty good visibility
> Nick
> T
I flew one many years ago. It has so much visibility, it is not possible to make the seat belt tight enough to banish the feeling you are about to slide sideways off the seat to your certain death. But, I liked it after a while.

Here you go, problem solved:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6NZ7-D8LM

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 9:59:12 PM UTC+1, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Gonzalo,
>
> You may find this interesting. It is a prototype/concept made by Glasflügel. I don't know if it actually flew. I posted a page from the book Glasflugel on my Soaring News Facebook page. You can see it using the link below.
> https://www.facebook.com/CumulusSoaring/posts/pfbid0hAnrF9GEx3Bk5LUiHCqgUnUUE8tNvskz5Np8hWx7jMvrYxERaDuNkuTP8Wuf6pP7l
>
> From the book Glasflügel
> https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/glasflugel-book
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

It was a mock up only

/Robert

Condor has a couple options for the view you seek.
1) The SG-38 primary glider available here (https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/condor2-sg38) for $13
2) Cntl + F1 toggles the cockpit view, including completely eliminating it, in any Condor glider - the ultimate birds-eye view from high performance gliders, allows you to sit up-right, and is perfectly safe.

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 9:19:39 AM UTC-4, Scott Manley wrote:
> Condor has a couple options for the view you seek.
> 1) The SG-38 primary glider available here (https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/condor2-sg38) for $13
> 2) Cntl + F1 toggles the cockpit view, including completely eliminating it, in any Condor glider - the ultimate birds-eye view from high performance gliders, allows you to sit up-right, and is perfectly safe.
And one more,
A VR headset lets you put your head outside the canopy (as mentioned with Track IR above), looking over the canopy rail. Better yet, VR lets you completely step outside the glider while in flight (I suspect Track IR might as well). A couple years back I had Condor + VR set up at the Reno convention. While in mid-flight, I would pause the simulation and have the pilot physically stand up. Now virtually standing in a glider cockpit thousands of feet AGL, I would have them turn around and look at the tail of the aircraft. I would then ask the pilot to take two steps to the left, i.e., step out the cockpit into open space. I had a few folks who refused to take those two steps. Their brains and survival instincts simply would not allow it.. For those of you who end up trying this, you may be surprised (and somewhat dismayed) when you look back into the cockpit after stepping out of it.