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computers / comp.mobile.android / Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

SubjectAuthor
* re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovVanguardLH
|`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
| `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |    `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | || `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||  +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexKen Olson
|  | | ||   |    | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | ||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   |    | |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |    | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |    |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   |      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |       `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |        `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |         `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |          `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |           `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |            `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |             `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |              `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||       `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |  | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  |  `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | |  |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |     |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    | `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli

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Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t57ib5$p1k$3@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 21:52:53 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 8 May 2022 04:52 UTC

On 2022-05-07 9:50 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>
>>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>>
>> I always brake this way either way.  It wigs me out when I ride with
>> people who slow down quickly.  Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
>> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and
>> pulse the brakes when slowing down.
>
> Good. Almost nobody knows that the key is to brake harder earlier, rather
> than braking harder later, and, most importantly, NOT leaving your foot on
> the pedal at the stop.
>
> I've never met a person in my life who was adamant that his rotors warped
> who had ever measured the warp they're so very certain happened, that
> didn't.
>
> It's one more case of how shockingly stupid most people are.

How shockingly stupid you are...

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t586ev$rlc$1@dont-email.me>

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 11:36:08 +0100
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 by: NY - Sun, 8 May 2022 10:36 UTC

"Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message news:t57i62$p1k$1@dont-email.me...

> Do the math on a single stop from highway speed.
>
> My 2012 BMW 135i MSport Edition weights 4,255lbs, so stopping it from
> 60mph must dissipate 694,273 Joules.
>
> We'll assume that all the energy of the stop remains in the rotors
> themselves, and that BMW has done it's job properly and that therefore the
> front and rear brake rotors are proportional in mass to the energy each
> must dissipate.
>
> So we can take the total mass of the rotors, the heat capacity of steel
> and calculate the change in temperature.
>
> The mass of those rotors is 34.47kg
>
> The specific heat of steel is about 420 joules per kilogram per degree
>
> 420J/kg*c
>
> So with 34.47kg, we get 14,477.4 J per degree C temperature change, and
> dividing the 694,273 joules we've got, we get a temperature change of...
>
> ...just about 48 degree.
>
> If it's a warm summer day, you're not going to want to touch the rotors,
> as they will now be above the boiling point of water (about 120°C)...
>
> (Provided you ignore the energy lost to the airflow and also dissipated by
> the mass of the pads and calipers themselves, as well was the energy
> conducted into the hub of each wheel)...
>
> ...but it's hardly going to be enough to deposit brake pad material onto
> the disk.
>
> This is why brake bedding procedures call for MULTIPLE retardations from
> highway speed in order to get the disks hot enough to deposit an even
> layer of pad material onto the surface.
>
> I know this, because in my amateur racing "career", I'm also a senior
> racing instructor, and because our students are driving road cars for
> sessions where the brakes actually WILL get to the temperatures that can
> cause that kind of deposition, we always tell them not to apply the
> parking braking when returning to the paddock after a session.

I remember many years ago watching a "for schools and colleges" TV science
programme at school about "energy". It talked about converting kinetic
energy into other forms. As an example, they rigged up a camera on a car,
pointing at the front brake disc. They they took it on a racing track (they
emphasised that this was off-road!), and repeatedly accelerated to 70 and
then braked hard to a stop. After a few cycles of this, the discs were
glowing cherry red. I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot,
and that brake pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t58odq$den$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 16:43:12 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 8 May 2022 15:43 UTC

NY wrote:

> I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot,
> and that brake pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.

Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.

Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to reach
in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking about.

Regarding pad deposition, it's hard to believe, (even for me), but it takes
only a small amount (almost impossible to measure directly) of "bump" of
collected pad chemical "footprint" to build up to the point it's felt while
braking (usually at highway speeds).

Just as I ask all iKooks for a _single_ fact that backs up their entire
belief system (and they almost never can answer that simple question), I
ask anyone who claims their rotors warped what the measurements were.

And they don't have them.
Because...

Because they simply guessed.
Why?

Intuition is a terrible thing.
--
Intuition is a terrible thing when it's coming from an evolved monkey.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t58okt$gje$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 16:46:58 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 8 May 2022 15:46 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Intuition is a terrible thing.

Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents" intuition, by
the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.

If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask them for
one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
matters.

Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
--
Intuition is a terrible thing.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t58q82$dqi$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 09:13:53 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sun, 8 May 2022 16:13 UTC

On 2022-05-08 8:43 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> NY wrote:
>
>> I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot, and that brake
>> pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.
>
> Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
> happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.
>
> Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to reach
> in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking about.
>
> Regarding pad deposition, it's hard to believe, (even for me), but it takes
> only a small amount (almost impossible to measure directly) of "bump" of
> collected pad chemical "footprint" to build up to the point it's felt while
> braking (usually at highway speeds).
>
> Just as I ask all iKooks for a _single_ fact that backs up their entire
> belief system (and they almost never can answer that simple question), I
> ask anyone who claims their rotors warped what the measurements were.
>
> And they don't have them.
> Because...
> Because they simply guessed.
> Why?
>
> Intuition is a terrible thing.

Isn't it interesting how you've clipped and ignored all the facts presented.

:-)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: michael....@att.net (Michael Trew)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 12:49:30 -0400
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 by: Michael Trew - Sun, 8 May 2022 16:49 UTC

On 5/8/2022 0:52, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-07 7:39 p.m., Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 5/7/2022 1:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>
>>> But what you do is compensate for that creep by slowing the car down and
>>> stopping well before you would otherwise do.
>>>
>>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>>
>> I always brake this way either way. It wigs me out when I ride with
>> people who slow down quickly. Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
>> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and
>> pulse the brakes when slowing down.
>
> Assuming a similar time to stop the vehicle, it makes no difference
> whether you stop quickly or slowly; the range of "quick" to "slow" isn't
> sufficiently different.
>
> If you start from the same speed, and brake to the same place...
>
> ...you're dissipating the same amount of energy.

The primary reason that I brake early is for safety. Last minute is not
a good idea.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 18:25:44 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 8 May 2022 17:25 UTC

Michael Trew wrote:

> The primary reason that I brake early is for safety. Last minute is not
> a good idea.

I realize you're responding to another point from another person...

My point is... In terms of what people call "rotor warp", the primary point
I'm trying to make is that holding the pad against the hot rotor at the end
of a stop is the one thing you want to avoid (any way that you can avoid
it).

It doesn't matter as much _how_ you stop as not holding the pad firmly
against a hot rotor when you're done stopping.

Although we could discuss the total amount of heat being dissipated in a
short hard fast stop versus a long slow rolling stop - but that's another
thing altogether to my point about "rotor warp" (as people call it).

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t58ulg$hf3$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 10:29:20 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 8 May 2022 17:29 UTC

On 2022-05-08 9:49 a.m., Michael Trew wrote:
> On 5/8/2022 0:52, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-05-07 7:39 p.m., Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 5/7/2022 1:38, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But what you do is compensate for that creep by slowing the car down
>>>> and
>>>> stopping well before you would otherwise do.
>>>>
>>>> Instead of exiting the highway and then jamming on the brakes and
>>>> HOLDING them there in that spot (while they're red hot) waiting at the
>>>> light, you apply the brakes earlier and slow down more gradually and
>>>> then you stop the vehicle well before the light.
>>>
>>> I always brake this way either way.  It wigs me out when I ride with
>>> people who slow down quickly.  Perhaps because I'm used to old beaters
>>> with less reliable braking systems, but I always take it easy and
>>> pulse the brakes when slowing down.
>>
>> Assuming a similar time to stop the vehicle, it makes no difference
>> whether you stop quickly or slowly; the range of "quick" to "slow" isn't
>> sufficiently different.
>>
>> If you start from the same speed, and brake to the same place...
>>
>> ...you're dissipating the same amount of energy.
>
> The primary reason that I brake early is for safety.  Last minute is not
> a good idea.

I'm not saying one should do a full-on, threshold-braking racing stop.

(Which I am actually capable of doing)

I'm just correcting a misconception about braking and heat.

:-)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 10:31:21 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 8 May 2022 17:31 UTC

On 2022-05-08 10:25 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>
>> The primary reason that I brake early is for safety.  Last minute is
>> not a good idea.
>
> I realize you're responding to another point from another person...
> My point is... In terms of what people call "rotor warp", the primary point
> I'm trying to make is that holding the pad against the hot rotor at the end
> of a stop is the one thing you want to avoid (any way that you can avoid
> it).

If the rotor was actually very hot...

....which it almost never is in street driving.

> It doesn't matter as much _how_ you stop as not holding the pad firmly
> against a hot rotor when you're done stopping.
>
> Although we could discuss the total amount of heat being dissipated in a
> short hard fast stop versus a long slow rolling stop - but that's another
> thing altogether to my point about "rotor warp" (as people call it).

What's to discuss except for the fact that if the stops are both from
the same initial speed, you'll be dissipating precisely the same amount
of energy as heat?

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t58utt$hf3$3@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Alan - Sun, 8 May 2022 17:33 UTC

On 2022-05-08 8:46 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>
> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents" intuition, by
> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>
> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask them for
> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
> matters.
>
> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.

This isn't marketing.

It's quite obvious logic.

Reading text messages is not something you want people to be doing while
driving.

Writing them on a tiny smartphone onscreen keyboard is insane.

Handsfree phone use with your smart assistant reading messages...

....sure, that's safe enough.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jdr4ejF2re0U1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31976&group=comp.mobile.android#31976

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android rec.autos.tech misc.phone.mobile.iphone
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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:09:52 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Mon, 9 May 2022 00:09 UTC

On 9/5/2022 1:43 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> NY wrote:
>
>> I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot, and that brake
>> pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.
>
> Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
> happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.

When I was doing a lot of brake repairs, and operating a brake lathe, I
came across many warped rotors. One is required, after all, to check
discs and drums for wear, distortion, runout and the like. In my
experience, there were two possible factors involved in warped discs -
overheating of rotors and incorrect sequence tightening of wheel nuts.
Or simply overtightening. And, no, they didn't come out of the factory
already warped. The worst for warping through overtightening were the
integral hub and disc rotor. The separate rotor tended to be more prone
to warping through overheating. Note too, a warped disc will evince
different symptoms to a disc suffering pad deposition. The first car I
owned that suffered from disc warping was a MkII 240 Ford Cortina but I
drove that thing like a rally car back in the days.
>
> Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to reach
> in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking about.

I managed to reach it on one car I owned back in the early days of disc
brakes. Admittedly, the rotor was sub par on the thickness hence a
reduced heat capacity. It sure melted at the periphery though and was
showing signs of heat stress all over - it was black and blue. ;-)
>
> Regarding pad deposition, it's hard to believe, (even for me), but it takes
> only a small amount (almost impossible to measure directly) of "bump" of
> collected pad chemical "footprint" to build up to the point it's felt while
> braking (usually at highway speeds).
>
> Just as I ask all iKooks for a _single_ fact that backs up their entire
> belief system (and they almost never can answer that simple question), I
> ask anyone who claims their rotors warped what the measurements were.

Who remembers actual numbers from a couple of decades or more back? I
used to measure runout, thickness variation, taper, etc, compare to
specs, then machine. If they wouldn't clean up and still remain within
specs, they would be replaced, and that could be determined from the
measurements.

This was my preferred brake lathe;

https://www.ammcobrake.com/ammco-brake-lathe-model-4000b

Though not that current model.

You need to be very careful these days as some marques feature disc
rotors that cannot be machined. The rotor is considered a disposable
item just as much as the disc pads are. It's the only way by which the
manufacturers can get the friction coefficients up to acceptable levels.
>
> And they don't have them.
> Because...
> Because they simply guessed.
> Why?
>
> Intuition is a terrible thing.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jdr4giF2re0U2@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31977&group=comp.mobile.android#31977

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android rec.autos.tech misc.phone.mobile.iphone
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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:10:57 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t58okt$gje$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Mon, 9 May 2022 00:10 UTC

On 9/5/2022 1:46 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>
> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents" intuition, by
> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>
> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask them for
> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
> matters.
>
> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.

Distracted drivers using cellphones cause accidents.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jdr4ihF2re0U3@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31978&group=comp.mobile.android#31978

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android rec.autos.tech misc.phone.mobile.iphone
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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:12:01 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Mon, 9 May 2022 00:12 UTC

On 9/5/2022 3:33 am, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-08 8:46 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>>
>> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents"
>> intuition, by
>> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
>> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>>
>> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask
>> them for
>> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
>> matters.
>>
>> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
>
> This isn't marketing.
>
> It's quite obvious logic.
>
> Reading text messages is not something you want people to be doing while
> driving.
>
> Writing them on a tiny smartphone onscreen keyboard is insane.
>
> Handsfree phone use with your smart assistant reading messages...
>
> ...sure, that's safe enough.

It is still a *distraction* from the primary function the driver should
be focussed on - driving.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t59nm2$buf$4@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31979&group=comp.mobile.android#31979

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android rec.autos.tech misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 17:36:18 -0700
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 by: Alan - Mon, 9 May 2022 00:36 UTC

On 2022-05-08 5:09 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 9/5/2022 1:43 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> NY wrote:
>>
>>> I was quite surprised that discs would get *that* hot, and that brake
>>> pads would withstand contact with red-hot metal.
>>
>> Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
>> happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.
>
> When I was doing a lot of brake repairs, and operating a brake lathe, I
> came across many warped rotors. One is required, after all, to check
> discs and drums for wear, distortion, runout and the like. In my
> experience, there were two possible factors involved in warped discs -
> overheating of rotors and incorrect sequence tightening of wheel nuts.
> Or simply overtightening. And, no, they didn't come out of the factory
> already warped. The worst for warping through overtightening were the
> integral hub and disc rotor. The separate rotor tended to be more prone
> to warping through overheating. Note too, a warped disc will evince
> different symptoms to a disc suffering pad deposition. The first car I
> owned that suffered from disc warping was a MkII 240 Ford Cortina but I
> drove that thing like a rally car back in the days.
>>
>> Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to
>> reach
>> in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking about.
>
> I managed to reach it on one car I owned back in the early days of disc
> brakes. Admittedly, the rotor was sub par on the thickness hence a
> reduced heat capacity. It sure melted at the periphery though and was
> showing signs of heat stress all over - it was black and blue.  ;-)
>>
>> Regarding pad deposition, it's hard to believe, (even for me), but it
>> takes
>> only a small amount (almost impossible to measure directly) of "bump" of
>> collected pad chemical "footprint" to build up to the point it's felt
>> while
>> braking (usually at highway speeds).
>>
>> Just as I ask all iKooks for a _single_ fact that backs up their entire
>> belief system (and they almost never can answer that simple question), I
>> ask anyone who claims their rotors warped what the measurements were.
>
> Who remembers actual numbers from a couple of decades or more back? I
> used to measure runout, thickness variation, taper, etc, compare to
> specs, then machine. If they wouldn't clean up and still remain within
> specs, they would be replaced, and that could be determined from the
> measurements.
>
> This was my preferred brake lathe;
>
> https://www.ammcobrake.com/ammco-brake-lathe-model-4000b
>
> Though not that current model.
>
> You need to be very careful these days as some marques feature disc
> rotors that cannot be machined. The rotor is considered a disposable
> item just as much as the disc pads are. It's the only way by which the
> manufacturers can get the friction coefficients up to acceptable levels.

Yup!

My BMW 135i MSport's rotors are like that.

:-)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t59nmp$buf$5@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31980&group=comp.mobile.android#31980

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 17:36:41 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Mon, 9 May 2022 00:36 UTC

On 2022-05-08 5:10 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 9/5/2022 1:46 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>>
>> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents"
>> intuition, by
>> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
>> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>>
>> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask
>> them for
>> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
>> matters.
>>
>> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
>
> Distracted drivers using cellphones cause accidents.
>

Of course they do.

Arlen is (as usual) utterly ignorant of reality.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 17:37:40 -0700
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 by: Alan - Mon, 9 May 2022 00:37 UTC

On 2022-05-08 5:12 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 9/5/2022 3:33 am, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-05-08 8:46 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>
>>>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>>>
>>> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents"
>>> intuition, by
>>> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
>>> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>>>
>>> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask
>>> them for
>>> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact
>>> that
>>> matters.
>>>
>>> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
>>
>> This isn't marketing.
>>
>> It's quite obvious logic.
>>
>> Reading text messages is not something you want people to be doing
>> while driving.
>>
>> Writing them on a tiny smartphone onscreen keyboard is insane.
>>
>> Handsfree phone use with your smart assistant reading messages...
>>
>> ...sure, that's safe enough.
>
> It is still a *distraction* from the primary function the driver should
> be focussed on - driving.
>

Sure...

....but if you want to go down that road, so is using or even listening
to the radio...

....to say nothing of talking to a passenger.

Sorry, but there are such things in this world as "reasonable limits"

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 11:52:46 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Mon, 9 May 2022 01:52 UTC

On Mon, 09 May 2022 10:12:01 +1000, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> On 9/5/2022 3:33 am, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-05-08 8:46 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>>
>>>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>>>
>>> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents"
>>> intuition, by
>>> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
>>> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>>>
>>> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask
>>> them for
>>> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact
>>> that
>>> matters.
>>>
>>> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions &
>>> intuition.
>> This isn't marketing.
>> It's quite obvious logic.
>> Reading text messages is not something you want people to be doing
>> while driving.
>> Writing them on a tiny smartphone onscreen keyboard is insane.
>> Handsfree phone use with your smart assistant reading messages...
>> ...sure, that's safe enough.
>
> It is still a *distraction* from the primary function the driver should
> be focussed on - driving.
>

So is talking to the pax and listening to the radio.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 23:38:14 -0700
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 by: sms - Mon, 9 May 2022 06:38 UTC

On 5/8/2022 5:10 PM, Xeno wrote:
> On 9/5/2022 1:46 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>>> Intuition is a terrible thing.
>>
>> Don't even get me started on the "cellphones cause accidents"
>> intuition, by
>> the way, as monkeys intuit all sorts of stuff that doesn't show up in
>> independent statistics outside {police,insurance,law} politics.
>>
>> If someone wants to claim "cellphones cause accidents", I only ask
>> them for
>> one fact, which they never can produce... and which is the only fact that
>> matters.
>>
>> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
>
> Distracted drivers using cellphones cause accidents.

Andy Burnelli/Arlen Holder/Dean Hoffman/Nil/Robin Goodfellow/more is
wrong of course™.

According to the the NHTSA, for 2019 in the U.S.:

Total fatal crashes: 33,244
Total fatalities in fatal crashes: 36,096
Fatal crashes caused by distracted driving: 2,895 (9%)
Total fatalities in fatal crashes caused by distracted driving: 3,142 (9%)
Number of cellphone distraction-affected fatal crashes: 387 (13%)
Number of cellphone distraction-affected fatalities: 422 (13%)

So about 87% of distracted driving crashed and fatalities were caused by
factors other than cell phones.

So about 1.2% of fatal crashes (9% x 13%) were caused by drivers
distracted by cell phones.

The NHTSA mentions other distractions that make up the 87%, "eating and
drinking, talking to people in your vehicle, fiddling with the stereo,
entertainment or navigation system."

<https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-distracted-driving>

Using a phone while driving is a distraction even when it's being used
hands-free.

Not sure how to address the other 87% of distracted driving fatalities,
or even the portion of the 13% caused by cell phone use since even
hands-free doesn't solve the distracted driving problem. Texting while
driving could be addressed via technology but it would have to
distinguish between drivers and passengers. In the two vehicles we have
owned with built in navigation systems, you can't enter addresses when
the vehicle is moving, which is a real pain when a passenger could be
the one using the system. There were workarounds but they were beyond
the capability of most owners.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5airv$tfh$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 09:20:37 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 9 May 2022 08:20 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> It is still a *distraction* from the primary function the driver should
> be focussed on - driving.

Hi Xeno,

The problem here is that intuition is a terrible thing when it's wrong.

I don't discuss anything with Rod Speed or Alan Baker (or Jock, who is just
Rod Speed by another nym, et. al), but you can comprehend basic logic.

First off, _everyone_ (including me!) would "think" that cellphones are a
_sufficient_ distraction to cause accidents, and, in fact, they do.

Except....

There is zero evidence of that happening, en masse, in the "good" data,
which is the US Census Bureau data from the 1920's to current on traffic
accidents in each state (individually & combined) over the years.

None. zip. nada.

The _only_ place you see this supposed increase in accidents is in the
bullshit data {e.g., news anecdotes, lawyer web pages, insurance company
web pages and police/politician web pages}.

Now maybe lawyers and especially insurance companies know more than does
the US Census Bureau of traffic accidents, but that's not likely. It's far
more likely their data is skewed. So let's ignore their skewed crap at
first (we can always come back to their crap when/if we need to if we want
to).

If we look at the best data there is for US traffic accidents, you find
zero effect from the very clear ownership information of cellphones in the
US which sky rocketed in a decade and yet accident rates didn't change a
blip from their general downward trend that they always had (last I checked
was pre-covid days but _rates_ don't depend on miles driven so I'd expect
no change from covid given cellphone ownership didn't change either).

No adult discussion is possible until you agree on that fact (which I don't
expect anyone to agree with until they check for themselves). Once they do
agree on that fact, then (and only then) we can progress to why.

I think I know _why_ cellphones have zero effect on the overall accident
rate and the reason why I think is that people who will have accidents will
_always_ have accidents (essentially because they're stupid people when it
comes to driving - but let's not go there yet). (There's a reason insurance
companies give discounts to intelligent people.)

The fact is that cellphones _are_ a distraction, and the fact is there are
plenty of bigger and smaller distractions when driving.

I don't expect anyone to understand a word I'm saying above, mainly because
people are stuck on the idea that cellphones _do_ cause accidents enough to
change the rate, but the facts show that just isn't true.

Intuition is a terrible thing when it's wrong.

Anyway, I think the reason the fact is that cellphones didn't change the
accident rate had nothing to do with laws (as people don't follow the law
and even if they did, laws were enacted at different times in different
states and the rates didn't show any change anyway)...

Nope.

The reason, I think cellphones didn't change the rates is that, instead of,
oh, say, the top ten, twenty, or fifty or even a hundred distractions that
"can" happen while driving, cellphones phones simply took the place of one
of them, oh, say, just making this up, say it's number eight.

So what happened is the previous number 8 distraction (say that was crying
babies) just moved to number 9, and the total number of distractions (say
it was 100 before, changed to 101), and that's why there's no change in
accident rates.

In summary, three points I make for intelligent people to discuss.
1. Intuition says they are a distraction and intuition then tells us that
this added distraction should increase accident rates...
2. But fact tells us this isn't happening (and never did).
3. Therefore, if we agree with point 1 and point 2, then it behooves us to
_understand_ why.
--
I don't expect anyone on this newsgroup to own the intelligence to
comprehend what I just said, even fewer than zero to agree with what I just
said - and that's OK. It just means I'm preaching to a blank stare.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5aj3p$117e$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 09:24:47 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 9 May 2022 08:24 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Intuition is a terrible thing when it's wrong.

BTW, it's the _same_ wrong intuition on the warped rotors, or the intuition
that if you pay more for an iPhone it _must_ be more powerful, etc.

Intuition is a terrible thing.

In the case of cellphone accidents, intuition is a terrible thing, since
the good data on accident rates shows _zero_ effect of cellphone ownership.
--
And those morons hoping to poke holes in my argument need to read my words
as rates are what I'm talking about, and not injuries (which are a
second-order effect), and I'm not talking use because there is no reliable
data on use so all we have that's reliable data is ownership percentages.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5ajhj$173k$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 09:32:09 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 9 May 2022 08:32 UTC

Xeno wrote:

>> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
>
> Distracted drivers using cellphones cause accidents.

Be careful when comprehending what I said, and not what you _think_ I said.

Rain causes accidents.
A good economy causes accidents.
Construction causes accidents.
Hot coffee causes accidents.
Crying babies cause accidents.
Driving while upset causes accidents.
Scratching your ass while driving causes accidents.
.... (list goes on forever)...

The question to ask is where in that list of infinite things that cause
accidents, is where you'd put cellphones, and, then... why didn't doing
that have _any_ effect whatsoever on the accident rate?

What you want if you are a politician or a lawyer or an insurance company
is to talk "accidents" (the more sensational the better).

But what you do if you are a scientist is talk accident rates.

If you want to talk accidents, then I can prove anything you want me to
prove simply because I can find a bacon cheeseburger which caused an
accident.

What you have to show is the _accident rate_ did "something" before,
during, and after the meteoric rise in cellphone ownership percentages.

And you can't.
Not without picking _only_ lawyer web sites, or insurance web sites, or
political bullshit web sites (particularly from police agencies wanting
more money), etc.

But try to find a _single_ USA accident rate set of reliable data that
covers the time period from _before_, during, and _after_ cellphone
ownership has skyrocketed that shows _any_ effect whatsoever of cellphone
ownership on accident rates.

Without that data, you're just guessing.
I don't know if I mentioned it yet but intuition is a terrible thing.
--
Note I don't talke use rates - not because it's not important - as it is -
but the problem is that useage is an unknown. We only have good data on
ownership percentages. Not on usage rates while driving.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 09:37:52 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 9 May 2022 08:37 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

>>> Marketing and politics takes advantage of people's emotions & intuition.
>>
>> Distracted drivers using cellphones cause accidents.
>
> Be careful when comprehending what I said, and not what you _think_ I said.

Bear in mind I made a mistake in what I said since it was off the cuff...

I looked back and I said "accidents" so please accept my apologies in that
I meant the accident rate, as _anything_ causes accidents (even a duck
waddling across the road or fiddling with the radio tuner, etc.).

I type Usenet messages off the cuff, so what I'm saying is nobody has ever
found in the _reliable_ data (not cherry picked lawyer web sites!) any
effect whatsoever on the accident rate before, during, and after cell phone
ownership percentages skyrocketed.

Nobody can discuss why until they agree with that fact.
If you disagree with that fact, all you have to do is provide the data.

But the only data you can find that meets your intuition is that from
insurance companies, legal companies, and government agencies that make
money of ticketing.

Surely if the accident rates did have an effect from cellphone ownership
going from zero to nearly 100% in the USA, then you should see something in
the accident rates, Right?

Notice may argument is very clear.
The accident rate in all the reliable data shows no effect whatsoever.

The question is why.
--
Note I'm well aware every moron on the planet _believes_ that cellphones
must have an effect on the accident rate - but I will ask them to prove it
without having to resort to the three types of skewed sites listed above.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5akde$1km3$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 09:47:00 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 9 May 2022 08:47 UTC

sms wrote:

> According to the the NHTSA, for 2019 in the U.S.:
>
> Total fatal crashes: 33,244
> Total fatalities in fatal crashes: 36,096
> Fatal crashes caused by distracted driving: 2,895 (9%)
> Total fatalities in fatal crashes caused by distracted driving: 3,142 (9%)
> Number of cellphone distraction-affected fatal crashes: 387 (13%)
> Number of cellphone distraction-affected fatalities: 422 (13%)
>
> So about 87% of distracted driving crashed and fatalities were caused by
> factors other than cell phones.
>
> So about 1.2% of fatal crashes (9% x 13%) were caused by drivers
> distracted by cell phones.
>
> The NHTSA mentions other distractions that make up the 87%, "eating and
> drinking, talking to people in your vehicle, fiddling with the stereo,
> entertainment or navigation system."
>
> <https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-distracted-driving>
>
> Using a phone while driving is a distraction even when it's being used
> hands-free.
>
> Not sure how to address the other 87% of distracted driving fatalities,
> or even the portion of the 13% caused by cell phone use since even
> hands-free doesn't solve the distracted driving problem. Texting while
> driving could be addressed via technology but it would have to
> distinguish between drivers and passengers. In the two vehicles we have
> owned with built in navigation systems, you can't enter addresses when
> the vehicle is moving, which is a real pain when a passenger could be
> the one using the system. There were workarounds but they were beyond
> the capability of most owners.

Steve is a politician, so I simply call him out on his cherry picked
bullshit above where I doubt Steve is smart enough to realize he used every
bullshitter's trick in the book to make his bullshit argument above.

Remember my main point which is intuition is a terrible thing indeed.
What matters are only the facts.

1. Nobody knows what distraction caused most accidents, as all those
"distracted driving" statistics are bullshit (ask Steve _how_ they gather
that data). HINT: I know how. Does Steve?

2. Almost _all_ accidents are caused by distracted driving, so 9% is
_clearly_ cherry-picked bullshit. It's likely almost 100% (barring
mechanical failures, for example or trees falling off of overpasses or
someone shooting someone etc.).

3. What matters is the accident rate in the USA before, during & after the
meteoric rise of cellphone ownership. HINT: I know that too. Does Steve?

4. Injuries are a second order effect so far removed from accidents that
_anyone_ how resorts to 'fatalities' is _always_ a bullshitter for a huge
number of reasons, not the least of which is that you can't have any
injuries if the accidents don't happen and more to the point that
fatalities are related to a huge number of factors, some of which
cellphones actually reduce (since they speed up ambulance service, for
example - as does traffic routing).

Be careful about anyone bringing fatalities into the discussion since
that's a clear mark of a bullshitter if we're talking about accident rates
given you can't have fatalities if you don't have the accident first.
--
What actually matters is the cellphone _use_ while driving, but NOBODY has
that statistic (and yes, I know how the NHTSA collects that data annually).

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:15:09 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 9 May 2022 09:15 UTC

Xeno wrote:

>> Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
>> happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.
>
> When I was doing a lot of brake repairs, and operating a brake lathe, I
> came across many warped rotors.

Remember, warp (as in potato chip) is _different_ from runout.
Warp will cause runout but so will a lot of other things cause runout.

> One is required, after all, to check
> discs and drums for wear, distortion, runout and the like.

Let's take those items one by one:
a. wear
b. distortion
c. runout
d. And the like

Which one of those are you considering "warp" because if you say "all of
them" then you're saying everything _is_ warp, and I'm not saying that.

I'm saying warp is something very specific, and it's _not_ runout (which is
something else altogether), and neither is it wear.

I don't know what you mean by "distortion" but that's the closest term you
used to what is warp (as in potato chip).

Warp is checked against known a flat surface, as you're well aware, where
warp, the way I'm using it, means one side (at least) of the rotor is not
laying flat on the test bench (the other side may or may not be parallel as
that's even worse if it's not equivalent).

We should assume solid rotors for simplicity, but I understand that common
vehicular rotors often have two discs separated by fins so there are a few
measurements we can make against a flat bench surface to measure warp.

> In my
> experience, there were two possible factors involved in warped discs -
> overheating of rotors and incorrect sequence tightening of wheel nuts.

Warp (as in potato chip) will certainly cause runout but runout itself
isn't warp.

> Or simply overtightening.

Runout isn't warp.

> And, no, they didn't come out of the factory
> already warped.

I only bring that up because morons always try to find holes in my
scientifically based arguments and that's one of the holes they are
desperate to find.

> The worst for warping through overtightening were the
> integral hub and disc rotor.

Runout isn't warp.

And besides, the simplest cure for what people "call" warp often is a
rebedding procedure which has _zero_ effect on the bolt torque and zero
effect on runout.

> The separate rotor tended to be more prone
> to warping through overheating.

Warp almost never happens and anyone who says it did never mesaured it.
Not even you Xeno.
Nobody does (except people who _understand_ what warp is, as in potato
chip).

You can't test warp on the vehicle (not reliably anyway).
It has to be tested on a known flat bench (or using known flat tools).

> Note too, a warped disc will evince
> different symptoms to a disc suffering pad deposition. \\

Holy Shit. Of course. A truly warped rotor (as in potato chip) is fucked up
beyond belief. No amount of pad rebedding will solve a warped rotor (as in
potato chip).

Almost nobody could machine a warped rotor (as in potato chip) back to
perfection simply because the amount of metal needed isn't going to be
there if the warp (as in potato chip) is appreciable.

> The first car I
> owned that suffered from disc warping was a MkII 240 Ford Cortina but I
> drove that thing like a rally car back in the days.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on the warp (as in potato chip) since
there is zero chance that you measured it (using the proper tools for warp,
which, as you well know, requires a known straight tool).

>>
>> Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to reach
>> in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking about.
>
> I managed to reach it on one car I owned back in the early days of disc
> brakes. Admittedly, the rotor was sub par on the thickness hence a
> reduced heat capacity. It sure melted at the periphery though and was
> showing signs of heat stress all over - it was black and blue. ;-)

I doubt it. Rotors are made of a variety of steels (e.g., motorcycle rotors
are often stainless steel) but even for the worst quality cast iron rotors,
look up the temperature it takes to melt them.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But I doubt it happens for normal passenger
vehicles (I'm not talking space shuttle stuff or fighter plane stuff).

Look it up.

> Who remembers actual numbers from a couple of decades or more back? I
> used to measure runout, thickness variation, taper, etc, compare to
> specs, then machine.

Yes. I know. But did you measure warp (as in potato chip)?

You can't measure warp without a known straight surface to compare against.
A mic won't measure warp.
A dial gauge won't measure warp (unless it's a special setup).

HINT: I've never seen anyone who did who said their rotors warped when what
really happened was something else (e.g., runout or pad deposition).

> If they wouldn't clean up and still remain within
> specs, they would be replaced, and that could be determined from the
> measurements.

I seriously doubt an actual warp (as in potato chip) could be machined, but
if it's only slight, then maybe, but what fool would want rotors that were
actually warped (as in potato chip) even after they were machined?

> This was my preferred brake lathe;
> https://www.ammcobrake.com/ammco-brake-lathe-model-4000b
>
> Though not that current model.

If the rotor was truly warped (as in potato chip), I would think the only
feasible solution is to junk it. I'm sure some 'can' be machined to spec,
but I, for one, wouldn't want that rotor on my passenger vehicle.

> You need to be very careful these days as some marques feature disc
> rotors that cannot be machined. The rotor is considered a disposable
> item just as much as the disc pads are. It's the only way by which the
> manufacturers can get the friction coefficients up to acceptable levels.

Did you machine stainless steel rotors?
--
Bear in mind I speak facts first, and then I make assessments based on
those facts. You can't argue with assessments until you agree on the facts
first (or disagree - and then we work on the facts).

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jds5vvF8regU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 19:42:20 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5am27$d8o$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Mon, 9 May 2022 09:42 UTC

On 9/5/2022 7:15 pm, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> Regarding brake rotor warp (as in "potato chip"), that (almost) never
>>> happens on rotors that didn't come out of the factory already warped.
>>
>> When I was doing a lot of brake repairs, and operating a brake lathe,
>> I came across many warped rotors.
>
> Remember, warp (as in potato chip) is _different_ from runout.
> Warp will cause runout but so will a lot of other things cause runout.
>
>> One is required, after all, to check discs and drums for wear,
>> distortion, runout and the like.
>
> Let's take those items one by one:
> a. wear
> b. distortion
> c. runout
> d. And the like
>
> Which one of those are you considering "warp" because if you say "all of
> them" then you're saying everything _is_ warp, and I'm not saying that.
>
> I'm saying warp is something very specific, and it's _not_ runout (which is
> something else altogether), and neither is it wear.
>
> I don't know what you mean by "distortion" but that's the closest term you
> used to what is warp (as in potato chip).
>
> Warp is checked against known a flat surface, as you're well aware, where
> warp, the way I'm using it, means one side (at least) of the rotor is not
> laying flat on the test bench (the other side may or may not be parallel as
> that's even worse if it's not equivalent).
>
> We should assume solid rotors for simplicity, but I understand that common
> vehicular rotors often have two discs separated by fins so there are a few
> measurements we can make against a flat bench surface to measure warp.
>
>> In my experience, there were two possible factors involved in warped
>> discs - overheating of rotors and incorrect sequence tightening of
>> wheel nuts.
>
> Warp (as in potato chip) will certainly cause runout but runout itself
> isn't warp.
>
>> Or simply overtightening.
>
> Runout isn't warp.
>
>> And, no, they didn't come out of the factory already warped.
>
> I only bring that up because morons always try to find holes in my
> scientifically based arguments and that's one of the holes they are
> desperate to find.
>
>> The worst for warping through overtightening were the integral hub and
>> disc rotor.
>
> Runout isn't warp.
>
> And besides, the simplest cure for what people "call" warp often is a
> rebedding procedure which has _zero_ effect on the bolt torque and zero
> effect on runout.
>
>> The separate rotor tended to be more prone to warping through
>> overheating.
>
> Warp almost never happens and anyone who says it did never mesaured it.
> Not even you Xeno.
> Nobody does (except people who _understand_ what warp is, as in potato
> chip).
>
> You can't test warp on the vehicle (not reliably anyway).
> It has to be tested on a known flat bench (or using known flat tools).

Or mounted on a brake lathe
>
>> Note too, a warped disc will evince different symptoms to a disc
>> suffering pad deposition. \\
>
> Holy Shit. Of course. A truly warped rotor (as in potato chip) is fucked up
> beyond belief. No amount of pad rebedding will solve a warped rotor (as in
> potato chip).

I wasn't saying anything about rebedding at all.
>
> Almost nobody could machine a warped rotor (as in potato chip) back to
> perfection simply because the amount of metal needed isn't going to be

Depends on the amount of warp and whether the rotor still meets minimum
specs afterwards. It only takes a very small amount of warp for the
driver to be able to sense it.

> there if the warp (as in potato chip) is appreciable.
>> The first car I owned that suffered from disc warping was a MkII 240
>> Ford Cortina but I drove that thing like a rally car back in the days.
>
> I'm going to have to call bullshit on the warp (as in potato chip) since
> there is zero chance that you measured it (using the proper tools for warp,
> which, as you well know, requires a known straight tool).

The car showed *symptoms* of warp, the rotors, when measured showed
*evidence* of warp. I drove the car, I felt the symptoms, I measured the
rotor warp.
>
>>>
>>> Regarding temperatures, the _melting_ point is (almost) impossible to
>>> reach
>>> in braking operations given the type of vehicles we're all talking
>>> about.
>>
>> I managed to reach it on one car I owned back in the early days of
>> disc brakes. Admittedly, the rotor was sub par on the thickness hence
>> a reduced heat capacity. It sure melted at the periphery though and
>> was showing signs of heat stress all over - it was black and blue.  ;-)
>
> I doubt it. Rotors are made of a variety of steels (e.g., motorcycle rotors

I don't, I saw the evidence.

> are often stainless steel) but even for the worst quality cast iron rotors,
> look up the temperature it takes to melt them.

Automotive rotors were pretty much all cast iron back in the era
concerned. And the rotor did *melt* at the periphery, as I stated. It
had been damn hot all over but the periphery was clearly melted.

> I'm not saying it's impossible. But I doubt it happens for normal passenger
> vehicles (I'm not talking space shuttle stuff or fighter plane stuff).

Nor am I. I wasn't and never have been an aviation mechanic.
>
> Look it up.

No need, I saw the evidence directly.
>
>> Who remembers actual numbers from a couple of decades or more back? I
>> used to measure runout, thickness variation, taper, etc, compare to
>> specs, then machine.
>
> Yes. I know. But did you measure warp (as in potato chip)?

Yes, I did, with a dial indicator. Definitely warp.
>
> You can't measure warp without a known straight surface to compare against.
> A mic won't measure warp.
> A dial gauge won't measure warp (unless it's a special setup).

It was a special setup - a brake lathe. Runout and warp shows up very
clearly when the hub and rotor assembly is correctly mounted.
>
> HINT: I've never seen anyone who did who said their rotors warped when what
> really happened was something else (e.g., runout or pad deposition).

Depending on the site, runout can be a symptom of warp. You verify it as
warp by checking both sides.
>
>> If they wouldn't clean up and still remain within specs, they would be
>> replaced, and that could be determined from the measurements.
>
> I seriously doubt an actual warp (as in potato chip) could be machined, but
> if it's only slight, then maybe, but what fool would want rotors that were
> actually warped (as in potato chip) even after they were machined?

Well, these days the rule is discard and renew, don't machine.
Procedures have changed.
>
>> This was my preferred brake lathe;
>> https://www.ammcobrake.com/ammco-brake-lathe-model-4000b
>>
>> Though not that current model.
>
> If the rotor was truly warped (as in potato chip), I would think the only
> feasible solution is to junk it. I'm sure some 'can' be machined to spec,
> but I, for one, wouldn't want that rotor on my passenger vehicle.
>
>> You need to be very careful these days as some marques feature disc
>> rotors that cannot be machined. The rotor is considered a disposable
>> item just as much as the disc pads are. It's the only way by which the
>> manufacturers can get the friction coefficients up to acceptable levels.
>
> Did you machine stainless steel rotors?

Nope. never saw a stainless steel rotor when I was involved in brakes.
All seemed to have been cast iron of varying grades. That said, I didn't
work on exotic cars nor did I work on motorcycles or aircraft. YMMV.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

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