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computers / comp.mobile.android / Empiricism trumps idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

SubjectAuthor
* re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovVanguardLH
|`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
| `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |    `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | || `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||  +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexKen Olson
|  | | ||   |    | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | ||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   |    | |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |    | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |    |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   |      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |       `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |        `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |         `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |          `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |           `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |            `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |             `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |              `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||       `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |  | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  |  `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | |  |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |     |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    | `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli

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Empiricism trumps idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h3na$2d6$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32156&group=comp.mobile.android#32156

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Empiricism trumps idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re:
"Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add
Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 12:44:42 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 19:44 UTC

On 2022-05-11 3:32 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> I agree that rotors don't warp "as in a potato chip."
>> Rotors do warp "as in a warped rotor."
>
> Assuming you actually believe that, allow me to explain why intuition is a
> terrible thing if people trust their own intuition far more than they do
> facts. Me? I don't trust my intuition at all. I trust in facts.
>
> Facts from reliable sources, like this PDF from Carroll Smith:
> *The 'Warped' Brake Disc & Other Myths of the Braking System*
> ���<https://centricparts.com/getmedia/bd69395a-b65c-481d-93f7-b26b1bd0638d/Centric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf>

Empiricism:

<https://youtu.be/fFY2MPylrS4>

See the big dark patch as that rotor is slowly being turned on the brake
lathe?

That's warp.

As is this:

<https://youtu.be/eEpYifYWV5k?t=250>

Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h3ra$2d6$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32157&group=comp.mobile.android#32157

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes
(was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to
add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 12:46:50 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 19:46 UTC

On 2022-05-11 12:22 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> Is "warp" the right word to use for a rotor (disc) that remains as a
>>> flat plane but with a surface that is not uniformly smooth over the
>>
>> Short answer - no.
>
> Longer answer, verbatim... *Brake Rotors Warp From Heat -- Myth Busted*
> <https://www.hansonsubaru.com/service/information/brake-myths.htm>
>
> 5. Brake Rotors Warp From Heat -- Myth Busted
> Damaged brake rotors can cause your car to shudder and shake under braking,
> and that's often attributed to "warped" brake rotors. The suggestion goes,
> under intense, emergency, both-feet-on-the-pedal-type braking, the brakes
> get so hot that the brake rotor warps and deforms. Since it's not perfectly
> flat anymore, it causes your car to shake when you engage the brakes.
>
> But that's a myth -- there's simply no way that a brake rotor can get hot
> enough to warp or deform on an ordinary passenger car. However, this idea
> of a 'warped' rotor is commonly used in reference to the surface that the
> brake pads contact. This surface can become uneven and this is most
> commonly caused by heat from emergency or aggressive braking. As the brake
> pads are held against an uneven rotor surface, the vehicle may shake or
> shudder while stopping or you may notice that your brake pedal has
> something of a bounce to it.
>
> So, while it's usually not technically accurate to say that a brake rotor
> is warped, that term is still used to indicate that the surface of your
> brake rotors is not even.

Empiricism:

<https://youtu.be/fFY2MPylrS4>

See the big dark patch as that rotor is slowly being turned on the brake
lathe?

That's warp.

As is this:

<https://youtu.be/eEpYifYWV5k?t=250>

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h475$5bd$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32158&group=comp.mobile.android#32158

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 12:53:09 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 19:53 UTC

On 2022-05-11 11:35 a.m., Vic Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 12:48:10 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> Which brings me to shudder, shake, judder, and vibrate in terms of braking.
>> *Brake Judder In Detail* by Jurid (who makes my OEM BMW rear brake pads)
>> <https://www.jurid.com/technical-support/light-vehicles/technical-tips/brake-judder.html>
>> "Brake judder is the vibration felt through the steering wheel
>> and suspension when the brakes are applied at certain speeds
>> and pressures. It can vary from a barely noticeable vibration
>> to a violent judder - experienced either through the brake
>> pedal or steering wheel."
>>
> The author quoted above says - in the same article - "The excessive heat from the pads can
> cause the discs to overheat, resulting in disc warping."
>
>> If that's "judder", then what's "shudder"?
>> *Brake Shudder: Why Your Car Vibrates When You Brake*
>> <https://www.sundevilauto.com/brake-shudder-why-your-car-vibrates-when-you-brake/>
>> "You step on the brake pedal and you feel a vibration coming
>> from the brake pedal or worse, through the steering wheel.
>> You hold on tight to the steering wheel as you come to a stop.
>> You've just experienced brake shudder, also known as brake judder."
>>
> This author also says in the same article, "Brake rotors become warped over time from the
> heat generated from the friction produced when braking."
>
>> And then what's "shake" while braking?
>> *Why does my car shake when I brake?*
>> <https://www.tiresplus.com/blog/brakes/car-shakes-when-i-brake/>
>> Where at least this guy put "warped rotors" in quotes. :)
>>
> Yes, "If one or more of your brake rotors becomes 'warped,' you might experience that
> dreaded vibration when you brake."
>>
>> Me? I don't trust my intuition more than I trust facts to the contrary.
>
> You'll probably find this study interesting:
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-012-0397-7#article-info
> Let me know what you think of it.

I guarantee Arlen will find some reason why he understands the subject
better than the authors.

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes
(was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to
add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 12:58:18 -0700
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 19:58 UTC

On 2022-05-09 8:39 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> You can't test warp on the vehicle (not reliably anyway).
>>> It has to be tested on a known flat bench (or using known flat tools).
>>
>> Or mounted on a brake lathe
>
> Agreed. All you need is a long flat edge and feeler gauges as a minimum.
>
> I'm all about facts. I'll change my mind in a split second if that's
> where the facts lead.
>
> Let's look at the facts in this discussion between two adults on Usenet.
>
> My point is that nobody who says warp (as in potato chip) measures that
> warp (as in potato chip), where I already know that warp (as in potato
> chip) isn't what happens when a brake rotor is subject to intense heating &
> cooling cycles.
> "High quality brake rotors that pass SAE J2928 Brake Rotor Thermal
>  Cracking Procedure for Vehicles below 4,540 kg GVWR proves
>  they don't warp"
>
> As I said, intuition is a terrible thing indeed.
> "Calling it brake rotor warp demonstrates a complete misunderstanding
>  of the metallurgy and the braking process"
>
>> I wasn't saying anything about rebedding at all.
>
> OK. But the fact that rebedding works sometimes means that what it fixed
> wasn't warp (as in potato chip). What it fixed wasn't runout either.
>
> What it fixed is the only thing it _could_ fix, which is deposit buildup.
>
> Intuition is a terrible thing indeed.
> "The brake pads and rotors in a street vehicle can't possibly  generate
> enough heat to warp a brake rotor."
>
>>> Almost nobody could machine a warped rotor (as in potato chip) back to
>>> perfection simply because the amount of metal needed isn't going to be
>>
>> Depends on the amount of warp and whether the rotor still meets
>> minimum specs afterwards. It only takes a very small amount of warp
>> for the driver to be able to sense it.
>
> Agreed.
> However, any rotor that was subject to enough heat to truly warp it (as in
> potato chip) was subject to _tremendous_ heat - almost impossible to attain
> in a passenger vehicle (again, I'm not talking about the space shuttle
> here).
> "The heating and cooling that people refer to when discussing  'warped
> brake rotors' would cause cracking, not warping."
>
> There are half a dozen materials rotors are made of though, so we'd have to
> look up the melting point of each of them to be more precise about melting.
> 1. cast iron
> 2. steel
> 3. stainless steel
> 4. laminated steel
> 5. high carbon iron (e.g., Sparta CX3.5)
> 6. ceramic
>
>> The car showed *symptoms* of warp, the rotors, when measured showed
>> *evidence* of warp. I drove the car, I felt the symptoms, I measured
>> the rotor warp.
>
> I'll leave it at that since I respect your experience.
>
> Read this please, though (it's just one random hit of many of course):
> *What causes warped brake rotors?*
> <https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
> "brake rotors DO NOT WARP from  normal driving or even race track use.
>  Yes, you read that correctly. A typical street vehicle can't possibly
>  generate enough heat to warp a brake rotor."
>
> All the quotes in this one post are from that reference, but I can easily
> find more because I know what I know and most people are intuitive.
>
> Did I mention yet that intuition is a terrible thing?
>
>>> I doubt it. Rotors are made of a variety of steels (e.g., motorcycle
>>> rotors
>>
>> I don't, I saw the evidence.
>
> Again, I respect your experience.
> However, you have to respect my knowledge that _reliable_ sources say
> otherwise and that runout isn't warp (as in potato chip) and that if
> rebedding worked, it wasn't warp (as in potato chip) after all.
> "Even if you're traveling straight down the side of a mountain with your
> brakes applied the entire way. Your brake pads will fade and start to
> disintegrate long before you come close to heating your rotors enough to
> soften them to the point where they could possibly warp"
>
> I even doubt machining could fix any appreciable warp (as in potato
> chip), and even if it did, I wouldn't want any rotors from _that_ shop. :)
> "In addition, if your brake system is working properly, it's applying
> equal pressure to both sides of the rotor which means BOTH SIDES are
> heating at the same rate. To warp a brake rotor, you must have more heat
> on one side of the rotor than the other."
>
>>> are often stainless steel) but even for the worst quality cast iron
>>> rotors,
>>> look up the temperature it takes to melt them.
>>
>> Automotive rotors were pretty much all cast iron back in the era
>> concerned. And the rotor did *melt* at the periphery, as I stated. It
>> had been damn hot all over but the periphery was clearly melted.
>
> I'm not going to argue with you on that as cast iron has a relatively low
> melting point where our question is can a rotor typically get to that point
> on a passenger vehicle whose owner suspects his rotor warped (as in potato
> chip).
>
> "To get cast iron hot enough to soften the metal you'd need to generate
>  almost 2,300�F range. There isn't a factory stock automotive brake
>  system in the world that's capable of generating that kind of heat.
>  In fact, you would experience brake pad fade, pad disintegration,
>  brake fluid boiling and rotor discoloration long before you  reached
> 1,000�F."
>
>>> I'm not saying it's impossible. But I doubt it happens for normal
>>> passenger
>>> vehicles (I'm not talking space shuttle stuff or fighter plane stuff).
>>
>> Nor am I. I wasn't and never have been an aviation mechanic.
>
> The only thing I harp on is I've never met a person who claimed it was
> "warp" (as in potato chip) who actually measured it, and, worse, the remedy
> often is something (like rebedding) which couldn't possibly have fixed warp
> (as in potato chip).
>
> Worse than even that, is all the reliable sources say passenger vehicle
> rotors can't warp (as in potato chip) simply because brakes can't generate
> enough heat.
>
>>> Look it up.
>>
>> No need, I saw the evidence directly.
>
> I knew what I'd find in brake warp when I just looked it up as I did my
> research long ago (just as I did with cellphone caused accident rates).
>
> Most people work solely on intuition.
> Humans have the intuition of evolved monkeys.
>
> Intuition serves humans well... sometimes.
> But not always.
>
> Read this _one_ reference for a starting point on fixing that intuition.
> <https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
>
> If you don't like it, find another (there are plenty).
>
>>> Yes. I know. But did you measure warp (as in potato chip)?
>>
>> Yes, I did, with a dial indicator. Definitely warp.
>
> "To pass the J2928 rotor test, rotors must withstand at least  150 heat
> cycles on a dynamometer without cracking or showing  any structural or
> dimensional failure. "
>
>>> You can't measure warp without a known straight surface to compare
>>> against.
>>> A mic won't measure warp.
>>> A dial gauge won't measure warp (unless it's a special setup).
>>
>> It was a special setup - a brake lathe. Runout and warp shows up very
>> clearly when the hub and rotor assembly is correctly mounted.
>
> Note that the link I am giving you has information from the brake rotor
> manufacturers who themselves claim that their rotors can't warp (as in
> potato chip) in passenger vehicles under _any_ circumstances.
>
> Raybestos video titled "Rotors Can't Warp":
> <https://youtu.be/LVRVe1cEBDI>
>
>>> HINT: I've never seen anyone who did who said their rotors warped
>>> when what
>>> really happened was something else (e.g., runout or pad deposition).
>>
>> Depending on the site, runout can be a symptom of warp. You verify it
>> as warp by checking both sides.
>
> I'm not going to harp on the issue other than to repeat my salient points.
> a. Rotors don't warp (as in potato chip) in passenger vehicles. Period.
> b. People who _say_ they did, didn't measure warp (as in potato chip).
> c. The temperatures needed are unattainable in passenger vehicles.
>
>>>> If they wouldn't clean up and still remain within specs, they would
>>>> be replaced, and that could be determined from the measurements.
>>>
>>> I seriously doubt an actual warp (as in potato chip) could be
>>> machined, but
>>> if it's only slight, then maybe, but what fool would want rotors that
>>> were
>>> actually warped (as in potato chip) even after they were machined?
>>
>> Well, these days the rule is discard and renew, don't machine.
>> Procedures have changed.
>
> OK. But I can _easily_ find industry references that say rotors can't warp
> (as in potato chip) simply because they are designed _not_ to warp (as in
> potato chip), and, because the temperatures to cause warp (as in potato
> chip) are unattainable.


Click here to read the complete article
Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes
(was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to
add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:01:14 -0700
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:01 UTC

On 2022-05-09 6:30 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> sms wrote:
>
>> But the mass of thick rotors negatively affected fuel economy so much
>> thinner rotors began to be used, and they usually can't be resurfaced
>> even once, they have to be replaced at the same time the brake pads
>> are replaced.
>
> Bullshit.
> The time to replace rotors is when they no longer meet the specs, and there
> are a few specs that they need to meet (cracks, thickness, gouges, etc.),
> but the main spec is the thickness.
>
> I've seen many people say the bullshit you say but the fact is you measure
> them, like Xeno and I do, and if they're within specs, you keep them.
>
> It doesn't matter how many brake pads you replaced.
>
>> They also warp much easier. It also actually became not that uncommon
>> to replace warped rotors, but not the pads, since the pads were fine.
>
> More bullshit.
>
> Read this before you bullshit us please.
> <https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
>
> It's impossible for rotors to warp (as in potato chip), and everyone who
> says they do, has _never_ measured it, least of all you, Steve.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiuwzN2mQuA&t=122s>

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 21:16:38 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:16 UTC

NY wrote:

> I saw a demonstration in a TV program(me) about physics in the early 1980s,
> in which a car was repeatedly braked from high speed (and then accelerated
> back up to speed) over a very short time. A camera mounted so it could see
> one of the front discs showed the disc was glowing cherry red after n
> iterations (for unknown n!). They were demonstrating the conversion of
> kinetic energy into heat.

There's no doubt rotors get hot during braking.
That's what friction is all about.

Black body radiation is well studied, which is what you were seeing.
Everything glows "red" (but usually in the infrared which our eyes can't
easily see but interestingly, digital cameras generally see it better).

Try this:
a. Point a TV remote at your face and click the button.
b. Point a TV remote at your phone and look at the screen.

See any difference?

BTW, FUN fact. Do you know _why_ friction works?
HINT: Why don't we fall thru the earth when we stand on it?
Doublehint: It's not what most people intuit it to be.
Triplehint: Rutherford Model of the atom (it's almost all empty space).

> I wonder what effect that high temperature had on the pads once they were
> red hot. Would you want to ride in that car afterwards - would the pads have
> been made less effective? How hot do discs get if you descend a long hill
> (let's say a mile long, average 1:4 aka 25%) using brakes only. My wife
> remembers a friend descending such a hill (Porlock Hill in Devon, England)
> in a motor caravan which may have had a mixture of discs and drums. By the
> end of the hill, there was smoke coming from the wheels (brake pads,
> presumably) - the driver learned an important lesson: to engage a low gear
> on a long steep hill so there is a bit of transmission braking to supplement
> the normal friction braking.

*Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked*
<https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/05/19/6-biggest-brake-rotor-myths-debunked/>
Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp.
Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the
movie Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about
brake-rotor "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because,
in layman's terms, it makes sense.

But then real life happens and this faulty explanation doesn't
hold up to scientific scrutiny.

What is often described as "warping" is actually the presence of
two separate phenomena that can happen in isolation or in combination
with each other, and neither has anything to do with warping.
These phenomena are:
a. Brake torque variation (BTV), and
b. Disc thickness variation (DTV)

BTV is a variation of torque across the rotor's face which causes
the rotor to slip and catch as the brake caliper is engaged.
The differences in torque across the rotor may be caused by
inconsistencies in the rotor's finish or metallurgy.

BTV can be caused by uneven deposits of friction material.
This might not cause a pulsation in pedal feel, but it will cause
vehicle judder or vibration.

DTV, on the other hand, is the result of measuring the thickness
of the rotor surface in multiple spots around the rotor.
DTV measurement can be found simply by finding the difference
between the thickest part of the rotor from the thinnest.

As the rotor's variable thicknesses pass through the restricted
caliper, the piston moves in and out, causing pulsations in
the brake pedal while stopping."

> Incidentally, I can vouch for the fact that if the pads wear through to the
> mounting studs and these start to score the discs, the braking effect is a
> lot less. (Yikes!) My car had passed its MOT test (annual safety test in the
> UK for all vehicles once they reach 3 years old) a few months earlier, and
> braking was acceptable at that time. And nothing had been picked up when the
> car was serviced. And yet the pads wore through to the studs. The first I
> knew was a loud scraping metal-on-metal noise and the car didn't brake as
> effectively as it should. I drove very cautiously to the nearest garage that
> fitted brakes and got them to replace the relevant pads and discs. I *think*
> it may have been only the front brakes that were affected, so I had working
> rear brakes. I don't like to think what would have happened if all four
> brakes had worn through at the same time. It turned out that the pads
> *should* have triggered a warning light (wires embedded in the pads making
> contact with the disc) before the pads wore down to the studs, but the
> sensor wire had corroded. The warning bulb itself was working - it still
> came on briefly as part of the self-test whenever the ignition is first
> turned on.

*The myth of warped brake discs*
<https://alconkits.com/technical-info/brake-tech/56-the-myth-of-warped-brake-discs>
"Have you ever heard someone say they had warped brake discs?
Typically someone had the discs resurfaced to cure the problem
and after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration came back.
In almost every case, this problem is not caused by a warped discs,
but that the brake pad material transferred unevenly to the surface
of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation
or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures."

> I was rather horrified than the brakes had got to that state without
> anything being picked up. Nowadays I always explicitly ask a garage to check
> the discs and pads when my car is being serviced - because pad thickness is
> not an easy thing to check yourself unless you know what to look for - and
> unless you have a ramp, it means taking each wheel off in turn.

*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
"Myths take hold �because either A) they seem completely logical or
B) they are so often repeated that they just become common knowledge.
The warped rotor myth is a little bit of both. A rotor that
contributed to a pulsation condition certainly appears 'warped.'
Plus, everyone says it - even technicians that know the rotor isn�t
really warped will say it as shorthand. Rotors are cast in extreme heat
at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking
situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar
application of extreme heat, which is impossible."

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h5jq$448$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 21:17:21 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:17 UTC

News wrote:

> Hondas... improper lug torquing plus thin-ish rotors led to warping.

Everybody wants a simple answer, but as Xeno & Vic Smith are showing, a
simple answer isn't always going to be the answer to your issue.

In your case, improper torquing certainly can cause runout, as everyone
here has been saying; however while warp causes runout, runout doesn't
cause warp, so we have to be careful what we attempt to intuit.

Almost nothing about what people call 'warp' is intuitive bearing in mind
that almost all of this "unexplained warp" is simply pad buildup...
"As little as 0.0004 inch can be felt through the pedal,
and 0.001 inch can be downright annoying"
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>

See also:
*Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?*
<https://blog.fcpeuro.com/warped-brake-rotors-vibrating-reality-or-internet-myth>
"Traditionally, this was blamed on warped rotors, and the prescription
was to either get the rotors machined or to replace the rotors.

Technically this wasn't wrong, but it's not completely right either.

To understand what is going on, lets examine how the brake pads
and rotors interact. It's not as simple as it seems on the surface,
and relies on complex interaction between friction materials.

Technically yes, the rotor is warped because the buildup of pad deposits
is a few thousandths of an inch thick. To restore proper smooth braking
performance, the uneven deposits need to be removed, and a fresh uniform
layer of friction material needs to be laid down."

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h5ks$4sd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 21:17:54 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:17 UTC

Vic Smith wrote:

> After a period of severe braking I unintentionally drove
> though a long, deep puddle. Went from a smoothly braking car to a shuddering
> beast at the next stoplight.

Nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence but here is what the pros say.

*Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth*
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>
"It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause
of the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup
of brake pad material on the rotor itself. As little as 0.0004 inch
can be felt through the pedal & 0.001 inch can be downright annoying"

*Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?*
<https://blog.fcpeuro.com/warped-brake-rotors-vibrating-reality-or-internet-myth>
"Traditionally, this was blamed on warped rotors, and the prescription
was to either get the rotors machined or to replace the rotors.

Technically this wasn't wrong, but it's not completely right either.

To understand what is going on, lets examine how the brake pads
and rotors interact. It's not as simple as it seems on the surface,
and relies on complex interaction between friction materials.

Technically yes, the rotor is warped because the buildup of pad deposits
is a few thousandths of an inch thick. To restore proper smooth braking
performance, the uneven deposits need to be removed, and a fresh uniform
layer of friction material needs to be laid down."

*Stop the 'Warped' Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
"Myths take hold �because either A) they seem completely logical or
B) they are so often repeated that they just become common knowledge.
The warped rotor myth is a little bit of both. A rotor that
contributed to a pulsation condition certainly appears 'warped.'
Plus, everyone says it - even technicians that know the rotor isn�t
really warped will say it as shorthand. Rotors are cast in extreme heat
at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking
situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar
application of extreme heat, which is impossible."

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h5o4$6be$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 21:19:39 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:19 UTC

sms wrote:

> Unfortunately, just replacing the warped rotors with the same OEM rotors
> is not a long-term fix, the problem will come back.

The "problem" most of the time is the driver's own foot, so, yeah.
It will come back.

It will continue to come back until the driver learns that warped rotors
(as in potato chip) are a myth.

> Often the pads were fine but the
> vehicle was shuddering while braking due to the warped rotors.

Verbatim...

*Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked*
<https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/05/19/6-biggest-brake-rotor-myths-debunked/>
Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp.
Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the
movie Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about
brake-rotor "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because,
in layman's terms, it makes sense.

But then real life happens and this faulty explanation doesn't
hold up to scientific scrutiny.

What is often described as "warping" is actually the presence of
two separate phenomena that can happen in isolation or in combination
with each other, and neither has anything to do with warping.
These phenomena are:
a. Brake torque variation (BTV), and
b. Disc thickness variation (DTV)

BTV is a variation of torque across the rotor's face which causes
the rotor to slip and catch as the brake caliper is engaged.
The differences in torque across the rotor may be caused by
inconsistencies in the rotor's finish or metallurgy.

BTV can be caused by uneven deposits of friction material.
This might not cause a pulsation in pedal feel, but it will cause
vehicle judder or vibration.

DTV, on the other hand, is the result of measuring the thickness
of the rotor surface in multiple spots around the rotor.
DTV measurement can be found simply by finding the difference
between the thickest part of the rotor from the thinnest.

As the rotor's variable thicknesses pass through the restricted
caliper, the piston moves in and out, causing pulsations in
the brake pedal while stopping."

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h6p5$oq8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:36:51 -0700
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:36 UTC

On 2022-05-11 1:16 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> NY wrote:
>
>> I saw a demonstration in a TV program(me) about physics in the early
>> 1980s, in which a car was repeatedly braked from high speed (and then
>> accelerated back up to speed) over a very short time. A camera mounted
>> so it could see one of the front discs showed the disc was glowing
>> cherry red after n iterations (for unknown n!). They were
>> demonstrating the conversion of kinetic energy into heat.
>
> There's no doubt rotors get hot during braking.
> That's what friction is all about.
>
> Black body radiation is well studied, which is what you were seeing.
> Everything glows "red" (but usually in the infrared which our eyes can't
> easily see but interestingly, digital cameras generally see it better).

Only if you redefine "red" to mean "infrared"...

>
> Try this:
> a. Point a TV remote at your face and click the button.
> b. Point a TV remote at your phone and look at the screen.
>
> See any difference?
>
> BTW, FUN fact. Do you know _why_ friction works?
> HINT: Why don't we fall thru the earth when we stand on it?
> Doublehint: It's not what most people intuit it to be.
> Triplehint: Rutherford Model of the atom (it's almost all empty space).
>
>> I wonder what effect that high temperature had on the pads once they
>> were red hot. Would you want to ride in that car afterwards - would
>> the pads have been made less effective? How hot do discs get if you
>> descend a long hill (let's say a mile long, average 1:4 aka 25%) using
>> brakes only. My wife remembers a friend descending such a hill
>> (Porlock Hill in Devon, England) in a motor caravan which may have had
>> a mixture of discs and drums. By the end of the hill, there was smoke
>> coming from the wheels (brake pads, presumably) - the driver learned
>> an important lesson: to engage a low gear on a long steep hill so
>> there is a bit of transmission braking to supplement the normal
>> friction braking.
>
> *Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked*
> <https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/05/19/6-biggest-brake-rotor-myths-debunked/>
>
> Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp.
> Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the movie
> Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about brake-rotor
> "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because, in layman's
> terms, it makes sense.

Brake rotors DO warp.

See all my previous posts with actual video of actual warped rotors.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:38:02 -0700
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:38 UTC

On 2022-05-11 1:17 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> After a period of severe braking I unintentionally drove
>> though a long, deep puddle.  Went from a smoothly braking car to a
>> shuddering
>> beast at the next stoplight.
>
> Nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence but here is what the pros say.
>
> *Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth*
> <https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>
> "It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause  of
> the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup  of brake
> pad material on the rotor itself.  As little as 0.0004 inch  can be felt
> through the pedal & 0.001 inch can be downright annoying"
> *Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?*
> <https://blog.fcpeuro.com/warped-brake-rotors-vibrating-reality-or-internet-myth>

"Exceedingly rare" means that it DOES happen...

....contrary to your "I'm all about the facts" statements.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
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Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:38:31 -0700
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:38 UTC

On 2022-05-11 1:19 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> sms wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, just replacing the warped rotors with the same OEM
>> rotors is not a long-term fix, the problem will come back.
>
> The "problem" most of the time is the driver's own foot, so, yeah.
> It will come back.
> It will continue to come back until the driver learns that warped rotors
> (as in potato chip) are a myth.

Your own sources disagree.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h7ga$t6k$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 21:49:37 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:49 UTC

Vic Smith wrote:

> The author quoted above says - in the same article - "The excessive heat from the pads can
> cause the discs to overheat, resulting in disc warping."

We've had this discussion many times, where I'm well aware that there is
conflicting information even in any one given article on the subject.

What we have is a difference in terminology and measurement skills.

For example:
*The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors*
<https://trade.mechanic.com.au/news/solved-the-mystery-of-warped-brake-rotors>
"Contrary to popular belief, brake rotors, and especially brake rotors
supplied by a reputable manufacturer such as DBA don't warp, no matter
how aggressively a vehicle is driven. Yet, as we know, brake pedal
pulsation caused by out-of-true brake rotors is a fairly common problem
that is almost invariably attributed to warped rotors, which is almost
invariably confirmed by excessive amounts of rotor run out that is easy
to "prove" with a dial gauge."

*Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth*
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>
"It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause
of the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup
of brake pad material on the rotor itself."

The conflicting information is why you heard me say a few times in the
beginning that I wasn't saying it can't happen, but that it doesn't.
[I'm well aware some reliable references say it can't happen also.]

Given of the 100% of people who _say_ their rotors warped, 0% of them
actually measured it (and probably only 10% would know how), it's not warp.

> You'll probably find this study interesting:
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-012-0397-7#article-info
> Let me know what you think of it.

Nice catch. Right down my line.

*The Effect of Residual Stress on the Distortion of Gray Iron Brake Disks*
<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-012-0397-7#article-info>

From the first two sentences, it appears they studied:
a. "thermal distortion"
b. of "gray iron brake disks"
c. due to "residual stress"
d. on both a heat-treated & non-heat-treated gray iron disk (singular)
e. measured by "neutron scattering"
f. and by "dynamometer tests" to measure "disk runout" during braking
g. and by "high temperature tensile tests" for "plastic deformation"
h. all due to "residual stress" *_during_* "brake applications.

It's a bit confusing but they _also_ added a separate action of
"heat treating in a vacuum furnace" to "simulate distortion at
high temperatures", um, so, um, they purposefully distorted the
discs, it appears... and _then_ they tested them for distortion
under pressure. (I admit that's a bit confusing to swallow.)

Also notice they're talking _during_ the brake application,
and that they're comparing residual stress between a single
heat treated & a single non heat treated gray iron rotor.

Nothing wrong with a test of just one component, but let's keep
that in mind (although I'm not saying anything was done wrong).

Presumably, if these numbers are meaningful, heat treating works:
"The results showed that the average residual stress of the '
heat-treated disk (47.6 MPa) was lower than that of the
non-heat-treated disk (99.6 MPa)."

"Dynamometer tests at high temperatures (up to 600�C/1112�F) indicated
that the residual stress pronounced the runout: the increase in disk
runout after the tests for the non-heat-treated sample was more than
twice that for the heat-treated sample."

Notice this is testing at high heat _during_ braking only; not afterward.
Their conclusion was that heat treating works, and that disks improperly
manufactured (i.e., no "stress relaxation" performed on them during the
manufacturing process) could be "deformed _during_ severe braking".

After first reading the abstract (which is how you read scientific
peer-reviewed papers, and yes, I've been published myself), you jump
to the conclusion next.

In the conclusion they state their goal was to study the difference
between heat treated and non heat treated gray iron rotors on high
heat distortion _during_ braking. At elevated temperatures, they
found the heat treated rotor (singular) distorted less than the heat
treated rotor (singular - as they only used two rotors for the test).

I found their conclusion interesting in that after they purposefully
introduced runout, they found that the largest increase was found
"along the circumference near the edge", which they opined
"indicates the necessity for a more refined design of the casting
process and the disk shape."

At that point I started to read how they ran their experiment,
but let's not summarize that here as I don't see anything wrong
with what they did (nor am I'm qualified to critique them).

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h7me$tt2$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:52:29 -0700
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 by: Alan - Wed, 11 May 2022 20:52 UTC

On 2022-05-11 1:49 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> The author quoted above says - in the same article - "The excessive
>> heat from the pads can
>> cause the discs to overheat, resulting in disc warping."
>
> We've had this discussion many times, where I'm well aware that there is
> conflicting information even in any one given article on the subject.
>
> What we have is a difference in terminology and measurement skills.
>
> For example:
> *The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors*
> <https://trade.mechanic.com.au/news/solved-the-mystery-of-warped-brake-rotors>
>
> "Contrary to popular belief, brake rotors, and especially brake rotors
> supplied by a reputable manufacturer such as DBA don't warp, no matter
> how aggressively a vehicle is driven. Yet, as we know, brake pedal
> pulsation caused by out-of-true brake rotors is a fairly common problem
> that is almost invariably attributed to warped rotors, which is almost
> invariably confirmed by excessive amounts of rotor run out that is easy
> to "prove" with a dial gauge."
>
> *Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth*
> <https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>
> "It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause  of
> the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup  of brake
> pad material on the rotor itself."

Tell me, Mr. Well-educated:

Does "exceedingly rare" actually mean "impossible"?

>
> The conflicting information is why you heard me say a few times in the
> beginning that I wasn't saying it can't happen, but that it doesn't.
> [I'm well aware some reliable references say it can't happen also.]
>
> Given of the 100% of people who _say_ their rotors warped, 0% of them
> actually measured it (and probably only 10% would know how), it's not warp.

This is your idea of only stating facts, is it?

Claiming things you cannot possibly know?

>
>> You'll probably find this study interesting:
>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-012-0397-7#article-info
>> Let me know what you think of it.
>
> Nice catch. Right down my line.
>
> *The Effect of Residual Stress on the Distortion of Gray Iron Brake Disks*
> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-012-0397-7#article-info>
>
> From the first two sentences, it appears they studied:
> a. "thermal distortion" b. of "gray iron brake disks" c. due to
> "residual stress"
> d. on both a heat-treated & non-heat-treated gray iron disk (singular)
> e. measured by "neutron scattering"
> f. and by "dynamometer tests" to measure "disk runout" during braking
> g. and by "high temperature tensile tests" for "plastic deformation"
> h. all due to "residual stress" *_during_* "brake applications.
>
> It's a bit confusing but they _also_ added a separate action of
> "heat treating in a vacuum furnace" to "simulate distortion at high
> temperatures", um, so, um, they purposefully distorted the discs, it
> appears... and _then_ they tested them for distortion
> under pressure. (I admit that's a bit confusing to swallow.)
>
> Also notice they're talking _during_ the brake application, and that
> they're comparing residual stress between a single
> heat treated & a single non heat treated gray iron rotor.
>
> Nothing wrong with a test of just one component, but let's keep
> that in mind (although I'm not saying anything was done wrong).
>
> Presumably, if these numbers are meaningful, heat treating works:
> "The results showed that the average residual stress of the '
>  heat-treated disk (47.6 MPa) was lower than that of the
>  non-heat-treated disk (99.6 MPa)."
>
> "Dynamometer tests at high temperatures (up to 600�C/1112�F) indicated
>  that the residual stress pronounced the runout: the increase in disk
>  runout after the tests for the non-heat-treated sample was more than
>  twice that for the heat-treated sample."
>
> Notice this is testing at high heat _during_ braking only; not afterward.
> Their conclusion was that heat treating works, and that disks improperly
> manufactured (i.e., no "stress relaxation" performed on them during the
> manufacturing process) could be "deformed _during_ severe braking".
>
> After first reading the abstract (which is how you read scientific
> peer-reviewed papers, and yes, I've been published myself), you jump
> to the conclusion next.
>
> In the conclusion they state their goal was to study the difference
> between heat treated and non heat treated gray iron rotors on high
> heat distortion _during_ braking. At elevated temperatures, they found
> the heat treated rotor (singular) distorted less than the heat
> treated rotor (singular - as they only used two rotors for the test).
>
> I found their conclusion interesting in that after they purposefully
> introduced runout, they found that the largest increase was found
> "along the circumference near the edge", which they opined
> "indicates the necessity for a more refined design of the casting
>  process and the disk shape."
>
> At that point I started to read how they ran their experiment, but let's
> not summarize that here as I don't see anything wrong
> with what they did (nor am I'm qualified to critique them).

Did I call it?

:-)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5h8as$1u4cc$1@paganini.bofh.team>

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Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 21:03:25 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Doe - Wed, 11 May 2022 21:03 UTC

Alan wrote:

> Did I call it?

You must be a speed reader because your post is 3 minutes after his
during which time you read the article Vic proposed & his response.

What is your summary of what Vic Smith's article said?
And how does your assessment differ from his?

You have three minutes.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5hass$88h$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 22:47:31 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Wed, 11 May 2022 21:47 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Unless new data has arisen, there are fundamentally two types of articles
> that will use the word "warp", namely...
> a. Those that _know_ warp doesn't happen, and,
> b. Those that don't know warp doesn't happen.
>
> For the articles that know warp doesn't happen, they will always explain
> how the shudder occurs (e.g., TV or runout or whatever), while those that
> don't know will be clueless. They'll call _everything_ warp.

Btw, since Steve has repeatedly insisted warp occurs, I must make the point
that _every_ article proposed by Steve has been in the latter category.

That is, as Steve did with his fabricated FCC maps (he never knew they
showed _zero_ 3G and 5G coverage until I looked it up and _told_ him that),
Steve, the consummate politician, purposefully selects the least reliable
articles to make his claims.

As if we're _all_ not aware that there are billions of people out there,
who want to sell you new rotors who will claim that your rotors warped.

BTW, if any shop does that, then think about the horrendous conditions that
it would take to warp a rotor, and not only should that rotor be thrown
away, but likely the entire car should be junked...

Simply because the conditions to truly warp a rotor are nigh near
impossible to attain, and if they were attained, you'd boil your fluids and
most of your rubber components would be marshmallows, and your pads would
shatter, etc.

In summary, anyone who tells you your rotors warped, and his solution is
anything other than to junk that car, then he's clearly bullshitting you.
--
If the proposed solution to true rotor warp isn't to junk the car, then
you're being bullshitted because warp conditions destroy more than rotors.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 00:17:25 +0200
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Wed, 11 May 2022 22:17 UTC

On 2022-05-08 12:36, NY wrote:
> "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote in message
> news:t57i62$p1k$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> Do the math on a single stop from highway speed.
>>
>> My 2012 BMW 135i MSport Edition weights 4,255lbs, so stopping it from
>> 60mph must dissipate 694,273 Joules.
>>
>> We'll assume that all the energy of the stop remains in the rotors
>> themselves, and that BMW has done it's job properly and that therefore
>> the front and rear brake rotors are proportional in mass to the energy
>> each must dissipate.
>>
>> So we can take the total mass of the rotors, the heat capacity of
>> steel and calculate the change in temperature.
>>
>> The mass of those rotors is 34.47kg
>>
>> The specific heat of steel is about 420 joules per kilogram per degree
>>
>> 420J/kg*c
>>
>> So with 34.47kg, we get 14,477.4 J per degree C temperature change,
>> and dividing the 694,273 joules we've got, we get a temperature change
>> of...
>>
>> ...just about 48 degree.
>>
>> If it's a warm summer day, you're not going to want to touch the
>> rotors, as they will now be above the boiling point of water (about
>> 120°C)...
>>
>> (Provided you ignore the energy lost to the airflow and also
>> dissipated by the mass of the pads and calipers themselves, as well
>> was the energy conducted into the hub of each wheel)...
>>
>> ...but it's hardly going to be enough to deposit brake pad material
>> onto the disk.
>>
>> This is why brake bedding procedures call for MULTIPLE retardations
>> from highway speed in order to get the disks hot enough to deposit an
>> even layer of pad material onto the surface.
>>
>> I know this, because in my amateur racing "career", I'm also a senior
>> racing instructor, and because our students are driving road cars for
>> sessions where the brakes actually WILL get to the temperatures that
>> can cause that kind of deposition, we always tell them not to apply
>> the parking braking when returning to the paddock after a session.
>
> I remember many years ago watching a "for schools and colleges" TV
> science programme at school about "energy". It talked about converting
> kinetic energy into other forms. As an example, they rigged up a camera
> on a car, pointing at the front brake disc. They they took it on a
> racing track (they emphasised that this was off-road!), and repeatedly
> accelerated to 70 and then braked hard to a stop. After a few cycles of
> this, the discs were glowing cherry red. I was quite surprised that
> discs would get *that* hot, and that brake pads would withstand contact
> with red-hot metal.

I worked for a company where we made industrial test beds (I was the
programmer). One of those was for testing brakes. During testing at the
brake factory where this machine was installed, the chap there actually
brought the disk to that hot. The testing procedures included braking
from 40, 60, & 80 down to 0, several times in a row, while graphing disk
temp, fluid pressure, torque...

He said a good pad material would not degrade or "fade" suddenly when
too hot, but would lose the friction coefficient gradually as
temperature increases, thus warning the driver of the danger.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 15:25:11 -0700
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 by: sms - Wed, 11 May 2022 22:25 UTC

On 5/11/2022 5:47 AM, NY wrote:

<snip>

> I wonder what effect that high temperature had on the pads once they
> were red hot. Would you want to ride in that car afterwards - would the
> pads have been made less effective? How hot do discs get if you descend
> a long hill (let's say a mile long, average 1:4 aka 25%) using brakes
> only. My wife remembers a friend descending such a hill (Porlock Hill in
> Devon, England) in a motor caravan which may have had a mixture of discs
> and drums. By the end of the hill, there was smoke coming from the
> wheels (brake pads, presumably) - the driver learned an important
> lesson: to engage a low gear on a long steep hill so there is a bit of
> transmission braking to supplement the normal friction braking.

Decades ago I replace the brake pads on a VW Rabbit (Golf in other
regions) with pads that I ordered online from JC Whitney, a mail-order
parts house. Descending a steep hill, in San Francisco, the pads glazed
over from the heat. The rotors were fine. Did another brake job
immediately, using high-quality pads from an import car parts store.

Unfortunately, in the U.S., not a lot of vehicle owners still do their
own car maintenance so the number of auto parts stores is greatly
reduced. In my town of 60,000 people we've lost all three of our auto
parts stores as well as a fourth that's just across the city boundary. I
now buy my oil at Costco or Walmart and I order my oil filters from a
dealer that sells OEM parts on eBay.

Two of our vehicles are hybrids and because of regenerative braking the
brakes last a very long time, easily more than 100K miles. On my old VWs
I had to do brake jobs every 25K-30K miles.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 15:43:04 -0700
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 by: sms - Wed, 11 May 2022 22:43 UTC

On 5/11/2022 5:20 AM, Xeno wrote:

<snip>

> Nope, they were warped and wouldn't clean up *before* they went below
> minimum thickness. In the early days I tried a few, found I was wasting
> my time machining them, then started relying on *measurements* to
> determine serviceability after machining. It's only involves simple
> arithmetic. Discs these days are like spark plugs - the cost of repair
> due to time involved is outweighed by the low cost of new items.

"Back in the olden days" I kept a spare set of rotors so when I was
doing a brake job I didn't have to stop and take the rotors to be
machined in the middle of the work. I'd then take the rotors that I
removed to be put on a lathe (for free since my relative had a repair
shop) and they'd be ready for the next brake job in 25,000 miles or so.

But back then discs were thick and heavy and could be machined multiple
times before they were too thin. Nowadays rotors are so thin they can
usually not be machined even once, but they've also become less
expensive (when adjusted for inflation).

My brother-in-law saw a lot of vehicles with warped rotors back in the
mid-1990's to 2000's, when the manufacturers started making them very
thin without the material science knowledge of how to prevent warping.
Just one serious overheating and the rotors were warped beyond repair.
There was one GM brand, that is now defunct, that was particularly
susceptible to warped rotors. His shop was in San Francisco and there
are lot of very steep hills (when San Francisco was first laid out the
proposal was to not do a grid because of the hills, but to have roads
winding up the hills; real estate people protested that this would be
too complicated).

Is someone actually claiming that disc rotors don't warp? That would be
very surprising since nearly every car mechanic in the world is well
aware of this issue
<https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/cars/click-and-clack/story/2019-05-02/warped-rotors-give-this-pony-the-shakes>,
<https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/warped-brake-discs-are-bad-news>,

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 16:41:38 -0700
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 by: sms - Wed, 11 May 2022 23:41 UTC

On 5/11/2022 5:20 AM, NY wrote:
> That word "warped" is misleading because it makes people think "wavy".

Yes, in many cases "uneven" would be a better adjective than "warped"
but there are still cases where the steel brake rotor is deformed from heat.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:19:06 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 12 May 2022 00:19 UTC

On 2022-05-11 4:41 p.m., sms wrote:
> On 5/11/2022 5:20 AM, NY wrote:
>> That word "warped" is misleading because it makes people think "wavy".
>
> Yes, in many cases "uneven" would be a better adjective than "warped"
> but there are still cases where the steel brake rotor is deformed from
> heat.

"Warped" is a perfectly fine descriptor and no one would argue that a
2x4 piece of lumber was "warped" simply because all it had was (say) a
twist.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:20:54 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 12 May 2022 00:20 UTC

On 2022-05-11 2:47 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> Unless new data has arisen, there are fundamentally two types of articles
>> that will use the word "warp", namely... a. Those that _know_ warp
>> doesn't happen, and, b. Those that don't know warp doesn't happen.
>>
>> For the articles that know warp doesn't happen, they will always explain
>> how the shudder occurs (e.g., TV or runout or whatever), while those that
>> don't know will be clueless. They'll call _everything_ warp.
>
> Btw, since Steve has repeatedly insisted warp occurs, I must make the point
> that _every_ article proposed by Steve has been in the latter category.
>
> That is, as Steve did with his fabricated FCC maps (he never knew they
> showed _zero_ 3G and 5G coverage until I looked it up and _told_ him
> that), Steve, the consummate politician, purposefully selects the least
> reliable
> articles to make his claims.
>
> As if we're _all_ not aware that there are billions of people out there,
> who want to sell you new rotors who will claim that your rotors warped.
>
> BTW, if any shop does that, then think about the horrendous conditions that
> it would take to warp a rotor, and not only should that rotor be thrown
> away, but likely the entire car should be junked...
>
> Simply because the conditions to truly warp a rotor are nigh near
> impossible to attain, and if they were attained, you'd boil your fluids and
> most of your rubber components would be marshmallows, and your pads would
> shatter, etc.
>
> In summary, anyone who tells you your rotors warped, and his solution is
> anything other than to junk that car, then he's clearly bullshitting you.

What a load of bullshit.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5hjt9$uld$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32181&group=comp.mobile.android#32181

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 01:21:19 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Thu, 12 May 2022 00:21 UTC

sms wrote:

> Decades ago I replace the brake pads on a VW Rabbit (Golf in other
> regions) with pads that I ordered online from JC Whitney, a mail-order
> parts house. Descending a steep hill, in San Francisco, the pads glazed
> over from the heat. The rotors were fine. Did another brake job
> immediately, using high-quality pads from an import car parts store.

High quality?
How did you know?
By the advertising?

HINT: What's the cold/hot friction rating (coefficient) of those pads?
DOUBLEHINT: It's printed on every passenger vehicle pad sold in the USA.

> Unfortunately, in the U.S., not a lot of vehicle owners still do their
> own car maintenance so the number of auto parts stores is greatly
> reduced.

Is that true?

Do people do less of their maintenance now that it's easier than ever
before to do typical maintenance on a car for a whole bunch of reasons:
a. Cars require less maintenance nowadays (e.g., no points)
b. Videos abound on YouTube for how to do all sorts of maintenance
c. Cars are simpler now than they have ever been (IMHO)
d. The Internet makes finding & buying the correct parts super easy
etc.

Were auto parts stores more prevalent in the past than they are now?

> In my town of 60,000 people we've lost all three of our auto
> parts stores as well as a fourth that's just across the city boundary. I
> now buy my oil at Costco or Walmart and I order my oil filters from a
> dealer that sells OEM parts on eBay.

Maybe that (and Internet shopping) is why you lost your auto parts stores?
Why do you think that loss is only due to a presumed lack of home DIY?

> Two of our vehicles are hybrids and because of regenerative braking the
> brakes last a very long time, easily more than 100K miles. On my old VWs
> I had to do brake jobs every 25K-30K miles.

I still have a RWD vehicle with drum brakes, whose shoes lasted, oh, about
180K miles (and which were still meaty when I replaced them), and, let's be
clear, I live on the top of a mountain which is clearly tough on them.

The fronts go more frequently of course...
--
Each post to Usenet should strive to add value to what people already said.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5hjvl$b5m$3@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:22:11 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 12 May 2022 00:22 UTC

On 2022-05-11 3:25 p.m., sms wrote:
> On 5/11/2022 5:47 AM, NY wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I wonder what effect that high temperature had on the pads once they
>> were red hot. Would you want to ride in that car afterwards - would
>> the pads have been made less effective? How hot do discs get if you
>> descend a long hill (let's say a mile long, average 1:4 aka 25%) using
>> brakes only. My wife remembers a friend descending such a hill
>> (Porlock Hill in Devon, England) in a motor caravan which may have had
>> a mixture of discs and drums. By the end of the hill, there was smoke
>> coming from the wheels (brake pads, presumably) - the driver learned
>> an important lesson: to engage a low gear on a long steep hill so
>> there is a bit of transmission braking to supplement the normal
>> friction braking.
>
> Decades ago I replace the brake pads on a VW Rabbit (Golf in other
> regions) with pads that I ordered online from JC Whitney, a mail-order
> parts house. Descending a steep hill, in San Francisco, the pads glazed
> over from the heat. The rotors were fine. Did another brake job
> immediately, using high-quality pads from an import car parts store.

Some brake compounds aren't compatible with what came before and the new
pads can do that.

>
> Unfortunately, in the U.S., not a lot of vehicle owners still do their
> own car maintenance so the number of auto parts stores is greatly
> reduced. In my town of 60,000 people we've lost all three of our auto
> parts stores as well as a fourth that's just across the city boundary. I
> now buy my oil at Costco or Walmart and I order my oil filters from a
> dealer that sells OEM parts on eBay.
>
> Two of our vehicles are hybrids and because of regenerative braking the
> brakes last a very long time, easily more than 100K miles. On my old VWs
> I had to do brake jobs every 25K-30K miles.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5hk3o$b5m$4@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:24:23 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 12 May 2022 00:24 UTC

On 2022-05-11 2:03 p.m., John Doe wrote:
> Alan wrote:
>
>> Did I call it?
>
> You must be a speed reader because your post is 3 minutes after his
> during which time you read the article Vic proposed & his response.

Why would I have had to read the article then and there?

The article was posted (checking) at 11:35, and I replied to Vic at
12:53pm with my prediction.

>
> What is your summary of what Vic Smith's article said?
> And how does your assessment differ from his?
>
> You have three minutes.

Sorry, but I'm not into the game playing.

Brake rotor warping can be and has been demonstrated by me with actual
video of warped rotors.

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