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computers / comp.mobile.android / Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

SubjectAuthor
* re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovVanguardLH
|`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
| `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |    `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | || `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||  +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexKen Olson
|  | | ||   |    | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | ||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   |    | |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |    | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |    |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   |      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |       `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |        `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |         `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |          `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |           `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |            `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |             `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |              `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||       `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |  | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  |  `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | |  |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |     |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    | `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli

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Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<je44ndFom7pU2@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32217&group=comp.mobile.android#32217

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 20:09:49 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5ikfm$1ik2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Thu, 12 May 2022 10:09 UTC

On 12/5/2022 7:37 pm, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> I believe in what I see, what I feel, what I measure, etc. And I have
>> seen warped rotors, I have cleaned up and put back into service
>> lightly warped rotors and I have rejected rotors too far gone to clean
>> up. And yes, I have seen all the other types of rotor faults too and,
>> what's more, I can differentiate.
>
> Hi Xeno,
> Let's cut our losses as you will _never_ read any reference I've provided.
>
> I provided, what, oh, maybe about a dozen reliable references that back up
> my point of view, and you provided, oh, um, what? Zero, right?
>
> You think I didn't know that was going to happen, oh, maybe a decade ago?
> There's a reason I said that we own the intuition of monkeys, Xeno.
>
> And there's a reason I said that this intuition is a terrible thing indeed.
> People who trust only in their intuition are only right by pure chance.
>
> It's people who trust in facts who are right more often than they're wrong.
> And you don't want to see any facts (you didn't even _read_ them, in fact).
>
> That means it's impossible to carry on an adult conversation with you on
> this topic. It's like asking someone to stop believing in the Easter Bunny.
>
> Let's just leave it at that because I can provide ten thousand factual
> references that the earth isn't flat and there will _still_ be people like
> you and Steve and Alan Baker who will emphatically claim it _is_ flat.
>
> Not only that it's flat, but they'll find some 30-second YouTube video of a
> twelve year old kid in NJ who, with just a yardstick, "proved" it's flat.
>
> So let's cut our losses.
> You think the earth is flat, and you have Alan Baker on your side.
> Steve too.
>
> All I have on my side is every reputable brake expert in the industry.
> I won't provide you with any more facts because you don't want to see them.

I have real world experience with disc brakes on my side, that's enough!

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<je44vmFoog6U1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32218&group=comp.mobile.android#32218

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 20:14:11 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <fgfp7hld4geo1a8of5du2kig1621o5jj5l@4ax.com>
 by: Xeno - Thu, 12 May 2022 10:14 UTC

On 12/5/2022 7:06 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 21:49:37 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Vic Smith wrote:
>>
> snip
>>> You'll probably find this study interesting:
>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-012-0397-7#article-info
>>> Let me know what you think of it.
>>
>> Nice catch. Right down my line.
>>
> snip
>> At that point I started to read how they ran their experiment,
>> but let's not summarize that here as I don't see anything wrong
>> with what they did (nor am I'm qualified to critique them).
>
> Here's what I took from the study.
> "In particular, brake judder has been an important issue in vehicle comfort in recent
> years, and various methodologies for reducing this low-frequency vibration have been used
> (Ref 6-8). It is known that disk warping or uneven disk thicknesses induce pulsation during
> brake applications."

And it also can cause shimmy without pulsations or judder. That I have
definitely experienced and on my own car.

> Also noteworthy to me are the affiliations of the authors:
> Department of Materials Science and Engineering, Korea University.
> R&D Division, Hyundai Motor Company and Kia Motors Corporation.
>
> I recall you asked for an example of a reputable cite stating warped rotors exist, and this
> cite certainly qualifies.
> As an aside, I'm not suggesting that warped rotors are a common occurrence. I've only
> encountered it once. No doubt warp is a catchall for pad deposition and hard spots of
> rotors. But it does occur. My opinion is it is a manufacturing defect caused by improper

A lot of people, when doing diagnosis, cannot differentiate the
symptoms. At the end of the day, the process of *measuring* and
*machining* clears up beyond any shadow of doubt as to what the problem is.

> heat treating during production of the rotor. Having spent 3-4 years as a heat treater in
> a mass production environment I'm aware there are many ways that process can be fubarred.
> I'm not surprised. My two cents.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5ira4$p3h$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32220&group=comp.mobile.android#32220

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:33:47 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t5ira4$p3h$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:33 UTC

Vic Smith wrote:

> Here's what I took from the study.

You do know that cast gray iron _melts_ at about 2,300�F, right?
<https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
"To get cast iron hot enough to soften the metal you'd need to generate
almost 2,300�F range. There isn't a factory stock automotive brake
system in the world that's capable of generating that kind of heat.
In fact, you would experience brake pad fade, pad disintegration,
brake fluid boiling and rotor discoloration long before you
reached 1,000�F."

And, let's be clear about the boiling point of brake fluid, Vic.
<https://www.dixcel.co.jp/en/subcontent/literature/literature02.html>
DOT 3 >401�F (new) & 284�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 4 >446�F (new) & 311�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5.1 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)

Having said that, you do realize the test disks used in that experiment
were not "normal" in that the prior heat treatment was for five & ten hours
at 1,076�F and then furnace cooled to 572�F at the rate of 104�F per hour
for about five more hours, and then air cooled to room temperature for a
few more hours _before_ testing on the dynamometer, right?

*How often do _your_ brake rotors spend ten hours at a thousand degrees?*

They tested those cast iron rotors under those rather extreme conditions
because they were scientists & engineers who were studying the effects of
various manufacturing conditions for improving cast materials, and because
they were interested in crafting what they called a "prescreening process"
for disk selection at the early stages of brake system development.

It's almost certainly good science, but it's not a real-world test, Vic.
HINT: _A brake system would be marshmallows under those conditions._
--
*The Effect of Residual Stress on the Distortion of Gray Iron Brake Disks*
<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11665-012-0397-7#article-info>

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:05:00 -0700
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 by: sms - Thu, 12 May 2022 13:05 UTC

On 5/11/2022 6:29 PM, Xeno wrote:
> On 12/5/2022 6:01 am, Alan wrote:

>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiuwzN2mQuA&t=122s>
>
> Yep, done that, seen the warp, many, many times!
>
> I liked the way he did that final non-directional finish. I used to do
> it the hard way, that looked easy in comparison.

Good video

Andy Burnelli/Arlen Holder/Dean Hoffman/Nil/Robin Goodfellow/more is
wrong of courseâ„¢.

Those look like pretty thick rotors. The warping had to be pretty minor
in order to machine them flat. Most of the rotors these days are too
thin to machine and are just replaced as part of brake job.

There is one train of thought that turning sufficiently thick, flat,
non-warped, rotors, is unnecessary and that after a short while the pads
will break in to match the minor imperfections in the rotor, with just a
little extra wear on the pads. "If your rotor surface is smooth there is
generally no need to have them turned. If, however, you have warping, or
rough spots they should be turned, or replaced if need be. This is
easily detected if you have a solid, non-pulsing braking action when you
press down on the pedal,"
<https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 00:01:18 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Thu, 12 May 2022 23:01 UTC

sms wrote:

> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.

People like Steve are no different than people who believe the earth is flat.
Steve actually _believes_ what he writes.... and yet...
And yet... and yet... Steve doesn't even _read_ what the experts say about it.

As a result, Steve will _never_ (ever!) find a reputable expert to back up his
claims that the earth is, dammit, flat.

But... he can _always_ find a salesperson selling bullshit to back him up.
Which is what Steve did in this thread (and with his four URLs):
<https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/warped-brake-discs-are-bad-news>
<https://brakeexperts.com/what-causes-brake-rotors-to-warp/>
<https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/cars/click-and-clack/story/2019-05-02/warped-rotors-give-this-pony-the-shakes>
<https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.

Notice Steve can't find even a _single_ expert backing up his claims
that the earth is flat simply because he found people who said so.

Below is what Steve is completely unaware of (it's from _all_ the experts).
==================
*Warped Rotor Myth Training Video, by Raybestos Brand Brakes*
<https://www.facebook.com/RaybestosBrandBrakes/videos/warped-rotor-myth/2174044739282278/>
Many technicians will diagnose pedal pulsation as warped rotors.
Let's dispel that myth right now. *Rotors do not warp.*

*To warp a rotor you physically have to change the*
*metallurgy of that rotor. To change the metallurgy*
*of a rotor, you're running in excess of 2,300 degrees.*

_There is no brake system that runs 2,300 degrees._
==================
<https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
"To get cast iron hot enough to soften the metal you'd need to generate
almost 2,300�F range. There isn't a factory stock automotive brake
system in the world that's capable of generating that kind of heat.
In fact, you would experience brake pad fade, pad disintegration,
brake fluid boiling and rotor discoloration long before you
reached 1,000�F."
==================
Let's be clear we're "mostly" talking cast iron rotors here:
1. cast iron (2,300�F)
2. steel
3. stainless steel
4. laminated steel
5. high carbon iron (e.g., Sparta CX3.5)
6. ceramic

And, let's be clear about the boiling point of brake fluid.
<https://www.dixcel.co.jp/en/subcontent/literature/literature02.html>
DOT 3 >401�F (new) & 284�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 4 >446�F (new) & 311�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5.1 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)
==================
*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
Rotors are cast in extreme heat at three to five times greater
than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically 'warping'
a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat,
which is impossible."
==================
*The 'Warped' Brake Disc & Other Myths of the Braking System*
<https://centricparts.com/getmedia/bd69395a-b65c-481d-93f7-b26b1bd0638d/Centric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf>
<https://www.ipdusa.com/Articles/528/The-Warped-Brake-Disc-and-Other-Myths-of-the-Braking-System>
"In more than 40 years of professional racing, including the
Shelby/Ford GT 40s - one of the most intense brake development
programs in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc."
==================
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/brake-rotors-dont-warp-the-earth-is-not-flat/>
"By declaring a customer's brake pedal pulsation complaint is caused
by warped rotors is like saying the earth is flat. Both are cases where
the observation of the person is based on a tiny piece of evidence
that is false in nature and application."
==================
<https://www.crossdrilledrotors.ca/blog/part-one-rotors-dont-warp>
"Brake rotors do not warp from heat, even when driven by the
most aggressive traffic officer."
==================
*The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors*
<https://trade.mechanic.com.au/news/solved-the-mystery-of-warped-brake-rotors>
"Contrary to popular belief, brake rotors, and especially brake rotors
supplied by a reputable manufacturer such as DBA don't warp, no matter
how aggressively a vehicle is driven. Yet, as we know, brake pedal
pulsation caused by out-of-true brake rotors is a fairly common problem
that is almost invariably attributed to warped rotors, which is almost
invariably confirmed by excessive amounts of rotor run out that is easy
to "prove" with a dial gauge."
==================
*Why Do Brake Rotors Warp?*
<https://www.buybrakes.com/help/why-do-brake-rotors-warp/>
"The thing is, rotors don't actually permanently warp. It may feel that
way when braking, but what really happens is that they become irregular
due to excessive lateral run out of the rotor face. You can feel through
the brake pedal as little as .002" of run out. This amount of run out is
far smaller than you can see. In other words, rotors always remain true,
but they can wear out irregularly for several reasons."
1. Lug torque
2. Hub rust
3. Hub runout
==================
*Brake Rotors Warp From Heat -- Myth Busted*
<https://www.hansonsubaru.com/service/information/brake-myths.htm>
"there's simply no way that a brake rotor can get hot enough to warp
or deform on an ordinary passenger car."
==================
*Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth*
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>
"It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause
of the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup
of brake pad material on the rotor itself. As little as 0.0004 inch
can be felt through the pedal & 0.001 inch can be downright annoying"
==================
**Everything You Need to Know About High-Tech Rotors**
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/understanding-disc-brake-rotors/>
"The most persistent myth about rotors is that they warp. It takes a
lot of heat, the kind of heat used in the casting process, to actually
warp a rotor. The two common problems that cause pedal pulsation are
lateral run-out and disc thickness variation. Lateral run-out is
typically caused by run-out from the hub face, wheel bearing, uneven
lug nut torque, or a buildup of rust and corrosion between wheel and hub.
Disc thickness variation is most often caused by excess pad transfer,
the very thin layer of pad material that bonds to the rotor surface,
and uneven wear from an improperly mounted caliper. "
==================
*Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?*
<https://blog.fcpeuro.com/warped-brake-rotors-vibrating-reality-or-internet-myth>
"Traditionally, this was blamed on warped rotors, and the prescription
was to either get the rotors machined or to replace the rotors.
Technically this wasn't wrong, but it's not completely right either.
To understand what is going on, lets examine how the brake pads
and rotors interact. It's not as simple as it seems on the surface,
and relies on complex interaction between friction materials.
Technically yes, the rotor is warped because the buildup of pad deposits
is a few thousandths of an inch thick. To restore proper smooth braking
performance, the uneven deposits need to be removed, and a fresh uniform
layer of friction material needs to be laid down."
==================
*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
"Myths take hold �because either A) they seem completely logical or
B) they are so often repeated that they just become common knowledge.
The warped rotor myth is a little bit of both. A rotor that
contributed to a pulsation condition certainly appears 'warped.'
Plus, everyone says it - even technicians that know the rotor isn't
really warped will say it as shorthand. Rotors are cast in extreme heat
at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking
situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar
application of extreme heat, which is impossible."
==================
*Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked*
<https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/05/19/6-biggest-brake-rotor-myths-debunked/>
Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp.
Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the
movie Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about
brake-rotor "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because,
in layman's terms, it makes sense.
But then real life happens and this faulty explanation doesn't
hold up to scientific scrutiny.
What is often described as "warping" is actually the presence of
two separate phenomena that can happen in isolation or in combination
with each other, and neither has anything to do with warping.
These phenomena are:
a. Brake torque variation (BTV), and
b. Disc thickness variation (DTV)
==================
*The myth of warped brake discs*
<https://alconkits.com/technical-info/brake-tech/56-the-myth-of-warped-brake-discs>
"Have you ever heard someone say they had warped brake discs?
Typically someone had the discs resurfaced to cure the problem
and after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration came back.
In almost every case, this problem is not caused by a warped discs,
but that the brake pad material transferred unevenly to the surface
of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation
or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures."
==================
<https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
"Calling it brake rotor warp demonstrates a complete misunderstanding
of the metallurgy and the braking process"
==================
--
People like Steve are no different than people who believe the earth is flat.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:25:49 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Thu, 12 May 2022 23:25 UTC

On 2022-05-12 4:01 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> sms wrote:
>
>> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.
>>
>
> People like Steve are no different than people who believe the earth is
> flat.
> Steve actually _believes_ what he writes.... and yet... And yet... and
> yet... Steve doesn't even _read_ what the experts say about it.
>
> As a result, Steve will _never_ (ever!) find a reputable expert to back
> up his
> claims that the earth is, dammit, flat.
>
> But... he can _always_ find a salesperson selling bullshit to back him up.
> Which is what Steve did in this thread (and with his four URLs):
> <https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/warped-brake-discs-are-bad-news>
>
> <https://brakeexperts.com/what-causes-brake-rotors-to-warp/>
> <https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/cars/click-and-clack/story/2019-05-02/warped-rotors-give-this-pony-the-shakes>
>
> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.
>
> Notice Steve can't find even a _single_ expert backing up his claims
> that the earth is flat simply because he found people who said so.

Empiricism trumps your bullshit, Arlen:

'In the past people here have said that rotors don't "warp". That
shaking or shuddering during braking is caused by brake pad deposits.
This is on my lathe right now. You can see the spots where the bit is
not even touching the rotor. Definitely NOT pad deposits. The bits are
missing the rotor on opposite sides like you would think it would if a
rotor was warped. Thoughts?'

<https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/warped-rotor-pics.309555/>

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 01:12:34 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:12 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> I have real world experience with disc brakes on my side, that's enough!

You didn't have to tell me that.
I knew it.

Your real-world experience is very helpful sometimes.
As it was with the tire wear on mountain roads.

I appreciate that.
I won't delve further on the brake rotor warp issue.
--
My only caution is that you side with Alan Baker which doesn't bode well
for your ability to discern logic (nobody even responds to Alan but Steve).

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5k8a2$1le$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32246&group=comp.mobile.android#32246

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 17:21:22 -0700
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 by: Alan - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:21 UTC

On 2022-05-12 5:12 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> I have real world experience with disc brakes on my side, that's enough!
>
> You didn't have to tell me that.
> I knew it.
>
> Your real-world experience is very helpful sometimes.
> As it was with the tire wear on mountain roads.
>
> I appreciate that.
> I won't delve further on the brake rotor warp issue.

Because you lack the integrity to admit you were wrong.

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5k8lv$3rd$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to
the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 19:27:39 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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 by: AMuzi - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:27 UTC

On 5/12/2022 4:37 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> I believe in what I see, what I feel, what I measure, etc.
>> And I have seen warped rotors, I have cleaned up and put
>> back into service lightly warped rotors and I have
>> rejected rotors too far gone to clean up. And yes, I have
>> seen all the other types of rotor faults too and, what's
>> more, I can differentiate.
>
> Hi Xeno,
> Let's cut our losses as you will _never_ read any reference
> I've provided.
>
> I provided, what, oh, maybe about a dozen reliable
> references that back up
> my point of view, and you provided, oh, um, what? Zero, right?
>
> You think I didn't know that was going to happen, oh, maybe
> a decade ago?
> There's a reason I said that we own the intuition of
> monkeys, Xeno.
>
> And there's a reason I said that this intuition is a
> terrible thing indeed.
> People who trust only in their intuition are only right by
> pure chance.
>
> It's people who trust in facts who are right more often than
> they're wrong.
> And you don't want to see any facts (you didn't even _read_
> them, in fact).
>
> That means it's impossible to carry on an adult conversation
> with you on
> this topic. It's like asking someone to stop believing in
> the Easter Bunny.
>
> Let's just leave it at that because I can provide ten
> thousand factual
> references that the earth isn't flat and there will _still_
> be people like
> you and Steve and Alan Baker who will emphatically claim it
> _is_ flat.
>
> Not only that it's flat, but they'll find some 30-second
> YouTube video of a
> twelve year old kid in NJ who, with just a yardstick,
> "proved" it's flat.
>
> So let's cut our losses.
> You think the earth is flat, and you have Alan Baker on your
> side.
> Steve too.
>
> All I have on my side is every reputable brake expert in the
> industry.
> I won't provide you with any more facts because you don't
> want to see them.

f you're so certain about that why not offer to pay parts
and service charges for a warped brake rotor?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5k8si$1le$5@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 17:31:13 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 70
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 by: Alan - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:31 UTC

On 2022-05-12 5:27 p.m., AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 4:37 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> Xeno wrote:
>>
>>> I believe in what I see, what I feel, what I measure, etc.
>>> And I have seen warped rotors, I have cleaned up and put
>>> back into service lightly warped rotors and I have
>>> rejected rotors too far gone to clean up. And yes, I have
>>> seen all the other types of rotor faults too and, what's
>>> more, I can differentiate.
>>
>> Hi Xeno,
>> Let's cut our losses as you will _never_ read any reference
>> I've provided.
>>
>> I provided, what, oh, maybe about a dozen reliable
>> references that back up
>> my point of view, and you provided, oh, um, what? Zero, right?
>>
>> You think I didn't know that was going to happen, oh, maybe
>> a decade ago?
>> There's a reason I said that we own the intuition of
>> monkeys, Xeno.
>>
>> And there's a reason I said that this intuition is a
>> terrible thing indeed.
>> People who trust only in their intuition are only right by
>> pure chance.
>>
>> It's people who trust in facts who are right more often than
>> they're wrong.
>> And you don't want to see any facts (you didn't even _read_
>> them, in fact).
>>
>> That means it's impossible to carry on an adult conversation
>> with you on
>> this topic. It's like asking someone to stop believing in
>> the Easter Bunny.
>>
>> Let's just leave it at that because I can provide ten
>> thousand factual
>> references that the earth isn't flat and there will _still_
>> be people like
>> you and Steve and Alan Baker who will emphatically claim it
>> _is_ flat.
>>
>> Not only that it's flat, but they'll find some 30-second
>> YouTube video of a
>> twelve year old kid in NJ who, with just a yardstick,
>> "proved" it's flat.
>>
>> So let's cut our losses.
>> You think the earth is flat, and you have Alan Baker on your
>> side.
>> Steve too.
>>
>> All I have on my side is every reputable brake expert in the
>> industry.

Where "reputable" is redefined as "agrees with me".

>> I won't provide you with any more facts because you don't
>> want to see them.
>
> f you're so certain about that why not offer to pay parts and service
> charges for a warped brake rotor?

Very good question.

:-)

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5k9n9$fah$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32249&group=comp.mobile.android#32249

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!3PLzD/rb74ta/CXxNcmbeA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 01:45:52 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:45 UTC

AMuzi wrote:

> If you're so certain about that why not offer to pay parts
> and service charges for a warped brake rotor?

If that's supposed to be a question, I readily admit I don't know what
you're asking.

Can you please rephrase the question so that I can understand what you're
asking me to respond to?

Thanks!

Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5kag4$d1l$2@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making
a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the
Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 17:58:44 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:58 UTC

On 2022-05-12 5:45 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> If you're so certain about that why not offer to pay parts and service
>> charges for a warped brake rotor?
>
> If that's supposed to be a question, I readily admit I don't know what
> you're asking.
>
> Can you please rephrase the question so that I can understand what you're
> asking me to respond to?
>
> Thanks!

And he's not just suddenly playing dumb, folks!

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<je63d4F5gk0U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 13:59:30 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Fri, 13 May 2022 03:59 UTC

On 12/5/2022 11:05 pm, sms wrote:
> On 5/11/2022 6:29 PM, Xeno wrote:
>> On 12/5/2022 6:01 am, Alan wrote:
>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiuwzN2mQuA&t=122s>
>>
>> Yep, done that, seen the warp, many, many times!
>>
>> I liked the way he did that final non-directional finish. I used to do
>> it the hard way, that looked easy in comparison.
>
> Good video
>
> Andy Burnelli/Arlen Holder/Dean Hoffman/Nil/Robin Goodfellow/more is
> wrong of courseâ„¢.
>
> Those look like pretty thick rotors. The warping had to be pretty minor
> in order to machine them flat. Most of the rotors these days are too
> thin to machine and are just replaced as part of brake job.

Yeah, that's been the trend for quite some time now. Rotors are
considered as *disposable* as the pads themselves.
>
> There is one train of thought that turning sufficiently thick, flat,
> non-warped, rotors, is unnecessary and that after a short while the pads
> will break in to match the minor imperfections in the rotor, with just a
> little extra wear on the pads. "If your rotor surface is smooth there is

Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother machining
rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test, measurements look
ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads, then do a bed in process

> generally no need to have them turned. If, however, you have warping, or
> rough spots they should be turned, or replaced if need be. This is
> easily detected if you have a solid, non-pulsing braking action when you
> press down on the pedal,"
> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 14:08:46 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Fri, 13 May 2022 04:08 UTC

On 13/5/2022 9:25 am, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-05-12 4:01 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> sms wrote:
>>
>>> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.
>>>
>>
>> People like Steve are no different than people who believe the earth
>> is flat.
>> Steve actually _believes_ what he writes.... and yet... And yet... and
>> yet... Steve doesn't even _read_ what the experts say about it.
>>
>> As a result, Steve will _never_ (ever!) find a reputable expert to
>> back up his
>> claims that the earth is, dammit, flat.
>>
>> But... he can _always_ find a salesperson selling bullshit to back him
>> up.
>> Which is what Steve did in this thread (and with his four URLs):
>> <https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/dear-car-talk/warped-brake-discs-are-bad-news>
>>
>> <https://brakeexperts.com/what-causes-brake-rotors-to-warp/>
>> <https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/cars/click-and-clack/story/2019-05-02/warped-rotors-give-this-pony-the-shakes>
>>
>> <https://www.carsdirect.com/car-repair/when-should-you-turn-brake-rotors>.
>>
>>
>> Notice Steve can't find even a _single_ expert backing up his claims
>> that the earth is flat simply because he found people who said so.
>
> Empiricism trumps your bullshit, Arlen:
>
> 'In the past people here have said that rotors don't "warp". That
> shaking or shuddering during braking is caused by brake pad deposits.
> This is on my lathe right now. You can see the spots where the bit is
> not even touching the rotor. Definitely NOT pad deposits. The bits are
> missing the rotor on opposite sides like you would think it would if a
> rotor was warped. Thoughts?'
>
> <https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/warped-rotor-pics.309555/>

Yep, very familiar with that scenario. Been there, seen that, done that!

;-)

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 18:21:46 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:21 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother machining
> rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test, measurements look
> ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads, then do a bed in process

Hi Xeno,
On _that_ topic alone, have you ever seen a typical rotor "gouge" spec?
I have.

That spec is often hard to find, but when found, it's shocking (to me).
For two reasons.

The first is that the spec allows _huge_ gouges (imho).
And the second is I've never seen a rotor _that_ gouged.

No big deal. I'd junk any rotor that doesn't meet spec w/o a second thought
since a rotor is a safety item that costs only about $15 to $35 per wheel.

While I'm not saying gouges can't happen, I've _never_ failed a rotor on
its gouge spec in my life (however I only replace my own rotors of course).

My question to you are the two above:
a. Have you seen how (seemingly) huge a gouge has to be to fail spec?
b. How often have _you_ seen a rotor gouged enough to fail that spec?

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:25:35 -0700
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 by: Alan - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:25 UTC

On 2022-05-13 10:21 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother
>> machining rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test,
>> measurements look ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads,
>> then do a bed in process
>
> Hi Xeno,
> On _that_ topic alone, have you ever seen a typical rotor "gouge" spec?
> I have.

We can certainly see what you wanted to change the topic.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 18:40:03 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:40 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> Yeah, that's been the trend for quite some time now. Rotors are
> considered as *disposable* as the pads themselves.

Hi Xeno,
(See the question in the bottom of the introductory explanation below.)

A _lot_ of morons (like Steve) "claim" to need to replace rotors with every
pad change, and even more morons opine that they simply replace rotors at
every second pad change, and even more morons than those prevalent types,
ask on the car forums the dumbest question possible, which is
Q: *How do you know when to replace your rotors?*

The reason all those three are the brain child of morons is that you
replace a rotor when it no longer meets the spec, and, as you note below,
the spec contains a few simple components, _all_ of which require tools.

Just as Dunning & Kruger wondered what made the bank robber think the lemon
juice would work, and just as I wonder what makes iKooks believe their
fabrications of functionality would work, I have wondered for years why
people ask the dumbest "what oil" type of questions on car forums.

Over the decades, I've realized the "what oil" questions and the when do I
replace rotors questions are born of the exact same "Steve" mentality.
1. They don't know the spec, and,
2. They don't own the tools to _measure_ to the spec.

It's really that simple, don't you think?
Q: When do you replace rotors?
A: When they no longer meet the spec.

Q: On rotors, how do you know when they no longer meet the spec?
A: You measure them.

Q: What tools do you need to measure rotors?
A: The most often missing tool is a dial gauge with a good sturdy mount.
The second most often missing tool is a simple one-inch mic.
The third most often missing tool is a gouge depth and width gauge.

The tool I don't yet own is the latter (as I've never needed it).
So I use a coin of the correct width but that's not the "right" tool.

Q: What tool do _you_ use to measure the depth and width of a gouge?
A: Xeno?

>> There is one train of thought that turning sufficiently thick, flat,
>> non-warped, rotors, is unnecessary and that after a short while the pads
>> will break in to match the minor imperfections in the rotor, with just a
>> little extra wear on the pads. "If your rotor surface is smooth there is

> Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother machining
> rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test, measurements look
> ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads, then do a bed in process

Given rotors cost about what it costs to machine them (and, in my last
clutch replacement, flywheel machining was $60 while a brand new flywheel
was only about $80), I have never bothered to have _my_ rotors machined.

However, I've also never taken a car to a mechanic in my life for something
as trivial as a four wheel brake job, which is just about the easiest job
anyone can do at home if they have the most basic of the simplest of tools.

The bed in process is critical in terms of what people call 'warp' (which
is simply that the car does funny things, which I won't call 'shudder' or
'judder' or 'shimmy' or 'pulsations' since people call _everything_ "warp".

However, that bed in process takes an appreciable amount of time,
especially in areas like those where I live where the highway is nowhere
near, and it's jam packed during all hours of the day with traffic.

My question to you, Xeno, and to any others who get brakes done by the
professional mechanics, is this simple but very important question:

Q: Do professional mechanics take the car on a drive to do proper bedding?

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
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 by: Alan - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:46 UTC

On 2022-05-13 10:40 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> Yeah, that's been the trend for quite some time now. Rotors are
>> considered as *disposable* as the pads themselves.

This text does not exist in the post to which you're replying, Arlen...

....so now you're just a liar.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nos...@nospam.com (dan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 16:00:41 -0200
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 by: dan - Fri, 13 May 2022 18:00 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 10:25:35 -0700, Alan wrote:

> On 2022-05-13 10:21 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> Xeno wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother
>>> machining rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test,
>>> measurements look ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads,
>>> then do a bed in process
>>
>> Hi Xeno,
>> On _that_ topic alone, have you ever seen a typical rotor "gouge" spec?
>> I have.
>
> We can certainly see what you wanted to change the topic.

It shirly looks like he was replying to what Xeno said about surface
gouges.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5mah9$4ph$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Alan - Fri, 13 May 2022 19:11 UTC

On 2022-05-13 11:00 a.m., dan wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 10:25:35 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>> On 2022-05-13 10:21 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>> Xeno wrote:
>>>
>>>> Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother
>>>> machining rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test,
>>>> measurements look ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads,
>>>> then do a bed in process
>>>
>>> Hi Xeno,
>>> On _that_ topic alone, have you ever seen a typical rotor "gouge" spec?
>>> I have.
>>
>> We can certainly see what you wanted to change the topic.
>
> It shirly looks like he was replying to what Xeno said about surface
> gouges.

And leaving out that the conversation was about rotors warping...

....without having the class to admit he was wrong.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nos...@nospam.com (dan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 21:57:14 -0200
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 by: dan - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:57 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 12:11:35 -0700, Alan wrote:

> And leaving out that the conversation was about rotors warping...

There's no law requiring repeating everything that was already said.
It's typical & normal & courteous to NOT repeat everything that was said.
Look it up.
Common netiquette is you only quote the few lines you're responding to.

Those who disagree are always the trolls who have their own agenda.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Alan - Sat, 14 May 2022 02:11 UTC

On 2022-05-13 4:57 p.m., dan wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 12:11:35 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>
>> And leaving out that the conversation was about rotors warping...
>
> There's no law requiring repeating everything that was already said.

"Law"? Of course not.

> It's typical & normal & courteous to NOT repeat everything that was said.

Is it typical, normal, and courteous to repeatedly call someone a liar
(essentially)...

....and then when it shown that you are clearly wrong to move on without
apologizing?

> Look it up.
> Common netiquette is you only quote the few lines you're responding to.

Common etiquette says to acknowledge when you've been shown to be wrong.

>
> Those who disagree are always the trolls who have their own agenda.

I don't disagree.

But my problem was him snipping the lines.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nos...@nospam.com (dan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: dan - Sat, 14 May 2022 02:27 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 19:11:39 -0700, Alan wrote:

> But my problem was him snipping the lines.

You're nothing but a whiny troll.
Go away.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Alan - Sat, 14 May 2022 02:47 UTC

On 2022-05-13 7:27 p.m., dan wrote:
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 19:11:39 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>
>> But my problem was him snipping the lines.
>
> You're nothing but a whiny troll.
> Go away.

Nah.

I think I'll stay.

:-)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32285&group=comp.mobile.android#32285

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 03:13:52 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Miskatonic U
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 by: Lewis - Sat, 14 May 2022 03:13 UTC

In message <t5mah9$4ph$1@dont-email.me> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> On 2022-05-13 11:00 a.m., dan wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 May 2022 10:25:35 -0700, Alan wrote:
>>> We can certainly see what you wanted to change the topic.
>> It shirly looks like he was replying to what Xeno said about surface
>> gouges.

> And leaving out that the conversation was about rotors warping...

> ...without having the class to admit he was wrong.

Arleen is a lying sack of shit without the slightest hint of class.

Please, every time you're going to reply to him imagine that little
chubby he gets and think again. Do you really want to be responsible for
the only sexual stimulation that obese naked troglodyte gets in his
life? Please, think of that image first.

--
Polexia: Let's deflower the kid.

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