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computers / comp.mobile.android / Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

SubjectAuthor
* re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovVanguardLH
|`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
| `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |    `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | || `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||  +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexKen Olson
|  | | ||   |    | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | ||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   |    | |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |    | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |    |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   |      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |       `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |        `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |         `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |          `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |           `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |            `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |             `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |              `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||       `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |  | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  |  `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | |  |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |     |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    | `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli

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Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<je8qseFldudU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32286&group=comp.mobile.android#32286

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:52:28 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5m42i$1ad2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Sat, 14 May 2022 04:52 UTC

On 14/5/2022 3:21 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother
>> machining rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test,
>> measurements look ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads,
>> then do a bed in process
>
> Hi Xeno,
> On _that_ topic alone, have you ever seen a typical rotor "gouge" spec?

Can't recall. I just looked at the rotor gouge and, if *I* considered it
too deep, into the bin it went. You have to realise that *any gouge*
reduces the surface area for braking so if it doesn't machine out, it
will take ages for the pads to fully bed, if at all, and will lead to
unbalanced braking if the gouges on each side of the car aren't balanced.

> I have.
> That spec is often hard to find, but when found, it's shocking (to me).
> For two reasons.
>
> The first is that the spec allows _huge_ gouges (imho).

I use my own judgement.

> And the second is I've never seen a rotor _that_ gouged.

I have seen terribly gouged rotors - and I've binned them.
>
> No big deal. I'd junk any rotor that doesn't meet spec w/o a second thought
> since a rotor is a safety item that costs only about $15 to $35 per wheel.

Pre-cisely!
>
> While I'm not saying gouges can't happen, I've _never_ failed a rotor on
> its gouge spec in my life (however I only replace my own rotors of course).
>
> My question to you are the two above:
> a. Have you seen how (seemingly) huge a gouge has to be to fail spec?

Again, I use my own judgement.

> b. How often have _you_ seen a rotor gouged enough to fail that spec?

I have had heaps of rotors, and drums, fail my judgemental spec.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<je8rq9FlircU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32287&group=comp.mobile.android#32287

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 15:08:23 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5m54r$1r34$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Sat, 14 May 2022 05:08 UTC

On 14/5/2022 3:40 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> Yeah, that's been the trend for quite some time now. Rotors are
>> considered as *disposable* as the pads themselves.
>
> Hi Xeno,
> (See the question in the bottom of the introductory explanation below.)
>
> A _lot_ of morons (like Steve) "claim" to need to replace rotors with every
> pad change, and even more morons opine that they simply replace rotors at
> every second pad change, and even more morons than those prevalent types,
> ask on the car forums the dumbest question possible, which is Q: *How do
> you know when to replace your rotors?*

I have often seen discs worn beyond limits by the end of the second set
of pads. When to replace? When they don't clean up on a lathe, are
undersized, or I use my judgement to assess that gouges, etc may cause
bed-in and braking balance issues. After you've done a few hundred, you
soon get a feel for what works ok and what doesn't.
>
> The reason all those three are the brain child of morons is that you
> replace a rotor when it no longer meets the spec, and, as you note below,
> the spec contains a few simple components, _all_ of which require tools.

And, because I was working *in the trade*, and later teaching my trade
in a college, I always had access to the required tools.
>
> Just as Dunning & Kruger wondered what made the bank robber think the lemon
> juice would work, and just as I wonder what makes iKooks believe their
> fabrications of functionality would work, I have wondered for years why
> people ask the dumbest "what oil" type of questions on car forums.
>
> Over the decades, I've realized the "what oil" questions and the when do I
> replace rotors questions are born of the exact same "Steve" mentality.
> 1. They don't know the spec, and, 2. They don't own the tools to
> _measure_ to the spec.
>
> It's really that simple, don't you think?
> Q: When do you replace rotors?
> A: When they no longer meet the spec.
>
> Q: On rotors, how do you know when they no longer meet the spec?
> A: You measure them.
>
> Q: What tools do you need to measure rotors?
> A: The most often missing tool is a dial gauge with a good sturdy mount.
>    The second most often missing tool is a simple one-inch mic.

A one inch mic is *useless* if it is of the standard form. You *need* a
disc micrometer whereby the bottom of the disc surface can also be
measured as well as near the periphery. After all, one of the checks
required is a *taper measurement*.

>    The third most often missing tool is a gouge depth and width gauge.

Again, I use the disc mic for depth but, whilst in the trade, I used my
own judgement.
>
> The tool I don't yet own is the latter (as I've never needed it).
> So I use a coin of the correct width but that's not the "right" tool.
>
> Q: What tool do _you_ use to measure the depth and width of a gouge?
> A: Xeno?

The brake disc micrometer designed for the purpose of course. But, as I
said in another post, with gouges I use my own judgement.
>
>>> There is one train of thought that turning sufficiently thick, flat,
>>> non-warped, rotors, is unnecessary and that after a short while the
>>> pads will break in to match the minor imperfections in the rotor,
>>> with just a little extra wear on the pads. "If your rotor surface is
>>> smooth there is
>
>> Indeed, I need to see a very overt issue before I would bother
>> machining rotors. If you don't feel the symptoms on a road test,
>> measurements look ok and the surfaces aren't gouged, I just fit pads,
>> then do a bed in process
>
> Given rotors cost about what it costs to machine them (and, in my last
> clutch replacement, flywheel machining was $60 while a brand new flywheel
> was only about $80), I have never bothered to have _my_ rotors machined.

That is what happens nowadays. Back in the day, some rotors were
damnably expensive - especially those integral with the hub. You had no
choice but to maximise their lifespan whenever possible.
>
> However, I've also never taken a car to a mechanic in my life for something
> as trivial as a four wheel brake job, which is just about the easiest job
> anyone can do at home if they have the most basic of the simplest of tools.
>
> The bed in process is critical in terms of what people call 'warp' (which
> is simply that the car does funny things, which I won't call 'shudder' or
> 'judder' or 'shimmy' or 'pulsations' since people call _everything_ "warp".
>
> However, that bed in process takes an appreciable amount of time,
> especially in areas like those where I live where the highway is nowhere
> near, and it's jam packed during all hours of the day with traffic.
>
> My question to you, Xeno, and to any others who get brakes done by the
> professional mechanics, is this simple but very important question:
>
> Q: Do professional mechanics take the car on a drive to do proper bedding?

Short answer, yes. Well, I used to! Not only was I taught to do that, I
saw the need.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 14 May 2022 05:55 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> But, as I
> said in another post, with gouges I use my own judgement.

Almost nobody knows the spec for gouges for any given rotor in my
experience, and, when the spec id finally found (if found), it's shocking
how _huge_ a gouge has to be to fail a rotor.

They're not really hard to measure though, simply because of the spec.

Those who have never seen the spec for gouges wouldn't know that.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 14 May 2022 05:57 UTC

Xeno wrote:

>> b. How often have _you_ seen a rotor gouged enough to fail that spec?
>
> I have had heaps of rotors, and drums, fail my judgemental spec.

I have only about a half dozen old rotors in my garage in a heap.
They're useful for weights, but I was hoping to find a use for them.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 06:58:09 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 14 May 2022 05:58 UTC

Lewis wrote:

> Arleen is a lying sack of shit without the slightest hint of class.
>
> Please, every time you're going to reply to him imagine that little
> chubby he gets and think again. Do you really want to be responsible for
> the only sexual stimulation that obese naked troglodyte gets in his
> life? Please, think of that image first.

Hehhehheh... Lewis _hates_ that he knows nothing about the topic.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 16:07:55 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Sat, 14 May 2022 06:07 UTC

On 14/5/2022 3:57 pm, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> b. How often have _you_ seen a rotor gouged enough to fail that spec?
>>
>> I have had heaps of rotors, and drums, fail my judgemental spec.
>
> I have only about a half dozen old rotors in my garage in a heap.
> They're useful for weights, but I was hoping to find a use for them.

Recycle them - scrap iron.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Alan - Sat, 14 May 2022 07:50 UTC

On 2022-05-13 10:58 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Lewis wrote:
>
>> Arleen is a lying sack of shit without the slightest hint of class.
>>
>> Please, every time you're going to reply to him imagine that little
>> chubby he gets and think again. Do you really want to be responsible for
>> the only sexual stimulation that obese naked troglodyte gets in his
>> life? Please, think of that image first.
>
> Hehhehheh... Lewis _hates_ that he knows nothing about the topic.

The irony.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: sms - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:01 UTC

On 5/13/2022 10:08 PM, Xeno wrote:

<snip>

> I have often seen discs worn beyond limits by the end of the second set
> of pads. When to replace? When they don't clean up on a lathe, are
> undersized, or I use my judgement to assess that gouges, etc may cause
> bed-in and braking balance issues. After you've done a few hundred, you
> soon get a feel for what works ok and what doesn't.

It depends on the vehicle and how thick the rotors are. I recall my
1970's to 1990's VWs that had very thick rotors. The late 1970's was the
time when disc brakes were becoming standard equipment even on
lower-priced cars. Those rotors could be resurfaced many times. It was
the pads, on that first VW, that were really too small and wore out quickly.

Unfortunately, in the effort to increase fuel economy, manufacturers
made rotors much thinner, and essentially disposable. You could get by
with replacing pads only, but you couldn't resurface the thin rotors,
there just wasn't enough metal (which is also the reason that they
warped so readily). When a car dealer's service department advertises
low prices for brake jobs and it includes "resurfacing rotors" you can
be pretty, sure that if it's a recent vintage car, that you'll get a
call insisting that the rotors need to be replaced at an extra $150 or so.

Andy Burnelli can learn about rotors and resurfacing here:
<https://www.repairsmith.com/i/blog/resurface-rotors/>

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:25:16 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:25 UTC

sms wrote:

> Andy Burnelli can learn about rotors and resurfacing here:

Steve,
You make something as simple as a spec into some kind of voodoo magic.

Every statement from you shows you have _never_ done a proper brake job in
your entire life, which is why you posted total bullshit about rotor warp.

Rotors don't warp.
They can't.

You need in excess of 2300 degrees F (brake fluid boils at 1/4 that temp!).
The brake system would be marshmallows by the time rotors got hot enough.

The _only_ way to know when to fail a rotor is when it fails the spec.
Period.

And the best way to tell if it fails the spec is either to _see_ cracks in
the rotor (or some other _major_ failure indicator), or, to measure it.

Only you and Alan Baker could (or would) possibly claim otherwise.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5oasf$inc$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 14:30:15 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:30 UTC

Xeno wrote:

>> I have only about a half dozen old rotors in my garage in a heap.
>> They're useful for weights, but I was hoping to find a use for them.
>
> Recycle them - scrap iron.

Hi Xeno,

I assess you as the most knowledgeable here (certainly you have more
experience than I do); however I will point out you dodged both issues.

1. You dodged the issue that brake rotors can't possibly warp
simply because the 2300 degrees needed would make the rest
of the components disintegrate (e.g., brake fluid boils at
less than 1/4 of that temperature - and you know this).

2. You dodged the issue that you fail a brake rotor on one
condition and one condition only - which is if it no longer
meets the spec.

On the specific spec of gouge depth and width, I also noticed you dodged
that, which tells me you've never looked at a spec sheet in your life.

Don't feel badly about that.
Almost nobody does.

Everyone _says_ they do.
But they lie.

Like you did.
And that's OK.

I'm not _expecting_ anyone here to know what I know about brakes.
Not even you, even as I defer to your mass of experience over mine.

I just tell it like it is.
Most people bullshit.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5oml4$m1r$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 09:50:44 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sat, 14 May 2022 16:50 UTC

On 2022-05-14 6:30 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> I have only about a half dozen old rotors in my garage in a heap.
>>> They're useful for weights, but I was hoping to find a use for them.
>>
>> Recycle them - scrap iron.
>
> Hi Xeno,
>
> I assess you as the most knowledgeable here (certainly you have more
> experience than I do); however I will point out you dodged both issues.
>
> 1. You dodged the issue that brake rotors can't possibly warp
>   simply because the 2300 degrees needed would make the rest
>   of the components disintegrate (e.g., brake fluid boils at
>   less than 1/4 of that temperature - and you know this).
>

He didn't dodge the issue and neither did I.

He stated from personal experience that he had seen warped rotors and I
presented video that conclusively showed warped rotors.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5omvf$onn$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Alan - Sat, 14 May 2022 16:56 UTC

On 2022-05-14 6:25 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> sms wrote:
>
>> Andy Burnelli can learn about rotors and resurfacing here:
>
> Steve,
> You make something as simple as a spec into some kind of voodoo magic.
>
> Every statement from you shows you have _never_ done a proper brake job in
> your entire life, which is why you posted total bullshit about rotor warp.
>
> Rotors don't warp.
> They can't.
> You need in excess of 2300 degrees F (brake fluid boils at 1/4 that temp!).
> The brake system would be marshmallows by the time rotors got hot enough.

<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fFY2MPylrS4>

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5on8f$qrq$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Alan - Sat, 14 May 2022 17:01 UTC

On 2022-05-14 6:30 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> I have only about a half dozen old rotors in my garage in a heap.
>>> They're useful for weights, but I was hoping to find a use for them.
>>
>> Recycle them - scrap iron.
>
> Hi Xeno,
>
> I assess you as the most knowledgeable here (certainly you have more
> experience than I do); however I will point out you dodged both issues.
>
> 1. You dodged the issue that brake rotors can't possibly warp
>   simply because the 2300 degrees needed would make the rest
>   of the components disintegrate (e.g., brake fluid boils at
>   less than 1/4 of that temperature - and you know this).

<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fFY2MPylrS4>

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5ormn$1sn8$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:17:20 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 14 May 2022 18:17 UTC

Xeno wrote:

>> On _that_ topic alone, have you ever seen a typical rotor "gouge" spec?
>
> Can't recall.

Don't worry.
I knew the answer before I asked it of you.

> I just looked at the rotor gouge and, if *I* considered it
> too deep, into the bin it went.

I understand.
I know all about what people do.

> You have to realise that *any gouge*
> reduces the surface area for braking so if it doesn't machine out, it
> will take ages for the pads to fully bed, if at all, and will lead to
> unbalanced braking if the gouges on each side of the car aren't balanced.

It's a basic question I ask of everyone who claims to measure rotors.
They never even _know_ what the gouge spec is.

>> I have.
>> That spec is often hard to find, but when found, it's shocking (to me).
>> The first is that the spec allows _huge_ gouges (imho).
>
> I use my own judgement.

Trust me, I know what you're going to say on rotors before you do.

So don't worry.
I expected it.

>> And the second is I've never seen a rotor _that_ gouged.
>
> I have seen terribly gouged rotors - and I've binned them.

I have only replaced my own rotors (and that of my family), where I haven't
yet had to bin a rotor for anything other than for it being too thin.

BTW, you got the reason rotor thickness matters wrong too, but that's OK.
Everyone gets that wrong too, so I won't hold it against you.

>> No big deal. I'd junk any rotor that doesn't meet spec w/o a second thought
>> since a rotor is a safety item that costs only about $15 to $35 per wheel.
>
> Pre-cisely!

As I said, there is only one "proper" way to decide if a rotor needs to be
replaced, and it's _not_ what Steve said (he said every pad replacement or
every other pad - but that's just bullshit from people who talk bullshit).

Rest assured I know a _lot_ of morons out there say exactly what Steve does
but when you ask them the kinds of questions I've been asking you, they
fail the test instantly.

>> My question to you are the two above:
>> a. Have you seen how (seemingly) huge a gouge has to be to fail spec?
>
> Again, I use my own judgement.

I know. I knew that before I asked you.
Next time you work on rotors, ask the manufacturer for the spec.

My prediction is you'll be shocked at how huge a gouge has to be to fail.

>> b. How often have _you_ seen a rotor gouged enough to fail that spec?
>
> I have had heaps of rotors, and drums, fail my judgemental spec.

If they meet specs, I generally re-use them (unless they're for someone
else, and then, in that case, I often replace good rotors anyway, since I
don't know what kind of maintenance they will do in the future).

Luckily, in the USA, as long as you meet or exceed OEM specs, we can't get
an unsafe rotor, and we can't get an unsafe brake pad, nor an unsafe tire
(notwithstanding one-of-a-kind fuckups like the Firestone one of course).

But we can pay $50 per axle for crappy pads (e.g., EE) and we can pay $50
each for rotors (there are no crappy rotors), and we can pay $200 for
crappy tires (there are no unsafe tires), etc., if we don't know what we're
doing (or, more to the point, if we think "we get what we pay for").

In my humble experience, typical sedan & SUV rotors are something like $15
to $35 each, and typical FF or GG or even HH pads are about the same per
axle, and V-rated appropriate load index tires are almost always somewhere
around $75 to $100 each (depending of course on the size & type of tire).

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 09:06:55 -0500
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 by: AMuzi - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:06 UTC

On 5/14/2022 8:30 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> I have only about a half dozen old rotors in my garage in
>>> a heap.
>>> They're useful for weights, but I was hoping to find a
>>> use for them.
>>
>> Recycle them - scrap iron.
>
> Hi Xeno,
>
> I assess you as the most knowledgeable here (certainly you
> have more
> experience than I do); however I will point out you dodged
> both issues.
>
> 1. You dodged the issue that brake rotors can't possibly warp
> simply because the 2300 degrees needed would make the rest
> of the components disintegrate (e.g., brake fluid boils at
> less than 1/4 of that temperature - and you know this).
>
> 2. You dodged the issue that you fail a brake rotor on one
> condition and one condition only - which is if it no longer
> meets the spec.
>
> On the specific spec of gouge depth and width, I also
> noticed you dodged
> that, which tells me you've never looked at a spec sheet in
> your life.
>
> Don't feel badly about that.
> Almost nobody does.
>
> Everyone _says_ they do.
> But they lie.
>
> Like you did.
> And that's OK.
>
> I'm not _expecting_ anyone here to know what I know about
> brakes.
> Not even you, even as I defer to your mass of experience
> over mine.
>
> I just tell it like it is.
> Most people bullshit.

Differential thermal expansion does not require entering the
plastic zone for the entire piece.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5rro3$1bdd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 22:36:27 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 15 May 2022 21:36 UTC

AMuzi wrote:

> Differential thermal expansion does not require entering the
> plastic zone for the entire piece.

Finally someone on this newsgroup is using their brain.

It's disconcerting that most people completely ignored the dozen references
I provided and that they provided, in turn, a 20-second youtube from a kid
in NJ which shows absolutely nothing whatsoever - and yet they think it
does.

They may as well claim the earth is flat in a 20 second video from a kid in
NJ who _proves_ it beyond any doubt in their (strange) low-IQ brains.

Anyway, Amuzi brings up an _excellent_ point that you don't likely need the
2300 degrees it takes to _begin_ melting a typical cast iron rotor.

But bear in mind even the best brake fluid boils off at well under one
quarter of that temperate, and that the rubber in the braking system would
be marshmallows anywhere near the "zone of thermal expansion" Amuzi alludes
to, and we have what appears to be a situation which requires more data.

At what temperature does a rotor 'soften' is key here, I think, isn't it?
Isn't that what Amuzi is alluding to?

Certainly if you leave the rotors on a steel rack at a thousand degrees for
ten hours (which we learned in the paper Vic Smith referenced), they will
"increase" their "distortion"; so I _believe_ what Amuzi is alluding to.

However, nobody here is going to claim that their rotors spent ten hours at
a thousand degrees and _then_ they declared that they warped, right?

The brake system components (piston gaskets, fluid lines, fluid, etc.)
would be marshmallows at even the "low" temperature of a thousand degrees.

In summary, I get it that people _believe_ their rotors warped, and yet,
I've _never_ seen anyone who said that who actually _measured_ it, and,
worse, I found a dozen experts who claim it's impossible given the
temperature required is greater than the brake system can handle.

If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion") happens at a lower
temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm all ears.

Give me a fact, and I'll read it.
Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their belief system?
--
And no, a 20 second video of a kid in NJ making claims is not reliable.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5rs92$me2$2@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 14:45:06 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 15 May 2022 21:45 UTC

On 2022-05-15 2:36 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> Differential thermal expansion does not require entering the plastic
>> zone for the entire piece.
>
> Finally someone on this newsgroup is using their brain.
>
> It's disconcerting that most people completely ignored the dozen references
> I provided and that they provided, in turn, a 20-second youtube from a kid
> in NJ which shows absolutely nothing whatsoever - and yet they think it
> does.
>
> They may as well claim the earth is flat in a 20 second video from a kid in
> NJ who _proves_ it beyond any doubt in their (strange) low-IQ brains.
>
> Anyway, Amuzi brings up an _excellent_ point that you don't likely need the
> 2300 degrees it takes to _begin_ melting a typical cast iron rotor.
>
> But bear in mind even the best brake fluid boils off at well under one
> quarter of that temperate, and that the rubber in the braking system would
> be marshmallows anywhere near the "zone of thermal expansion" Amuzi alludes
> to, and we have what appears to be a situation which requires more data.
>
> At what temperature does a rotor 'soften' is key here, I think, isn't it?
> Isn't that what Amuzi is alluding to?
>
> Certainly if you leave the rotors on a steel rack at a thousand degrees for
> ten hours (which we learned in the paper Vic Smith referenced), they will
> "increase" their "distortion"; so I _believe_ what Amuzi is alluding to.
>
> However, nobody here is going to claim that their rotors spent ten hours at
> a thousand degrees and _then_ they declared that they warped, right?
>
> The brake system components (piston gaskets, fluid lines, fluid, etc.)
> would be marshmallows at even the "low" temperature of a thousand degrees.
>
> In summary, I get it that people _believe_ their rotors warped, and yet,
> I've _never_ seen anyone who said that who actually _measured_ it, and,
> worse, I found a dozen experts who claim it's impossible given the
> temperature required is greater than the brake system can handle.
>
> If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion") happens at a lower
> temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm all ears.
>
> Give me a fact, and I'll read it.
> Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their belief system?

How about videos of warped rotors?

Will those do?

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 22:46:00 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 15 May 2022 21:46 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion") happens at a lower
> temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm all ears.
>
> Give me a fact, and I'll read it.
> Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their belief system?

I realized belatedly that I didn't point out that the temperature it takes
to "soften" rotors only has to be "locally" applied for what Amuzi is
hypothesizing to occur, to occur.

So, for example, you can perhaps get to the 2300 degrees it takes to begin
softening rotors locally, but bear in mind rotors are _designed_ to cool
off, so it's not going to be easily done, if it's even possible to be done.

I get it that almost everyone trusts their intuition more than they will
ever trust in facts, where I repeat I know Quantum Mechanics, where
_nothing_ is intuitive. Trust me on that.

We humans own the intuition of monkeys.
That serves us well sometimes - but it serves us poorly most of the time.

The reason it serves us poorly is that, sure, it "sounds good" that rotors
would warp, especially when most of the time replacing or machining the
rotors "solves" the warp, so, to most morons, it's intuitive it warped.

But the facts remain that you need an astoundingly huge temperature,
whether applied locally or not, to force a rotor to deform like that.

The brake system can't handle that temperature.

There are a few reasons for that, one of which is it never happens, but the
more important reason is that the system is _designed_ to cool itself off.

What I'm fighting here is the fact I'm not used to dealing with the hoi
polloi who believe in a 20 second YouTube video of basically nothing,
without even _reading_ the dozen or so reliable reference links I cited.

I'm not saying Amuzi is wrong, by the way - since his premise is valid that
locally, the deformation temperature point might be reached in a typical
braking system under duress...

But what we need now is _science_ backing up his supposition.
If you post it, I'll read it.

More to the point, as with Vic Smith's reference, if I read it, I'll at
least grasp what it says (using basic adult cognitive skills God gave me).
--
That's what separates me from the morons.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5s175$p9k$5@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 16:09:24 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sun, 15 May 2022 23:09 UTC

On 2022-05-15 2:46 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion") happens at a
>> lower
>> temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm all ears.
>>
>> Give me a fact, and I'll read it.
>> Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their belief system?
>
> I realized belatedly that I didn't point out that the temperature it takes
> to "soften" rotors only has to be "locally" applied for what Amuzi is
> hypothesizing to occur, to occur.

Metals don't need to "soften" to undergo change due to relief of stress.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5s3dt$6qf$1@dont-email.me>

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 18:47:01 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <t5rro3$1bdd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: AMuzi - Sun, 15 May 2022 23:47 UTC

On 5/15/2022 4:36 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> Differential thermal expansion does not require entering
>> the plastic zone for the entire piece.
>
> Finally someone on this newsgroup is using their brain.
>
> It's disconcerting that most people completely ignored the
> dozen references
> I provided and that they provided, in turn, a 20-second
> youtube from a kid
> in NJ which shows absolutely nothing whatsoever - and yet
> they think it
> does.
>
> They may as well claim the earth is flat in a 20 second
> video from a kid in
> NJ who _proves_ it beyond any doubt in their (strange)
> low-IQ brains.
>
> Anyway, Amuzi brings up an _excellent_ point that you don't
> likely need the
> 2300 degrees it takes to _begin_ melting a typical cast iron
> rotor.
>
> But bear in mind even the best brake fluid boils off at well
> under one
> quarter of that temperate, and that the rubber in the
> braking system would
> be marshmallows anywhere near the "zone of thermal
> expansion" Amuzi alludes
> to, and we have what appears to be a situation which
> requires more data.
>
> At what temperature does a rotor 'soften' is key here, I
> think, isn't it?
> Isn't that what Amuzi is alluding to?
>
> Certainly if you leave the rotors on a steel rack at a
> thousand degrees for
> ten hours (which we learned in the paper Vic Smith
> referenced), they will
> "increase" their "distortion"; so I _believe_ what Amuzi is
> alluding to.
>
> However, nobody here is going to claim that their rotors
> spent ten hours at
> a thousand degrees and _then_ they declared that they
> warped, right?
>
> The brake system components (piston gaskets, fluid lines,
> fluid, etc.)
> would be marshmallows at even the "low" temperature of a
> thousand degrees.
>
> In summary, I get it that people _believe_ their rotors
> warped, and yet,
> I've _never_ seen anyone who said that who actually
> _measured_ it, and,
> worse, I found a dozen experts who claim it's impossible
> given the
> temperature required is greater than the brake system can
> handle.
>
> If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion")
> happens at a lower
> temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm
> all ears.
>
> Give me a fact, and I'll read it.
> Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their
> belief system?

Brake pads are thermal insulators so whatever is going on at
the rotor doesn't necessarily melt rubber bits or boil brake
fluid. There's also ample airflow and space between rotor
and other components. Even brake shoe holders have minimal
contact with calipers.

Also, out in the world, boiling brake fluid is virtually
unknown but warped rotors, while not commonplace, are
regularly noted in brake service.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5s3oj$8mo$1@dont-email.me>

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 18:52:44 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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In-Reply-To: <t5rro3$1bdd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: AMuzi - Sun, 15 May 2022 23:52 UTC

On 5/15/2022 4:36 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> Differential thermal expansion does not require entering
>> the plastic zone for the entire piece.
>
> Finally someone on this newsgroup is using their brain.
>
> It's disconcerting that most people completely ignored the
> dozen references
> I provided and that they provided, in turn, a 20-second
> youtube from a kid
> in NJ which shows absolutely nothing whatsoever - and yet
> they think it
> does.
>
> They may as well claim the earth is flat in a 20 second
> video from a kid in
> NJ who _proves_ it beyond any doubt in their (strange)
> low-IQ brains.
>
> Anyway, Amuzi brings up an _excellent_ point that you don't
> likely need the
> 2300 degrees it takes to _begin_ melting a typical cast iron
> rotor.
>
> But bear in mind even the best brake fluid boils off at well
> under one
> quarter of that temperate, and that the rubber in the
> braking system would
> be marshmallows anywhere near the "zone of thermal
> expansion" Amuzi alludes
> to, and we have what appears to be a situation which
> requires more data.
>
> At what temperature does a rotor 'soften' is key here, I
> think, isn't it?
> Isn't that what Amuzi is alluding to?
>
> Certainly if you leave the rotors on a steel rack at a
> thousand degrees for
> ten hours (which we learned in the paper Vic Smith
> referenced), they will
> "increase" their "distortion"; so I _believe_ what Amuzi is
> alluding to.
>
> However, nobody here is going to claim that their rotors
> spent ten hours at
> a thousand degrees and _then_ they declared that they
> warped, right?
>
> The brake system components (piston gaskets, fluid lines,
> fluid, etc.)
> would be marshmallows at even the "low" temperature of a
> thousand degrees.
>
> In summary, I get it that people _believe_ their rotors
> warped, and yet,
> I've _never_ seen anyone who said that who actually
> _measured_ it, and,
> worse, I found a dozen experts who claim it's impossible
> given the
> temperature required is greater than the brake system can
> handle.
>
> If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion")
> happens at a lower
> temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm
> all ears.
>
> Give me a fact, and I'll read it.
> Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their
> belief system?

further to my recent comments:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads20/REDHOTBR+7001334174918.jpg

Note relatively significant heat isolation of rotor braking
surface as compared to caliper, brake lines, wheel bearing etc.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5sbh0$iqn$1@dont-email.me>

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 19:05:18 -0700
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 by: sms - Mon, 16 May 2022 02:05 UTC

On 5/15/2022 4:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Note relatively significant heat isolation of rotor braking surface as
> compared to caliper, brake lines, wheel bearing etc.

Exactly. The idea that brake fluid would boil because the rotors got hot
displays a profound cluelessness about how vehicle braking systems function.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jeduuvFl2l5U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 13:32:45 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5rsa0$1ia4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Mon, 16 May 2022 03:32 UTC

On 16/5/2022 7:46 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion") happens at a
>> lower
>> temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm all ears.
>>
>> Give me a fact, and I'll read it.
>> Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their belief system?
>
> I realized belatedly that I didn't point out that the temperature it takes
> to "soften" rotors only has to be "locally" applied for what Amuzi is
> hypothesizing to occur, to occur.
>
> So, for example, you can perhaps get to the 2300 degrees it takes to begin
> softening rotors locally, but bear in mind rotors are _designed_ to cool
> off, so it's not going to be easily done, if it's even possible to be done.
>
> I get it that almost everyone trusts their intuition more than they will
> ever trust in facts, where I repeat I know Quantum Mechanics, where
> _nothing_ is intuitive. Trust me on that.

When people say *trust me*, it is far wiser to do the opposite.
>
> We humans own the intuition of monkeys.

You might, I don't. One of the things I do is *test* any *theory* I come
up with. Is the rotor warped? Intuition might tell you, my measurements
tell me what the reality is *on the ground*. I spent decades teaching
apprentices to *test* any diagnosis theories (or intuition) they come up
with. Never assume, just measure.

> That serves us well sometimes - but it serves us poorly most of the time.
>
> The reason it serves us poorly is that, sure, it "sounds good" that rotors
> would warp, especially when most of the time replacing or machining the
> rotors "solves" the warp, so, to most morons, it's intuitive it warped.

But to us *mechanics* who actually *measure the warp*, it is no longer
*intuitive*, it's *proven fact*. Facts are good.
>
> But the facts remain that you need an astoundingly huge temperature,
> whether applied locally or not, to force a rotor to deform like that.

Rotors never heat *uniformly*. In fact, it is the outer periphery that
will heat the most and it is the outer periphery that will begin to
deform first.
>
> The brake system can't handle that temperature.
>
> There are a few reasons for that, one of which is it never happens, but the
> more important reason is that the system is _designed_ to cool itself off.

Well done, and the cooling is *never even*.
>
> What I'm fighting here is the fact I'm not used to dealing with the hoi
> polloi who believe in a 20 second YouTube video of basically nothing,
> without even _reading_ the dozen or so reliable reference links I cited.

I don't consider myself to be a member of the hoi polloi and, in direct
contrast, I have seen and measured many such warped rotors as depicted
in the video. And, as in the video, I have *machined* countless rotors
*with warp* and measured, seen, heard and *felt* the same effects as
shown in that video and so many others.
>
> I'm not saying Amuzi is wrong, by the way - since his premise is valid that
> locally, the deformation temperature point might be reached in a typical
> braking system under duress...
> But what we need now is _science_ backing up his supposition.
> If you post it, I'll read it.
>
> More to the point, as with Vic Smith's reference, if I read it, I'll at
> least grasp what it says (using basic adult cognitive skills God gave me).

You screwed yourself on that last sentence.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jee002Fl85jU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 13:50:24 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5rro3$1bdd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Mon, 16 May 2022 03:50 UTC

On 16/5/2022 7:36 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> Differential thermal expansion does not require entering the plastic
>> zone for the entire piece.
>
> Finally someone on this newsgroup is using their brain.
>
> It's disconcerting that most people completely ignored the dozen references
> I provided and that they provided, in turn, a 20-second youtube from a kid
> in NJ which shows absolutely nothing whatsoever - and yet they think it
> does.
>
> They may as well claim the earth is flat in a 20 second video from a kid in
> NJ who _proves_ it beyond any doubt in their (strange) low-IQ brains.
>
> Anyway, Amuzi brings up an _excellent_ point that you don't likely need the
> 2300 degrees it takes to _begin_ melting a typical cast iron rotor.
>
> But bear in mind even the best brake fluid boils off at well under one
> quarter of that temperate, and that the rubber in the braking system would
> be marshmallows anywhere near the "zone of thermal expansion" Amuzi alludes
> to, and we have what appears to be a situation which requires more data.
>
> At what temperature does a rotor 'soften' is key here, I think, isn't it?
> Isn't that what Amuzi is alluding to?
>
> Certainly if you leave the rotors on a steel rack at a thousand degrees for
> ten hours (which we learned in the paper Vic Smith referenced), they will
> "increase" their "distortion"; so I _believe_ what Amuzi is alluding to.
>
> However, nobody here is going to claim that their rotors spent ten hours at
> a thousand degrees and _then_ they declared that they warped, right?
>
> The brake system components (piston gaskets, fluid lines, fluid, etc.)
> would be marshmallows at even the "low" temperature of a thousand degrees.
>
> In summary, I get it that people _believe_ their rotors warped, and yet,
> I've _never_ seen anyone who said that who actually _measured_ it, and,

You are being deliberately disingenuous here! I have told you that I
have *measured* warped rotors. It is very easy to prove that a rotor has
warped, all you need is a dial indicator with a magnetic base. You
measure the face and find the *low point*, mark it. Then you find the
*high* point, mark it and include the measurement. Use zero as the
reference datum for the low point. Then measure the obverse face of the
rotor in the same manner. If the zero reference on one side matches the
high side on the obverse, you have a *warped rotor*. You can do further
checks to ensure that something else is not causing the effect, the dial
indicator will serve for that purpose as well.

BTW, have you spent *any time* in an engineering shop at all?

> worse, I found a dozen experts who claim it's impossible given the
> temperature required is greater than the brake system can handle.
>
> If Amuzi is correct that warp (aka "thermal distortion") happens at a lower
> temperature than a thousand degrees for ten hours, then I'm all ears.

Irrelevant to the situation that occurs in a brake rotor. You are making
incorrect assumptions, bullshit assumptions in fact.
>
> Give me a fact, and I'll read it.

I have given you facts, they don't match your *belief system* so you
diss them out of hand.

> Does anyone have any reliable cites that back up their belief system?

I have been there, measured warped rotors. Your voodoo science doesn't
match the *reality* in which I live. That is a problem for you, not me.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 05:20 UTC

AMuzi wrote:

> further to my recent comments:
> http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads20/REDHOTBR+7001334174918.jpg

Destructive testing has its place in terms of gathering scientific data.

That situation was artificially created on a special "test jig for brakes"
by Porsche as shown here <https://seinesystems.com/BrakeFade.htm>
"Yellow color indicates rotor surface temperature of approximately 2000�F.
Fresh, heavy duty brake fluid boils at around 450-550�F."
Copyright 1997 Porsche Cars North America, Inc."

Nobody is saying you can't run an engine with the brakes held for what
constitutes dozens of miles continuously at 150mph & the rotors get red.
<https://www.pinterest.com/pin/glowing-exhaust-page-2-pelican-parts-technical-bbs--419819996486878798/>

Bugati did it here, for example at continuous speeds over 150 mph with the
calipers locked for minutes on end while measuring temperature & speed.
<https://youtu.be/QIc-9UuLSmg?t=161>

I _love_ destructive testing.
In fact, purposefully destructive testing is a wonderful thing to watch.

"We doctored the rotor to get it red hot to subject it to rapid cooling."
https://youtu.be/B6UM4P1c8mA?t=789
Sparks. Fire. Multiple dousing with water. Cracks galore.
Even the brake pads were melted and misshapen after that torture test.
Just like the reliable references I provided said would happen.

See also:
<https://rob928.home.xs4all.nl/928info/_home.htm>
<http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/639508-glowing-exhaust-2.html>
<https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/forum/general-forums/general-discussion/9945-red-hot-brakes#post568873>

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