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computers / comp.mobile.android / Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

SubjectAuthor
* re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovVanguardLH
|`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
| `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |    `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | || `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||  +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexKen Olson
|  | | ||   |    | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | ||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   |    | |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |    | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |    |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   |      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |       `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |        `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |         `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |          `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |           `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |            `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |             `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |              `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||       `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |  | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  |  `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | |  |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |     |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    | `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli

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Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5sn7o$1p1h$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 06:25:36 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 05:25 UTC

sms wrote:

>> Note relatively significant heat isolation of rotor braking surface as
>> compared to caliper, brake lines, wheel bearing etc.
>
> Exactly. The idea that brake fluid would boil because the rotors got hot
> displays a profound cluelessness about how vehicle braking systems function.

It's kind of interesting how _desperate_ you have become given not a single
one of you read even a single one of the references already provided.

All you "can" do is point to a special Porsche destructive testing jig.

You do realize that rotor was run on a special test jig that purposefully
ran at a simulated speed of 150 mph continuously with the calipers locked.

The pads were destroyed.
The rubber was on fire.
The fluid boiled.
The rotors were cracked.

Just as the references said they would be.

Think about the _logic_ here, in your _desperation_ to back up your
imaginary belief system.

If you can't get rotors _that_ hot without _tremendous_ damage to the
braking system components, how do people who claim their rotors warp
"justify" that their pads and fluid and rubber is just fine.

Doesn't anyone here own a synapse that can explain that obvious fatal flaw
in their argument?

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5sne6$1r8p$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 06:29:02 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 05:29 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> I have given you facts, they don't match your *belief system* so you
> diss them out of hand.

Find even a _single_ reliable reference that backs up your claims.

And I'll read it.

Find just one.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5soc5$6ic$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 06:45:00 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 05:45 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> You are being deliberately disingenuous here!

I can tell you're getting desperate because you have no defense to facts.
You're acting just like Putin where you accuse me of what _you_ are doing.

FACT:
a. I gave you a dozen reliable references; none of which you read.
b. You gave me zero.

Who is being disingenuous here, Xeno.
a. I backed up my claims with reliable references.
b. You didn't.

But you can turn me around on a dime.
I'm easy to convince with facts.

Just "saying" you measured warp isn't going to work since I've heard people
say that for decades and not one of them ever knew that the temperatures
required would turn a braking system into mush.

Provide me even a _single_ reliable reference that says what you say, which
is that people "think" rotors don't warp and yet they do.
*Find just one*

Without even a _single_ reliable reference backing up your claim, it's you
who is being disingenuous. Not me.

Note: I am well aware you can find a billion bullshit web pages selling new
rotors that will "claim" the rotors warped so find a _reliable_ cite, like
I did, from _experts_ who aren't selling anything but just telling the
facts.

Remember, a rotor will crack before it will warp.
--
HINT: If the reference doesn't speak of the facts with temperatures, then
it's not reliable because without high temperature, you can't get warp.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 16:27:21 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5soc5$6ic$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Mon, 16 May 2022 06:27 UTC

On 16/5/2022 3:45 pm, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>> You are being deliberately disingenuous here!
>
> I can tell you're getting desperate because you have no defense to facts.
> You're acting just like Putin where you accuse me of what _you_ are doing.

Me? Desperate? You must be joking? FWIW, Putin is a *liar*.
>
> FACT:
> a. I gave you a dozen reliable references; none of which you read.
> b. You gave me zero.

I gave you the one I value most, my direct experience.
>
> Who is being disingenuous here, Xeno.
> a. I backed up my claims with reliable references.
> b. You didn't.

I backed up my claim with reference to what I saw and did whilst working
at my trade. My direct experience. Yes, I worked in the industry and
have *hands on* experience with warped rotors. I have seen them, I have
measured them, I have, where possible, even cleaned them up to
serviceable condition. Your *experience* with brakes is limited to hobby
repairs at home.
>
> But you can turn me around on a dime.
> I'm easy to convince with facts.

Um, no you're not. You ignore facts that disagree with yours.
>
> Just "saying" you measured warp isn't going to work since I've heard people
> say that for decades and not one of them ever knew that the temperatures
> required would turn a braking system into mush.

Then you do not understand what goes on in braking systems in the real
world. The rotors I have seen and measured did not warp because I gave
them a *dark look*.
>
> Provide me even a _single_ reliable reference that says what you say, which
> is that people "think" rotors don't warp and yet they do.
> *Find just one*

A saw with my own eyes and measured with my own hands numerous warped
rotors.
>
> Without even a _single_ reliable reference backing up your claim, it's you
> who is being disingenuous. Not me.
>
> Note: I am well aware you can find a billion bullshit web pages selling new
> rotors that will "claim" the rotors warped so find a _reliable_ cite, like
> I did, from _experts_ who aren't selling anything but just telling the
> facts.
>
> Remember, a rotor will crack before it will warp.

Um, not always. I have seen plenty of rotors that were warped with no
signs of cracking. I have also seen the converse, cracked rotors with no
signs of warpage. It's a *different effect*.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jee9qdFn01rU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 16:38:02 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t5ormn$1sn8$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Mon, 16 May 2022 06:38 UTC

On 15/5/2022 4:17 am, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>
>>> On _that_ topic alone, have you ever seen a typical rotor "gouge" spec?
>>
>> Can't recall.
>
> Don't worry. I knew the answer before I asked it of you.
>
>> I just looked at the rotor gouge and, if *I* considered it too deep,
>> into the bin it went.
>
> I understand.
> I know all about what people do.
>> You have to realise that *any gouge* reduces the surface area for
>> braking so if it doesn't machine out, it will take ages for the pads
>> to fully bed, if at all, and will lead to unbalanced braking if the
>> gouges on each side of the car aren't balanced.
>
> It's a basic question I ask of everyone who claims to measure rotors.
> They never even _know_ what the gouge spec is.
>
>>> I have.
>>> That spec is often hard to find, but when found, it's shocking (to me).
>>> The first is that the spec allows _huge_ gouges (imho).
>>
>> I use my own judgement.
>
> Trust me, I know what you're going to say on rotors before you do.
>
> So don't worry.
> I expected it.
>
>>> And the second is I've never seen a rotor _that_ gouged.
>>
>> I have seen terribly gouged rotors - and I've binned them.
>
> I have only replaced my own rotors (and that of my family), where I
> haven't yet had to bin a rotor for anything other than for it being too
> thin.
>
> BTW, you got the reason rotor thickness matters wrong too, but that's OK.
> Everyone gets that wrong too, so I won't hold it against you.
>
>>> No big deal. I'd junk any rotor that doesn't meet spec w/o a second
>>> thought
>>> since a rotor is a safety item that costs only about $15 to $35 per
>>> wheel.
>>
>> Pre-cisely!
>
> As I said, there is only one "proper" way to decide if a rotor needs to
> be replaced, and it's _not_ what Steve said (he said every pad
> replacement or every other pad - but that's just bullshit from people
> who talk bullshit).
>
> Rest assured I know a _lot_ of morons out there say exactly what Steve
> does but when you ask them the kinds of questions I've been asking you,
> they fail the test instantly.
>
>>> My question to you are the two above:
>>> a. Have you seen how (seemingly) huge a gouge has to be to fail spec?
>>
>> Again, I use my own judgement.
>
> I know. I knew that before I asked you.
> Next time you work on rotors, ask the manufacturer for the spec.
>
> My prediction is you'll be shocked at how huge a gouge has to be to fail.

The only spec, ultimately, that matters is the minimum thickness spec.
If the rotor won't clean before minimum thickness is reached, any gouge
spec becomes irrelevant. I'm not going to put a machined rotor back on a
customer's car if *gouges* can still be seen on it - regardless of what
any gouge spec says.
>
>>> b. How often have _you_ seen a rotor gouged enough to fail that spec?
>>
>> I have had heaps of rotors, and drums, fail my judgemental spec.
>
> If they meet specs, I generally re-use them (unless they're for someone
> else, and then, in that case, I often replace good rotors anyway, since
> I don't know what kind of maintenance they will do in the future).

*I rest my case*! My brake work has always been for *customers* and, as
such, I place a high standard on it. You want to reuse a rotor I deem
too gouged, you will find yourself doing the job for *I* won't touch it.
It's called *responsibility*, perhaps you've heard of the concept?
>
> Luckily, in the USA, as long as you meet or exceed OEM specs, we can't
> get an unsafe rotor, and we can't get an unsafe brake pad, nor an unsafe
> tire (notwithstanding one-of-a-kind fuckups like the Firestone one of
> course).
>
> But we can pay $50 per axle for crappy pads (e.g., EE) and we can pay
> $50 each for rotors (there are no crappy rotors), and we can pay $200
> for crappy tires (there are no unsafe tires), etc., if we don't know
> what we're doing (or, more to the point, if we think "we get what we pay
> for").
>
> In my humble experience, typical sedan & SUV rotors are something like
> $15 to $35 each, and typical FF or GG or even HH pads are about the same
> per axle, and V-rated appropriate load index tires are almost always
> somewhere around $75 to $100 each (depending of course on the size &
> type of tire).

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t5tljf$utn$1@dont-email.me>

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From: am...@yellowjersey.org (AMuzi)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 09:03:21 -0500
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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In-Reply-To: <t5smtf$1lic$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: AMuzi - Mon, 16 May 2022 14:03 UTC

On 5/16/2022 12:20 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> further to my recent comments:
>> http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads20/REDHOTBR+7001334174918.jpg
>>
>
> Destructive testing has its place in terms of gathering
> scientific data.
>
> That situation was artificially created on a special "test
> jig for brakes"
> by Porsche as shown here
> <https://seinesystems.com/BrakeFade.htm>
> "Yellow color indicates rotor surface temperature of
> approximately 2000ºF.
> Fresh, heavy duty brake fluid boils at around 450-550ºF."
> Copyright 1997 Porsche Cars North America, Inc."
>
> Nobody is saying you can't run an engine with the brakes
> held for what constitutes dozens of miles continuously at
> 150mph & the rotors get red.
> <https://www.pinterest.com/pin/glowing-exhaust-page-2-pelican-parts-technical-bbs--419819996486878798/>
>
>
> Bugati did it here, for example at continuous speeds over
> 150 mph with the
> calipers locked for minutes on end while measuring
> temperature & speed.
> <https://youtu.be/QIc-9UuLSmg?t=161>
>
> I _love_ destructive testing. In fact, purposefully
> destructive testing is a wonderful thing to watch.
>
> "We doctored the rotor to get it red hot to subject it to
> rapid cooling."
> https://youtu.be/B6UM4P1c8mA?t=789
> Sparks. Fire. Multiple dousing with water. Cracks galore.
> Even the brake pads were melted and misshapen after that
> torture test.
> Just like the reliable references I provided said would happen.
>
> See also:
> <https://rob928.home.xs4all.nl/928info/_home.htm>
> <http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/639508-glowing-exhaust-2.html>
>
> <https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/forum/general-forums/general-discussion/9945-red-hot-brakes#post568873>
>

Yes but beyond rotor temperature note the caliper and other
components are _not_ glowing hot.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 14:19:29 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lewis - Mon, 16 May 2022 14:19 UTC

In message <jee96bFmsjhU1@mid.individual.net> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> I gave you the one I value most, my direct experience.

No matter who you are, "my own experiences" is not a reference, much
less a reliable one.

A reference is something published and accepted by others, preferably
through an editorial process that includes exports in the field. It is
not some guy saying "this is my experience" even though that might be
useful in some cases.

About the only exception to this is pure math where you can demonstrate
a proof, and even there when you apply those numbers to real-world
problems you may still be doing it wrong.

Here's an example that might relate to you and help you understand.

In the US, there was a problem with aluminum electrical wiring in homes,
and the use of aluminum wiring in new construction is banned because it
is too easy for it to cause house fires.

Now, some people will decide that "ZOMG! This house has electrical
wiring that is aluminum, I have to rewrite the house before it
explodes!"

An experienced electrician will tell you that, yes, you should probably
rewire because it isn't safe.

The same electrician will go home to his/her house with aluminum wiring
and will not lose a second of sleep.

Why? Because the electrician knows from experience that aluminum wiring
is only an issue if incompetent nincompoops (like home owners) fuck with
it and don't know what they are doing.

But no electrician is going to cite their personal experience with
aluminum wiring, or point out that there are plenty of ~70 year old
houses with aluminum wiring still out there not catching on fire,
because personal knowledge and experience is not a reference.

If you want to argue about something, you need to be able to provide
actual references.

All of that said, in this case you are wallowing in mud with a
shit-covered pig on his home turf, all that will happen here is that you
are going to smell like a pig covered in shit and the pig you are arguing
with is going to be very happy. VERY happy.

Please, every time you're going to reply to him imagine that little
chubby he gets and think again. Do you really want to be responsible for
the only sexual stimulation that obese naked troglodyte gets in his
life? Please, think of that image first.

--
'In the Fyres of Struggle let us bake New Men, who Will Notte heed
the old Lies.'

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 17:35:42 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 16:35 UTC

Xeno wrote:

>> If they meet specs, I generally re-use them (unless they're for someone
>> else, and then, in that case, I often replace good rotors anyway, since
>> I don't know what kind of maintenance they will do in the future).
>
> *I rest my case*! My brake work has always been for *customers* and, as
> such, I place a high standard on it. You want to reuse a rotor I deem
> too gouged, you will find yourself doing the job for *I* won't touch it.
> It's called *responsibility*, perhaps you've heard of the concept?

Why did you concoct that purely imaginary fanciful strawman above Xeno?

I wonder if you own the cognitive skills to realize you just proved my case
and, at the same time, you proved that you can't comprehend basic facts?

Basic facts that you can't seem to comprehend:
a. I said I junk a rotor (of my own) that doesn't meet spec.
b. I said I even sometimes junk a rotor (for others) that meets spec.
c. Better yet, I've said many times I've never seen gouges on those rotors.
d. And better still, I call the manufacturer to _get_ the rotor specs.

From those four stated facts, you comprehended _zero_ of them.
Why did you miss _every_ fact?

I don't know why.
I suspect you're desperate.

Like Alan Baker, you're desperate to _ignore_ all facts.
You're desperate to try to find any way around all those facts.

You're so desperate, you won't even _read_ what the experts say.

In your desperation to ignore facts, you actually _concocted_ an imaginary
situation where I allowed gouged rotors to remain on the vehicle.

Let me ask you a simple logical sensible question please, Xeno.
Is it _possible_ to have an _adult_ conversation with someone like you?

My observations (based on the facts), Xeno:
1. You strongly believe in what experts say is a common myth, and,
2. You completely and totally ignore all facts from those experts, and,
3. You believe only in a 20-second video from a 12 year old kid, and,
4. in the end, you are desperate to concoct a strawman that was never said.

Why did you concoct that purely imaginary fanciful strawman above Xeno?
--
I welcome someone (anyone) who can bring actual expert's facs to the fore.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
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Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:03:00 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:03 UTC

Xeno wrote:

>> But the facts remain that you need an astoundingly huge temperature,
>> whether applied locally or not, to force a rotor to deform like that.
>
> Rotors never heat *uniformly*. In fact, it is the outer periphery that
> will heat the most and it is the outer periphery that will begin to
> deform first.

I'm willing to listen to and read and watch "good science"; but I must
first let you know that I'm allergic to people trying to bullshit me.

I'm all about good science, where I appreciated that Vic Smith brought up
that engineering test article which shows there "can" be deformation; but
unfortunately, that deformation came after ten hours at a thousand degrees.

A car brake system would be mush after ten hours at a thousand degrees.

If you can find even a _single_ reliable expert in the field who can back
up your belief system, post the reference and I'll read it. But please stop
it with the 20 second videos from a 12 year old.

If you can't find even a _single_ reliable reference from experts in the
field, then that alone should tell you what you won't believe from me about
your strongly held belief system.

I recognize that people hold onto belief systems that have absolutely no
basis (otherwise, religion wouldn't exist, for example), but if you're
going to try to discuss rotor warp, and yet, if you're going to ignore a
dozen reliable cites, then at least provide a reliable cite of your own.

What Amuzi said is certainly an interesting hypothesis... what we need to
explore it further is good solid references that back up his hypothesis.

Does _anyone_ out there have a _single_ reliable cite to back up the
hypothesis that Amuzi proposed to explain how rotors can commonly "warp"
when the temperature that is required would make the rest of the braking
system boil & seals would disintegrate before rotors could get to even one
quarter of the required temperature.

In summary, if you don't believe the dozen references I provided, then
you're not going to believe a thousand more from me; so it's up to _you_ to
provide a reliable reference.
--
And no, a 20 second video from a 12 year old isn't reliable science.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:21:21 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:21 UTC

Lewis wrote:

> personal knowledge and experience is not a reference.

Lewis is correct, in my opinion, which I can back up with reliable cites:
*How Anecdotal Evidence Can Undermine Scientific Results*
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-anecdotal-evidence-can-undermine-scientific-results/>

*Anecdotes are not science*
<https://seths.blog/2021/06/anecdotes-are-not-science/>

*Anecdotes are not evidence*
<https://www.runresearchjunkie.com/anecdotes-are-not-evidence/>

Being a well educated reasonably intelligent person, I agree with anyone,
when he makes a cogent argument based on logic, sense, reason, and facts.

I completely agree with Lewis that "experience" has its place, but any one
person's experience doesn't trump the experts when the situation is thus:

1. The dozen expert's cites _all_ said it was a commonly held myth.
2. Those who believe in the common myth produced _zero_ expert's cites.
3. Worse, they produced easily refuted bullshit (their video & photo).

Like a sleazy politician, those who proffered those photos and their own
testimonials at the same time that they _refused_ to read the cites show
very clearly that this isn't about facts to them; it's about dogma.

Rest assured anyone with adult cognition would instantly notice
A. Vic Smith
B. Xeno
C. Amuzi

A. *Vic Smith*
He produced a paper of perfectly good science, which performed destructive
testing on already warped rotors, where those rotors were purposefully
deformed in a thousand degree oven for ten hours. While this was helpful
to them (they're discussing the value of heat treatments at the factory),
it's not _directly_ applicable in its entirety to this discussion.

B. *Xeno*
He strongly argued that his experience trumps _all_ scientific fact.

Worse, he constructed imaginary strawmen to attack since he had
no logical defense to the dozen experts' cites which were provided.

Even worse, he said he doesn't need any expert's opinion,
simply because he holds his own strongly held opinions based
solely on his experience and on his experience alone.

C. *Amuzi*
He seems to have understood the temperature dilemma, where he
hypothesized that perhaps the required temperature was achieved
only locally, which is an interesting hypothesis that the
experts covered in terms of the effect would be cracking.

But what destroyed his good faith is he tried to pull a
sleazy political trick by showing a doctored photo from
a destructive test jig (much as Vic Smith did but Vic
actually provided the reference but Amuzi didn't realize
I knew _instantly_ where that doctored photo came from).

In the end, people are _desperate_ to defend the myth.
What's interesting is that it's exactly what the iKooks do.

No amount of logic, sense, or reason will ever sway them
from what they intuit - facts to the contrary be damned.
--
There isn't an argument yet proposed I haven't seen in the
past as this myth of the warped rotors is commonly held.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:33:13 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:33 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> sms wrote:
>
>>> Note relatively significant heat isolation of rotor braking surface as
>>> compared to caliper, brake lines, wheel bearing etc.
>>
>> Exactly. The idea that brake fluid would boil because the rotors got hot
>> displays a profound cluelessness about how vehicle braking systems function.
>
> It's kind of interesting how _desperate_ you have become given not a single
> one of you read even a single one of the references already provided.
>
> All you "can" do is point to a special Porsche destructive testing jig.
>
> You do realize that rotor was run on a special test jig that purposefully
> ran at a simulated speed of 150 mph continuously with the calipers locked.
>
> The pads were destroyed.
> The rubber was on fire.
> The fluid boiled.
> The rotors were cracked.
>
> Just as the references said they would be.
>
> Think about the _logic_ here, in your _desperation_ to back up your
> imaginary belief system.
>
> If you can't get rotors _that_ hot without _tremendous_ damage to the
> braking system components, how do people who claim their rotors warp
> "justify" that their pads and fluid and rubber is just fine.
>
> Doesn't anyone here own a synapse that can explain that obvious fatal flaw
> in their argument?

Yikes. I apologize to Amuzi!

I replied to this post "thinking" it was from Amuzi, who (along with Vic
Smith) was the only person to propose an hypothesis of _how_ we can
reconcile the fact that rotors at 2300 degrees would destroy braking
components such that anyone "claiming" their rotors warped would have to
rebuild the entire braking system if it indeed had happened.

I was actually replying to Steve (sms), by mistake... I apologize to Amuzi,
since Steve did _not_ supply any logical sensible explanation like Amuzi
did.

Bear in mind that I treat people as I perceive them, where Steve is a
hardened politician who is no stranger to sleazy political tricks.

I apologize to Amuzi, and I openly state I made a mistake when I _thought_
I was responding to him, when it was just Steve whom I was responding to.

Steve has _never_ done even a single brake job in his entire life,
but worse than that, Steve has already quoted four references which were
complete bullshit at the same time Steve didn't even _read_ the dozen cites
from the experts.

As when Steve promotes Verizon at all costs over T-Mobile (the car group
won't understand that but the rest of you certainly will), Steve always has
an agenda (as he does saying the government can brake any law they want to
if it's to protect _him_ from Covid)...

Bear in mind, I respect the experience of Xeno.
I respect the fact Vic Smith produced a scientific article.
I respect that Amuzi proposed an hypothesis of differential heating.

But I can't respect people like Alan Baker and Steve Scharf simply because
there is no possible way to reach a logic-based synapse in their brain.

I openly and publicly apologize to Amuzi!

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:41:03 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:41 UTC

AMuzi wrote:

> Yes but beyond rotor temperature note the caliper and other
> components are _not_ glowing hot.

Hi AMuzi,

First off, let me state what should be obvious, but what might not be:
a. I am a well educated scientist & engineer which means I'm extremely
familiar with "things" that "seem" to be one way, but which aren't.
b. I'm also well trained in how to formulate and defend an hypothesis,
having been on a team who published peer-reviewed papers in the
biological sciences (before I turned to engineering in San Jose).
c. I welcomed your argument, and that of Vic Smith, simply because
both of you sincerely tried to find some way to explain the dilemma.

The dilemma is that it's well known that to make cast iron melt would
take temperatures which would _destroy_ the components in a brake caliper.

Hence, anyone "claiming" that their rotors "warped", would also need to
product the horribly damaged "softer" components of the braking system.

And they _never_ do.
Because it didn't happen.

Yet, you brought up an intriguing hypothesis that perhaps it _did_ happen,
but on a local scale, such that the brake fluid didn't boil away, and such
that the rubber around the pistons didn't flame out, and such that the
rotor itself didn't crack from the extreme differential temperature.

I agreed instantly that your hypothesis was worth looking deeper into.
Didn't I?

Now all we need are _facts_ to back up that hypothesis, right?

I said I'm willing to see facts about differential heating causing warp,
but you have to actually present facts - not desperate bullshit Amuzi.

That photo from Porsche's destructive test unit was pure bullshit, Amuzi.

You probably didn't even realize where it came from, but I've seen it in
the past because everyone who is desperate looks to the same talisman.

You think I haven't _seen_ that bullshit Porsche photo a billion times?
<http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/191382-why-do-brake-rotors-warp-2.html>

There isn't an argument you can come up in your desperation that I haven't
heard about people defending the common myth of the warped rotor, Amuzi.

It's interesting how _desperate_ people are to defend what is a common myth
where it's much like you defending that you saw God on top of the mountain.

You are ignoring the dozen experts who provided scores of facts.
And then you cling to an imaginary strawman that has no substance.

Since you are desperate to lay all your claims on what it clearly a
destructive test bed _designed_ to heat up the rotors to red hot conditions
(by simulating a 150 mph continuous braking applications until they do)
I need to ask you some simple questions about that destructive test bed.

a. Did you see the sparks & flames, or not?
b. Where do _you_ think those sparks were coming from?
c. Where do _you_ think those flames were coming from?

If you don't answer those two questions, I'll understand as when I ask
Mohammed why he brought a chisel with him when he went to the top of the
mountain to speak to God, he couldn't answer that logical question either.

Having ascertained that there was _plenty_ of destruction going on, did you
look at the brake pads that were in the destructive testing videos?

No?
Really?

How could you _miss_ them?
They were misshapen swollen melted lumps of charred metal, Amuzi.

Now, another question for you while you're desperate to say you saw God.

Did you _look_ at the rotors after they pulled them from the vehicle?
Did you notice anything "strange" about those rotors?

HINT: The experts said a rotor subject to that much heat would crack
well before it ever got to the point of warp.

Having proved that the photo you provided was bullshit (in that it didn't
show what you _wanted_ me to intuitively believe that it did), I am still
open to intelligent adult erudite conversation on your hypothesis.

I believe in logic; not intuition.
Sense; not emotion.

As I understand it, your hypothesis is that locally, on only the edges most
likely, the rotor "maybe" can get to hot enough temperatures to distort,
and yet, to not catastrophically crack (due to the differential heating).

That hypothesis of yours, as I said from the moment you issued it, is
intriguing, and all I want from you is facts from experts backing it up.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:46:27 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:46 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> If you don't answer those two questions, I'll understand as when I ask
> Mohammed why he brought a chisel with him when he went to the top of the
> mountain to speak to God, he couldn't answer that logical question either.

Ooops. that was Moses. My bad! I openly apologize for that "factual" error.

But the point remains that I am allergic to bullshit.

If someone says God gave them a tablet at the top of the mountain where all
we have is his word for it, I'm gonna search his pockets for that damn
chisel!
--
Elsewhere today I typed "brake" for "break", which I also apologize for.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 10:46:10 -0700
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 by: sms - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:46 UTC

On 5/16/2022 7:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Yes but beyond rotor temperature note the caliper and other components
> are _not_ glowing hot.

Correct.

It's rather amusing to read this thread, which somehow ended up in the
iPhone and Android newsgroups, where someone who has likely never
performed an actual brake job on a vehicle attempts to promulgate
misinformation on the subject.

You have to wonder what the motivation is for him to lie about the issue
of brake rotors warping from excessive heat.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 18:51:19 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:51 UTC

sms wrote:

> It's rather amusing to read this thread, which somehow ended up in the
> iPhone and Android newsgroups, where someone who has likely never
> performed an actual brake job on a vehicle attempts to promulgate
> misinformation on the subject.

Steve,
You are reading every word I state, which is fine, but stop pretending
please, as it means you think I'm too stupid to realize you constantly
regurgitate what I said about you.

I don't think anyone here doubts I do brake jobs all the time.
It's _you_ who has never done a brake job in your entire life.

You're the (ex) mayor of Cupertino.
Not a mechanic.

HINT: I've seen your resume.

> You have to wonder what the motivation is for him to lie about the issue
> of brake rotors warping from excessive heat.

If there is anyone intelligent on this newsgroup, is that funny to you?

a. I provided a dozen experts' cites saying warp is a myth.
b. Steve calls _all_ those dozen experts "liars".

WTF?
It is even possible to carry on an _adult_ conversation with Steve?
--
==================
*Warped Rotor Myth Training Video, by Raybestos Brand Brakes*

<https://www.facebook.com/RaybestosBrandBrakes/videos/warped-rotor-myth/2174044739282278/>
Many technicians will diagnose pedal pulsation as warped rotors.
Let's dispel that myth right now. *Rotors do not warp.*

*To warp a rotor you physically have to change the*
*metallurgy of that rotor. To change the metallurgy*
*of a rotor, you're running in excess of 2,300 degrees.*

_There is no brake system that runs 2,300 degrees._
==================
<https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
"To get cast iron hot enough to soften the metal you'd need to generate
almost 2,300�F range. There isn't a factory stock automotive brake
system in the world that's capable of generating that kind of heat.
In fact, you would experience brake pad fade, pad disintegration,
brake fluid boiling and rotor discoloration long before you
reached 1,000�F."
==================
Let's be clear we're "mostly" talking cast iron rotors here:
1. cast iron (2,300�F)
2. steel
3. stainless steel
4. laminated steel
5. high carbon iron (e.g., Sparta CX3.5)
6. ceramic

And, let's be clear about the boiling point of brake fluid.
<https://www.dixcel.co.jp/en/subcontent/literature/literature02.html>
DOT 3 >401�F (new) & 284�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 4 >446�F (new) & 311�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5.1 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)
==================
*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
Rotors are cast in extreme heat at three to five times greater
than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically 'warping'
a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat,
which is impossible."
==================
*The 'Warped' Brake Disc & Other Myths of the Braking System*

<https://centricparts.com/getmedia/bd69395a-b65c-481d-93f7-b26b1bd0638d/Centric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf>

<https://www.ipdusa.com/Articles/528/The-Warped-Brake-Disc-and-Other-Myths-of-the-Braking-System>
"In more than 40 years of professional racing, including the
Shelby/Ford GT 40s - one of the most intense brake development
programs in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc."
==================

<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/brake-rotors-dont-warp-the-earth-is-not-flat/>
"By declaring a customer's brake pedal pulsation complaint is caused
by warped rotors is like saying the earth is flat. Both are cases where
the observation of the person is based on a tiny piece of evidence
that is false in nature and application."
==================
<https://www.crossdrilledrotors.ca/blog/part-one-rotors-dont-warp>
"Brake rotors do not warp from heat, even when driven by the
most aggressive traffic officer."
==================
*The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors*

<https://trade.mechanic.com.au/news/solved-the-mystery-of-warped-brake-rotors>
"Contrary to popular belief, brake rotors, and especially brake rotors
supplied by a reputable manufacturer such as DBA don't warp, no matter
how aggressively a vehicle is driven. Yet, as we know, brake pedal
pulsation caused by out-of-true brake rotors is a fairly common problem
that is almost invariably attributed to warped rotors, which is almost
invariably confirmed by excessive amounts of rotor run out that is easy
to "prove" with a dial gauge."
==================
*Why Do Brake Rotors Warp?*
<https://www.buybrakes.com/help/why-do-brake-rotors-warp/>
"The thing is, rotors don't actually permanently warp. It may feel that
way when braking, but what really happens is that they become irregular
due to excessive lateral run out of the rotor face. You can feel through
the brake pedal as little as .002" of run out. This amount of run out is
far smaller than you can see. In other words, rotors always remain true,
but they can wear out irregularly for several reasons."
1. Lug torque
2. Hub rust
3. Hub runout
==================
*Brake Rotors Warp From Heat -- Myth Busted*
<https://www.hansonsubaru.com/service/information/brake-myths.htm>
"there's simply no way that a brake rotor can get hot enough to warp
or deform on an ordinary passenger car."
==================
*Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth*
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>
"It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause
of the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup
of brake pad material on the rotor itself. As little as 0.0004 inch
can be felt through the pedal & 0.001 inch can be downright annoying"
==================
**Everything You Need to Know About High-Tech Rotors**
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/understanding-disc-brake-rotors/>
"The most persistent myth about rotors is that they warp. It takes a
lot of heat, the kind of heat used in the casting process, to actually
warp a rotor. The two common problems that cause pedal pulsation are
lateral run-out and disc thickness variation. Lateral run-out is
typically caused by run-out from the hub face, wheel bearing, uneven
lug nut torque, or a buildup of rust and corrosion between wheel and hub.
Disc thickness variation is most often caused by excess pad transfer,
the very thin layer of pad material that bonds to the rotor surface,
and uneven wear from an improperly mounted caliper. "
==================
*Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?*

<https://blog.fcpeuro.com/warped-brake-rotors-vibrating-reality-or-internet-myth>
"Traditionally, this was blamed on warped rotors, and the prescription
was to either get the rotors machined or to replace the rotors.
Technically this wasn't wrong, but it's not completely right either.
To understand what is going on, lets examine how the brake pads
and rotors interact. It's not as simple as it seems on the surface,
and relies on complex interaction between friction materials.
Technically yes, the rotor is warped because the buildup of pad deposits
is a few thousandths of an inch thick. To restore proper smooth braking
performance, the uneven deposits need to be removed, and a fresh uniform
layer of friction material needs to be laid down."
==================
*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
"Myths take hold �because either A) they seem completely logical or
B) they are so often repeated that they just become common knowledge.
The warped rotor myth is a little bit of both. A rotor that
contributed to a pulsation condition certainly appears 'warped.'
Plus, everyone says it - even technicians that know the rotor isn't
really warped will say it as shorthand. Rotors are cast in extreme heat
at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking
situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar
application of extreme heat, which is impossible."
==================
*Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked*

<https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/05/19/6-biggest-brake-rotor-myths-debunked/>
Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp.
Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the
movie Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about
brake-rotor "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because,
in layman's terms, it makes sense.
But then real life happens and this faulty explanation doesn't
hold up to scientific scrutiny.
What is often described as "warping" is actually the presence of
two separate phenomena that can happen in isolation or in combination
with each other, and neither has anything to do with warping.
These phenomena are:
a. Brake torque variation (BTV), and
b. Disc thickness variation (DTV)
==================
*The myth of warped brake discs*


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 13:36:59 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Tue, 17 May 2022 20:36 UTC

On 2022-05-16 10:41 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> Yes but beyond rotor temperature note the caliper and other components
>> are _not_ glowing hot.
>
> Hi AMuzi,
>
> First off, let me state what should be obvious, but what might not be:
> a. I am a well educated scientist & engineer which means I'm extremely
> familiar with "things" that "seem" to be one way, but which aren't.

A claim not supported by anything.

> b. I'm also well trained in how to formulate and defend an hypothesis,
> having been on a team who published peer-reviewed papers in the
> biological sciences (before I turned to engineering in San Jose).

Supra.

> c. I welcomed your argument, and that of Vic Smith, simply because
> both of you sincerely tried to find some way to explain the dilemma.
>
> The dilemma is that it's well known that to make cast iron melt would
> take temperatures which would _destroy_ the components in a brake caliper.

It's also well-known that you don't have to heat a metal to its melting
point for it to become plastic.

>
> Hence, anyone "claiming" that their rotors "warped", would also need to
> product the horribly damaged "softer" components of the braking system.

Heat has to be transmitted to those other components... ...and that
doesn't happen.

>
> And they _never_ do.
> Because it didn't happen.

It does happen.

You've been SHOWN examples.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on
brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so
complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 22:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lewis - Tue, 17 May 2022 22:19 UTC

In message <t6111e$bd6$1@dont-email.me> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> On 2022-05-16 10:41 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>> Yes but beyond rotor temperature note the caliper and other components
>>> are _not_ glowing hot.
>>
>> Hi AMuzi,
>>
>> First off, let me state what should be obvious, but what might not be:
>> a. I am a well educated scientist & engineer which means I'm extremely
>> familiar with "things" that "seem" to be one way, but which aren't.

> A claim not supported by anything.

Oh, it's comedy gold. Obviously by "well educated: s.he.it means "kicked
out of kindergarten" and by 'scientist' s/he/it means 'I have a spell
checker... etc.

There's been a lot of dumb fucks in this group over the years, but arlen
is the dumbest fuckest of them all.

> You've been SHOWN examples.

You forget that nothing exist outside his tiny tiny brain.

--
Esa mujer es un ángel
5 Boss. Ass. Bitch.

Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t61c7v$im1$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=32378&group=comp.mobile.android#32378

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!3PLzD/rb74ta/CXxNcmbeA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: Empiricism trumps Arlen's idiocy (was Re: Real information on brakes (was Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 00:48:39 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Tue, 17 May 2022 23:48 UTC

Lewis wrote:

> You forget that nothing exist outside his tiny tiny brain.

Notice the iKooks like Lewis are literally _afraid_ of facts.

Given the dozen reliable resources (see below), it's interesting the
iKooks like Lewis are so afraid of facts, they claim facts can't exist.

And yet, they do.

*Warped Rotor Myth Training Video, by Raybestos Brand Brakes*
<https://www.facebook.com/RaybestosBrandBrakes/videos/warped-rotor-myth/2174044739282278/>
Many technicians will diagnose pedal pulsation as warped rotors.
Let's dispel that myth right now. *Rotors do not warp.*

*To warp a rotor you physically have to change the*
*metallurgy of that rotor. To change the metallurgy*
*of a rotor, you're running in excess of 2,300 degrees.*

_There is no brake system that runs 2,300 degrees._
==================
<https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
"To get cast iron hot enough to soften the metal you'd need to generate
almost 2,300�F range. There isn't a factory stock automotive brake
system in the world that's capable of generating that kind of heat.
In fact, you would experience brake pad fade, pad disintegration,
brake fluid boiling and rotor discoloration long before you
reached 1,000�F."
==================
Let's be clear we're "mostly" talking cast iron rotors here:
1. cast iron (2,300�F)
2. steel
3. stainless steel
4. laminated steel
5. high carbon iron (e.g., Sparta CX3.5)
6. ceramic

And, let's be clear about the boiling point of brake fluid.
<https://www.dixcel.co.jp/en/subcontent/literature/literature02.html>
DOT 3 >401�F (new) & 284�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 4 >446�F (new) & 311�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5.1 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)
DOT 5 >500�F (new) & 356�F (1-2 years old)
==================
*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
Rotors are cast in extreme heat at three to five times greater
than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically 'warping'
a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat,
which is impossible."
==================
*The 'Warped' Brake Disc & Other Myths of the Braking System*
<https://centricparts.com/getmedia/bd69395a-b65c-481d-93f7-b26b1bd0638d/Centric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf>
<https://www.ipdusa.com/Articles/528/The-Warped-Brake-Disc-and-Other-Myths-of-the-Braking-System>
"In more than 40 years of professional racing, including the
Shelby/Ford GT 40s - one of the most intense brake development
programs in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc."
==================
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/brake-rotors-dont-warp-the-earth-is-not-flat/>
"By declaring a customer's brake pedal pulsation complaint is caused
by warped rotors is like saying the earth is flat. Both are cases where
the observation of the person is based on a tiny piece of evidence
that is false in nature and application."
==================
<https://www.crossdrilledrotors.ca/blog/part-one-rotors-dont-warp>
"Brake rotors do not warp from heat, even when driven by the
most aggressive traffic officer."
==================
*The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors*
<https://trade.mechanic.com.au/news/solved-the-mystery-of-warped-brake-rotors>
"Contrary to popular belief, brake rotors, and especially brake rotors
supplied by a reputable manufacturer such as DBA don't warp, no matter
how aggressively a vehicle is driven. Yet, as we know, brake pedal
pulsation caused by out-of-true brake rotors is a fairly common problem
that is almost invariably attributed to warped rotors, which is almost
invariably confirmed by excessive amounts of rotor run out that is easy
to "prove" with a dial gauge."
==================
*Why Do Brake Rotors Warp?*
<https://www.buybrakes.com/help/why-do-brake-rotors-warp/>
"The thing is, rotors don't actually permanently warp. It may feel that
way when braking, but what really happens is that they become irregular
due to excessive lateral run out of the rotor face. You can feel through
the brake pedal as little as .002" of run out. This amount of run out is
far smaller than you can see. In other words, rotors always remain true,
but they can wear out irregularly for several reasons."
1. Lug torque
2. Hub rust
3. Hub runout
==================
*Brake Rotors Warp From Heat -- Myth Busted*
<https://www.hansonsubaru.com/service/information/brake-myths.htm>
"there's simply no way that a brake rotor can get hot enough to warp
or deform on an ordinary passenger car."
==================
*Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth*
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1808-nuts-and-bolts-warped-rotor-myth/>
"It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause
of the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup
of brake pad material on the rotor itself. As little as 0.0004 inch
can be felt through the pedal & 0.001 inch can be downright annoying"
==================
**Everything You Need to Know About High-Tech Rotors**
<https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/understanding-disc-brake-rotors/>
"The most persistent myth about rotors is that they warp. It takes a
lot of heat, the kind of heat used in the casting process, to actually
warp a rotor. The two common problems that cause pedal pulsation are
lateral run-out and disc thickness variation. Lateral run-out is
typically caused by run-out from the hub face, wheel bearing, uneven
lug nut torque, or a buildup of rust and corrosion between wheel and hub.
Disc thickness variation is most often caused by excess pad transfer,
the very thin layer of pad material that bonds to the rotor surface,
and uneven wear from an improperly mounted caliper. "
==================
*Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?*
<https://blog.fcpeuro.com/warped-brake-rotors-vibrating-reality-or-internet-myth>
"Traditionally, this was blamed on warped rotors, and the prescription
was to either get the rotors machined or to replace the rotors.
Technically this wasn't wrong, but it's not completely right either.
To understand what is going on, lets examine how the brake pads
and rotors interact. It's not as simple as it seems on the surface,
and relies on complex interaction between friction materials.
Technically yes, the rotor is warped because the buildup of pad deposits
is a few thousandths of an inch thick. To restore proper smooth braking
performance, the uneven deposits need to be removed, and a fresh uniform
layer of friction material needs to be laid down."
==================
*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way*
<https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/warped-rotors-myth/>
"Myths take hold �because either A) they seem completely logical or
B) they are so often repeated that they just become common knowledge.
The warped rotor myth is a little bit of both. A rotor that
contributed to a pulsation condition certainly appears 'warped.'
Plus, everyone says it - even technicians that know the rotor isn't
really warped will say it as shorthand. Rotors are cast in extreme heat
at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking
situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar
application of extreme heat, which is impossible."
==================
*Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked*
<https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/05/19/6-biggest-brake-rotor-myths-debunked/>
Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp.
Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the
movie Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about
brake-rotor "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because,
in layman's terms, it makes sense.
But then real life happens and this faulty explanation doesn't
hold up to scientific scrutiny.
What is often described as "warping" is actually the presence of
two separate phenomena that can happen in isolation or in combination
with each other, and neither has anything to do with warping.
These phenomena are:
a. Brake torque variation (BTV), and
b. Disc thickness variation (DTV)
==================
*The myth of warped brake discs*
<https://alconkits.com/technical-info/brake-tech/56-the-myth-of-warped-brake-discs>
"Have you ever heard someone say they had warped brake discs?
Typically someone had the discs resurfaced to cure the problem
and after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration came back.
In almost every case, this problem is not caused by a warped discs,
but that the brake pad material transferred unevenly to the surface
of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation
or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures."
==================
<https://ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/warped-brake-rotors/>
"Calling it brake rotor warp demonstrates a complete misunderstanding
of the metallurgy and the braking process"
==================
--
The iKooks are afraid of facts.


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