Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?
What would be your concerns or complaints about young students??? From a personal point of view, they train faster, have excellent learning skills, and are a pleasure to watch learn and excel in the sport. Our club has made it a priority to train and develop a great youth program, second to none. OBTP

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?
No, I was one of those (started at 13) many years ago.
Granted, today a lot of younger students seem distracted with "stuff", but still worthwhile to train. I say "go for it", train the new pilots for the future of soaring.

Curious, why do you ask?

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> > Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?
> No, I was one of those (started at 13) many years ago.
> Granted, today a lot of younger students seem distracted with "stuff", but still worthwhile to train. I say "go for it", train the new pilots for the future of soaring.
>
> Curious, why do you ask?
JP,
Happy to share my thoughts on the issue offline. Contact: smanley at wisc dot edu
SRM

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 11:09:02 AM UTC-4, Scott Manley wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> > > Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?
> > No, I was one of those (started at 13) many years ago.
> > Granted, today a lot of younger students seem distracted with "stuff", but still worthwhile to train. I say "go for it", train the new pilots for the future of soaring.
> >
> > Curious, why do you ask?
> JP,
> Happy to share my thoughts on the issue offline. Contact: smanley at wisc dot edu
> SRM

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 11:09:02 AM UTC-4, Scott Manley wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> > > Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?
> > No, I was one of those (started at 13) many years ago.
> > Granted, today a lot of younger students seem distracted with "stuff", but still worthwhile to train. I say "go for it", train the new pilots for the future of soaring.
> >
> > Curious, why do you ask?
> JP,
> Happy to share my thoughts on the issue offline. Contact: smanley at wisc dot edu
> SRM

You are a wise man Scott.

Walt

On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?

I’m not an instructor and I don’t play one on TV but I have managed a flight school and small airport (Silver Springs Airport, Silver Springs, Florida) while in college and worked at a glider port/flight school as a tow pilot.

There are young students who are fine and then there are students who, regardless of age should not be flying. Their brain is just not engaged, the lights are on but nobody’s home. The key is to identify those students and not let them kill themselves OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.

The chief flight instructor where I worked while in college would tell a young student and his or her parents that they just weren’t improving and might need to take a break and come back when they were older, more mature and would do better. While it is laudable for an instructor to not want to tell a student who wishes to continue to try that they can’t, there are times when this is actually the best thing to do. I have towed 14 year olds who were solid as a rock and one 15 year old who almost killed me.

It is well established that young people learn very quickly, it is equally well established that young people have more automobile accidents than the older age groups. Flying and driving share one thing in common, the importance of making good decisions. JMHO.

Walt Connelly

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 3:11:29 PM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> > Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?
> I’m not an instructor and I don’t play one on TV but I have managed a flight school and small airport (Silver Springs Airport, Silver Springs, Florida) while in college and worked at a glider port/flight school as a tow pilot.
>
> There are young students who are fine and then there are students who, regardless of age should not be flying. Their brain is just not engaged, the lights are on but nobody’s home. The key is to identify those students and not let them kill themselves OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
>
> The chief flight instructor where I worked while in college would tell a young student and his or her parents that they just weren’t improving and might need to take a break and come back when they were older, more mature and would do better. While it is laudable for an instructor to not want to tell a student who wishes to continue to try that they can’t, there are times when this is actually the best thing to do. I have towed 14 year olds who were solid as a rock and one 15 year old who almost killed me.
>
> It is well established that young people learn very quickly, it is equally well established that young people have more automobile accidents than the older age groups. Flying and driving share one thing in common, the importance of making good decisions. JMHO.
>
> Walt Connelly
I confess that I am likely remembering what I was like at 16. Not a good candidate for flying.

It is my experience too that young people can learn the eye/hand stuff very quickly but I wonder about their judgements and thinking. I'm pretty sure my frontal lobe is still not yet fully developed and I have a feeling that may be the case too with some, not all, young flying students.

I have soloed outstanding 14 year old pilots and have been scared to death by some other young pilots. I have experienced "grown up" students who just were not getting it and young students who did. I don't reject young students out of hand but I do get a little more attentive.

It totally depends on the students. I soloed all three of my kids at 14 (confession: one will probably solo in a day or two, so close enough), and they finished (or probably will finish) their ratings at 16. But I've given rides to some young teens who I could tell were uninterested (bad candidates) or completely flippant about how serious you have to take safety.

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 10:00:35 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 3:11:29 PM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 27, 2023 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> > > Anyone else uneasy with young ( under 16 or so ) flying students?
> > I’m not an instructor and I don’t play one on TV but I have managed a flight school and small airport (Silver Springs Airport, Silver Springs, Florida) while in college and worked at a glider port/flight school as a tow pilot.
> >
> > There are young students who are fine and then there are students who, regardless of age should not be flying. Their brain is just not engaged, the lights are on but nobody’s home. The key is to identify those students and not let them kill themselves OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
> >
> > The chief flight instructor where I worked while in college would tell a young student and his or her parents that they just weren’t improving and might need to take a break and come back when they were older, more mature and would do better. While it is laudable for an instructor to not want to tell a student who wishes to continue to try that they can’t, there are times when this is actually the best thing to do. I have towed 14 year olds who were solid as a rock and one 15 year old who almost killed me.
> >
> > It is well established that young people learn very quickly, it is equally well established that young people have more automobile accidents than the older age groups. Flying and driving share one thing in common, the importance of making good decisions. JMHO.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> I confess that I am likely remembering what I was like at 16. Not a good candidate for flying.
>
> It is my experience too that young people can learn the eye/hand stuff very quickly but I wonder about their judgements and thinking. I'm pretty sure my frontal lobe is still not yet fully developed and I have a feeling that may be the case too with some, not all, young flying students.
>
> I have soloed outstanding 14 year old pilots and have been scared to death by some other young pilots. I have experienced "grown up" students who just were not getting it and young students who did. I don't reject young students out of hand but I do get a little more attentive.

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 4:09:44 AM UTC-7, jodom wrote:
> It totally depends on the students. I soloed all three of my kids at 14 (confession: one will probably solo in a day or two, so close enough), and they finished (or probably will finish) their ratings at 16. But I've given rides to some young teens who I could tell were uninterested (bad candidates) or completely flippant about how serious you have to take safety.
I had not thought of this in this way Jodom but maybe what raises my anxiety is a notion that "safety" may not mean to a very young pilot what it means to me. That might help me understand some of the actions I might see some very young pilots taking. On the other hand, I have seen some older students doing some things that I didn't think a glider could do - and that I preferred that it not do. What an experience.

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:32:00 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 4:09:44 AM UTC-7, jodom wrote:
> > It totally depends on the students. I soloed all three of my kids at 14 (confession: one will probably solo in a day or two, so close enough), and they finished (or probably will finish) their ratings at 16. But I've given rides to some young teens who I could tell were uninterested (bad candidates) or completely flippant about how serious you have to take safety.
> I had not thought of this in this way Jodom but maybe what raises my anxiety is a notion that "safety" may not mean to a very young pilot what it means to me. That might help me understand some of the actions I might see some very young pilots taking. On the other hand, I have seen some older students doing some things that I didn't think a glider could do - and that I preferred that it not do. What an experience.

I've started students at 12 and 13, solo'd them at 14. Some just "have the hands" and learn quickly. It's interesting to watch their maturity level change as they become teens. When you see the maturity in their antics and actions around the field, you'll feel better about soloing them. Teens will be teens, a time for fun and a time to be serious. But when they are serious about flying, you'll know. Two of my 14yr old solo students are now airline pilots, two more quickly approaching that goal.

Bill

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 5:49:02 PM UTC-4, Bill Tisdale wrote:
> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:32:00 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 4:09:44 AM UTC-7, jodom wrote:
> > > It totally depends on the students. I soloed all three of my kids at 14 (confession: one will probably solo in a day or two, so close enough), and they finished (or probably will finish) their ratings at 16. But I've given rides to some young teens who I could tell were uninterested (bad candidates) or completely flippant about how serious you have to take safety.
> > I had not thought of this in this way Jodom but maybe what raises my anxiety is a notion that "safety" may not mean to a very young pilot what it means to me. That might help me understand some of the actions I might see some very young pilots taking. On the other hand, I have seen some older students doing some things that I didn't think a glider could do - and that I preferred that it not do. What an experience.
> I've started students at 12 and 13, solo'd them at 14. Some just "have the hands" and learn quickly. It's interesting to watch their maturity level change as they become teens. When you see the maturity in their antics and actions around the field, you'll feel better about soloing them. Teens will be teens, a time for fun and a time to be serious. But when they are serious about flying, you'll know. Two of my 14yr old solo students are now airline pilots, two more quickly approaching that goal.
>
> Bill

I found this interesting. https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/who-is-responsible-when-a-student-pilot-makes-a-mistake/?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=260548224&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-97a4KBXsSNBH-3-sle9hP-YEj0v1DmwlOTZBfFu9vTPyqoU2M8IMIIJN4_aFqArWZPgaXdwkU-XYMu4VEt_5kw-h1WxA&utm_content=260548224&utm_source=hs_email&fbclid=IwAR3ph0GmBP4z_82hnVeHg6kxYtCJGbUlH5wJp2CnCopzfASoMWiLZhzN1JM

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 11:27:13 PM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 5:49:02 PM UTC-4, Bill Tisdale wrote:
> > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:32:00 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 4:09:44 AM UTC-7, jodom wrote:
> > > > It totally depends on the students. I soloed all three of my kids at 14 (confession: one will probably solo in a day or two, so close enough), and they finished (or probably will finish) their ratings at 16. But I've given rides to some young teens who I could tell were uninterested (bad candidates) or completely flippant about how serious you have to take safety.
> > > I had not thought of this in this way Jodom but maybe what raises my anxiety is a notion that "safety" may not mean to a very young pilot what it means to me. That might help me understand some of the actions I might see some very young pilots taking. On the other hand, I have seen some older students doing some things that I didn't think a glider could do - and that I preferred that it not do. What an experience.
> > I've started students at 12 and 13, solo'd them at 14. Some just "have the hands" and learn quickly. It's interesting to watch their maturity level change as they become teens. When you see the maturity in their antics and actions around the field, you'll feel better about soloing them. Teens will be teens, a time for fun and a time to be serious. But when they are serious about flying, you'll know. Two of my 14yr old solo students are now airline pilots, two more quickly approaching that goal.
> >
> > Bill
> I found this interesting. https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/who-is-responsible-when-a-student-pilot-makes-a-mistake/?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=260548224&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-97a4KBXsSNBH-3-sle9hP-YEj0v1DmwlOTZBfFu9vTPyqoU2M8IMIIJN4_aFqArWZPgaXdwkU-XYMu4VEt_5kw-h1WxA&utm_content=260548224&utm_source=hs_email&fbclid=IwAR3ph0GmBP4z_82hnVeHg6kxYtCJGbUlH5wJp2CnCopzfASoMWiLZhzN1JM
Thank you for this Walt. I understand their feelings!

After reading this article I wonder why any instructor would work with new students. The article mentions
"the learner who has flown with three or four different instructors who all refuse to fly with the learner again because he or she doesn’t follow instructions because they are anti-authority, macho, impulsive, and invulnerable." The school where I got my helicopter rating had a student like this who was dismissed, got their license elsewhere and killed themselves and passengers due to poor flying habits. At some point the pilot who screws up whether a "learner" or "rated" needs to take responsibility.

I'm finding it a bit annoying looking for someone to do a flight review. I would do it in an airplane, seaplane or helicopter but I'd like to do it with someone experienced. Most all the "instructors" I've met recently have wet ink on their certificate. Interesting to learn that a CFI who has a seaplane rating is a seaplane CFI too, simply because they have a seaplane rating and an instructor rating for an airplane, seems like a bad idea to me but I don't make the rules. In short we have low time instructors teaching new pilots.

Walt Connelly

“they are anti-authority, macho, impulsive, and invulnerable” … we were all there once.

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 2:47:08 PM UTC-7, stephen.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> “they are anti-authority, macho, impulsive, and invulnerable” … we were all there once.
I know I was. Still, I'd rather not have those attitudes in the PIC. I'm fortunate I did not begin flying until some of those attitudes had eased a bit.