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tech / sci.engr.joining.welding / Re: What is Hot Short?

SubjectAuthor
* What is Hot Short?Bob La Londe
+* Re: What is Hot Short?Snag
|`* Re: What is Hot Short?Bob La Londe
| `* Re: What is Hot Short?Snag
|  +* Re: What is Hot Short?Bob La Londe
|  |+* Re: What is Hot Short?Snag
|  ||`- Re: What is Hot Short?Bob La Londe
|  |+* Re: What is Hot Short?Richard Smith
|  ||`* Re: What is Hot Short?Bob La Londe
|  || `* Re: What is Hot Short?Richard Smith
|  ||  `- Re: What is Hot Short?Bob La Londe
|  |`- Re: What is Hot Short?David Billington
|  `* Re: What is Hot Short?David Billington
|   `- Re: What is Hot Short?Snag
+- Re: What is Hot Short?John B.
`* Re: What is Hot Short?Richard Smith
 +* Re: What is Hot Short?Jim Wilkins
 |`- Re: What is Hot Short?Richard Smith
 `- Re: What is Hot Short?Bob La Londe

1
What is Hot Short?

<tl11fm$252np$1@dont-email.me>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: What is Hot Short?
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:48:38 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 21:48 UTC

Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
machineability like 1144.

--
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Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl12ub$2576v$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Snag_...@msn.com (Snag)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:39 -0600
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 by: Snag - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 22:12 UTC

On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
> some alloys.  Particularly those that have additives for better
> machineability like 1144.
>

I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning with
aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting , and the
aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces have a very
grainy appearance .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl13av$1tlp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:20:15 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Bob La Londe - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 22:20 UTC

On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
>> some alloys.  Particularly those that have additives for better
>> machineability like 1144.
>>
>
>   I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning with
> aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting , and the
> aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces have a very
> grainy appearance .

I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well. 7075 is
"generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be welded
by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of things I have
heard. I didn't want to throw to much in there that could be wrong so
as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids and get more towards
the point.

"I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough background
information I'll find a tangent to argue about." LOL. No accusation
there of course.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Re: What is Hot Short?

<4u88nhl277rnjiap877k1blpmolu4gf4v5@4ax.com>

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 06:45:34 +0700
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 by: John B. - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 23:45 UTC

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:48:38 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:

>Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
>some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
>machineability like 1144.

The term was originally used to identify the tendency of some metals
to become brittle when heated - usually red heat in steel alloys.

I believe it is now also used to identify the tendency to crack from
welding in certain metals.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Re: What is Hot Short?

<lypmdn8np5.fsf@void.com>

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From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 05:37:10 +0000
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 by: Richard Smith - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 05:37 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
> some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
> machineability like 1144.

It was a term used in the Sheffield steel industry I started in.
* As I understand and recall it * (caveat)
The term "short" meaning brittle or fractures has a general meaning.
eg. "shortbread" - which as a type is a biscuit / cookie which has the
property that it fractures readily if you apply a bending force to it
ie. "hot short" and "shortbread" have the same meaning to the "short"
in the name. Different meaning to dimension in this case.

"hot short" means if you work the metal while hot, seeking
malleability (not specifically ductily, which more relates to "cold"
wire-drawing), you don't get malleability because the metal cracks
and/or fractures during that hot-working. Where you would otherwise
look to the metal deforming in a forming process with result of
forming some useful product.

Hot-shortness can be caused by solutes in the metal which form low
melting point phases which do indeed melt during what would otherwise
be a useful hot-working process.
Segregation of non-metallic / semi-metallic impurities to grain
boundaries could be another mechanism causing hot-shortness.
etc.

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl2lsh$2bpe0$1@dont-email.me>

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From: muratla...@gmail.com (Jim Wilkins)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 07:42:17 -0500
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 by: Jim Wilkins - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 12:42 UTC

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lypmdn8np5.fsf@void.com...

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
> some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
> machineability like 1144.

It was a term used in the Sheffield steel industry I started in.
* As I understand and recall it * (caveat)
The term "short" meaning brittle or fractures has a general meaning.
eg. "shortbread" - which as a type is a biscuit / cookie which has the
property that it fractures readily if you apply a bending force to it
ie. "hot short" and "shortbread" have the same meaning to the "short"
in the name. Different meaning to dimension in this case.

"hot short" means if you work the metal while hot, seeking
malleability (not specifically ductily, which more relates to "cold"
wire-drawing), you don't get malleability because the metal cracks
and/or fractures during that hot-working. Where you would otherwise
look to the metal deforming in a forming process with result of
forming some useful product.

Hot-shortness can be caused by solutes in the metal which form low
melting point phases which do indeed melt during what would otherwise
be a useful hot-working process.
Segregation of non-metallic / semi-metallic impurities to grain
boundaries could be another mechanism causing hot-shortness.
etc.

-----------------

I've read that at the time Titanic was built the sulfur content was
considered acceptable as long as the steel didn't show hot shortness. At the
time they had little experience with brittleness when cold.

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl309q$2cng6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Snag_...@msn.com (Snag)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 09:40:42 -0600
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 by: Snag - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 15:40 UTC

On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
>>> some alloys.  Particularly those that have additives for better
>>> machineability like 1144.
>>>
>>
>>    I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning
>> with aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting , and
>> the aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces have a
>> very grainy appearance .
>
>
> I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well.  7075 is
> "generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be welded
> by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of things I have
> heard.  I didn't want to throw to much in there that could be wrong so
> as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids and get more towards
> the point.
>
> "I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough background
> information I'll find a tangent to argue about."  LOL. No accusation
> there of course.
>
>
>

Every aluminum alloy I've melted down for casting stock has exhibited
this characteristic , in fact I rely on it . Especially with stuff like
alloy wheels/rims , that are too big to process any other way . Lay that
sucker down on a nice hot hardwood fire and when it starts looking like
it's about to melt (there are signs if you recognize them) start
dragging chunks off with a pair of blacksmith tongs . I usually have a
preheated crucible on standby in the foundry furnace to receive them .
Wheel to crucible to ingot mold to out of my way while it cools .
Speaking of casting , I've got a brand new .452/255gr bullet mold in
desperate need of some molten wheel weight/pure lead alloy ... I was
thinking .45 ACP when I bought it , but a couple of neighbors have 1873
SAA replicas . They currently use them for fast draw competition , but
they're easily repurposed if the need arises .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl33d3$1714$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 09:33:38 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Bob La Londe - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 16:33 UTC

On 11/16/2022 8:40 AM, Snag wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability
>>>> of some alloys.  Particularly those that have additives for better
>>>> machineability like 1144.
>>>>
>>>
>>>    I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning
>>> with aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting ,
>>> and the aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces have
>>> a very grainy appearance .
>>
>>
>> I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well.  7075
>> is "generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be
>> welded by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of things
>> I have heard.  I didn't want to throw to much in there that could be
>> wrong so as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids and get more
>> towards the point.
>>
>> "I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough
>> background information I'll find a tangent to argue about."  LOL. No
>> accusation there of course.
>>
>>
>>
>
>   Every aluminum alloy I've melted down for casting stock has exhibited
> this characteristic , in fact I rely on it . Especially with stuff like
> alloy wheels/rims , that are too big to process any other way . Lay that
> sucker down on a nice hot hardwood fire and when it starts looking like
> it's about to melt (there are signs if you recognize them) start
> dragging chunks off with a pair of blacksmith tongs . I usually have a
> preheated crucible on standby in the foundry furnace to receive them .
> Wheel to crucible to ingot mold to out of my way while it cools .
>   Speaking of casting , I've got a brand new .452/255gr bullet mold in
> desperate need of some molten wheel weight/pure lead alloy ... I was
> thinking .45 ACP when I bought it , but a couple of neighbors have 1873
> SAA replicas . They currently use them for fast draw competition , but
> they're easily repurposed if the need arises .

I think most of the "casting" alloys probably exhibit some of this. I
have found no real issue with welding 5052, 6061, or 3003 other than my
general lack of skills. I've also heard 6061 is particularly poor for
casting unless you increase the silicon metal content. I have several
pounds of silicone metal on the shelf for such experimentation
"someday." I am concerned about its higher melting point, but I've been
told it will dissolve at aluminum casting temperatures. I've also heard
you can "cast" 6061 under high pressure with rapid cooling and not get
the crystallization it exhibits when gravity cast and "normally" cooled.
Of course this is a tangent.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl35gg$2d6i9$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Snag_...@msn.com (Snag)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:09:36 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Snag - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 17:09 UTC

On 11/16/2022 10:33 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 11/16/2022 8:40 AM, Snag wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability
>>>>> of some alloys.  Particularly those that have additives for better
>>>>> machineability like 1144.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning
>>>> with aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting ,
>>>> and the aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces
>>>> have a very grainy appearance .
>>>
>>>
>>> I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well.  7075
>>> is "generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be
>>> welded by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of
>>> things I have heard.  I didn't want to throw to much in there that
>>> could be wrong so as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids
>>> and get more towards the point.
>>>
>>> "I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough
>>> background information I'll find a tangent to argue about."  LOL. No
>>> accusation there of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>    Every aluminum alloy I've melted down for casting stock has
>> exhibited this characteristic , in fact I rely on it . Especially with
>> stuff like alloy wheels/rims , that are too big to process any other
>> way . Lay that sucker down on a nice hot hardwood fire and when it
>> starts looking like it's about to melt (there are signs if you
>> recognize them) start dragging chunks off with a pair of blacksmith
>> tongs . I usually have a preheated crucible on standby in the foundry
>> furnace to receive them . Wheel to crucible to ingot mold to out of my
>> way while it cools .
>>    Speaking of casting , I've got a brand new .452/255gr bullet mold
>> in desperate need of some molten wheel weight/pure lead alloy ... I
>> was thinking .45 ACP when I bought it , but a couple of neighbors have
>> 1873 SAA replicas . They currently use them for fast draw competition
>> , but they're easily repurposed if the need arises .
>
> I think most of the "casting" alloys probably exhibit some of this.  I
> have found no real issue with welding 5052, 6061, or 3003 other than my
> general lack of skills.  I've also heard 6061 is particularly poor for
> casting unless you increase the silicon metal content.  I have several
> pounds of silicone metal on the shelf for such experimentation
> "someday."  I am concerned about its higher melting point, but I've been
> told it will dissolve at aluminum casting temperatures.  I've also heard
> you can "cast" 6061 under high pressure with rapid cooling and not get
> the crystallization it exhibits when gravity cast and "normally" cooled.
>  Of course this is a tangent.
>
>
>
>

Shoot , I toss out a perfectly good rabbit hole and you totally
ignore it ... I don't usually melt any aluminum but cast alloys .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

Re: What is Hot Short?

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 10:54:28 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 17:54 UTC

On 11/16/2022 10:09 AM, Snag wrote:
> On 11/16/2022 10:33 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 11/16/2022 8:40 AM, Snag wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability
>>>>>> of some alloys.  Particularly those that have additives for better
>>>>>> machineability like 1144.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning
>>>>> with aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting ,
>>>>> and the aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces
>>>>> have a very grainy appearance .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well.  7075
>>>> is "generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be
>>>> welded by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of
>>>> things I have heard.  I didn't want to throw to much in there that
>>>> could be wrong so as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids
>>>> and get more towards the point.
>>>>
>>>> "I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough
>>>> background information I'll find a tangent to argue about."  LOL. No
>>>> accusation there of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>    Every aluminum alloy I've melted down for casting stock has
>>> exhibited this characteristic , in fact I rely on it . Especially
>>> with stuff like alloy wheels/rims , that are too big to process any
>>> other way . Lay that sucker down on a nice hot hardwood fire and when
>>> it starts looking like it's about to melt (there are signs if you
>>> recognize them) start dragging chunks off with a pair of blacksmith
>>> tongs . I usually have a preheated crucible on standby in the foundry
>>> furnace to receive them . Wheel to crucible to ingot mold to out of
>>> my way while it cools .
>>>    Speaking of casting , I've got a brand new .452/255gr bullet mold
>>> in desperate need of some molten wheel weight/pure lead alloy ... I
>>> was thinking .45 ACP when I bought it , but a couple of neighbors
>>> have 1873 SAA replicas . They currently use them for fast draw
>>> competition , but they're easily repurposed if the need arises .
>>
>> I think most of the "casting" alloys probably exhibit some of this.  I
>> have found no real issue with welding 5052, 6061, or 3003 other than
>> my general lack of skills.  I've also heard 6061 is particularly poor
>> for casting unless you increase the silicon metal content.  I have
>> several pounds of silicone metal on the shelf for such experimentation
>> "someday."  I am concerned about its higher melting point, but I've
>> been told it will dissolve at aluminum casting temperatures.  I've
>> also heard you can "cast" 6061 under high pressure with rapid cooling
>> and not get the crystallization it exhibits when gravity cast and
>> "normally" cooled.   Of course this is a tangent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>   Shoot , I toss out a perfectly good rabbit hole and you totally
> ignore it ... I don't usually melt any aluminum but cast alloys .

Did thumbody thay wabbit? Wewes that wabbit?

I generate more 6061 scrap than is reasonable. I've been told recyclers
won't pay much for it, so finding ways to entertain myself with it... I
make a lot of racks and brackets out of the scraps. The tool racks on
all of my CNC machines are made from scrap aluminum. The top/outside
often looks okay, but if you look at the other side you often find a
failed mold machining. I only need "so many" tool racks. One of my
reasons for wanting to learn more about ways I might weld 1/2in and
thicker 6061 is rooted in finding other ways to reduce this pile that is
slowly coming to life and devouring my shop like the killer tomato that
ate New York City.

As an aside when I was just making a few molds for myself on my Taig CNC
mill I tried to weld in miscuts while they were still on the table. It
was never pretty, but I did miraculous save a few piece of metal. The
other miracle is I didn't fry the controller for the mill.

My question about hot short doesn't really relate to 6061 or 5052 though
as those weld okay if you have the skills and the equipment.

--
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Re: What is Hot Short?

<lybkp6bvup.fsf@void.com>

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From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:25:02 +0000
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 by: Richard Smith - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:25 UTC

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 11/16/2022 8:40 AM, Snag wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

> ...
> have found no real issue with welding 5052, 6061, or 3003 other than
> ...

There's a 5000-series casting alloy?
Is it good?
What is it good for?
I was thinking of marine / yacht applications...
(I am familiar with "LM25" / "A356 Al-Si-Mg)

Re: What is Hot Short?

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
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 by: Bob La Londe - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:30 UTC

On 11/15/2022 10:37 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability of
>> some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
>> machineability like 1144.
>
> It was a term used in the Sheffield steel industry I started in.
> * As I understand and recall it * (caveat)
> The term "short" meaning brittle or fractures has a general meaning.
> eg. "shortbread" - which as a type is a biscuit / cookie which has the
> property that it fractures readily if you apply a bending force to it
> ie. "hot short" and "shortbread" have the same meaning to the "short"
> in the name. Different meaning to dimension in this case.
>
> "hot short" means if you work the metal while hot, seeking
> malleability (not specifically ductily, which more relates to "cold"
> wire-drawing), you don't get malleability because the metal cracks
> and/or fractures during that hot-working. Where you would otherwise
> look to the metal deforming in a forming process with result of
> forming some useful product.
>
> Hot-shortness can be caused by solutes in the metal which form low
> melting point phases which do indeed melt during what would otherwise
> be a useful hot-working process.
> Segregation of non-metallic / semi-metallic impurities to grain
> boundaries could be another mechanism causing hot-shortness.
> etc.

That is interesting. Also confusing. Some while back I started using
1144 for some tools and parts because of its combination of modest
strength properties and machineability. Its been referred to as having
hot short properties when attempting to weld. I have not tried to weld
it, but I have done simple forging with it. The last project was a
handle for a slide lock drill press vise I built as a gift for a family
member. The handle was a simple piece of 1144 rod with the ends upset
and forged into a ball after being slid through the meat ball. (more of
a bell shape really) I had run across an old thread on a forum named
iforgeiron that seemed to indicate it was forgeable. I didn't really
have any issue other than the generally harder hammer blows required
with medium carbon steel over mild steel when forging at a medium red
heat. (Didn't want to overheat and risk decarburizing it.) Maybe I just
didn't get it hot enough to be an issue?

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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Re: What is Hot Short?

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From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:32:50 +0000
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 by: Richard Smith - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:32 UTC

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lypmdn8np5.fsf@void.com...
>
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>>...
>
> I've read that at the time Titanic was built the sulfur content was
> considered acceptable as long as the steel didn't show hot
> shortness. At the time they had little experience with brittleness
> when cold.

Riveted, if a plate broke it couldn't propagate beyond that plate. I
think they got cracked plates in those days, but you could rivet in
another. ie. consequences very low.
Welded - it would be a disaster with a crack ripping around the hull.
Then there was cost.
These days Western European steels are "blown down" to very clean,
lean and ductile. I measured the yield-stress of an S355 (50ksi -
A572Gr50) Structural Hollow Section and got 360MPa. The control is so
exact. Not what they had then.

Re: What is Hot Short?

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
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 by: Bob La Londe - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:36 UTC

On 11/16/2022 11:25 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 11/16/2022 8:40 AM, Snag wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>
>> ...
>> have found no real issue with welding 5052, 6061, or 3003 other than
>> ...
>
> There's a 5000-series casting alloy?
> Is it good?
> What is it good for?
> I was thinking of marine / yacht applications...
> (I am familiar with "LM25" / "A356 Al-Si-Mg)

I think ATP5 (cast aluminum tooling plate) is a 5000 series alloy.
Generally I like it better for fixtures than MIC6 which I believe is a
7000 series cast aluminum tooling plate. I think I read somewhere that
ATP5 is weldable, but its been a while. I could be mistaken.

Honestly for smaller fixture plates I really don't have much issue using
6061 wrought flat bar if I have some of a suitable size on hand.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl3cem$2dnel$1@dont-email.me>

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From: djb...@invalid.com (David Billington)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 19:08:06 +0000
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 by: David Billington - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 19:08 UTC

On 16/11/2022 16:33, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 11/16/2022 8:40 AM, Snag wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability
>>>>> of some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
>>>>> machineability like 1144.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning
>>>> with aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting ,
>>>> and the aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces
>>>> have a very grainy appearance .
>>>
>>>
>>> I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well.  7075
>>> is "generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be
>>> welded by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of
>>> things I have heard.  I didn't want to throw to much in there that
>>> could be wrong so as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids
>>> and get more towards the point.
>>>
>>> "I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough
>>> background information I'll find a tangent to argue about." LOL. No
>>> accusation there of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>    Every aluminum alloy I've melted down for casting stock has
>> exhibited this characteristic , in fact I rely on it . Especially
>> with stuff like alloy wheels/rims , that are too big to process any
>> other way . Lay that sucker down on a nice hot hardwood fire and when
>> it starts looking like it's about to melt (there are signs if you
>> recognize them) start dragging chunks off with a pair of blacksmith
>> tongs . I usually have a preheated crucible on standby in the foundry
>> furnace to receive them . Wheel to crucible to ingot mold to out of
>> my way while it cools .
>>    Speaking of casting , I've got a brand new .452/255gr bullet mold
>> in desperate need of some molten wheel weight/pure lead alloy ... I
>> was thinking .45 ACP when I bought it , but a couple of neighbors
>> have 1873 SAA replicas . They currently use them for fast draw
>> competition , but they're easily repurposed if the need arises .
>
> I think most of the "casting" alloys probably exhibit some of this.  I
> have found no real issue with welding 5052, 6061, or 3003 other than
> my general lack of skills.  I've also heard 6061 is particularly poor
> for casting unless you increase the silicon metal content.  I have
> several pounds of silicone metal on the shelf for such experimentation
> "someday."  I am concerned about its higher melting point, but I've
> been told it will dissolve at aluminum casting temperatures.  I've
> also heard you can "cast" 6061 under high pressure with rapid cooling
> and not get the crystallization it exhibits when gravity cast and
> "normally" cooled.  Of course this is a tangent.
>
>
>
>
The silicon will dissolve in the molten aluminium in the same way the
sugar dissolves in tea or coffee. I wondered once how they make modern
pewter (Britannia metal) which is usually 92/6/2 tin/antimony/copper as
copper has a much higher melting point than tin and it was explained
that it dissolves. It's the reason good soldering iron tips are iron
plated as iron is virtually insoluble in tin whereas copper is quite
soluble and I've seen the results with cheap soldering iron tips
degrading in use for that reason.

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl3cjc$2dnel$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=336&group=sci.engr.joining.welding#336

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From: djb...@invalid.com (David Billington)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 19:10:36 +0000
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 by: David Billington - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 19:10 UTC

On 16/11/2022 15:40, Snag wrote:
> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability
>>>> of some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
>>>> machineability like 1144.
>>>>
>>>
>>>    I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning
>>> with aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting ,
>>> and the aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces
>>> have a very grainy appearance .
>>
>>
>> I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well. 7075
>> is "generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be
>> welded by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of
>> things I have heard.  I didn't want to throw to much in there that
>> could be wrong so as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids
>> and get more towards the point.
>>
>> "I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough
>> background information I'll find a tangent to argue about." LOL. No
>> accusation there of course.
>>
>>
>>
>
>   Every aluminum alloy I've melted down for casting stock has
> exhibited this characteristic , in fact I rely on it . Especially with
> stuff like alloy wheels/rims , that are too big to process any other
> way . Lay that sucker down on a nice hot hardwood fire and when it
> starts looking like it's about to melt (there are signs if you
> recognize them) start dragging chunks off with a pair of blacksmith
> tongs . I usually have a preheated crucible on standby in the foundry
> furnace to receive them . Wheel to crucible to ingot mold to out of my
> way while it cools .
>   Speaking of casting , I've got a brand new .452/255gr bullet mold in
> desperate need of some molten wheel weight/pure lead alloy ... I was
> thinking .45 ACP when I bought it , but a couple of neighbors have
> 1873 SAA replicas . They currently use them for fast draw competition
> , but they're easily repurposed if the need arises .

From the sound of your description you may have heated it to above the
solidus temperature for the alloy in which case some of the alloy
constituent phases will be molten and act as you describe.

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tl3g30$2e4cv$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Snag_...@msn.com (Snag)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 14:10:08 -0600
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 by: Snag - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 20:10 UTC

On 11/16/2022 1:10 PM, David Billington wrote:
> On 16/11/2022 15:40, Snag wrote:
>> On 11/15/2022 4:20 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2022 3:12 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2022 3:48 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>>> Its something I have read a couple times about the non-weldability
>>>>> of some alloys. Particularly those that have additives for better
>>>>> machineability like 1144.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    I don't know about steel alloys , but it has a different meaning
>>>> with aluminum . With aluminum hot short is just short of melting ,
>>>> and the aluminum becomes very easy to break up , broken surfaces
>>>> have a very grainy appearance .
>>>
>>>
>>> I think I have heard it in reference to 7075 aluminum as well. 7075
>>> is "generally" not considered to be easily weldable, but it can be
>>> welded by some types of laser welding... being a parrot here of
>>> things I have heard.  I didn't want to throw to much in there that
>>> could be wrong so as hopefully to avoid arguments over my factoids
>>> and get more towards the point.
>>>
>>> "I don't know what you are asking, but if you provide enough
>>> background information I'll find a tangent to argue about." LOL. No
>>> accusation there of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>   Every aluminum alloy I've melted down for casting stock has
>> exhibited this characteristic , in fact I rely on it . Especially with
>> stuff like alloy wheels/rims , that are too big to process any other
>> way . Lay that sucker down on a nice hot hardwood fire and when it
>> starts looking like it's about to melt (there are signs if you
>> recognize them) start dragging chunks off with a pair of blacksmith
>> tongs . I usually have a preheated crucible on standby in the foundry
>> furnace to receive them . Wheel to crucible to ingot mold to out of my
>> way while it cools .
>>   Speaking of casting , I've got a brand new .452/255gr bullet mold in
>> desperate need of some molten wheel weight/pure lead alloy ... I was
>> thinking .45 ACP when I bought it , but a couple of neighbors have
>> 1873 SAA replicas . They currently use them for fast draw competition
>> , but they're easily repurposed if the need arises .
>
> From the sound of your description you may have heated it to above the
> solidus temperature for the alloy in which case some of the alloy
> constituent phases will be molten and act as you describe.
>
>

I never got into the science of it , I just know that aluminum has a
phase just short of melting where it's really really easy to rip chunks
off . Here's a link describing what you just said (I think ...)
https://www.thefabricator.com/thewelder/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-a-hotshot-s-guide-to-hot-short

Might help Bob with his query about hot short too ... FWIW I keep 4043
, 5356 , and 4047 filler on hand . The only time I had a problem with an
aluminum weld was when I repaired a cracked cast motorcycle part . Damn
thing cracked at the weld as soon as the mechanic started tightening the
bolts . Fortunately for me the replacement part cost just a few bucks
less than I charged for the repair ... I got paid with experience for
that job .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

Re: What is Hot Short?

<ly8rk83pdu.fsf@void.com>

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From: nul...@void.com (Richard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 21:48:45 +0000
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 by: Richard Smith - Fri, 18 Nov 2022 21:48 UTC

I'll not comment, other than I believe all 5000-series are weldable.

Re: What is Hot Short?

<tlavp8$1ft0$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.joining.welding
Subject: Re: What is Hot Short?
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 09:20:55 -0700
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Bob La Londe - Sat, 19 Nov 2022 16:20 UTC

On 11/18/2022 2:48 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> I'll not comment, other than I believe all 5000-series are weldable.

Well, the ATP5 I have is all 1 inch (25.4mm) or thicker. Its not
weldable by me. LOL.

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