... are Far Too Great, as to absolutely preclude any possibility of
travel or communications. Alien visits, past, present or future, are a
practical impossibility. This important message can't be stated often
enough.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:00:36 -0400, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>This important message can't be stated often enough

If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:

x-Moon's mean geocentric distance 238,856 miles(n.t.s.)-x
| 230,000 |
| 220,000 |
| 210,000 |
| 200,000 |
| 190,000 |
| 180,000 |
| 170,000 |
| 160,000 |
| 150,000 |
| 140,000 |
| 130,000 |
| 120,000 |
| 110,000 |
| 100,000 |
| 90,000 |
| 80,000 |
| 70,000 |
| 60,000 |
| 50,000 |
| 40,000 |
| 30,000 |
x------Geostationary orbit ~22,300 miles altitude-------x
x------Mid-altitude orbit ~12,500 miles altitude--------x
x------Low-altitude orbit below ~1200 miles altitude----x
x------JPL/NASA Space Shuttle orbit ~300 miles altitude-x
x------Intl. Space Station orbit ~220 miles altitude----x
x------Earth's mean sea level -0- miles altitude--------x

Arthur Charles Clarke was born to Charles Wright & Mary Nora
Willis-Clarke on Sunday 16 December 1917 at 13 Blenheim Road
(3W28:36,51N12:23) Minehead TA24 5PZ, Somersetshire, England.
(N. McAleer's biography "on the morning of December 16 1917")

Stanley Kubrick was born to Jacob Leonard & Sadie Gertrude Perveler-
Kubrick at Society for the Lying-In Hospital 305 2nd Ave. (73W59:01,
40N44:05) Manhattan New York, NY, on Thursday July 26, 1928 (AA/BR).

D <J@m> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:00:36 -0400, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>This important message can't be stated often enough
> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
....

Gas molecultes whip off the top of the atmosphere all the time.
It takes them only about 1 day to go the distance to the moon.
In a billion years they could reache the ~80 nearest stars.

I noticed a recent article arguing in a billion years a civilization
determined enough to first reach the region of the galactic core
and thence the rest of the galaxy.

Of course it would probably have to be a sentient species and that
lets out anything native to this planet.

R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
> D <J@m> wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:00:36 -0400, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>>This important message can't be stated often enough
>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:

If anyone is into modestly-sized numbers then consider:

- 2 trillion galaxies
- our own galaxy is around 13 bn years old and likely formed very
soon after the BB
- the avg galaxy has 100 mn stars
- our star is around 4 bn years old and the earth has been around
almost as long
- life on earth started very soon after the planet became reasonably stable

We can "deduce" it might take a civilization from scratch maybe 4 bn years
to invent space travel. Maybe 100 y to perfect it.

Of course one of those O(10^20) groups might have invented some kinda
warp but more probably instantaneous trans-dimensional drive and in
10 billion years the secret might have leaked out to "everywhere"
and "everywhen".

The universe then even with a simple 4d toy topology we think we understand
at least partly should already have spawned around O(10^20) space-travelling
civilizations and the odds are 3 or 4 of them reached here by
at least 4 billion years ago.

No wonder there are things buzzing around that scare the militaries.

On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:05:56 PM UTC-7, D wrote:

> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:

If you keep repeating the mantra "we never went to the moon" for a long enough time, it will never, ever be the case. There is overwhelming evidence that we went to the moon, and more than once...

palsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:05:56 PM UTC-7, D wrote:
>
>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
>
> If you keep repeating the mantra "we never went to the moon" for a long enough time, it will never, ever be the case. There is overwhelming evidence that we went to the moon, and more than once...

With a good enough telescope you can see the footprints and tyre tracks
next to the lunar lander legs at 2 sites at least.
Pretty good "fakery". :)

R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
> palsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:05:56 PM UTC-7, D wrote:
>>
>>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
>>
>> If you keep repeating the mantra "we never went to the moon" for a long enough time, it will never, ever be the case. There is overwhelming evidence that we went to the moon, and more than once...
>
> With a good enough telescope you can see the footprints and tyre tracks
> next to the lunar lander legs at 2 sites at least.
> Pretty good "fakery". :)

Just checked and still have at least one I helped cook up a while ago:

<http://kym.massbus.org/apollo11.jpg>

The hex blob at 10 oclock is the lander descent stage.
You can see footprints going down to a reflector S of the lander.
Footprints go off the the NW and E.
A lot of this seems overexposed but dont worry -- that was the
fashion at the time. :)

palsing wrote on 28/08/2021 3:13 pm:
> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 1:05:56 PM UTC-7, D wrote:
>
>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
>
> If you keep repeating the mantra "we never went to the moon" for a
> long enough time, it will never, ever be the case. There is
> overwhelming evidence that we went to the moon, and more than
> once...
>
Didn't we see, on "The Big Bang Theory", where the boys fired a LASER at
the Moon and got a reflection back a few seconds later from one of those
mirror thingees that was left at one of the Lunar Landing sites??

If it was on "The Big Bang Theory", it *MUST* have happened!! ;-P
--
Daniel

On 28/08/2021 4:00 am, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
> ... are Far Too Great, as to absolutely preclude any possibility of
> travel or communications. Alien visits, past, present or future, are a
> practical impossibility. This important message can't be stated often
> enough.
>

Correct. There are still too many people who believe it can and will
happen one day - sad.

On 28/08/2021 10:43 am, R Kym Horsell wrote:
> R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
>> D <J@m> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:00:36 -0400, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>>> This important message can't be stated often enough
>>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
>
> If anyone is into modestly-sized numbers then consider:
>
> - 2 trillion galaxies

Prob more.

> - our own galaxy is around 13 bn years old and likely formed very
> soon after the BB

No such thing as BB.

> - the avg galaxy has 100 mn stars
> - our star is around 4 bn years old and the earth has been around
> almost as long
> - life on earth started very soon after the planet became reasonably stable
>
> We can "deduce" it might take a civilization from scratch maybe 4 bn years
> to invent space travel. Maybe 100 y to perfect it.
>

Space travel is not a big deal as it's impossible to get to another star
system, let alone another galaxy.

> Of course one of those O(10^20) groups might have invented some kinda
> warp but more probably instantaneous trans-dimensional drive and in

Utter bollocks. May as well say they've invented magic.

> 10 billion years the secret might have leaked out to "everywhere"
> and "everywhen".

There is no secret. The distances are simply too vast to ever entertain
prospect of meeting other intelligent civilizations. There are limits
and things that are actually impossible you know.

>
> The universe then even with a simple 4d toy topology we think we understand
> at least partly should already have spawned around O(10^20) space-travelling
> civilizations and the odds are 3 or 4 of them reached here by
> at least 4 billion years ago.
>
> No wonder there are things buzzing around that scare the militaries.
>

You don't know what you're talking about. Complete nonsense. We will
never travel to another star system. It's one of those things that is
actually impossible.

Whisper wrote on 28/8/21 6:59 pm:
> On 28/08/2021 10:43 am, R Kym Horsell wrote:
>> R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
>>> D <J@m> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:00:36 -0400, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>>>> This important message can't be stated often enough
>>>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>>>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
>>
>> If anyone is into modestly-sized numbers then consider:
>>
>> - 2 trillion galaxies
>
> Prob more.

I can remember reading somewhere, 15 maybe 20 years ago, that one of the
reputable Creation Theories doing the rounds then was that 'The Big Bang
that created out Universe was the result of two other Universes bumping
into each other and some of the matter from each of those Universes
leaked through into a new 'Dimension' and that was Our Universe/Dimension!!

Too 'D & M' for me!!
--
Daniel

On 28/08/2021 7:34 pm, Daniel65 wrote:
> Whisper wrote on 28/8/21 6:59 pm:
>> On 28/08/2021 10:43 am, R Kym Horsell wrote:
>>> R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
>>>> D <J@m> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:00:36 -0400, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>>>>> This important message can't be stated often enough
>>>>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>>>>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
>>>
>>> If anyone is into modestly-sized numbers then consider:
>>>
>>> - 2 trillion galaxies
>>
>> Prob more.
>
> I can remember reading somewhere, 15 maybe 20 years ago, that one of the
> reputable Creation Theories doing the rounds then was that 'The Big Bang
> that created out Universe was the result of two other Universes bumping
> into each other and some of the matter from each of those Universes
> leaked through into a new 'Dimension' and that was Our Universe/Dimension!!
>
> Too 'D & M' for me!!

It's truly frightening what passes for 'science' these days - shudder.

>
>I can remember reading somewhere, 15 maybe 20 years ago, that one of the
>reputable Creation Theories doing the rounds then was that 'The Big Bang
>that created out Universe was the result of two other Universes bumping
>into each other and some of the matter from each of those Universes
>leaked through into a new 'Dimension' and that was Our Universe/Dimension!!
>

Universe means everything. There can be only one.

>>
>> If anyone is into modestly-sized numbers then consider:
>>
>> - 2 trillion galaxies
>
>Prob more.
>

Universe is infinite so likely infinite number of galaxies.

>
>> - our own galaxy is around 13 bn years old and likely formed very
>> soon after the BB
>
>No such thing as BB.
>

Absolutely correct. It is a ridiculous notion based on the current
apparent motion of galaxies and extrapolating back and assumes
everything sprang from a point.

Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> Whisper wrote on 28/8/21 6:59 pm:
>> On 28/08/2021 10:43 am, R Kym Horsell wrote:
>>> R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> wrote:
>>>> D <J@m> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:00:36 -0400, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>>>>> This important message can't be stated often enough
>>>>> If you keep repeating the mantra "We went to the Moon" for a long
>>>>> enough time, it makes it become true. Like magic, it's bewitching:
>>>
>>> If anyone is into modestly-sized numbers then consider:
>>>
>>> - 2 trillion galaxies
>>
>> Prob more.
>
> I can remember reading somewhere, 15 maybe 20 years ago, that one of the
> reputable Creation Theories doing the rounds then was that 'The Big Bang
> that created out Universe was the result of two other Universes bumping
> into each other and some of the matter from each of those Universes
> leaked through into a new 'Dimension' and that was Our Universe/Dimension!!
>
> Too 'D & M' for me!!

You're talkibg about M-theory or "brain" theory.
Under some versions different "brains" can crash together and
essentially create new universes.
No scientists AFAIK proposed our universe was somehow a special case
or tried to argue it was anything more than mathematical speculation.

Science is just at the begining stages of trying to understand how
reality really works. It's a tautology that it's very very complicated
although it appears trivial if you havent gone into the details.
You look around you and think everything obviously *Is* what it
appears to be.
But it cant be according to either GR or QP.

Under GR e.g. time is "just another dimensions" that leads to
the concept of the Block Universe where everything is frozen and nothing
really changes.

Think of a graph showing the history of a moving ball. Along the
horiz axis is time. Going to -ve inf (if you like) to the left
and +inf to the right. The y axis in a simple case indicates the position
of the ball. A line on the graph shows where the ball is at any time.

Seems simple. No surprises. But consider. What is changing in the graph?
Nothing. It is fixed. You can look at any point of the graph to
find out where the ball is supposed to be at that time, but nothing
is moving.

In the Bloch Universe the whole universe is like that graph. It is all
laid out and nothing is moving. Nothing is changing. Any being in that
universe can not remember anything because that requires a change in
their brains.

So how can any of this be? GR is supposed to be one of the 2 best theories
we have, yet it seems to lead to very strange places.

Unfortunately, much the same thing happens in Quantum Physics as well.
You end up with the concept of a wavefunction that can not be inside
the universe it is describing.

Both theories seem to point to a universe that is a frozen fish tank
and the minds of sentient beings don't seem to exist inside the universe,
but outside where they can change their minds.

You get too far into the math or logic and you start to make room
for every crazy supernatural idea you've ever heard of being possible.

So either our 2 best theories are crazy or the universe is.
I vote the latter.

casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>
>>I can remember reading somewhere, 15 maybe 20 years ago, that one of the
>>reputable Creation Theories doing the rounds then was that 'The Big Bang
>>that created out Universe was the result of two other Universes bumping
>>into each other and some of the matter from each of those Universes
>>leaked through into a new 'Dimension' and that was Our Universe/Dimension!!
>>
>
> Universe means everything. There can be only one.

Like the Galaxy was c1900!

--
Average daily max temps for Siberia:

Decade Avg TMAX
(deg C)
1900 -37.3
1910 -28.2
1920 -8.0
1930 -4.0
1940 -4.7
1950 -5.1
1960 -5.3
1970 -5.4
1980 -5.1
1990 -4.5
2000 -3.8
2010 -2.6
2020 -0.02(*)
(*) Partial data
Source: GHCN v3

casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>> If anyone is into modestly-sized numbers then consider:
>>> - 2 trillion galaxies
>>Prob more.
> Universe is infinite so likely infinite number of galaxies.

What is the gravity field or tides inside an infinite universe?

Start simple.

Start with sitting on the surface of an infinite sphere.
g = GM/R^2 where M and R go to inf.
M = 4/3 pi R^3 \rho.
I.e. g = 4/3 pi G \rho R.
I.e. g goes to infinity if the matter density is nonzero.

Doesnt seem to be nice!

Now consider sitting between 2 infinite spheres.
If they are identical and you are a point then fine. Field is 0.

If they are not identical or you are not a point then
insert shredding noises from the tidal forces.

On 8/27/2021 11:00 AM, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
> ... are Far Too Great, as to absolutely preclude any possibility of
> travel or communications. Alien visits, past, present or future, are a
> practical impossibility. This important message can't be stated often
> enough.
>

Who said the above?

Did anyone knowledgeable or successful say it?

Or, is this only casagiannon's constant rant?

Many smart, successful, and competent leaders
like Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson,
Paul Allen, David Grinspoon, Seth Shostak, David Brin
and Jill Tarter all feel we need to search for
communications with aliens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawkin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI_Institute

>> ... are Far Too Great, as to absolutely preclude any possibility of
>> travel or communications. Alien visits, past, present or future, are a
>> practical impossibility. This important message can't be stated often
>> enough.
>>
>
>Who said the above?

Obviously just me in this particular instance.

>
>Many smart, successful, and competent leaders
>like Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson,
>Paul Allen, David Grinspoon, Seth Shostak, David Brin
>and Jill Tarter all feel we need to search for
>communications with aliens.

Fine. I never claimed or implied otherwise and look forward to
anything that might turn up.

In alt.astronomy a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/27/2021 11:00 AM, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>> ... are Far Too Great, as to absolutely preclude any possibility of
>> travel or communications. Alien visits, past, present or future, are a
>> practical impossibility. This important message can't be stated often
>> enough.
> Who said the above?
> Did anyone knowledgeable or successful say it?
> Or, is this only casagiannon's constant rant?

As that Einstein guy said -- any good scientist looks at the evidence and
says something is possible they are probably right.(*)
If they Look at the evidence and say it's impossible then probably wrong.
She should assume goes double for any poster on USENET.

(*) Kinda spoiled the point with his comments on quantum.

> Many smart, successful, and competent leaders
> like Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson,
> Paul Allen, David Grinspoon, Seth Shostak, David Brin
> and Jill Tarter all feel we need to search for
> communications with aliens.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawkin
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI_Institute

--
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On 8/31/2021 11:27 AM, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>
>>> ... are Far Too Great, as to absolutely preclude any possibility of
>>> travel or communications. Alien visits, past, present or future, are a
>>> practical impossibility. This important message can't be stated often
>>> enough.
>>>
>> Who said the above?
>
> Obviously just me in this particular instance.
>
>> Many smart, successful, and competent leaders
>> like Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson,
>> Paul Allen, David Grinspoon, Seth Shostak, David Brin
>> and Jill Tarter all feel we need to search for
>> communications with aliens.
>
> Fine. I never claimed or implied otherwise and look forward to
> anything that might turn up.
>

You certainly 'more than implied otherwise' when
you stated,

"Interstellar Distances -- are Far Too Great, as to
absolutely preclude any possibility of - - communications."

>
>You certainly 'more than implied otherwise' when
>you stated,
>
>"Interstellar Distances -- are Far Too Great, as to
>absolutely preclude any possibility of - - communications."

Closest star distance is over 4 LY, so even then, communications would
be awkward indeed. e.g. "Hi, I'm from Earth" < 4+ years > "Hi back
etc. " < 4+ years > " ... " < 4+ years > ...

Communications with a typical star or another galaxy are essentially
impossible. Still, worth a try I suppose.

In alt.astronomy casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>You certainly 'more than implied otherwise' when
>>you stated,
>>"Interstellar Distances -- are Far Too Great, as to
>>absolutely preclude any possibility of - - communications."
> Closest star distance is over 4 LY, so even then, communications would
> be awkward indeed. e.g. "Hi, I'm from Earth" < 4+ years > "Hi back
> etc. " < 4+ years > " ... " < 4+ years > ...
....

Only if a moron were in charge.

As we've covered before, if anyone was silly enough to setup such a link
then it would be each side dumping information in the most-important-first
order and then searching their incoming stream for the useful information.

Watch how two people exchange gossip over the back fence.
They both talk and go back home later to analyze the rsults.

This works because they have an awful lot in common and dont need to
exchange hillbilly-level Q&A.

In the case of "aliens" then (as we simplisticly assume it) they
have the observable universe in common and dont need to ask each other
the small stuff.

On 31/08/2021 22:49, R Kym Horsell wrote:
> In alt.astronomy a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 8/27/2021 11:00 AM, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>> ... are Far Too Great, as to absolutely preclude any possibility of
>>> travel or communications. Alien visits, past, present or future, are a
>>> practical impossibility. This important message can't be stated often
>>> enough.
>> Who said the above?
>> Did anyone knowledgeable or successful say it?
>> Or, is this only casagiannon's constant rant?
>
> As that Einstein guy said -- any good scientist looks at the evidence and
> says something is possible they are probably right.(*)
> If they Look at the evidence and say it's impossible then probably wrong.
> She should assume goes double for any poster on USENET.

Not Einstein, but Arthur C. Clarke, IIRC.

And as Carl Sagan pointed out, a radio contact with another civilization
would not exactly involve a snappy conversation.

>
> (*) Kinda spoiled the point with his comments on quantum.
>
>> Many smart, successful, and competent leaders
>> like Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson,
>> Paul Allen, David Grinspoon, Seth Shostak, David Brin
>> and Jill Tarter all feel we need to search for
>> communications with aliens.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawkin
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI_Institute
>

--
Mike Dworetsky

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On 9/1/2021 10:13 AM, casagiannoni@optimum.net wrote:
>>
>> You certainly 'more than implied otherwise' when
>> you stated,
>>
>> "Interstellar Distances -- are Far Too Great, as to
>> absolutely preclude any possibility of - - communications."
>
>
> Closest star distance is over 4 LY, so even then, communications would
> be awkward indeed. e.g. "Hi, I'm from Earth" < 4+ years > "Hi back
> etc. " < 4+ years > " ... " < 4+ years > ...
>
> Communications with a typical star or another galaxy are essentially
> impossible. Still, worth a try I suppose.
>
Casagiannoni offers the limp excuse that
communications would be "awkward indeed".

"Awkward" they would be, however any message
that we humans receive that is clear and without
a doubt from intelligent aliens would greatly
transform how we viewed ourselves and have
a major impact on out entire civilization.

Just the fact 'they' exist would be plenty
for us to absorb. No other details would be
needed immediately.