I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.

His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:

Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?

[Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
But really, it's just the opposite.

-- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451

Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.

The word "songbird" naturally invites the question: did their LCA
(Last Common Ancestor) have what would today be termed a
"song" by ornithologists? or did "songs" arise independently in
several lineages from birds without them?

Another, unusual question: has there been any attempt to trace
the "systematics" of bird songs, the way linguists study
the evolution and classification of languages? It seems unlikely,
given that the repertoire of birds is so limited. But I thought I'd
put the idea out there for others to comment on.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On 10/6/21 7:20 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
> from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>
> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,

Australian babblers, *Pomatostomus*, not to be confused with babblers in
the rest of the world.

> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>
> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>
> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
> But really, it's just the opposite.
>
> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451

The original source for all that is this: Barker F.K., Barrowclough
G.F., Groth J.G. A phylogenetic hypothesis for passerine birds;
Taxonomic and biogeographic implications of an analysis of nuclear DNA
sequence data. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Series B
2002; 269:295-308.

Essentially, oscines have escapes from Australasia into the rest of the
world perhaps as few as three times, and that's what populated the rest
of the continents.

> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
>
> The word "songbird" naturally invites the question: did their LCA
> (Last Common Ancestor) have what would today be termed a
> "song" by ornithologists? or did "songs" arise independently in
> several lineages from birds without them?

The former. Incidentally, by "songbird", you are referring to Oscines,
not Passeriformes.

> Another, unusual question: has there been any attempt to trace
> the "systematics" of bird songs, the way linguists study
> the evolution and classification of languages? It seems unlikely,
> given that the repertoire of birds is so limited. But I thought I'd
> put the idea out there for others to comment on.

No. One could score a few general features of song for phylogenetic
analysis, and there are some obvious similarities within groups. However
it would be hard to code those similarities rigorously, and I don't
recall anyone doing it. The anatomy of the syrinx has been used on occasion.

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
<peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

>I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>
>His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>
>Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>
>[Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>But really, it's just the opposite.
>
>-- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451

See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
superradiation.
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916

and if you can afford it:
https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/

which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.

>Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
>after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
>of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.

See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425

>The word "songbird" naturally invites the question: did their LCA
>(Last Common Ancestor) have what would today be termed a
>"song" by ornithologists? or did "songs" arise independently in
>several lineages from birds without them?
>
>Another, unusual question: has there been any attempt to trace
>the "systematics" of bird songs, the way linguists study
>the evolution and classification of languages? It seems unlikely,
>given that the repertoire of birds is so limited. But I thought I'd
>put the idea out there for others to comment on.
>
>
>Peter Nyikos
>Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>University of South Carolina
>http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>
>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>
>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>
>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>
>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>
> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
> superradiation.
> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>
> and if you can afford it:
> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>
> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.

Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.

>> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
>> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
>> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
>
> See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
> targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425

Be warned that Prum's phylogeny is problematic in several ways, though
it's probably good enough for the time-calibrated version to be useful.
And within passerines it should be fine.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348268701_Data_Types_and_the_Phylogeny_of_Neoaves

>> The word "songbird" naturally invites the question: did their LCA
>> (Last Common Ancestor) have what would today be termed a
>> "song" by ornithologists? or did "songs" arise independently in
>> several lineages from birds without them?
>>
>> Another, unusual question: has there been any attempt to trace
>> the "systematics" of bird songs, the way linguists study
>> the evolution and classification of languages? It seems unlikely,
>> given that the repertoire of birds is so limited. But I thought I'd
>> put the idea out there for others to comment on.
>>
>>
>> Peter Nyikos
>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>> University of South Carolina
>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
<jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:

>On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>
>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>
>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>
>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>
>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>
>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>> superradiation.
>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>
>> and if you can afford it:
>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>
>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>
>Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.

Perfect in combination with:

https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
or
https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/

All quite hefty volumes.

>>> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
>>> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
>>> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
>>
>> See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
>> targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425
>
>Be warned that Prum's phylogeny is problematic in several ways, though
>it's probably good enough for the time-calibrated version to be useful.
>And within passerines it should be fine.
>
>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348268701_Data_Types_and_the_Phylogeny_of_Neoaves

Thanks.
It has a very interesting ref: "Pennaraptoran theropod dinosaurs: past
progress and new frontiers", a 353 pp. volume of the Bulletin of the
American Museum of Natural History edited by Michael Pittman and Xing
Xu. Open access: https://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/7237

On 10/7/21 11:12 AM, Pandora wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>
>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>
>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>
>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>
>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>
>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>> superradiation.
>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>
>>> and if you can afford it:
>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>
>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>
>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>
> Perfect in combination with:
>
> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
> or
> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>
> All quite hefty volumes.

All the Birds is very handy. But it isn't hefty compared to the 16
volumes of HBBW, which I also have.

>>>> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
>>>> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
>>>> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
>>>
>>> See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
>>> targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425
>>
>> Be warned that Prum's phylogeny is problematic in several ways, though
>> it's probably good enough for the time-calibrated version to be useful.
>> And within passerines it should be fine.
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348268701_Data_Types_and_the_Phylogeny_of_Neoaves
>
> Thanks.
> It has a very interesting ref: "Pennaraptoran theropod dinosaurs: past
> progress and new frontiers", a 353 pp. volume of the Bulletin of the
> American Museum of Natural History edited by Michael Pittman and Xing
> Xu. Open access: https://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/7237
>

On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:20:18 -0700, John Harshman
<jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:

>On 10/7/21 11:12 AM, Pandora wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>>
>>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>>
>>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>>
>>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>>> superradiation.
>>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>>
>>>> and if you can afford it:
>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>>
>>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>>
>>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>>
>> Perfect in combination with:
>>
>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>> or
>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>>
>> All quite hefty volumes.
>
>All the Birds is very handy. But it isn't hefty compared to the 16
>volumes of HBBW, which I also have.

I used to carry those around with me in my backpack all the time,
until my physician prescribed Collins Birds of the World:

https://www.nhbs.com/collins-birds-of-the-world-arlott-book

On 10/8/21 4:10 AM, Pandora wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:20:18 -0700, John Harshman
> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/7/21 11:12 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>>>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>>>
>>>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>>>> superradiation.
>>>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>>>
>>>>> and if you can afford it:
>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>>>
>>>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>>>
>>>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>>>
>>> Perfect in combination with:
>>>
>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>>> or
>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>>>
>>> All quite hefty volumes.
>>
>> All the Birds is very handy. But it isn't hefty compared to the 16
>> volumes of HBBW, which I also have.
>
> I used to carry those around with me in my backpack all the time,
> until my physician prescribed Collins Birds of the World:
>
> https://www.nhbs.com/collins-birds-of-the-world-arlott-book
>
Hadn't seen that one. Presumably it had been in production before the
Lynx volume was known about. Doesn't seem to fare well in the
comparative review. And what an odd coincidence.

On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:25:57 -0700, John Harshman
<jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:

>On 10/8/21 4:10 AM, Pandora wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:20:18 -0700, John Harshman
>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/7/21 11:12 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>>>>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>>>>> superradiation.
>>>>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and if you can afford it:
>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>>>>
>>>> Perfect in combination with:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>>>> or
>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>>>>
>>>> All quite hefty volumes.
>>>
>>> All the Birds is very handy. But it isn't hefty compared to the 16
>>> volumes of HBBW, which I also have.
>>
>> I used to carry those around with me in my backpack all the time,
>> until my physician prescribed Collins Birds of the World:
>>
>> https://www.nhbs.com/collins-birds-of-the-world-arlott-book
>>
>Hadn't seen that one. Presumably it had been in production before the
>Lynx volume was known about. Doesn't seem to fare well in the
>comparative review. And what an odd coincidence.

I guess it's about as compact a paper reference you can get of all the
birds. Then there's also:
https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/home

On 10/8/21 11:53 AM, Pandora wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:25:57 -0700, John Harshman
> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/8/21 4:10 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:20:18 -0700, John Harshman
>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/7/21 11:12 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>>>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>>>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>>>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>>>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>>>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>>>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>>>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>>>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>>>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>>>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>>>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>>>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>>>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>>>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>>>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>>>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>>>>>> superradiation.
>>>>>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and if you can afford it:
>>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perfect in combination with:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>>>>> or
>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>>>>>
>>>>> All quite hefty volumes.
>>>>
>>>> All the Birds is very handy. But it isn't hefty compared to the 16
>>>> volumes of HBBW, which I also have.
>>>
>>> I used to carry those around with me in my backpack all the time,
>>> until my physician prescribed Collins Birds of the World:
>>>
>>> https://www.nhbs.com/collins-birds-of-the-world-arlott-book
>>>
>> Hadn't seen that one. Presumably it had been in production before the
>> Lynx volume was known about. Doesn't seem to fare well in the
>> comparative review. And what an odd coincidence.
>
> I guess it's about as compact a paper reference you can get of all the
> birds. Then there's also:
> https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/home
>
Not exactly a field guide, though, is it?

On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:02:46 -0700, John Harshman
<jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:

>On 10/8/21 11:53 AM, Pandora wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:25:57 -0700, John Harshman
>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/8/21 4:10 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:20:18 -0700, John Harshman
>>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/7/21 11:12 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>>>>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>>>>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>>>>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>>>>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>>>>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>>>>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>>>>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>>>>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>>>>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>>>>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>>>>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>>>>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>>>>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>>>>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>>>>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>>>>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>>>>>>> superradiation.
>>>>>>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and if you can afford it:
>>>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perfect in combination with:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All quite hefty volumes.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the Birds is very handy. But it isn't hefty compared to the 16
>>>>> volumes of HBBW, which I also have.
>>>>
>>>> I used to carry those around with me in my backpack all the time,
>>>> until my physician prescribed Collins Birds of the World:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nhbs.com/collins-birds-of-the-world-arlott-book
>>>>
>>> Hadn't seen that one. Presumably it had been in production before the
>>> Lynx volume was known about. Doesn't seem to fare well in the
>>> comparative review. And what an odd coincidence.
>>
>> I guess it's about as compact a paper reference you can get of all the
>> birds. Then there's also:
>> https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/home
>>
>Not exactly a field guide, though, is it?

A 5G tablet in the middle of Amazonia is not yet a perfect experience.

On 10/8/21 12:08 PM, Pandora wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:02:46 -0700, John Harshman
> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/8/21 11:53 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:25:57 -0700, John Harshman
>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/8/21 4:10 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:20:18 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/7/21 11:12 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>>>>>>> <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>>> <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>>>>>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>>>>>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>>>>>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>>>>>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>>>>>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>>>>>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>>>>>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>>>>>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>>>>>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>>>>>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>>>>>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>>>>>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>>>>>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>>>>>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>>>>>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>>>>>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>>>>>>>> superradiation.
>>>>>>>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and if you can afford it:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perfect in combination with:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All quite hefty volumes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the Birds is very handy. But it isn't hefty compared to the 16
>>>>>> volumes of HBBW, which I also have.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to carry those around with me in my backpack all the time,
>>>>> until my physician prescribed Collins Birds of the World:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nhbs.com/collins-birds-of-the-world-arlott-book
>>>>>
>>>> Hadn't seen that one. Presumably it had been in production before the
>>>> Lynx volume was known about. Doesn't seem to fare well in the
>>>> comparative review. And what an odd coincidence.
>>>
>>> I guess it's about as compact a paper reference you can get of all the
>>> birds. Then there's also:
>>> https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/home
>>>
>> Not exactly a field guide, though, is it?
>
> A 5G tablet in the middle of Amazonia is not yet a perfect experience.
>
I used phone app field guides entirely satisfactorily in both Botswana
and Australia. But there aren't any available for lots of places.

On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
> <jhar...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
> >> <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
> >>>from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
> >>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
> >>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
> >>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
> >>>
> >>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
> >>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
> >>>
> >>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
> >>>
> >>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
> >>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
> >>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
> >>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
> >>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
> >>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
> >>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
> >>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
> >>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
> >>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
> >>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
> >>> But really, it's just the opposite.
> >>>
> >>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
> >>
> >> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
> >> superradiation.
> >> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
> >>
> >> and if you can afford it:
> >> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
> >>
> >> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
> >
> >Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
> Perfect in combination with:
>
> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
> or
> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>
> All quite hefty volumes.
> >>> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
> >>> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
> >>> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
> >>
> >> See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
> >> targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425
> >
> >Be warned that Prum's phylogeny is problematic in several ways, though
> >it's probably good enough for the time-calibrated version to be useful.
> >And within passerines it should be fine.
> >
> >https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348268701_Data_Types_and_the_Phylogeny_of_Neoaves
> Thanks.
> It has a very interesting ref: "Pennaraptoran theropod dinosaurs: past
> progress and new frontiers", a 353 pp. volume of the Bulletin of the
> American Museum of Natural History edited by Michael Pittman and Xing
> Xu. Open access: https://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/7237

Pandora, why are pennaraptoran theropods uniquely tied to birds, aside from feathers?

On 10/8/21 8:17 PM, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>> <jhar...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>>>> <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>>>>>
>>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>>>>>
>>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>>>>
>>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>>>> superradiation.
>>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>>>>
>>>> and if you can afford it:
>>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>>>>
>>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>>>
>>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>> Perfect in combination with:
>>
>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>> or
>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>>
>> All quite hefty volumes.
>>>>> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
>>>>> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
>>>>> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
>>>>
>>>> See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
>>>> targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425
>>>
>>> Be warned that Prum's phylogeny is problematic in several ways, though
>>> it's probably good enough for the time-calibrated version to be useful.
>>> And within passerines it should be fine.
>>>
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348268701_Data_Types_and_the_Phylogeny_of_Neoaves
>> Thanks.
>> It has a very interesting ref: "Pennaraptoran theropod dinosaurs: past
>> progress and new frontiers", a 353 pp. volume of the Bulletin of the
>> American Museum of Natural History edited by Michael Pittman and Xing
>> Xu. Open access: https://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/7237
>
> Pandora, why are pennaraptoran theropods uniquely tied to birds, aside from feathers?
>
>
You should probably look at Chapter 1.

On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 12:03:56 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> On 10/8/21 8:17 PM, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> >> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
> >> <jhar...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
> >>>> <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
> >>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
> >>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
> >>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
> >>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
> >>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
> >>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
> >>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
> >>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
> >>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
> >>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
> >>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
> >>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
> >>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
> >>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
> >>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
> >>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
> >>>>
> >>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
> >>>> superradiation.
> >>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
> >>>>
> >>>> and if you can afford it:
> >>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
> >>>>
> >>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
> >>>
> >>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
> >> Perfect in combination with:
> >>
> >> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
> >> or
> >> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
> >>
> >> All quite hefty volumes.
> >>>>> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
> >>>>> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
> >>>>> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
> >>>>
> >>>> See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
> >>>> targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
> >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425
> >>>
> >>> Be warned that Prum's phylogeny is problematic in several ways, though
> >>> it's probably good enough for the time-calibrated version to be useful.
> >>> And within passerines it should be fine.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348268701_Data_Types_and_the_Phylogeny_of_Neoaves
> >> Thanks.
> >> It has a very interesting ref: "Pennaraptoran theropod dinosaurs: past
> >> progress and new frontiers", a 353 pp. volume of the Bulletin of the
> >> American Museum of Natural History edited by Michael Pittman and Xing
> >> Xu. Open access: https://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/7237
> >
> > Pandora, why are pennaraptoran theropods uniquely tied to birds, aside from feathers?
> >
> >
> You should probably look at Chapter 1.
Respectfully, I await Pandora's response.

On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 21:07:42 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 12:03:56 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 10/8/21 8:17 PM, Daud Deden wrote:
>> > On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:41:09 -0700, John Harshman
>> >> <jhar...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 10/7/21 7:00 AM, Pandora wrote:
>> >>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
>> >>>> <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I learned about this hypothesis, which seems to be well supported,
>> >>>> >from an interview of Harvard Professor Scott V. Edwards that appeared
>> >>>>> in a leading biology textbook over a densely printed 2-page spread back in 2008.
>> >>>>> The interview, titled "Mechanisms of Evolution," was focused on the MHC
>> >>>>> genes of birds and their contribution to disease resistance.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> His doctoral dissertation had been on Australian birds known as babblers,
>> >>>>> and the last question of the interview returned to Australia with the question:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Is it true that all of the world's songbirds got their start in Australia?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> [Answer:] Many lines of evidence suggest that Australia and nearby
>> >>>>> New Guinea may have been the cradle of songbird evolution.
>> >>>>> And more broadly, Gondwana may have been the origin of many groups of birds.
>> >>>>> Gondwana was an ancient supercontinent that included most of the
>> >>>>> landmasses that are now in the Southern Hemisphere. Some of the oldest
>> >>>>> fossil songbirds have been found in Australia. The evidence suggests that
>> >>>>> many new groups of songbirds arose in Australia around 55-65 million
>> >>>>> years ago. They then spread around the globe. Also, our North American
>> >>>>> crows and jays trace their roots back to Australia. It's interesting that
>> >>>>> taxonomists in the early 20th century thought that Australian bird species
>> >>>>> were all just twigs of evolutionary trees rooted in the Northern Hemisphere.
>> >>>>> But really, it's just the opposite.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -- _Biology_, by Campbell, Reece et al., 8th ed., Pearson, 2008, p. 451
>> >>>>
>> >>>> See Oliveros et al. 2019, Earth history and the passerine
>> >>>> superradiation.
>> >>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/16/7916
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and if you can afford it:
>> >>>> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/the-largest-avian-radiation/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> which is very detailed, with phylogenies of every family.
>> >>>
>> >>> Also handy is another Lynx book, Bird Families of the World.
>> >> Perfect in combination with:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/hbw-and-birdlife-international-illustrated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-the-world-set-of-two-volumes/
>> >> or
>> >> https://www.lynxeds.com/product/all-the-birds-of-the-world/
>> >>
>> >> All quite hefty volumes.
>> >>>>> Note the dates: this burst of evolution was in the 10 million years immediately
>> >>>>> after the great K-T extinction, which saw the origin and diversification
>> >>>>> of numerous mammalian orders as well as of birds.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> See Prum et al. 2015, A comprehensive phylogeny of birds (Aves) using
>> >>>> targeted next-generation DNA sequencing.
>> >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282651425
>> >>>
>> >>> Be warned that Prum's phylogeny is problematic in several ways, though
>> >>> it's probably good enough for the time-calibrated version to be useful.
>> >>> And within passerines it should be fine.
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348268701_Data_Types_and_the_Phylogeny_of_Neoaves
>> >> Thanks.
>> >> It has a very interesting ref: "Pennaraptoran theropod dinosaurs: past
>> >> progress and new frontiers", a 353 pp. volume of the Bulletin of the
>> >> American Museum of Natural History edited by Michael Pittman and Xing
>> >> Xu. Open access: https://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/7237
>> >
>> > Pandora, why are pennaraptoran theropods uniquely tied to birds, aside from feathers?
>> >
>> >
>> You should probably look at Chapter 1.
>
>Respectfully, I await Pandora's response.

You should probably look at Chapter 1.