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tech / sci.bio.paleontology / Pterosaur wing-body junction

SubjectAuthor
* Pterosaur wing-body junctionPandora
`* Re: Pterosaur wing-body junctionDaud Deden
 `* Re: Pterosaur wing-body junctionPandora
  `* Re: Pterosaur wing-body junctionDaud Deden
   `* Re: Pterosaur wing-body junctionDaud Deden
    `* Re: Pterosaur wing-body junctionDaud Deden
     `* Re: Pterosaur wing-body junctionPandora
      `- Re: Pterosaur wing-body junctionDaud Deden

1
Pterosaur wing-body junction

<rp1umgh0ifl3efv0fhegfce5oi4i03ns3d@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=3672&group=sci.bio.paleontology#3672

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From: pand...@knoware.nl (Pandora)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Pterosaur wing-body junction
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 by: Pandora - Tue, 19 Oct 2021 17:58 UTC

Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.

Abstract

Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
flight anatomy and evolution.

Open access:
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118

Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction

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Subject: Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Thu, 21 Oct 2021 19:06 UTC

On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
> multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
> smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.
>
> Abstract
>
> Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
> million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
> performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
> observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
> pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
> associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
> and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
> primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
> feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
> further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
> their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
> wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
> of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
> flight anatomy and evolution.
>
> Open access:
> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118

Excellent, thanks Pandora. I'm too rushed to read all, but a question. Did it have a long boney tail (thus compressional perching as seen in early pterosaurs, avians & anthropoids), or, did it have tendon-locking toes for upright perching & plucking and tail-lessening as in later pterosaurs, avians and hominoids? I suspect the latter, and expect the soft-tissue fairing indicated very advanced aerodynamic specialization not seen in early species. DD

Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction

<3kl5ngloi1ksr0vht98c71drluccm0eeje@4ax.com>

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From: pand...@knoware.nl (Pandora)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction
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 by: Pandora - Fri, 22 Oct 2021 15:19 UTC

On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:06:22 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
>> Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
>> multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
>> smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.
>>
>> Abstract
>>
>> Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
>> million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
>> performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
>> observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
>> pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
>> associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
>> and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
>> primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
>> feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
>> further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
>> their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
>> wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
>> of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
>> flight anatomy and evolution.
>>
>> Open access:
>> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118
>
>Excellent, thanks Pandora. I'm too rushed to read all, but a question. Did it have a long boney tail
>(thus compressional perching as seen in early pterosaurs, avians & anthropoids), or, did it have
>tendon-locking toes for upright perching & plucking and tail-lessening as in later pterosaurs, avians
>and hominoids? I suspect the latter, and expect the soft-tissue fairing indicated very advanced
>aerodynamic specialization not seen in early species. DD

It's a pterodactyloid, therefore short-tailed.

Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction

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Subject: Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Fri, 22 Oct 2021 16:56 UTC

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:19:45 AM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:06:22 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> >> Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
> >> multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
> >> smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.
> >>
> >> Abstract
> >>
> >> Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
> >> million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
> >> performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
> >> observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
> >> pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
> >> associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
> >> and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
> >> primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
> >> feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
> >> further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
> >> their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
> >> wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
> >> of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
> >> flight anatomy and evolution.
> >>
> >> Open access:
> >> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118
> >
> >Excellent, thanks Pandora. I'm too rushed to read all, but a question. Did it have a long boney tail
> >(thus compressional perching as seen in early pterosaurs, avians & anthropoids), or, did it have
> >tendon-locking toes for upright perching & plucking and tail-lessening as in later pterosaurs, avians
> >and hominoids? I suspect the latter, and expect the soft-tissue fairing indicated very advanced
> >aerodynamic specialization not seen in early species. DD
> It's a pterodactyloid, therefore short-tailed.
Yes, a nimble flying insectivore, comparable to songbirds, swifts, small bats. I wonder if it had derived specialized ears (acoustic, aerodynamic balance) vs more primitive spp.

Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction

<7f8f446e-c471-4f57-bb7f-da2eed7a8989n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:52 UTC

On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 12:56:31 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:19:45 AM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:06:22 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> > >> Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
> > >> multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
> > >> smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.
> > >>
> > >> Abstract
> > >>
> > >> Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
> > >> million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
> > >> performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
> > >> observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
> > >> pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
> > >> associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
> > >> and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
> > >> primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
> > >> feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
> > >> further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
> > >> their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
> > >> wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
> > >> of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
> > >> flight anatomy and evolution.
> > >>
> > >> Open access:
> > >> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118
> > >
> > >Excellent, thanks Pandora. I'm too rushed to read all, but a question. Did it have a long boney tail
> > >(thus compressional perching as seen in early pterosaurs, avians & anthropoids), or, did it have
> > >tendon-locking toes for upright perching & plucking and tail-lessening as in later pterosaurs, avians
> > >and hominoids? I suspect the latter, and expect the soft-tissue fairing indicated very advanced
> > >aerodynamic specialization not seen in early species. DD
> > It's a pterodactyloid, therefore short-tailed.
> Yes, a nimble flying insectivore, comparable to songbirds, swifts, small bats. I wonder if it had derived specialized ears (acoustic, aerodynamic balance) vs more primitive spp.

Did later pterosaurs (eg. toothless tailless Pterodactyls) lay eggs on the ground like early pterosaurs or in arboreal bowl nests? How can that be determined?

Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction

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Subject: Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Thu, 28 Oct 2021 05:20 UTC

On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 4:52:25 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 12:56:31 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:19:45 AM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:06:22 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> > > >> Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
> > > >> multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
> > > >> smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.
> > > >>
> > > >> Abstract
> > > >>
> > > >> Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
> > > >> million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
> > > >> performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
> > > >> observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
> > > >> pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
> > > >> associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
> > > >> and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
> > > >> primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
> > > >> feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
> > > >> further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
> > > >> their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
> > > >> wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
> > > >> of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
> > > >> flight anatomy and evolution.
> > > >>
> > > >> Open access:
> > > >> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118
> > > >
> > > >Excellent, thanks Pandora. I'm too rushed to read all, but a question. Did it have a long boney tail
> > > >(thus compressional perching as seen in early pterosaurs, avians & anthropoids), or, did it have
> > > >tendon-locking toes for upright perching & plucking and tail-lessening as in later pterosaurs, avians
> > > >and hominoids? I suspect the latter, and expect the soft-tissue fairing indicated very advanced
> > > >aerodynamic specialization not seen in early species. DD
> > > It's a pterodactyloid, therefore short-tailed.
> > Yes, a nimble flying insectivore, comparable to songbirds, swifts, small bats. I wonder if it had derived specialized ears (acoustic, aerodynamic balance) vs more primitive spp.
> Did later pterosaurs (eg. reduced teeth tailless climbing Pterodactylus, toothless tailless pterodon) lay eggs on the ground like early pterosaurs penguin-like or in arboreal bowl nests? How can that be determined?
Some sources claim pterosaurs were quadrupedal, some bipedal.

Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction

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From: pand...@knoware.nl (Pandora)
Newsgroups: sci.bio.paleontology
Subject: Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction
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 by: Pandora - Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:10 UTC

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 22:20:33 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 4:52:25 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 12:56:31 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> > On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:19:45 AM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:06:22 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
>> > > >> Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
>> > > >> multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
>> > > >> smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Abstract
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
>> > > >> million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
>> > > >> performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
>> > > >> observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
>> > > >> pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
>> > > >> associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
>> > > >> and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
>> > > >> primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
>> > > >> feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
>> > > >> further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
>> > > >> their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
>> > > >> wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
>> > > >> of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
>> > > >> flight anatomy and evolution.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Open access:
>> > > >> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118
>> > > >
>> > > >Excellent, thanks Pandora. I'm too rushed to read all, but a question. Did it have a long boney tail
>> > > >(thus compressional perching as seen in early pterosaurs, avians & anthropoids), or, did it have
>> > > >tendon-locking toes for upright perching & plucking and tail-lessening as in later pterosaurs, avians
>> > > >and hominoids? I suspect the latter, and expect the soft-tissue fairing indicated very advanced
>> > > >aerodynamic specialization not seen in early species. DD
>> > > It's a pterodactyloid, therefore short-tailed.
>> > Yes, a nimble flying insectivore, comparable to songbirds, swifts, small bats. I wonder if it had derived specialized ears (acoustic, aerodynamic balance) vs more primitive spp.
>> Did later pterosaurs (eg. reduced teeth tailless climbing Pterodactylus, toothless tailless pterodon) lay eggs on the ground like early pterosaurs penguin-like or in arboreal bowl nests? How can that be determined?
>Some sources claim pterosaurs were quadrupedal, some bipedal.

See:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016699520300024

"After two centuries of debate, ichnological arguments have led
today to an almost global consensus on the terrestrial locomotion
of pterodactyloid pterosaurs. When grounded, they were quadrupedal
animals, with plantigrade tetradactyl pes, digitigrade tridactyl
manus, erect parasagittal hindlimbs and more or less sprawled
forelimbs due to the large folded wing digit."

Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction

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Subject: Re: Pterosaur wing-body junction
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:00 UTC

On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 11:10:45 AM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 22:20:33 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 4:52:25 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 12:56:31 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> > On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:19:45 AM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> >> > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:06:22 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> >> > > <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 1:58:24 PM UTC-4, Pandora wrote:
> >> > > >> Pterosaurs evolved a muscular wing–body junction providing
> >> > > >> multifaceted flight performance benefits: Advanced aerodynamic
> >> > > >> smoothing, sophisticated wing root control, and wing force generation.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Abstract
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Pterosaurs were the first vertebrate flyers and lived for over 160
> >> > > >> million years. However, aspects of their flight anatomy and flight
> >> > > >> performance remain unclear. Using laser-stimulated fluorescence, we
> >> > > >> observed direct soft tissue evidence of a wing root fairing in a
> >> > > >> pterosaur, a feature that smooths out the wing–body junction, reducing
> >> > > >> associated drag, as in modern aircraft and flying animals. Unlike bats
> >> > > >> and birds, the pterosaur wing root fairing was unique in being
> >> > > >> primarily made of muscle rather than fur or feathers. As a muscular
> >> > > >> feature, pterosaurs appear to have used their fairing to access
> >> > > >> further flight performance benefits through sophisticated control of
> >> > > >> their wing root and contributions to wing elevation and/or anterior
> >> > > >> wing motion during the flight stroke. This study underscores the value
> >> > > >> of using new instrumentation to fill knowledge gaps in pterosaur
> >> > > >> flight anatomy and evolution.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Open access:
> >> > > >> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/44/e2107631118
> >> > > >
> >> > > >Excellent, thanks Pandora. I'm too rushed to read all, but a question. Did it have a long boney tail
> >> > > >(thus compressional perching as seen in early pterosaurs, avians & anthropoids), or, did it have
> >> > > >tendon-locking toes for upright perching & plucking and tail-lessening as in later pterosaurs, avians
> >> > > >and hominoids? I suspect the latter, and expect the soft-tissue fairing indicated very advanced
> >> > > >aerodynamic specialization not seen in early species. DD
> >> > > It's a pterodactyloid, therefore short-tailed.
> >> > Yes, a nimble flying insectivore, comparable to songbirds, swifts, small bats. I wonder if it had derived specialized ears (acoustic, aerodynamic balance) vs more primitive spp.
> >> Did later pterosaurs (eg. reduced teeth tailless climbing Pterodactylus, toothless tailless pterodon) lay eggs on the ground like early pterosaurs penguin-like or in arboreal bowl nests? How can that be determined?
> >Some sources claim pterosaurs were quadrupedal, some bipedal.
> See:
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016699520300024
>
> "After two centuries of debate, ichnological arguments have led
> today to an almost global consensus on the terrestrial locomotion
> of pterodactyloid pterosaurs. When grounded, they were quadrupedal
> animals, with plantigrade tetradactyl pes, digitigrade tridactyl
> manus, erect parasagittal hindlimbs and more or less sprawled
> forelimbs due to the large folded wing digit."

Thanks. I don't know if they used the same posture/locomotion on tree branches or cliffs, nor if they sometimes went bipedal.
Bats also fly and perch, some hang upside-down by tendon locking their feet, others apparently lock the tendons of all four limbs to cliff faces (head up) or cave ceilings (belly up). Afaik no bats catch prey with their feet raptor-style.
Sloths use tendon lock, perhaps some opposums too, during rest afaict.

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