On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > >> On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >
> > > >>> How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
> > > >>> article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
> > > >>> https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy
> > > >>>
> > > >>> What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
> > > >>> virus that our antibodies are unable to target?
> > > >
> > > >> What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
> > > >> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
> > > > the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
> > > > to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
> > > > major damage to the cells.
> >
> > > Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.
> > Does it *ever* lyse cells?
> > > Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
> > How about telling us where you found out about these things?
> > I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:
> >
> > "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
> > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
> > > And it appears that nobody actually knows
> > > for sure how the virus damages the body.
> > The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
> > as you can see from the main part of the abstract:
> >
> > "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."
> >
> > The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written
> > almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
> > somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:
> >
> > https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
> > "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."
> >
> > This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:
> >
> > "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy
> >
> > Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
> > this haywire immune system response:
> >
> > "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."
> > > Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.
> > It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
> > mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.
> >
> >
> Here's an easy one to read:
>
> "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."
>
> https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx
>
> That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.

I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system". It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves into thinking nothing is wrong.

An obvious point:
"Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full

More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,

"ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."

"Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 12:00:12 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > >> On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >
> > > > >>> How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
> > > > >>> article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
> > > > >>> https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
> > > > >>> virus that our antibodies are unable to target?
> > > > >
> > > > >> What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
> > > > >> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
> > > > > the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
> > > > > to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
> > > > > major damage to the cells.
> > >
> > > > Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.

> > > Does it *ever* lyse cells?

Harshman retracted the word "generally." He knows of no such effect.

> > > > Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
> > > How about telling us where you found out about these things?

Harshman doesn't recall where he read about the cooptation.
He is far less concerned about documenting things than you are.

> > > I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:
> > >
> > > "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
> > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
> > > > And it appears that nobody actually knows
> > > > for sure how the virus damages the body.
> > > The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
> > > as you can see from the main part of the abstract:
> > >
> > > "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."
> > >
> > > The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written
> > > almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
> > > somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:
> > >
> > > https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
> > > "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."
> > >
> > > This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:
> > >
> > > "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy
> > >
> > > Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
> > > this haywire immune system response:
> > >
> > > "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."

> > > > Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.

> > > It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
> > > mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.

> > >
> > >
> > Here's an easy one to read:
> >
> > "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."
> >
> > https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx
> >
> > That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.

Thank you. It is an easy read, but it has a disclaimer about not being peer reviewed. However, hard
data from experiments cannot be lightly taken, and here is something from a linked article
along those lines:

"In fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2 naïve individuals, the antibody levels after 134 days of second vaccination reduced to the levels observed in unvaccinated COVID-19 recovered individuals after 220 days of symptom onset."
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210915/Natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection-induces-more-durable-immunity-than-vaccination.aspx

There is other evidence for the statement in the url. This is in contrast to a lot of what I've been reading
elsewhere, where ONLY antibody levels specifically targeting the spike protein were compared.

> I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system".

You could interpret what he wrote that way, but his "does it" seems more to do with direct
damage by the virus. That was the theme before I reminded him about the indirect effect,
right in the post to which you are replying.

And suddenly, Harshman acts as though he had known about the indirect effect all along,
in his reply to the same post of mine to which you are replying..

> It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves into thinking nothing is wrong.

No, I've interpreted it as having to do with serious direct damage to the cell, but not to the extent
that lysing does, which would destroy the cell outright.
>
>
> An obvious point:
> "Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full
>
> More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,
>
> "ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."
>
> "Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"
>
> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full

Lots of good stuff to delve into. Thanks.

John isn't pulling his weight in this discussion. That's typical of at least 90% of the threads
in which he participates. By the time they end, it's close to 100% of him not bringing
anything useful to the table.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of So. Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 11:38:52 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 12:00:12 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > > On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > > >> On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >>> How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
> > > > > >>> article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
> > > > > >>> https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
> > > > > >>> virus that our antibodies are unable to target?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
> > > > > >> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
> > > > > > the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
> > > > > > to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
> > > > > > major damage to the cells.
> > > >
> > > > > Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.
>
> > > > Does it *ever* lyse cells?
> Harshman retracted the word "generally." He knows of no such effect.
> > > > > Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
> > > > How about telling us where you found out about these things?
> Harshman doesn't recall where he read about the cooptation.
> He is far less concerned about documenting things than you are.
> > > > I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:
> > > >
> > > > "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
> > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
> > > > > And it appears that nobody actually knows
> > > > > for sure how the virus damages the body.
> > > > The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
> > > > as you can see from the main part of the abstract:
> > > >
> > > > "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."
> > > >
> > > > The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written
> > > > almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
> > > > somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:
> > > >
> > > > https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
> > > > "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."
> > > >
> > > > This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:
> > > >
> > > > "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy
> > > >
> > > > Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
> > > > this haywire immune system response:
> > > >
> > > > "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."
>
> > > > > Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.
>
> > > > It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
> > > > mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.
>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Here's an easy one to read:
> > >
> > > "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."
> > >
> > > https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx
> > >
> > > That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.
> Thank you. It is an easy read, but it has a disclaimer about not being peer reviewed. However, hard
> data from experiments cannot be lightly taken, and here is something from a linked article
> along those lines:
>
> "In fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2 naïve individuals, the antibody levels after 134 days of second vaccination reduced to the levels observed in unvaccinated COVID-19 recovered individuals after 220 days of symptom onset."
> https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210915/Natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection-induces-more-durable-immunity-than-vaccination.aspx
>
> There is other evidence for the statement in the url. This is in contrast to a lot of what I've been reading
> elsewhere, where ONLY antibody levels specifically targeting the spike protein were compared.
> > I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system".
> You could interpret what he wrote that way, but his "does it" seems more to do with direct
> damage by the virus. That was the theme before I reminded him about the indirect effect,
> right in the post to which you are replying.
>
> And suddenly, Harshman acts as though he had known about the indirect effect all along,
> in his reply to the same post of mine to which you are replying..
> > It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves into thinking nothing is wrong.
> No, I've interpreted it as having to do with serious direct damage to the cell, but not to the extent
> that lysing does, which would destroy the cell outright.
> >
> >
> > An obvious point:
> > "Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
> > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full
> >
> > More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,
> >
> > "ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."
> >
> > "Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"
> >
> > https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full
> Lots of good stuff to delve into. Thanks.
>
> John isn't pulling his weight in this discussion. That's typical of at least 90% of the threads
> in which he participates. By the time they end, it's close to 100% of him not bringing
> anything useful to the table.
>
What I have observed over the years is that this is typical for most of the evolutionists.
One explanation is that they are actually afraid of scientific literature.
For years I have commented on their lack of support and references, as opposed to my use of them.
The charge of not having a "point" or expressed position on a subject is common among evolutionists, yet it appears what they
really mean is that their opponents do not admit to what they believe their opponents believe.
In this thread you've been targeted as being sided towards the anti-vax crowd that claims COVID is harmless by itself, as have I.
Notice the lack of references to their claims, and the multiple references I have provided, including giving jillery a clue about the
existence of many types of immune cells.
They're afraid that readers will be confused by the literature and not share their opinions and claims.
Propaganda is rampant in evolutionary science.

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 3:52:52 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 11:38:52 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 12:00:12 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > > > On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > > > >> On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > >>> How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
> > > > > > >>> article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
> > > > > > >>> https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
> > > > > > >>> virus that our antibodies are unable to target?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
> > > > > > >> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
> > > > > > > the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
> > > > > > > to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
> > > > > > > major damage to the cells.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.
> >
> > > > > Does it *ever* lyse cells?

> > Harshman retracted the word "generally" in his reply. He knows of no such effect.

> > > > > > Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
> > > > > How about telling us where you found out about these things?
> > Harshman doesn't recall where he read about the cooptation.
> > He is far less concerned about documenting things than you are.
> > > > > I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:
> > > > >
> > > > > "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
> > > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
> > > > > > And it appears that nobody actually knows
> > > > > > for sure how the virus damages the body.
> > > > > The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
> > > > > as you can see from the main part of the abstract:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."
> > > > >
> > > > > The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written
> > > > > almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
> > > > > somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
> > > > > "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells.."
> > > > >
> > > > > This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:
> > > > >
> > > > > "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy
> > > > >
> > > > > Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
> > > > > this haywire immune system response:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."
> >
> > > > > > Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.
> >
> > > > > It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
> > > > > mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Here's an easy one to read:
> > > >
> > > > "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."
> > > >
> > > > https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx
> > > >
> > > > That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.

I haven't yet chased down most of them, and this was the only one so far:

> > Thank you. It is an easy read, but it has a disclaimer about not being peer reviewed. However, hard
> > data from experiments cannot be lightly taken, and here is something from a linked article
> > along those lines:
> > "In fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2 naïve individuals, the antibody levels after 134 days of second vaccination reduced to the levels observed in unvaccinated COVID-19 recovered individuals after 220 days of symptom onset."
> > https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210915/Natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection-induces-more-durable-immunity-than-vaccination.aspx
> >
> > There is other evidence for the statement in the url. This is in contrast to a lot of what I've been reading
> > elsewhere, where ONLY antibody levels specifically targeting the spike protein were compared.

And, come to think of it, they may not have been about such long intervals of time (134 v. 220 days).

> > > I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system".
> > You could interpret what he wrote that way, but his "does it" seems more to do with direct
> > damage by the virus. That was the theme before I reminded him about the indirect effect,
> > right in the post to which you are replying.
> >
> > And suddenly, Harshman acts as though he had known about the indirect effect all along,
> > in his reply to the same post of mine to which you are replying..
> > > It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves into thinking nothing is wrong.
> > No, I've interpreted it as having to do with serious direct damage to the cell, but not to the extent
> > that lysing does, which would destroy the cell outright.
> > >
> > >
> > > An obvious point:
> > > "Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
> > > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full
> > >
> > > More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,
> > >
> > > "ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."
> > >
> > > "Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"
> > >
> > > https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full
> > Lots of good stuff to delve into. Thanks.
> >
> > John isn't pulling his weight in this discussion. That's typical of at least 90% of the threads
> > in which he participates. By the time they end, it's close to 100% of him not bringing
> > anything useful to the table.
> >
> What I have observed over the years is that this is typical for most of the evolutionists.

On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
>> On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>> On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>>>>> Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
>>>>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
>>>>>> Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
>>>>>> everybody knows everything about Jews.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
>>>>> not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
>>>>> mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
>>>>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.
>>>
>>> Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List,"
>>> because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
>>> campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of
>>> actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."
>>>
>>>> I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
>>>> compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
>>>> Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
>>>> of almost all of its indigenous people.
>
> Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
> which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
> made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:

What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?

>
>>> Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
>>> the displacement of peoples.
>
>> Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
>> of the Palestinian people
>
> You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
> many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.

You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the
Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in
displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the
camps in question.

>
>
>> as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
>> been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.
>
> On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,

Because you were and are.

[snip idiocy]

>
>>> Can you point me to a webpage where
>>> it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
>>> are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
>>> resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
>>> and millions of Muslims living in what became India?
>
>> Does that make it any better?
>
> Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular,
> you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:
>
> "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
>
>
>> Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
>> the Apartheid regime in Israel,
>
> There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
> the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,

I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from
pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an
unbiased source on the Holocaust.

[snip mindless Zionist simping]

On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 6:22:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> >> On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> >>>> On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
> >>>>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
> >>>>>> Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
> >>>>>> everybody knows everything about Jews.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
> >>>>> not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
> >>>>> mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
> >>>>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.
> >>>
> >>> Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List,"
> >>> because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
> >>> campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of
> >>> actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."
> >>>
> >>>> I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
> >>>> compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
> >>>> Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
> >>>> of almost all of its indigenous people.
> >
> > Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
> > which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
> > made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:
> What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?
> >
> >>> Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
> >>> the displacement of peoples.
> >
> >> Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
> >> of the Palestinian people
> >
> > You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
> > many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.
> You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the
> Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in
> displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the
> camps in question.
> >
> >
> >> as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
> >> been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.
> >
> > On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,
> Because you were and are.
>
> [snip idiocy]
> >
> >>> Can you point me to a webpage where
> >>> it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
> >>> are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
> >>> resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
> >>> and millions of Muslims living in what became India?
> >
> >> Does that make it any better?
> >
> > Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular,
> > you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:
> >
> > "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
> >
> >
> >> Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
> >> the Apartheid regime in Israel,
> >
> > There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
> > the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,
> I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from
> pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an
> unbiased source on the Holocaust.
>
> [snip mindless Zionist simping]

You don't give a shit about Palestinians.

On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 10:27:48 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
> On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 6:22:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
> > On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> > >> On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
> > >>>> On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > >>>>> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> > >
> > >>>>>> Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
> > >>>>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
> > >>>>>> Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
> > >>>>>> everybody knows everything about Jews.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
> > >>>>> not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
> > >>>>> mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
> > >>>>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.
> > >>>
> > >>> Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List,"
> > >>> because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
> > >>> campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of
> > >>> actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."
> > >>>
> > >>>> I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
> > >>>> compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
> > >>>> Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
> > >>>> of almost all of its indigenous people.
> > >
> > > Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
> > > which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
> > > made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:
> > What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?
> > >
> > >>> Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
> > >>> the displacement of peoples.
> > >
> > >> Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
> > >> of the Palestinian people
> > >
> > > You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
> > > many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.
> > You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the
> > Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in
> > displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the
> > camps in question.
> > >
> > >
> > >> as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
> > >> been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.
> > >
> > > On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,
> > Because you were and are.
> >
> > [snip idiocy]
> > >
> > >>> Can you point me to a webpage where
> > >>> it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
> > >>> are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
> > >>> resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
> > >>> and millions of Muslims living in what became India?
> > >
> > >> Does that make it any better?
> > >
> > > Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular,
> > > you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:
> > >
> > > "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
> > >
> > >
> > >> Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
> > >> the Apartheid regime in Israel,
> > >
> > > There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
> > > the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,

> > I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from
> > pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an
> > unbiased source on the Holocaust.
> >
> > [snip mindless Zionist simping]

What you are seeing is the mindless hate directed at me that this thoroughly unsatisfactory person exhibited almost from the get-go.
He first called himself Thrinaxodon, posting under the byline "Nyikos repellent" for 101 posts,
and then attempted to destroy sci.bio.paleontology with voluminous insanely worded spam, day in and day out.
He even pretended to be Ed Conrad most of the time to make it look like he wasn't the only offender.

But enough of the early "Oxyaena". The interesting thing here is that you, Glenn,
had the last word in this off-topic digression from the subject of vaccination,
and with the following unanswered challenge to boot:

> You don't give a shit about Palestinians.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

It will be interesting to see whether this revival of this thread brings Oxyaena back to it.

But enough about the "new normal" of Oxyaena. I still owe you a thread about
"Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

OTOH, I can spare the time to note that the Merriam-Webster dictionary has finally
updated its long-obsolete definition of "vaccine", which now makes its first meaning the following:

1 : a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vaccine

A detailed and very well written article about the definition change appears here, including the fact that this change appeared in May:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/11/29/vaccine-is-merriam-websters-word-of-the-year-2021/?sh=329fcc525679

My only major objection to the new definition is that this a little too broad:
it ought to say something about how the "preparation" includes some portion of the infectious agent,
and to save all talk about "disease" to later meanings.

A lesser but still important objection: Definition 2 comes far down the line,
after a very wordy bit about various specific examples, etc.

But we should be thankful for these lexicographers not adopting the changes the CDC plays with its definition.
Typically, it was a conservative source that blew the whistle on them:

https://www.citizensjournal.us/the-cdc-suddenly-changes-the-definition-of-vaccine-and-vaccination/

It also bothers me that the Merriam-Webster people took so long to make the change.
The most sensible definition, more sensible than theirs, can be found far down the following webpage:

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vaccine

"A preparation using a non-infectious element or relative of a particular virus or bacteria, and administered with the intention of halting the progress of an infection, or completely preventing it.
Mentioned in: Encephalitis, Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis E, Smallpox
Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved."

Peter Nyikos

On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
disappointing.

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

[in reply to Glenn:]
>>I still owe you a thread about
>>"Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
>>to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

>>But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
>>always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

> I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
> disappointing.

The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.

Peter Nyikos

PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.

On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>
> [in reply to Glenn:]
>>> I still owe you a thread about
>>> "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
>>> to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.
>
>>> But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
>>> always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.
>
>> I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
>> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
>> disappointing.
>
> The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
> are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.
>
> Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.
>
>
> Peter Nyikos
>
> PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
> how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.
>
Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology. Even
ancient viruses are not on topic. Why are you doing this here?

On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 11:57:00 PM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
> On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
> >> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >
> > [in reply to Glenn:]
> >>> I still owe you a thread about
> >>> "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
> >>> to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.
> >
> >>> But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
> >>> always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.
> >
> >> I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
> >> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
> >> disappointing.
> >
> > The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
> > are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.
> >
> > Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.
> >
> >
> > Peter Nyikos
> >
> > PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
> > how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.

John, why do you openly flaunt your hypocrisy with crap like the following?

> Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology.

The thread which you idiotically accuse me of "posting"
has been a long running one, and you've contributed off-topic stuff
to it yourself several times, such as the following, on September 9:
"Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
protein that does it."

Please do not ask me to refrain from doing things that you have quite willingly
done thousands of times in sci.bio.paleontology, especially since you
helped Erik Simpson destroy, early in 2018, the oasis of civilization that the three of
us had made of s.b.p. in 2015.

> Even ancient viruses are not on topic.

Once you see how I treat the topic, you will see that it is intimately
connected with mammalian paleontology.

> Why are you doing this here?

Wrong question. More honest would be,
"Why were you and Glenn talking so negatively about my admirer, Oxyaena?"

That's the real reason you snipped EVERYTHING of the post to which you were replying, isn't it?
You couldn't stand the way it showed that Glenn had the last word against Oxyaena
on a thoroughly off-topic and incendiary subject, could you?

Be that as it may: if you have any insight into your own motivations, ask yourself:

"Why was it worthwhile for me, John Harshman, to so openly show what a hypocrite
I am about off-topic posting?"

Peter Nyikos

On 12/3/21 4:23 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 11:57:00 PM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>
>>> [in reply to Glenn:]
>>>>> I still owe you a thread about
>>>>> "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
>>>>> to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.
>>>
>>>>> But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
>>>>> always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.
>>>
>>>> I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
>>>> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
>>>> disappointing.
>>>
>>> The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
>>> are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.
>>>
>>> Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>
>>> PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
>>> how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.
>
>
> John, why do you openly flaunt your hypocrisy with crap like the following?
>
>> Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology.
>
> The thread which you idiotically accuse me of "posting"
> has been a long running one, and you've contributed off-topic stuff
> to it yourself several times, such as the following, on September 9:

It's been dormant so long that everything except that post had
disappeared from my feed. Why revive it? It shouldn't have been here to
begin with.

> "Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
> coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
> for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
> protein that does it."
>
> Please do not ask me to refrain from doing things that you have quite willingly
> done thousands of times in sci.bio.paleontology, especially since you
> helped Erik Simpson destroy, early in 2018, the oasis of civilization that the three of
> us had made of s.b.p. in 2015.

>> Even ancient viruses are not on topic.
>
> Once you see how I treat the topic, you will see that it is intimately
> connected with mammalian paleontology.

If so, why aren't you doing that rather than all the personal attacks
you're actually indulging in?

>> Why are you doing this here?
>
> Wrong question. More honest would be,
> "Why were you and Glenn talking so negatively about my admirer, Oxyaena?"
>
> That's the real reason you snipped EVERYTHING of the post to which you were replying, isn't it?
> You couldn't stand the way it showed that Glenn had the last word against Oxyaena
> on a thoroughly off-topic and incendiary subject, could you?
>
> Be that as it may: if you have any insight into your own motivations, ask yourself:
>
> "Why was it worthwhile for me, John Harshman, to so openly show what a hypocrite
> I am about off-topic posting?"

Two failed attempts as guessing my motivations. Can't you see how you
are viewing everything through a bizarre worldview of alliances and
cartels? Oxyaena is not my admirer. I don't much care what you say about
Oxyaena, except that it's off-topic. I do care that you attempt to draw
Glenn here, because he contributes only noise. But in future I will
attempt not to respond to off-topic posts. You could try that too.

Harshman, you still don't seem to realize that this thread has been going
since August 30, when Mario Petrinovic did the OP and another post, and you were the
very first new contributor on the same day, and you posted copiously to it for the next few weeks.

More about that below. I will now use an idiom with which Mario may not be familiar,
but I'm sure he has enough street smarts to catch on to how it is used.

You, John Harshman, opened the barn door two posts ago, and let the horse of
your monumental hypocrisy out. You are desperately closing the barn
door with all kinds of diversionary tactics below, but the horse is at large
and you will never catch it as long as I post to sci.bio.paleontology or talk.origins.

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 9:25:26 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
> On 12/3/21 4:23 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 11:57:00 PM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
> >> On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
> >>>> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> >>>
> >>> [in reply to Glenn:]
> >>>>> I still owe you a thread about
> >>>>> "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
> >>>>> to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.
> >>>
> >>>>> But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
> >>>>> always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.
> >>>
> >>>> I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
> >>>> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
> >>>> disappointing.
> >>>
> >>> The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
> >>> are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.
> >>>
> >>> Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Peter Nyikos
> >>>
> >>> PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
> >>> how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.
> >

Here is where I called attention to your opening of the barn door, John:

> > John, why do you openly flaunt your hypocrisy with crap like the following?
> >
> >> Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology.
This would be funny if it weren't so revealing of what a flagrant
"Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrite you are about posting off topic.

> > The thread which you idiotically accuse me of "posting"
> > has been a long running one, and you've contributed off-topic stuff
> > to it yourself several times, such as the following, on September 9:

> It's been dormant so long that everything except that post had
> disappeared from my feed.

You've just given a good reason for truth seekers to avoid
subscribing to your chosen giganews and abandoning Google Groups,
and also explains why a hypocrite like yourself, who does not
like reminders of just HOW hypocritical he is, to choose it over Google Groups.

>Why revive it? It shouldn't have been here to
> begin with.

That's really funny, as though you were admitting that you had made a stupid
mistake by posting copiously to a thread that shouldn't be here.

The one example I gave below was quite innocuous. In stunning contrast, as part of your copious posting,
you accused Mario of being a Nazi and ignored his rebuttal, then announced
that you would no longer talk to him on account of your "diagnosis".

Yes, it was a stupid mistake to post such things. But you sure didn't seem to care when you did it.

> > "Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
> > coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
> > for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
> > protein that does it."
> >
> > Please do not ask me to refrain from doing things that you have quite willingly
> > done thousands of times in sci.bio.paleontology, especially since you
> > helped Erik Simpson destroy, early in 2018, the oasis of civilization that the three of
> > us had made of s.b.p. in 2015.
>
> >> Even ancient viruses are not on topic.
> >
> > Once you see how I treat the topic, you will see that it is intimately
> > connected with mammalian paleontology.

> If so, why aren't you doing that

Because it takes a long time to display all its ramifications; and as I told Glenn,
a few posts ago, this is the busiest week of the semester for me.
It's still preserved in the text at the beginning of this post.

>rather than all the personal attacks
> you're actually indulging in?

What are you calling "personal attacks"? When I catch you in attacks directed
at me, your standard dodge is, "I wasn't attacking, I was just making an observation."

And, unfortunately for you, I have an open and shut case of the statement
that you sugar-coated with "Please" being an expression of a flagrant double standard.
That's more than can be said for most of your "observations."

No wonder your kind doesn't like to be aware of the past history of their misbehavior.

Remainder deleted, to be replied to later.

Sneak preview: it features a diversionary tactic by you that stands alone by itself:
you tried to deflect attention from a question which you dared not try to answer.
That's not much of a spoiler, since you managed to cram quite a lot of mendacity into one paragraph.

Peter Nyikos

On 12/2/2021 7:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 10:27:48 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 6:22:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
>>> On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>> On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>>> On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
>>>>>>>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
>>>>>>>>> Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
>>>>>>>>> everybody knows everything about Jews.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
>>>>>>>> not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
>>>>>>>> mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
>>>>>>>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List,"
>>>>>> because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
>>>>>> campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of
>>>>>> actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
>>>>>>> compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
>>>>>>> Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
>>>>>>> of almost all of its indigenous people.
>>>>
>>>> Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
>>>> which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
>>>> made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:
>>> What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?
>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
>>>>>> the displacement of peoples.
>>>>
>>>>> Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
>>>>> of the Palestinian people
>>>>
>>>> You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
>>>> many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.
>>> You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the
>>> Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in
>>> displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the
>>> camps in question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
>>>>> been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.
>>>>
>>>> On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,
>>> Because you were and are.
>>>
>>> [snip idiocy]
>>>>
>>>>>> Can you point me to a webpage where
>>>>>> it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
>>>>>> are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
>>>>>> resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
>>>>>> and millions of Muslims living in what became India?
>>>>
>>>>> Does that make it any better?
>>>>
>>>> Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular,
>>>> you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:
>>>>
>>>> "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
>>>>> the Apartheid regime in Israel,
>>>>
>>>> There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
>>>> the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,
>
>>> I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from
>>> pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an
>>> unbiased source on the Holocaust.
>>>
>>> [snip mindless Zionist simping]
>
> What you are seeing is the mindless hate directed at me that this thoroughly unsatisfactory person exhibited almost from the get-go.
> He first called himself Thrinaxodon, posting under the byline "Nyikos repellent" for 101 posts,
> and then attempted to destroy sci.bio.paleontology with voluminous insanely worded spam, day in and day out.
> He even pretended to be Ed Conrad most of the time to make it look like he wasn't the only offender.

Agh you transphobic fuck. How many times do I have to tell you NOT to
refer to my by those pronouns?

>
> But enough of the early "Oxyaena". The interesting thing here is that you, Glenn,
> had the last word in this off-topic digression from the subject of vaccination,
> and with the following unanswered challenge to boot:
>
>
>> You don't give a shit about Palestinians.
>
>
> I think you hit the nail on the head.
>
> It will be interesting to see whether this revival of this thread brings Oxyaena back to it.

Given your predilection for reviving zombie threads for the sole purpose
of stirring up as much shit as possible.....

On 12/2/2021 9:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
>
> [in reply to Glenn:]
>>> I still owe you a thread about
>>> "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
>>> to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.
>
>>> But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
>>> always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.
>
>> I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
>> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
>> disappointing.
>
> The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
> are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

Pure projection.