For discussion:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html

My bike still lives.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> For discussion:
>
> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
>
> My bike still lives.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
Deacon Mark

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > For discussion:
> >
> > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> >
> > My bike still lives.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.

A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.

OTOH, discs have taken over. Good luck finding an OTC new-production non-disc bike. Discs are fine, but not worth the additional pad expense or effort for dry-weather riding on aluminum rims. I think there will be some market push-back there. I don't think there is a single rim-brake bike in the Specialized line-up and maybe one in the Trek line-up.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:29:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>For discussion:
>
>https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
>
>My bike still lives.

I don't know about the Shimano Ultegra but, for sure you can buy
aluminum bikes with mechanical shifting and disc brakes in nearly
every "super market" in town.

But then the U.S. is well known for "keeping up with the Jones's", I
believe the more modern term is "socio-economic superiority", which
may, it is said, be a reflection on the peacock spreading his tail to
attract females.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:29:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>For discussion:
>https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
>My bike still lives.

Great job of market research. On the basis of:
I was still shocked this week when I did a bit of
online searching and discovered that, all at once,
this great kind of bike was virtually erased
from existence.
On the basis of "a bit of online searching", an entire class of
bicycle is declared dead by an author in need of writing some
alarming. Perhaps there's an advertising ban on aluminum bicycles for
weekends?

This is about the same as not being able to access a company web site
and then declaring the company to be out of business.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 1:43:18 AM UTC+2, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > For discussion:
> >
> > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> >
> > My bike still lives.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> Deacon Mark

Can you still buy a new car with a carburetor instead of multipoint fuel ejection, with different settings with a push of a button? Sometimes a mechanical solution becomes too complicated. I'm convinced that besides from the market price electric shifting is cheaper than mechanical shifting after the initial/development costs are paid back by the early adapters. Cheaper to produce, cheaper to assemble, cheaper/easier to set up and cheaper to maintain. On my 7 year old Di2 cross bike I never had to adjust the shifting, never had to clean the cables and never had to replaced the cables. Maybe I was lucky but I think it is inherent in the system. Downside is that if something fails in the electronics you can't repair it yourself and have to replace it and that can be expensive. Just like your fuel ejection system of your car, but nobody wants to go back to carburetors except maybe Mr. Muzi. As time came by it became reliable as it is now. I don't think mechanical shifting will disappear but it will become a niche like Ti frames are already for a long time; ridiculous expensive with little added value, but some people like them and don't mind the cost. At a moment it will be not cost effective to keep up to product lines. This applies to the components makers, frame/fork makers, rim makers, hub makers etc. and they will choose what sells best. I think that is happening now with CF versus Al frames and rim brakes versus disc brakes.

Lou

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > For discussion:
> > >
> > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > >
> > > My bike still lives.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.

Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)

Lou

On 8/11/2021 1:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
<snip>
> Can you still buy a new car with a carburetor instead of multipoint fuel ejection, with different settings with a push of a button? Sometimes a mechanical solution becomes too complicated. I'm convinced that besides from the market price electric shifting is cheaper than mechanical shifting after the initial/development costs are paid back by the early adapters. Cheaper to produce, cheaper to assemble, cheaper/easier to set up and cheaper to maintain. On my 7 year old Di2 cross bike I never had to adjust the shifting, never had to clean the cables and never had to replaced the cables. Maybe I was lucky but I think it is inherent in the system. Downside is that if something fails in the electronics you can't repair it yourself and have to replace it and that can be expensive. Just like your fuel ejection system of your car, but nobody wants to go back to carburetors except maybe Mr. Muzi. As time came by it became reliable as it is now. I don't think mechanical shifting will disappear but it will become a niche like Ti frames are already for a long time; ridiculous expensive with little added value, but some people like them and don't mind the cost. At a moment it will be not cost effective to keep up to product lines. This applies to the components makers, frame/fork makers, rim makers, hub makers etc. and they will choose what sells best. I think that is happening now with CF versus Al frames and rim brakes versus disc brakes.
Very true. But often features that cost less to manufacture end up
selling for higher prices as boutique items until some manufacturers
begin including the feature at no extra cost and then everyone else
follows. I doubt if you can buy a car in the U.S. with crank windows
anymore, the cost of the mechanism exceed the cost of switch and a
motor, but power windows used to be an expensive option. It probably
costs more to make a car with a manual transmission than an automatic,
but for a long time automatic transmissions were an extra-cost item. Now
some of the few remaining manual transmission cars have the same price
as their automatic versions.
Aluminum framed bicycles originally cost more than steel until aluminum
frames became mainstream because they were way less expensive both in
material cost and in manufacturing cost, and now steel frames are a
boutique item. Eventually carbon fiber frames will become cheaper than
aluminum frames.

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 3:29:23 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> For discussion:
>
> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
>
> My bike still lives.

My Eddy Merckx Elite isn't dead and doesn't show any signs of getting there either. It is light (19 lbs with no special care taken to make it light. It has heavy aluminum wheels and aluminum bars and stem) and it is one of the better riding bikes I've ridden. Unlike older carbon bikes it steers where you point it and doesn't start wandering around.

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:26:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > For discussion:
> > >
> > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > >
> > > My bike still lives.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
>
> OTOH, discs have taken over. Good luck finding an OTC new-production non-disc bike. Discs are fine, but not worth the additional pad expense or effort for dry-weather riding on aluminum rims. I think there will be some market push-back there. I don't think there is a single rim-brake bike in the Specialized line-up and maybe one in the Trek line-up.
I think that the marketing people for bicycles are going to be in for a very rude awakening as selling racing bikes is going to shortly end to be replaced with sport bikes. When I am passing people in groups up, that is the end of people worrying about being fast, And bikes are now so expensive that it is a major investment and they aren't going to want to pay maintenance bills like for electronic shifting.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:29:41 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > For discussion:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > >
> > > > My bike still lives.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)

You're right; electronic is simpler from the user end and a simple switch is certainly simpler than all the small parts in an STI lever. However, I've never opened the motors on a Di2/eTap RD or FD and assume those are little nightmares, but I don't know. Even when a cable derailleur dies, there is not much you can do about it. Derailleurs are in large part wear items, but long wear for your typical cable derailleur.

What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders.. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.

I never thought of changing a cable as being that difficult or expensive. But for your friends, I think 100 euros is a reasonable price and am willing to offer my services. I'd like to book ten replacements in advance. Then I will fly to Amsterdam for a vacation (one of the few direct international flights from PDX) with some bulk cable. Knock those out before lunch, pocket the 1,000 euros and then go visit the Rijksmuseum.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 1:49:22 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 1:43:18 AM UTC+2, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > For discussion:
> > >
> > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > >
> > > My bike still lives.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > Deacon Mark
> Can you still buy a new car with a carburetor instead of multipoint fuel ejection, with different settings with a push of a button? Sometimes a mechanical solution becomes too complicated. I'm convinced that besides from the market price electric shifting is cheaper than mechanical shifting after the initial/development costs are paid back by the early adapters. Cheaper to produce, cheaper to assemble, cheaper/easier to set up and cheaper to maintain. On my 7 year old Di2 cross bike I never had to adjust the shifting, never had to clean the cables and never had to replaced the cables. Maybe I was lucky but I think it is inherent in the system. Downside is that if something fails in the electronics you can't repair it yourself and have to replace it and that can be expensive. Just like your fuel ejection system of your car, but nobody wants to go back to carburetors except maybe Mr. Muzi. As time came by it became reliable as it is now. I don't think mechanical shifting will disappear but it will become a niche like Ti frames are already for a long time; ridiculous expensive with little added value, but some people like them and don't mind the cost. At a moment it will be not cost effective to keep up to product lines. This applies to the components makers, frame/fork makers, rim makers, hub makers etc. and they will choose what sells best. I think that is happening now with CF versus Al frames and rim brakes versus disc brakes.

When I am trying to sell my Di2 people want me to include the charger. That is how sensitive the market has become here. I replace cables on manual shifters once every five years. That's hardly a reason for electronic shifting. Ultegra manual shifting fits the spot every time. Even 105 is nearly perfect. My new Campy Centaur group is spot on unlike the older Ultra shifters.. There is absolutely no way I would opt for disks or electronic shifting. You have a racing viewpoint that is rapidly disappearing here.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 8:53:01 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:26:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > For discussion:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > >
> > > > My bike still lives.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> >
> > OTOH, discs have taken over. Good luck finding an OTC new-production non-disc bike. Discs are fine, but not worth the additional pad expense or effort for dry-weather riding on aluminum rims. I think there will be some market push-back there. I don't think there is a single rim-brake bike in the Specialized line-up and maybe one in the Trek line-up.
> I think that the marketing people for bicycles are going to be in for a very rude awakening as selling racing bikes is going to shortly end to be replaced with sport bikes. When I am passing people in groups up, that is the end of people worrying about being fast, And bikes are now so expensive that it is a major investment and they aren't going to want to pay maintenance bills like for electronic shifting.

What are your maintenance bills for electronic shifting? Not that I'm sold on electronic shifting, but when you think about it, maintenance costs are a few watts every so often. Do you ever replace batteries on Di2? If so, then that would be a big expense. I know eTap has its little coin-cells that may require replacing. You can spend some serious money on Di2 diagnostic cables if you want shop quality diagnostic capabilities.

My maintenance bills for electronic have been the electricity to recharge the system and the cost of some solder and shrink wrap for when I cut the RD cable accidentally while washing the bike on my wash stand. I pulled the cable into the cassette by mistake. I went out and bought an eTube replacement, but the solder job has been working flawlessly, so I haven't installed the tube.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:29:41 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > For discussion:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > >
> > > > My bike still lives.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)

Actually look inside any of the electronic parts where a static discharge can blow a transistor and render the entire system inoperable and difficult to troubleshoot. Race mechanics have a shelf of parts so they can interchange parts to find the problem. I see electronic shifting as like tubeless tires - a popular item that soon proves not worthwhile.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:01:05 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:29:41 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > For discussion:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > > >
> > > > > My bike still lives.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> > Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)
> You're right; electronic is simpler from the user end and a simple switch is certainly simpler than all the small parts in an STI lever. However, I've never opened the motors on a Di2/eTap RD or FD and assume those are little nightmares, but I don't know. Even when a cable derailleur dies, there is not much you can do about it. Derailleurs are in large part wear items, but long wear for your typical cable derailleur.

Di2 RD and FD derailleurs are very simple. I still have to open the Di2 RD that I crashed into the spokes. I have a new Dremel tool now. Wait for a rainy day.

>
> What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.

Selling price is something different than cost price. Selling price is as high as the consumer is willing to pay. I assure you that Di2 is cheap to produce.

>
> I never thought of changing a cable as being that difficult or expensive. But for your friends, I think 100 euros is a reasonable price and am willing to offer my services. I'd like to book ten replacements in advance. Then I will fly to Amsterdam for a vacation (one of the few direct international flights from PDX) with some bulk cable. Knock those out before lunch, pocket the 1,000 euros and then go visit the Rijksmuseum.

You are welcome. Can I do the bookings? Fun aside what do you think is a reasonable price the replace all the wires at a LBS that want to make a living? Removing bar tape, new bar tape and and taping included. Minimum wage is 10 euro/hr for adults. LBS employees are way above minimum wage.

Lou

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 9:01:05 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:29:41 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > For discussion:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > > >
> > > > > My bike still lives.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> > Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)
> You're right; electronic is simpler from the user end and a simple switch is certainly simpler than all the small parts in an STI lever. However, I've never opened the motors on a Di2/eTap RD or FD and assume those are little nightmares, but I don't know. Even when a cable derailleur dies, there is not much you can do about it. Derailleurs are in large part wear items, but long wear for your typical cable derailleur.
>
> What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.
>
> I never thought of changing a cable as being that difficult or expensive. But for your friends, I think 100 euros is a reasonable price and am willing to offer my services. I'd like to book ten replacements in advance. Then I will fly to Amsterdam for a vacation (one of the few direct international flights from PDX) with some bulk cable. Knock those out before lunch, pocket the 1,000 euros and then go visit the Rijksmuseum.
Each of those parts contain a microprocessor and assorted drive electronics.. I am surprised as hell that they don't have problems more than they do. These sorts of circuits are now so small that they are prone to static electricity damage. So they have to take great care with their construction. The wireless SRAM parts in particular are a failure waiting to happen.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 9:18:14 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:01:05 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:29:41 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > For discussion:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My bike still lives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead.. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > > > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> > > Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)
> > You're right; electronic is simpler from the user end and a simple switch is certainly simpler than all the small parts in an STI lever. However, I've never opened the motors on a Di2/eTap RD or FD and assume those are little nightmares, but I don't know. Even when a cable derailleur dies, there is not much you can do about it. Derailleurs are in large part wear items, but long wear for your typical cable derailleur.
> Di2 RD and FD derailleurs are very simple. I still have to open the Di2 RD that I crashed into the spokes. I have a new Dremel tool now. Wait for a rainy day.
> >
> > What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.
> Selling price is something different than cost price. Selling price is as high as the consumer is willing to pay. I assure you that Di2 is cheap to produce.
> >
> > I never thought of changing a cable as being that difficult or expensive. But for your friends, I think 100 euros is a reasonable price and am willing to offer my services. I'd like to book ten replacements in advance. Then I will fly to Amsterdam for a vacation (one of the few direct international flights from PDX) with some bulk cable. Knock those out before lunch, pocket the 1,000 euros and then go visit the Rijksmuseum.
> You are welcome. Can I do the bookings? Fun aside what do you think is a reasonable price the replace all the wires at a LBS that want to make a living? Removing bar tape, new bar tape and and taping included. Minimum wage is 10 euro/hr for adults. LBS employees are way above minimum wage.

I am now very slow and I completely assembled the new Centaur 11 speed in one day except for bar tape. If I took a job doing it, it would take perhaps a week until it would all take only an hour.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:20:06 PM UTC+2, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 9:01:05 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:29:41 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > For discussion:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My bike still lives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead.. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > > > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> > > Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)
> > You're right; electronic is simpler from the user end and a simple switch is certainly simpler than all the small parts in an STI lever. However, I've never opened the motors on a Di2/eTap RD or FD and assume those are little nightmares, but I don't know. Even when a cable derailleur dies, there is not much you can do about it. Derailleurs are in large part wear items, but long wear for your typical cable derailleur.
> >
> > What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.
> >
> > I never thought of changing a cable as being that difficult or expensive. But for your friends, I think 100 euros is a reasonable price and am willing to offer my services. I'd like to book ten replacements in advance. Then I will fly to Amsterdam for a vacation (one of the few direct international flights from PDX) with some bulk cable. Knock those out before lunch, pocket the 1,000 euros and then go visit the Rijksmuseum.
> Each of those parts contain a microprocessor and assorted drive electronics. I am surprised as hell that they don't have problems more than they do. These sorts of circuits are now so small that they are prone to static electricity damage. So they have to take great care with their construction. The wireless SRAM parts in particular are a failure waiting to happen.

Do you worry about your PC or cell phone or any other electronic device? There are design rules for that you know. At work we went through that learning curve 30 years ago.

Lou

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 9:24:29 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:20:06 PM UTC+2, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 9:01:05 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:29:41 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > For discussion:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My bike still lives.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > > The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
> > > > > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange. I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> > > > Look inside a mechanical shifter and still think if it is simple; number of parts and assembly. Changing cables simple? Half of my riding buddies find it too complicated and wait too long before they let the LBS do it for 100 euro. My brother brings his bikes to me, the bastard ;-)
> > > You're right; electronic is simpler from the user end and a simple switch is certainly simpler than all the small parts in an STI lever. However, I've never opened the motors on a Di2/eTap RD or FD and assume those are little nightmares, but I don't know. Even when a cable derailleur dies, there is not much you can do about it. Derailleurs are in large part wear items, but long wear for your typical cable derailleur.
> > >
> > > What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.
> > >
> > > I never thought of changing a cable as being that difficult or expensive. But for your friends, I think 100 euros is a reasonable price and am willing to offer my services. I'd like to book ten replacements in advance. Then I will fly to Amsterdam for a vacation (one of the few direct international flights from PDX) with some bulk cable. Knock those out before lunch, pocket the 1,000 euros and then go visit the Rijksmuseum.
> > Each of those parts contain a microprocessor and assorted drive electronics. I am surprised as hell that they don't have problems more than they do. These sorts of circuits are now so small that they are prone to static electricity damage. So they have to take great care with their construction. The wireless SRAM parts in particular are a failure waiting to happen.
> Do you worry about your PC or cell phone or any other electronic device? There are design rules for that you know. At work we went through that learning curve 30 years ago.

For the Di2 there is a chance of static discharge. If you look at these derailleurs you can see areas of metal entering the areas of the circuitry. For the wireless, these things can EASILY be effected by either static discharge or any radio signal in the frequency band of the device. We SAW failures that showed these sorts of problems in the Tour. There is a reason that every day they have a completely rebuilt bike.

jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> For discussion:
>>>
>>> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
>>>
>>> My bike still lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We
>> ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and
>> maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry
>> about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't
>> count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting
>> and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother
>> too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been
>> riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about
>> much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine
>> and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is
>> not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and
>> shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work.
>
> A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for
> electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it
> taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange.
> I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.

I would tend to agree.
>
> OTOH, discs have taken over. Good luck finding an OTC new-production
> non-disc bike. Discs are fine, but not worth the additional pad expense
> or effort for dry-weather riding on aluminum rims. I think there will be
> some market push-back there. I don't think there is a single rim-brake
> bike in the Specialized line-up and maybe one in the Trek line-up.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>
Not sure why the bar the home mechanic who maybe doesn’t want to work on
hydraulics there is likely to be any push back? Lots of cyclists do no
servicing at all a fair number can’t change inner tubes, so for them brakes
that need no adjustment as it will self adjust until it needs a pad change
which is frankly easier undo bolt/spit pin take old ones in, slide new in
and your done no adjustment needed.

Roger Merriman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:04:48 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-7, deaconm...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 5:29:23 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> For discussion:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html
> >>>
> >>> My bike still lives.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >> The marketing world in bikes seems to have forgotten the real riders. We
> >> ride many miles and require things to be relatively simple to fix and
> >> maintain. Unless one is in some mountainous country and have to worry
> >> about blowing tubes or riding in the rain all the time, I guess we don't
> >> count. I don't ride in the rain mostly because it usually means lighting
> >> and that I am scared shit of for sure. Raining only that does not bother
> >> too much but stopping on a dime may not be the same, adjust. I have been
> >> riding about 300-380 miles a week lately. I don't have to worry about
> >> much to keep up the mechanical shifting is great. The wheels spin fine
> >> and frankly from what I can see I am serious cyclist but marketing is
> >> not out for me in any targets. I have Ti but otherwise my rim brakes and
> >> shifters are far from dead. I have never had to charge them up to work..
> >
> > A lot of the modern stuff is plug-and-play, but I'm not dying for
> > electronic on all of my bikes -- and unlike the author, I don't see it
> > taking over the entire market. The top-end, yes -- but not the midrange..
> > I think mechanical will be around for a long time because of price and simplicity.
> I would tend to agree.
> >
> > OTOH, discs have taken over. Good luck finding an OTC new-production
> > non-disc bike. Discs are fine, but not worth the additional pad expense
> > or effort for dry-weather riding on aluminum rims. I think there will be
> > some market push-back there. I don't think there is a single rim-brake
> > bike in the Specialized line-up and maybe one in the Trek line-up.
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> Not sure why the bar the home mechanic who maybe doesn’t want to work on
> hydraulics there is likely to be any push back? Lots of cyclists do no
> servicing at all a fair number can’t change inner tubes, so for them brakes
> that need no adjustment as it will self adjust until it needs a pad change
> which is frankly easier undo bolt/spit pin take old ones in, slide new in
> and your done no adjustment needed.

I found it easy to bleed the Shimano and completed the job in 1 hour for both levers. But the flat bar Avid brakes took me TWO days to figure out. And I think that part of that was that the levers had to sit open and allow the air to slowly bleed out of them by themselves. I understand that Avid was sold to SRAM and improved, but I wouldn't want to go through that again for anything.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:40:59 PM UTC+2, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> For the Di2 there is a chance of static discharge. If you look at these derailleurs you can see areas of metal entering the areas of the circuitry. For the wireless, these things can EASILY be effected by either static discharge or any radio signal in the frequency band of the device. We SAW failures that showed these sorts of problems in the Tour. There is a reason that every day they have a completely rebuilt bike.

What does a complete rebuild do for static (dis) charge? So every rider (8 riders per team in the TdF) gets a completely rebuild bike every day? No way. Every bike gets pressure washed, dried, lubed and checked every day. Every 2 or 3 days they get a new chain and cassette. I know that because I watched them doing it.

Lou

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 08:28:15 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/11/2021 1:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Can you still buy a new car with a carburetor instead of multipoint fuel ejection, with different settings with a push of a button? Sometimes a mechanical solution becomes too complicated. I'm convinced that besides from the market price electric shifting is cheaper than mechanical shifting after the initial/development costs are paid back by the early adapters. Cheaper to produce, cheaper to assemble, cheaper/easier to set up and cheaper to maintain. On my 7 year old Di2 cross bike I never had to adjust the shifting, never had to clean the cables and never had to replaced the cables. Maybe I was lucky but I think it is inherent in the system. Downside is that if something fails in the electronics you can't repair it yourself and have to replace it and that can be expensive. Just like your fuel ejection system of your car, but nobody wants to go back to carburetors except maybe Mr. Muzi. As time came by it became reliable as it is now. I don't think mechanical shifting will
>disappear but it will become a niche like Ti frames are already for a long time; ridiculous expensive with little added value, but some people like them and don't mind the cost. At a moment it will be not cost effective to keep up to product lines. This applies to the components makers, frame/fork makers, rim makers, hub makers etc. and they will choose what sells best. I think that is happening now with CF versus Al frames and rim brakes versus disc brakes.
>
>Very true. But often features that cost less to manufacture end up
>selling for higher prices as boutique items until some manufacturers
>begin including the feature at no extra cost and then everyone else
>follows. I doubt if you can buy a car in the U.S. with crank windows
>anymore, the cost of the mechanism exceed the cost of switch and a
>motor, but power windows used to be an expensive option. It probably
>costs more to make a car with a manual transmission than an automatic,
>but for a long time automatic transmissions were an extra-cost item. Now
>some of the few remaining manual transmission cars have the same price
>as their automatic versions.
>
>Aluminum framed bicycles originally cost more than steel until aluminum
>frames became mainstream because they were way less expensive both in
>material cost and in manufacturing cost, and now steel frames are a
>boutique item. Eventually carbon fiber frames will become cheaper than
>aluminum frames.

I recently read an article about using carbon fiber in autos and it
was stated that the cost of carbon fiber, itself, was $8.00 a pound
and to my knowledge epoxy resin/hardener is cheaper then that and the
ratio of resin to fiber is not 1::1., It would appear that carbon
fiber bicycles "could" be much cheaper to make then aluminum.

Will we one day see cheap carbon fiber bikes for sale in supermarkets?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/11/2021 12:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.

The "no charging" part is perhaps undersold. Yes, I know that people say
they charge only once in a few months. But if a person rides a
particular bike only once in a few months, and if the battery's
self-discharge rate is very great, that may mean waiting to charge the
battery before most rides. Seems like a disincentive to me.

I'm reminded of way, way back when our department bought the first VERY
fancy electronic micrometer for our measurements lab. Wow! Digital
display! And you could set a new zero point using gage blocks, then
quickly get very accurate differences from that value!

Except it got used only once a year in a particular lab class, and
apparently some instructors skipped that exercise, so it sat unused even
longer. A few years later we found the batteries had corroded contacts
to the point that it was practically unrepairable.

Now if the derailleur is powered by a hub dynamo...

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 4:22:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/11/2021 12:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > What I think may not be reality, but my intuition is that electronic shifting will have to get really cheap before it trickles down to the mid-fi market. Cable derailleurs are cheap and low maintenance for low-mileage riders. No charging; the derailleurs can take a beating and a slightly bent hanger doesn't make much difference.
> The "no charging" part is perhaps undersold. Yes, I know that people say
> they charge only once in a few months. But if a person rides a
> particular bike only once in a few months, and if the battery's
> self-discharge rate is very great, that may mean waiting to charge the
> battery before most rides. Seems like a disincentive to me.
>
> I'm reminded of way, way back when our department bought the first VERY
> fancy electronic micrometer for our measurements lab. Wow! Digital
> display! And you could set a new zero point using gage blocks, then
> quickly get very accurate differences from that value!
>
> Except it got used only once a year in a particular lab class, and
> apparently some instructors skipped that exercise, so it sat unused even
> longer. A few years later we found the batteries had corroded contacts
> to the point that it was practically unrepairable.
>
> Now if the derailleur is powered by a hub dynamo...

Or a bottle dynamo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MAkl8tEsnA&ab_channel=CreepyAlanRides

The downside of electronic is not that down, but then again, the upside is not that up compared to modern cable shifters. It's probably a wash, although changing cables in a modern internal routing bike can be a PITA.

Its the new Victorian era of cables. Cables cannot be exposed to view for fear of arousing sexual desires. You must hide your cables, sometimes at great effort. We should just acknowledged and celebrated our cables -- like the good old days of grasshopper antenna brake cables. https://www.renehersecycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/1980_rando_34_front.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.